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Message no. 1
From: Glenn Sprott wasntka44@*********.net
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:01:57 -0500
I have a question to throw at all of you about riggers and the drones
that love them... ;-)

I have a player that wants to play a rigger only for the fact that he
can buy a lot of drones and use them to do all the "dirty work" when
on a run. He's talking about several drones of different sizes,
shape, mode of transportation, and weapon payloads so that he can have
one "for any situation," as he puts it.

Again, I don't know if it's just me or not, but this just seems...
cheesy. I mean, he wants a bunch of drones for a number of different
reasons...

1: Low threat to his character. He could get killed, but as far as I
know, he's pretty safe barring a killer backlash from one his drones
getting geeked or someone finding his physical location.

2: Firepower: Controlling several drones at once each armed with as
much as they can carry seems a little extreme to me... munchkinism
maybe?

3: Tactical situations. Considering the speed and agility of some of
these drones, he could easily outflank any opposing opponent (outside
of other drones) as they would not be able to move as fast.

4: Did I mention firepower coupled with speed and agility with little
threat to his character?

Now, I know I could simply keep blasting his drones to pieces, but
they aren't that expensive... are they? I'm not sure... Anyway, he
will just keep building more and more unless I find a way to challenge
him and his character without leaving the rest of his team (and my
players) outmatched and outgunned.

Any ideas or suggestions on how to handle this besides just telling
him, "NO!" I haven't read the rules on rigging real closely even
though I love the archtype. Are there new rules to govern this kind
of situation? ECM and stuff like that?

---------------------------
Wasntka (Wolf)
...Never allow your family to get hurt...
...Never allow your friends to stand alone...
...Never betray your loved one...
...Never betray yourself...
Message no. 2
From: Yiannakos Yiannako@*******.edu
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 18:34:36 -0500
From: "Glenn Sprott" <wasntka44@*********.net>

> Now, I know I could simply keep blasting his drones to pieces, but
> they aren't that expensive... are they? I'm not sure... Anyway, he
> will just keep building more and more unless I find a way to challenge
> him and his character without leaving the rest of his team (and my
> players) outmatched and outgunned.
>
> Any ideas or suggestions on how to handle this besides just telling
> him, "NO!" I haven't read the rules on rigging real closely even
> though I love the archtype. Are there new rules to govern this kind
> of situation? ECM and stuff like that?
>
> ---------------------------
> Wasntka (Wolf)

I love riggers as well, but I'm just learning the rules for them. First and
foremost, if you keep blasting his drones to pieces, that's going to hurt
him as well. (1) Drones are expensive, especially those with lots of
firepower, and constantly having to replace them would call for an
incredible amount of money. (2) If I remember, riggers take damage when
their drones or vehicles are damaged. Kind of like a decker taking dump
shock, being jumped into a drone that's blown up can be traumatic to a
rigger. If you want to keep a lid on how many drones he owns, (and many
riggers do own large numbers of drones) play up the cost and especially the
maintenance cost of keeping them running, fueled and repaired after runs. A
rigger having several different drones for several different purposes is
pretty much the norm. Sure it could be munchkinized (anything can be by
someone who tries hard enough) but many drones do not a munchkin make.

Hope this helps,

---Dave ('s not here man)
The Newbie Rigger (just got RBB from Ebay yesterday!)
Message no. 3
From: Jinx jinx@*******.com
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 17:38:19 -0600
At 05:01 PM 3/24/00, you wrote:
>I have a question to throw at all of you about riggers and the drones
>that love them... ;-)
>
>I have a player that wants to play a rigger only for the fact that he
>can buy a lot of drones and use them to do all the "dirty work" when
>on a run. He's talking about several drones of different sizes,
>shape, mode of transportation, and weapon payloads so that he can have
>one "for any situation," as he puts it.
>
>Again, I don't know if it's just me or not, but this just seems...
>cheesy. I mean, he wants a bunch of drones for a number of different
>reasons...
>
>1: Low threat to his character. He could get killed, but as far as I
>know, he's pretty safe barring a killer backlash from one his drones
>getting geeked or someone finding his physical location.
>
>2: Firepower: Controlling several drones at once each armed with as
>much as they can carry seems a little extreme to me... munchkinism
>maybe?
>
>3: Tactical situations. Considering the speed and agility of some of
>these drones, he could easily outflank any opposing opponent (outside
>of other drones) as they would not be able to move as fast.
>
>4: Did I mention firepower coupled with speed and agility with little
>threat to his character?
>
>Now, I know I could simply keep blasting his drones to pieces, but
>they aren't that expensive... are they? I'm not sure... Anyway, he
>will just keep building more and more unless I find a way to challenge
>him and his character without leaving the rest of his team (and my
>players) outmatched and outgunned.
>
>Any ideas or suggestions on how to handle this besides just telling
>him, "NO!" I haven't read the rules on rigging real closely even
>though I love the archtype. Are there new rules to govern this kind
>of situation? ECM and stuff like that?
>
>---------------------------
>Wasntka (Wolf)
>...Never allow your family to get hurt...
>...Never allow your friends to stand alone...
>...Never betray your loved one...
>...Never betray yourself...

Drone riggers are like that - in fact, I had a sammy who turned into a
rigger so that she could make better use of her drones. That's sort of the
point of a drone rigger - to have all the toys and stay at the back. To
keep it from getting out of hand, come up with situations where he can't
use the drones very effectively. I woulnd't recommend doing it ALL the
time, but occasionally. It's part of the fun to be able to find some way in
which the drones could help. There will still be times when a flying drone
isn't appropriate and the rigger has to go in himself because he's the only
one with the know-how to get the job done, or because the drones would be a
give-away of their activity, or similar kinds of things. Also, if you
REALLY don't want the drones in a particular run, have a lot of electrical
interference or something to disrupt his controls, or maybe have a few of
them taken out to start with, and have the deadline for the run too soon
for him to replace them. Or you can have another rigger steal control (I
forget the rules for this, but if I remember correctly, it is possible) and
turn the drones against the team once. Like I said, I don't think that
should become a habit, but it's possible if it's really getting out of control.

I don't personally think that drones are munchkin-y. They can't do
everything, and they are easily interfered with if the opposition is on the
lookout for them. There's still going to be a need for real people to go in
and out on a run, and if you play it right, the drones will just be backup
for the rest of the team, rather than taking over their jobs.

Jinx

http://www.redrival.com/jmenning/roleplaying/sr.html
Message no. 4
From: Steve Mancini mancini@******.com
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 15:56:02 -0800 (PST)
Just before returning to the GM seat, I was playing a Rigger named
'Mother' - a male ork (anyone guess the reference? *smile*)

Anyhoots, here are my thoughts.

> 1: Low threat to his character. He could get killed, but as far as I
> know, he's pretty safe barring a killer backlash from one his drones
> getting geeked or someone finding his physical location.

Low threat to start. Then once the opposition centers in on
where the machines are being controlled from, LAW rocket his
seat of control...

Otherwise - it can be 1 box of stunt per drone taken down -
if he sends an arsenal of drones at you and you rip them to
shreds - he is going to be having issues.

Overall, yes - it is far safer if you play a smart remote rigger
than if you are exposed and in the firefight. But that only goes
so far.

> 2: Firepower: Controlling several drones at once each armed with as
> much as they can carry seems a little extreme to me... munchkinism
> maybe?

He can control a fixed amount based on his decking ports -
that is his 'Subscriber List' - unless you unleash god-ugly
decks into your game, he cannot have this walking militia.
Can he own a sh*tload? Yes.. control them all on a whim,
not likely.

ECM - really makes life uncomfortable. If you do not FULLY
understand rigger combat and how the ECM/ECCM/etc stuff
works, don't let him in with this!

Storage - how is he transporting this walking arsenal? Most
drones that hold reasonable firepower are NOT small - unless
you have laxed the rules in your city/world - an armed drone
following a truck WILL gather attention by the Civil authorities.
What is the load of his transport vehicle? How well it is
protected? What is it's signature for the opponents to spot
the source of their misery?

Deployment - some drones take TIME to deploy - he cannot just
*poof* have em in the scene. They also require Drone racks -
which have the drones in a bottleneck situation. Sure, some
planning on his part will allow him to get there early and
send drones out - but what about if the sh*t hits the fan?
Recalling a large contingency of drones is not easy.

Also - read the SIGNATURES of these drones. How many does he
have around? He could tip the hands of the opponents BEFORE
the rest of the team is on site or ready to go! Intelligence
checks to spot this thing making a WHRRRR noise are not too
difficult..

In the case of a recall/retreat - imagine that.. low signature
drones all filing in back to some transport vehicle.. my mind
tends to think.. LAW rocket.. and imagining the drones like
tracer rounds which leave a trail..

> 3: Tactical situations. Considering the speed and agility of some of
> these drones, he could easily outflank any opposing opponent (outside
> of other drones) as they would not be able to move as fast.

Not really - not unless he packs serious pilots in these drones
or something - he can only Captain's Chair mode them (the pilot
issue surfaces), or he has to take what I call sentient control
of a drone - which is 1 drone. Read the pilot levels - combat
situations are not clear cut - dodging, manuevering, etc - the
terrain and targets are not clearly defined and fixed - one
bad pilot/sensors check.. and someone could be killing his own
people.

> 4: Did I mention firepower coupled with speed and agility with little
> threat to his character?

Yep - did you mention to him the idea of a MIJI attack?
BEFORE you let a rigger in - understand MIJI.
One counter decker and he is fubar - what is his FLUX rating
when doing this? Flux makes him GLOW to other technical
sensors - sensors can be used target him remotely or identify
the source.

> Now, I know I could simply keep blasting his drones to pieces, but
> they aren't that expensive... are they? I'm not sure... Anyway, he
> will just keep building more and more unless I find a way to challenge
> him and his character without leaving the rest of his team (and my
> players) outmatched and outgunned.

Ye know.. this is sorta a rhetorical question --
Why play with people like this? They obviously are not in it
for the Spirit of roleplay - just get this guy the Nintendo
shadowrun game and send him off to his corner.



Da Minotaur
Troll Republic Party in '88
Message no. 5
From: Augustus shadowrun@*********.net
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2000 16:03:41 -0800
----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn Sprott <wasntka44@*********.net>
To: Shadowrun Post <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Friday, March 24, 2000 3:01 PM
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question


> I have a question to throw at all of you about riggers and the
drones
> that love them... ;-)
>
> 1: Low threat to his character. He could get killed, but as far as
I
> know, he's pretty safe barring a killer backlash from one his drones
> getting geeked or someone finding his physical location.
>

Had a player that took this route... he sat in the party van every
mission and instead sent in a couple of drones in his stead.

I was able to get him to participate by having some of the corporate
sites jamming transmissions around them.
(my explanation was to keep drones away/out, but also to keep people
inside from using private transmission methods to steal corporate
secrets... the corporation could transmit themselves by keeping their
transmitters outisde of the field (either in another nearby building
or a large antenna/tower on the roof))

But with some of the tiny drones from the R2 book... I'd figure
there'd have to be something like this... otherwise wouldn't all the
corporations just keep sending droves and droves of drones (the tiny
ones, that is) at their rivals?

just my thoughts..

Aug
Message no. 6
From: Thanatos grendel@**********.dt1.sdca.home.com
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 01:37:55 -0800 (PST)
On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, Steve Mancini wrote:

> Low threat to start. Then once the opposition centers in on
> where the machines are being controlled from, LAW rocket his
> seat of control...

It's fairly difficult to hit a rigged vehicle with an unguided rocket
unless the vehicle is standing still. Also, if he echoes his commands
from a low flux command van to a higher flux mobile transmitter, you're
going to be targeting the wrong thing.

>
> Otherwise - it can be 1 box of stunt per drone taken down -
> if he sends an arsenal of drones at you and you rip them to
> shreds - he is going to be having issues.

If a rigger is jumped into a drone when it is destroyed, he suffers dump
shock, which is the following:

1. disorientation for 10 combat turns
2. +2 to all success test for those ten turns
3. resist (deck rating +4)S stun damage


> He can control a fixed amount based on his decking ports -
> that is his 'Subscriber List' - unless you unleash god-ugly
> decks into your game, he cannot have this walking militia.
> Can he own a sh*tload? Yes.. control them all on a whim,
> not likely.

Actually, with a rating 3 deck couple with three MCT rotodrones loading
LMGs you can lay down an awful lot of fire, and none of these items is
particularly difficult to acquire. Additionally, all drones can act in
concert with one another, obeying a single command issued by a rigger.

>
> Storage - how is he transporting this walking arsenal? Most
> drones that hold reasonable firepower are NOT small - unless
> you have laxed the rules in your city/world - an armed drone
> following a truck WILL gather attention by the Civil authorities.
> What is the load of his transport vehicle? How well it is
> protected? What is it's signature for the opponents to spot
> the source of their misery?

body 2 drones, which constitute most of the combat drones in shadowrun,
vary in size from small to large motorcycles, easily concealed and
transported in the cargo areas of Roadmasters, Land Rovers, and Bison.

>
> Deployment - some drones take TIME to deploy - he cannot just
> *poof* have em in the scene. They also require Drone racks -
> which have the drones in a bottleneck situation. Sure, some
> planning on his part will allow him to get there early and
> send drones out - but what about if the sh*t hits the fan?
> Recalling a large contingency of drones is not easy.

Setup/breakdown time refers only to the length of time required to go from
a powered down, broken down status to fully ready for action. A drone
already idling can be ready to roll on a moment's notice.

>
> Also - read the SIGNATURES of these drones. How many does he
> have around? He could tip the hands of the opponents BEFORE
> the rest of the team is on site or ready to go! Intelligence
> checks to spot this thing making a WHRRRR noise are not too
> difficult..

Signatures aren't cumulative or layered, usually only the lowest of a
group will apply. Also, if the drones are being transported by a vehicle
only that vehicles signature is important. And only if you're playing
with the optional footprint rule does the flux of a vehicle affect its
signature.

> Yep - did you mention to him the idea of a MIJI attack?
> BEFORE you let a rigger in - understand MIJI.
> One counter decker and he is fubar - what is his FLUX rating
> when doing this? Flux makes him GLOW to other technical
> sensors - sensors can be used target him remotely or identify
> the source.

Actually, it's very difficult for a decker to successfully conduct MIJI
against a rigger. It's much more effective for a direct rigger to rigger
face off.

>
> Ye know.. this is sorta a rhetorical question --
> Why play with people like this? They obviously are not in it
> for the Spirit of roleplay - just get this guy the Nintendo
> shadowrun game and send him off to his corner.
>

The effective use of a drone rigger is an essential tactical part of every
shadowrun team. To not utilize every tool available to you to
successfully complete a mission is foolishness. It is incumbent upon a
gamemaster to understand the strengths and weaknesses of a rigger and to
exploit those weaknesses when necessary/possible while instructing a
player on how best to maximize his/her strengths.

Grendel

-------------------------------------------------------------------

The essence of life is struggle and its goal
is domination. There are higher goals and
deeper meanings, but they exist only within
the mind of man. The reality of life is war.

-- The Way and The Power
Lovret
Message no. 7
From: Iridios iridios@*****.com
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 07:43:42 -0500
Thanatos wrote:
>
> On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, Steve Mancini wrote:
>
> > Low threat to start. Then once the opposition centers in on
> > where the machines are being controlled from, LAW rocket his
> > seat of control...
>
> It's fairly difficult to hit a rigged vehicle with an unguided rocket
> unless the vehicle is standing still. Also, if he echoes his commands
> from a low flux command van to a higher flux mobile transmitter, you're
> going to be targeting the wrong thing.

If a rocket takes out the riggers high power relay, then the rigger is
cut off from his drones. Same effect.

--
Iridios
"Accept what you cannot avoid,
Avoid what you cannot accept."
Message no. 8
From: Simon Fuller sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 09:37:31 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Thanatos <grendel@**********.dt1.sdca.home.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Saturday, March 25, 2000 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: Riggers and Drones Question


>>
>> Also - read the SIGNATURES of these drones. How many does he
>> have around? He could tip the hands of the opponents BEFORE
>> the rest of the team is on site or ready to go! Intelligence
>> checks to spot this thing making a WHRRRR noise are not too
>> difficult..
>
>Signatures aren't cumulative or layered, usually only the lowest of a
>group will apply. Also, if the drones are being transported by a vehicle
>only that vehicles signature is important. And only if you're playing
>with the optional footprint rule does the flux of a vehicle affect its
>signature.
>
>Grendel
>
I don't know about that. I mean it may be the rules, but two annoying Harley
Davidsons tuned deliberately badly to draw attention to fat bikers with
dirty beards sound a lot louder than one annoying Harley Davidson tuned
deliberately badly to draw attention to a fat biker with a dirty beard.
Maybe not twice as loud, as it would be if it were cumulative, but the
signature should be higher.
Message no. 9
From: Thanatos grendel@**********.dt1.sdca.home.com
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 17:42:31 -0800 (PST)
On Sun, 26 Mar 2000, Simon Fuller wrote:

> >Signatures aren't cumulative or layered, usually only the lowest of a
> >group will apply. Also, if the drones are being transported by a vehicle
> >only that vehicles signature is important. And only if you're playing
> >with the optional footprint rule does the flux of a vehicle affect its
> >signature.
> >
> >Grendel
> >
> I don't know about that. I mean it may be the rules, but two annoying Harley
> Davidsons tuned deliberately badly to draw attention to fat bikers with
> dirty beards sound a lot louder than one annoying Harley Davidson tuned
> deliberately badly to draw attention to a fat biker with a dirty beard.
> Maybe not twice as loud, as it would be if it were cumulative, but the
> signature should be higher.

That's true in most respects, but signature is a conglomeration of
visual/aural/EM detection. You can break it down if you like to and if it
suits your game to do so. Sometimes it's even required if you have a
vehicle with increased thermal signature but decreased radar signature. I
would hesitate to give any aural bonuses, though, as in an urban
environment acoustics can make it difficult to determine the direction
from which the sound originated in. Of course, cyberware or more advanced
scanners can increase the likelihood of a successful determination.

Grendel

-------------------------------------------------------------------

The essence of life is struggle and its goal
is domination. There are higher goals and
deeper meanings, but they exist only within
the mind of man. The reality of life is war.

-- The Way and The Power
Lovret
Message no. 10
From: Grim Shear grim_shear@*******.com
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 22:10:34 CST
"Glenn Sprott" <wasntka44@*********.net> said:
<snip>
>1: Low threat to his character. He could get killed, but as far as I
>know, he's pretty safe barring a killer backlash from one his drones
>getting geeked or someone finding his physical location.

>2: Firepower: Controlling several drones at once each armed with as much
>as they can carry seems a little extreme to me... munchkinism maybe?

>3: Tactical situations. Considering the speed and agility of some of
>these drones, he could easily outflank any opposing opponent (outside of
>other drones) as they would not be able to move as fast.
>Now, I know I could simply keep blasting his drones to pieces, but they
>aren't that expensive... are they? I'm not sure... Anyway, he will just
>keep building more and more unless I find a way to challenge him and his
>character without leaving the rest of his team (and my players) outmatched
>and outgunned.
>Any ideas or suggestions on how to handle this besides just telling
>him, "NO!" I haven't read the rules on rigging real closely even
>though I love the archtype. Are there new rules to govern this kind
>of situation? ECM and stuff like that?


My favorite topic!

1)Low threat? Kind of. If a Rigger gets dumped, then he'll be out of it for
a while. I also seem to remember something about a gang that HATES Riggers.
They run around and when they find where the rigger is, they shock whatever
he's rigging. Lobotomy(sp?)

2)Fire power can be an issue... BUT! If the rigger isn't in direct control,
the drone must make a sensor test to see if it can find the target (rolls #
of dice equal to it's sensor rating. TN 6 for most meta's). It then rolls
it's pilot rating plus half its sensor rating to see if it can actually HIT
the target.
A drone on its own doesn't shoot very well (unless some fairly serious
money has been poured in).

3)Tactical situations. The drones are again the limiting factor. If you
have access to Rigger 2, check the Body/Size table (page 23). Most drones
fit in the Toaster size (small, minimal carrying capacity), or Motorcycle
size. If its a rotorcraft, the rotors are likely a lot bigger. Feel free to
pile on the target number modifiers if your player takes most drones inside.

To counter a rigger. Get a BIG jammer. Or have some ECM to attack the
system channel of the simsense feed. Riggers hate it when their drones stop
doing what they're told.

Or have another Rigger who has dedicated himself to being the biggest pain
in the hoop around. A rigger, equipped like the character, but specializing
more into electronic warefare.

Grim Shear
"Have fun kids, this won't last long."
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 11
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 12:56:58 -0700
Glenn Sprott wrote:
>I have a question to throw at all of you about riggers and the drones
>that love them... ;-)
>
>I have a player that wants to play a rigger only for the fact that he
>can buy a lot of drones and use them to do all the "dirty work" when
>on a run. He's talking about several drones of different sizes,
>shape, mode of transportation, and weapon payloads so that he can have
>one "for any situation," as he puts it.
>
>Again, I don't know if it's just me or not, but this just seems...
>cheesy. I mean, he wants a bunch of drones for a number of different
>reasons...
>
>1: Low threat to his character. He could get killed, but as far as I
>know, he's pretty safe barring a killer backlash from one his drones
>getting geeked or someone finding his physical location.

Good reason for using drones. However, the downside is that if the
opposition has a good tracking system they can trace the radio signals of
his control deck to him. Communications to his drones can also be jammed,
or in a worst case scenario, someone could take control of his drones.

Also, he is limited to battery power. A security team guarding/defending a
building is going to have access to the power grid. If they have ECM and
they realize he has drones, his drones aren't going to last very long and
there isn't anything he can do about it.

>2: Firepower: Controlling several drones at once each armed with as
>much as they can carry seems a little extreme to me... munchkinism
>maybe?

Lone Star (and other law enforcement agencies) does not appreciate the use
of extreme force. Also, once the cork has been pulled the rigger can't put
the genie back in the bottle. I.e., if those drones open up with extreme
force, it will be answered in kind and subtlety goes out the window.

It's a funny thing, for every action there is an equal and opposite
reaction. Munchkinism pretty much takes care of itself :)

>3: Tactical situations. Considering the speed and agility of some of
>these drones, he could easily outflank any opposing opponent (outside
>of other drones) as they would not be able to move as fast.

Yes.

>4: Did I mention firepower coupled with speed and agility with little
>threat to his character?

Yes :)

Here's a simple axiom: The more toys you have, the more liability you
have. This applies to anything, but it's especially true when shadowrunning.

Take the runner who's only "toy" is an Ares Predator heavy pistol, with an
extra clip of ammo. This runner knows his limitations (we hope) and is
going to think his way out of the box.

Take the runner with all of the toys. He's likely overconfident, or
afraid, or lazy. He'll usually bite off more than he can chew. And when
presented with a problem he'll start looking to his toys before he looks to
himself.

>Now, I know I could simply keep blasting his drones to pieces, but
>they aren't that expensive... are they? I'm not sure... Anyway, he
>will just keep building more and more unless I find a way to challenge
>him and his character without leaving the rest of his team (and my
>players) outmatched and outgunned.

The player is being lazy to a certain extent. I don't suggest trying to
challenge him by challenging his toys. Challenge him by challenging him
with good roleplaying and adventures that require thought and
roleplaying. He wants his toys to do the work for him. Don't present him
with situations where he can use his toys.

>Any ideas or suggestions on how to handle this besides just telling
>him, "NO!"

See the above :) Also, let him know that the one with the most toys has
the most liability.

FWIW, I don't allow players to make rigger characters that use drones. I
honestly don't want to deal with drones. I want players to use their
brains, and I don't want to get bogged down by more rules.

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"All things are at all times, in motion. Take the time to watch the dance."
-John Caeser Leafston
Message no. 12
From: Richard Gaywood r.gaywood@**********.com
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 21:24:32 -0000
Graht wrote:
> Lone Star (and other law enforcement agencies) does not appreciate the use
> of extreme force. Also, once the cork has been pulled the rigger can't
put
> the genie back in the bottle. I.e., if those drones open up with extreme
> force, it will be answered in kind and subtlety goes out the window.

Very good point. A quick flick through Rigger 2 tells us that sensors above
level 4 are sec-grade, as is ECM and ECCM. This stuff is (a) expensive and
(b) hard to get, but stick any drone without them in an urban combat zone
and opposing riggers will eat 'em alive. Running around with a rotordrones
with twin LMGs and sec-grade kit is likely to attract all sorts of the wrong
attention.

Also, you could restrict the supply of these precious components to make the
rigger sweat about the safety of his drones everytime he launches one. Make
him go on runs just to get the contacts/components he needs. Make him
basically spend lots of time and effort keeping the drones running - not so
much as to put him off totally, just enough to make him value them as
something more than toys.

> Here's a simple axiom: The more toys you have, the more liability you
> have. This applies to anything, but it's especially true when
shadowrunning.

Fair enough.

> Take the runner who's only "toy" is an Ares Predator heavy pistol, with an
> extra clip of ammo. This runner knows his limitations (we hope) and is
> going to think his way out of the box.

Well, either that or he'll soon be in a box ;o)

> The player is being lazy to a certain extent. I don't suggest trying to
> challenge him by challenging his toys. Challenge him by challenging him
> with good roleplaying and adventures that require thought and
> roleplaying. He wants his toys to do the work for him. Don't present him
> with situations where he can use his toys.

Well, yes, *to a certain extent*. But this player clearly wants to use
drones, and maybe it's not laziness but just something he's genuinely
interested in. Grossly restricting what he can do with his characters is
likely to piss him off unless you can justify it *really* well (I'm talking
from [too much] experience here...) On the other hand, when your players
latch on to something, rolling with them and giving them some of what they
want can produce much more memorable runs.

> FWIW, I don't allow players to make rigger characters that use drones. I
> honestly don't want to deal with drones. I want players to use their
> brains, and I don't want to get bogged down by more rules.

Yeah, but that's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I run *very*
rules light, but I still allow runners to use as many cool toys as they
want. I just make most of it up as I go along. Course, YMMV.

Slightly off topic, but as an ex-1st&2nd edition player I think that the
splitting up of the classic rigger into drone, vehicle, building etc.
variants was a cool thing for FASA to do. It refocuses what was becoming a
rather fuzzy character concept, and building riggers are just *way* too
cool...

Even more off topic, I only recently got my SR books out of storage and
whilst getting Rigger2 out a few minutes ago it suddenly hit me that, piled
up, they're just short of 17" tall! I should really get out more...

-=R=-
http://www.clmconsulting.co.uk
ICQ: 66545073
UT ngStats: RichBeard
Message no. 13
From: Yiannakos Yiannako@*******.edu
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:10:23 -0500
From: <dbuehrer@******.carl.org>

> FWIW, I don't allow players to make rigger characters that use drones. I
> honestly don't want to deal with drones. I want players to use their
> brains, and I don't want to get bogged down by more rules.
>
> To Life,
> -Graht

I guess this is probably a <RANT>

I gotta say, every time I hear something like this, it annoys me a
little bit more. Please believe me, I'm not trying to tell you how to run
your games, but where does the line get drawn for not allowing players to
play certain character classes, especially for the reason that you don't
want to deal with the rules for that class? I can partially understand if
the decision is made in the interest of game session balance (if the decking
or rigging or whatever is sucking up all the game time and noone else gets
anything done) but to do it because you don't want to deal with the rules,
to me seems like cutting out some very important aspects of the game. I see
a lot of people disallow deckers, and now drone riggers, in their games, and
I wonder what's next? "No magicians because I really don't have time to deal
with the magic rules", "No vehicle riggers because the car chase/combat
rules are too confusing", "No street sammies because it's too tough keeping
track of 30+ initiative rolls". Where is the line. Rather than see entire
character classes disallowed, I would sooner see GMs do what my GM did in
this situation: If I want to play, for example, a rigger, I, the player,
need to know the rigger rules forward, backward and sideways. That way he
can concentrate on storyline and plot, and let me worry about when I can and
can't use control pool and what the modifiers are. The same with deckers,
and really any other character with a specialized rule set. Or alternatively
you could fiddle with the rules until you come up with something that you
like. For example, the uber-simplified decking rules that were posted here a
while back. That way the player still gets to play the character class that
intrigues him (or her), and the GM isn't buried under a pile of numbers. I
don't like excessively complex rules any more than you do, but I'd rather
see the rules changed to something economical, than entire character types
removed from the game.

</RANT>

I hope I wasn't really out of line writing this, and I don't want to
piss anybody off. Everyone is welcome to disagree.

---Dave ('s not here man)
Message no. 14
From: Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 17:54:42 -0500 (EST)
Excerpts from ShadowRN: 27-Mar-100 Re: Riggers and Drones Ques.. by
"Yiannakos"@*******.edu
> From: <dbuehrer@******.carl.org>
>
> > FWIW, I don't allow players to make rigger characters that use drones. I
> > honestly don't want to deal with drones. I want players to use their
> > brains, and I don't want to get bogged down by more rules.

Graht, what would you say to a character like this, which is our
most popular "rigger" capability: A guy with a datajack but no VCR, an
RCD, and some recon drones (Condors, Snoopers, and microcams with some
blu-tack)? It's pretty nice to have that capability in the group, and
I'm curious.

> I guess this is probably a <RANT>
<SNIP>
</SNIP>
> </RANT>
>
> I hope I wasn't really out of line writing this, and I don't want to
> piss anybody off. Everyone is welcome to disagree.

I've noticed that when a character "class" gets banned, it's usually
because it's been tried once, or at least thought through pretty
carefully. When the situation is explained to the players, there's
usually little complaint. Usually, most of them are in favor of it,
with an ambivalent minority.
I do sympathize though. Speaking of banning stuff, I've been in
campaigns where I feel bad for the non-mages, because the majority of
the legwork/recon happens in astral space. What are you going to do
though, ban astral space? The usual solution was to incorporate recon
drones into the recon, and have a couple of people on the scene. If you
couldn't blend into the surroundings, you lost. (You were also usually
a combat monster who didn't mind anyways.)

Mark
Message no. 15
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:04:38 -0500
> From: <dbuehrer@******.carl.org>
>
> > FWIW, I don't allow players to make rigger characters that use drones. I
> > honestly don't want to deal with drones. I want players to use their
> > brains, and I don't want to get bogged down by more rules.
>

But using drones IS using your brain. I once wanted to make a quadreplegic (sp?)
character who's also blind. ( To compensate, he used drones. He had a
Professor-X type hover chair (basically. It moved on wheels, so it didn't hover.
But he never left it) which he rigged which had sensors and cameras which would
transfer the images into his brain. Because he wasn't a big help to the team
(couldn't rig a car because he was rigged into his chair), I had to use drones
to give him some offensive punch. Imagine 4 drones swarming around this chair
each armed with autocannons :0.

> >
> > To Life,
> > -Graht

<SNIP>

--
--Strago

In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder,
bloodshed - they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance.
In Switzerland they had brotherly
love, five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they produce? The
cuckoo clock!
-Orson Welles

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+)
gm+ M P
Message no. 16
From: Yiannakos Yiannako@*******.edu
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 18:58:11 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark A Shieh" <SHODAN+@***.EDU>

> I've noticed that when a character "class" gets banned, it's usually
> because it's been tried once, or at least thought through pretty
> carefully. When the situation is explained to the players, there's
> usually little complaint. Usually, most of them are in favor of it,
> with an ambivalent minority.
> I do sympathize though. Speaking of banning stuff, I've been in
> campaigns where I feel bad for the non-mages, because the majority of
> the legwork/recon happens in astral space. What are you going to do
> though, ban astral space? The usual solution was to incorporate recon
> drones into the recon, and have a couple of people on the scene. If you
> couldn't blend into the surroundings, you lost. (You were also usually
> a combat monster who didn't mind anyways.)
>
> Mark

I see your point, and of course, just like everything else in a game, this
should be dependant on how the group feels about it. I just don't like to
see the precedent set for saying, "no you can't play that because I don't
want to deal with the rules." I'd prefer to see the rules changed to where
you don't mind dealing with them.

---Dave ('s not here man)
Message no. 17
From: Malaegoth@***.com Malaegoth@***.com
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 23:30:30 EST
In a message dated 3/27/00 4:08:51 PM CST, Yiannako@*******.edu writes:

<<
I gotta say, every time I hear something like this, it annoys me a
little bit more. Please believe me, I'm not trying to tell you how to run
your games, but where does the line get drawn for not allowing players to
play certain character classes, especially for the reason that you don't
want to deal with the rules for that class? I can partially understand if
the decision is made in the interest of game session balance (if the decking
or rigging or whatever is sucking up all the game time and noone else gets
anything done) but to do it because you don't want to deal with the rules,
to me seems like cutting out some very important aspects of the game. I see
a lot of people disallow deckers, and now drone riggers, in their games, and
I wonder what's next? "No magicians because I really don't have time to deal
with the magic rules", "No vehicle riggers because the car chase/combat
rules are too confusing", "No street sammies because it's too tough keeping
track of 30+ initiative rolls". Where is the line. Rather than see entire
character classes disallowed, I would sooner see GMs do what my GM did in
this situation: If I want to play, for example, a rigger, I, the player,
need to know the rigger rules forward, backward and sideways. That way he
can concentrate on storyline and plot, and let me worry about when I can and
can't use control pool and what the modifiers are. The same with deckers,
and really any other character with a specialized rule set. Or alternatively
you could fiddle with the rules until you come up with something that you
like. For example, the uber-simplified decking rules that were posted here a
while back. That way the player still gets to play the character class that
intrigues him (or her), and the GM isn't buried under a pile of numbers. I
don't like excessively complex rules any more than you do, but I'd rather
see the rules changed to something economical, than entire character types
removed from the game.
>>

I also hate when GMs restrict things from chargen just because he doesn't
want to deal with that. Last night, for a Shadowrun game, I submitted a
Physical Mage, never having read anything about how absurdly powerful they
are. I did it specifically to fulfill a concept, but wasn't allowed to play
it because of the potential for abuse. I feel that the only time you should
restrict something is when someone starts trying to abuse it. We have a
drone rigger in my game, and he isn't very abusive at all. He saved our life
once with Rotodrones that had heavy pistols on them. He doesn't go around
with a pair of Vanquisher miniguns on everything he owns, an Ingram Valiant
being the highest caliber weapon he has. If you have a problem with your
characters whoring out their character too much, then do the two things my gm
is doing. Starting characters must, with few exceptions, be created entirely
out of the Main rulebook, with no equipment higher than availability 6. One
or two exceptions were made for certain pcs, but for the most part, it
simplified the game and gives the gm more control.
Message no. 18
From: M. Sean Martinez sr_bandit@*******.com
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 01:56:03 EST
Greetings!!

>Just before returning to the GM seat, I was playing a Rigger named
>'Mother' - a male ork (anyone guess the reference? *smile*)

LOL!! Gotta love the Sneakers movie for all the shadowrunning ideas it would
give you :)

-Bandit
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 19
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:40:44 -0700
Richard Gaywood wrote:
>Graht wrote:
>
> > FWIW, I don't allow players to make rigger characters that use drones. I
> > honestly don't want to deal with drones. I want players to use their
> > brains, and I don't want to get bogged down by more rules.
>
>Yeah, but that's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I run *very*
>rules light, but I still allow runners to use as many cool toys as they
>want. I just make most of it up as I go along. Course, YMMV.

My mileage has varied :)

I have yet to have a positive experience with respect to PC riggers. Here
are some of the typical scenarios.

The rigger sends in his heavily armed drones (light or heavy machine guns,
or grenade launcher, or sniper rifle, or a combination, etc.) with the
team. When the team encounters guards the rigger/drone opens up the can of
wupass instead of relying on stealth and smart talking. Soon the entire
site is on red alert and it turns into a raging fire fight. And the other
PCs are screwed because the guards have to bring out the heavy weapons to
deal with the drones, and any flesh and meat PC that comes out of hiding is
toast. So, the drones sweep through the site leaving a trail of death and
destruction while the rest of the PC hunker down and wait it out (and the
players sit around for an hour or two while the GM and the player with the
rigger do combat).

In the above instance the other players become bored and a little
resentful/jealous. They react either by arming themselves to the teeth so
they can keep up with the drones (in which case they're stepping out of the
shadows and becoming mercenaries and I find myself running a game for
powergamers, which is not something I want to do with Shadowrun), or the
battle cry becomes, "Send in the drones first!" and we might as well be
playing BattleTech instead of Shadowrun.

And then there was the one time when the Rigger was tired of sitting in the
van all the time and decided to ride one of his drones (a tracked drone)
and go into the site with the rest of the PCs. As usual, he reacted to
conflict with force. The NPCs fought back, shot the rigger and knocked him
out. The rest of the PCs suddenly found themselves without any support and
under heavy fire. It was not pretty.

Also, I like to use the tried and true James Bond Villian tactic of
capturing the PCs and bringing them back to the villian's hideout so he can
pump up his ego by revealing his plans before putting them into a death
trap. If there's a rigger with Drones, it's very, very hard to do this. I
point heavy weapons at the PCs and expect them to surrender. They say,
"Hah, we have drones," and proceed to try and fight their way out of the
situation.

Some asked about scout drones. If a player said he wanted to make a rigger
with *just* scout drones I would try it (never been done in any Shadowrun
game I've played or GMed) to see what it's like.

And lastly, it's not so much a matter of not wanting to deal with drones,
but a significant amount of antipathy towards the vehicle combat rules (no
offense Jon). I do not like them at all. However, I do allow vehicle
riggers (the one who drives the get away car/helicopter/boat/etc.).

There's more, but I currently have a significant amount of antihistamine in
my system and can't remember.

And finally, this is how I run it in my game, and the players are perfectly
happy with it. If you and your group have drone riggers and it works, more
power to you. In fact, I'm envious.

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday ... and all is well."
Message no. 20
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:48:37 -0700
Mark A Shieh wrote:
>Excerpts from ShadowRN: 27-Mar-100 Re: Riggers and Drones Ques.. by
>"Yiannakos"@*******.edu
> > From: <dbuehrer@******.carl.org>
> >
> > > FWIW, I don't allow players to make rigger characters that use drones. I
> > > honestly don't want to deal with drones. I want players to use their
> > > brains, and I don't want to get bogged down by more rules.
>
> Graht, what would you say to a character like this, which is our
>most popular "rigger" capability: A guy with a datajack but no VCR, an
>RCD, and some recon drones (Condors, Snoopers, and microcams with some
>blu-tack)? It's pretty nice to have that capability in the group, and
>I'm curious.

I would like to see it, and see how it works. This is more in the spirit
of Shadowrunning, IMHO.

And that's basically what it comes down to. IMHO shadowrunning means being
subtle and staying in the shadows. Armed drones are not subtle IMHO.

> I've noticed that when a character "class" gets banned, it's usually
>because it's been tried once, or at least thought through pretty
>carefully. When the situation is explained to the players, there's
>usually little complaint. Usually, most of them are in favor of it,
>with an ambivalent minority.

That's pretty much the case in this instance.

> I do sympathize though. Speaking of banning stuff, I've been in
>campaigns where I feel bad for the non-mages, because the majority of
>the legwork/recon happens in astral space. What are you going to do
>though, ban astral space? The usual solution was to incorporate recon
>drones into the recon, and have a couple of people on the scene. If you
>couldn't blend into the surroundings, you lost. (You were also usually
>a combat monster who didn't mind anyways.)

Yep. However, with astral space it's easy to place, and justify,
challenging magical security. It's pretty easy for a shaman on the site to
summon hearth spirits to guard the site from astral space. It's fairly
easy for a mage to summon elementals. And astral barriers are an
effective, yet relatively simple means of security.

Typical security is about as effective as wet tissue vs armed drones. If
the PCs use drones then they will get hired for jobs that require drones,
and everything becomes focused on combat, in my experience. I don't want
to run Shadowrun campaigns like that.

Anyway, everything is IMHO and up for discussion.

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Warm nights, good food, kindred spirits....great life!"
Message no. 21
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 07:57:36 -0700
Strago wrote:
> > From: <dbuehrer@******.carl.org>
> >
> > > FWIW, I don't allow players to make rigger characters that use drones. I
> > > honestly don't want to deal with drones. I want players to use their
> > > brains, and I don't want to get bogged down by more rules.
> >
>
>But using drones IS using your brain.

Sorry, my bad, I wasn't specific enough. What I meant is that using drones
doesn't really require the use of roleplaying, and in fact pretty much
tosses it out the window. If the rigger sends in a drone his options are
pretty much limited to combat tactics. If a Sam goes in he can try to
roleplay an encounter with guards, "Hi. Say, I'm supposed to me my brother
in the computer department. He just got a raise and we're going out after
he gets off work to celebrate. Yes I know it's 2:00 am in the
morning. You know those techies. They have to work all night. So how do
I get to the computer department? I'm on the wrong floor? Aw geez, I'm
sorry. I couldn't remember exactly which floor he was on. The computers
are on the 12th floor you say? Oh yeah, I remember now. Well, I better
get out of here then <grin>. Have a nice night fellas."

>Imagine 4 drones swarming around this chair
>each armed with autocannons :0.

I'm trying hard not to :) This is not something that I would want to see
in my Shadowrun campaign. But that's just me :)

Hmm... might be neat for a villian though...

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"All things are at all times, in motion. Take the time to watch the dance."
-John Caeser Leafston
Message no. 22
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:52:13 EST
In a message dated 3/28/00 9:42:01 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
dbuehrer@******.carl.org writes:

<Snip!!!>
> And finally, this is how I run it in my game, and the players are
perfectly
> happy with it. If you and your group have drone riggers and it works,
more
> power to you. In fact, I'm envious.

Damn David, that makes me feel bad. We have EXCELLENT encounters with
Riggers, but then we also have good (usually) operations with Deckers as
well. I don't know, I have usually found that the Rigger relies upon the
Decker and the Mage as much as anyone else.

In our games (Sunday), the rigger (Brandi's character Tank) has a couple of
drones but is always on the look-out for more. She normally operates from
her hovertruck or her Tilt-wing, depending on where we are at so she can pull
the extra flux from the vehicle to her remote deck operations. Her drones
are kind of odd. Let me see if I can remember these right.

Condor: As normal, this is the "recon drone" for the group. She has placed a
Tool Laser on it however in order to help out in some sticky situations we
get into (such as cutting a fence or a power line in the right place). She
rarely uses it as a "weapon", but don't think she won't try if cornered.

Rotordrone: This is the big combat machine for her as far as her drones go.
It's got an assault rifle equivalent, again with a Tool Laser. She's been
working on having the drone as close to "interchangable" as possible, using
an idea similar to the weapons pods introduced in the Corporate Security
Handbook.

Skimmers, at least two of these. The one of them she's modified for load
bearing and outfitted it with a "rack" of sorts on the top. She's been known
to actually sit on it and ride it around (her dwarf is probably under 3 feet
tall, and not heavily built so she relies on this). The one has had the
"safety skirt" removed on it, and placed a self-winding monowire modification
done to it. She uses this function when either we are trying to get through
a badly overcrowded situation or when she's engaging other drones with it.

A mage in the party put quickened illusions of a "seeing eye dog, leash
included" on one of them, and a "french poodle, complete with leash" on the

other. This way she can move about with them in lightly crowded
environments. We were working on reverse engineering the anthroform arms
(downgrading the strength so as to reduce their weight) and putting them on
the condor drone, then put an illusion of someone "walking the dog", so she
could keep the drones in relative close contact with each other.

The "Big Guns" of the party are actually the Street Samurai (Nordic Troll
with an HMG), the Adept (who likes ranged attacks) and the two magicians
(Reflex and Balthasar). She's our way out of situations and reconnaissance.
We're her defensive line and infiltration stuff.

We found that simply by using the "expense account controls" that are already
in place in the game, we can keep everything else down to a dull roar.
Please note, that she DOES have the Ares Dragon Portable Missile system, on a
pivot rack mount that sits either in the back of the truck or the back of the
plane. If anything is chasing us, we open the door and let them see it.
Usually that is enough to scare off most targets. I don't think we've every
actually *NEEDED* to fire it yet.

Besides, those were as hard to get hold of as the plane was.

I personally feel pretty bad that many groups out there seem to have problems
with Deckers and Riggers both so often. We have found them to be very
important and very much a desired part of the overall integration. Wish I
had some real suggestions on how to help other groups do this and have fun
exploring these possibilities as well.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
Message no. 23
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:41:04 -0700
HHackerH@***.com wrote:
>In a message dated 3/28/00 9:42:01 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>dbuehrer@******.carl.org writes:
>
><Snip!!!>
> > And finally, this is how I run it in my game, and the players are
>perfectly
> > happy with it. If you and your group have drone riggers and it works,
>more
> > power to you. In fact, I'm envious.
>
>Damn David, that makes me feel bad.

Please, don't feel bad for me and my group. We still have plenty of fun
without riggers :)

>I personally feel pretty bad that many groups out there seem to have problems
>with Deckers and Riggers both so often. We have found them to be very
>important and very much a desired part of the overall integration. Wish I
>had some real suggestions on how to help other groups do this and have fun
>exploring these possibilities as well.

Would you please write up a Guide to Playing Riggers and put it on HH?

For that matter, guides for the other stereotypes would probably be a good
idea too.

Not that I want to make you any busier than you are ;)

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"What you are doing at the moment must be exactly what
you are doing at the moment--and nothing else."
Message no. 24
From: Yiannakos Yiannako@*******.edu
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:02:01 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: <dbuehrer@******.carl.org>

> I have yet to have a positive experience with respect to PC riggers. Here
> are some of the typical scenarios.
>
> The rigger sends in his heavily armed drones (light or heavy machine guns,
> or grenade launcher, or sniper rifle, or a combination, etc.) with the
> team. When the team encounters guards the rigger/drone opens up the can
of
> wupass instead of relying on stealth and smart talking. Soon the entire
> site is on red alert and it turns into a raging fire fight.

I guess your player and I have differing views on drone rigging. If I was to
make a drone rigger, the first (and maybe second) drone he would buy would
be a Condor or something similar. He would probably have _an_ armed drone,
but probably not a rotodrone w/ miniguns. (Most of my starting characters
couldn't afford one anyway...) Maybe you're right, this player shouldn't
play DRiggers, if that's going to be his tactic. Who's to say that he won't
do the same thing as a Sammie though?

Also with the rules problem: (and yes it is a problem. I sat down with R2
read it all the way through and got a headache) Have you had any ideas on
"slimming down" or simplifying the rules to make it more efficient?

I can see where your mileage has varied, anyway.

---Dave ('s not here man)
Message no. 25
From: Yiannakos Yiannako@*******.edu
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:05:56 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: <HHackerH@***.com>

<SNIP Rigger Descriptions>

Damn, that's cool. That's why I love 'em. Thanks for the ideas!

---Dave ('s not here man)
Message no. 26
From: Ron Clark rclark@****.net
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:01:48 -0600
At 10:52 AM 3/28/00 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 3/28/00 9:42:01 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>dbuehrer@******.carl.org writes:
>
><Snip!!!>
>> And finally, this is how I run it in my game, and the players are
>perfectly
>> happy with it. If you and your group have drone riggers and it works,
>more
>> power to you. In fact, I'm envious.
>
>Damn David, that makes me feel bad. We have EXCELLENT encounters with
>Riggers, but then we also have good (usually) operations with Deckers as
>well. I don't know, I have usually found that the Rigger relies upon the
>Decker and the Mage as much as anyone else.
>
<<snip>>

I have had good encounters with drones as well. Two events stand out in my
head at the moment.

The first, my team had been hired to be a bodyguard for some hotshot at a
fancy party out in the middle of nowhere. Two members of the team got
dressed up and went inside while the other two started surveillance (one of
course was a rigger). The rigger set up a roving parimeter with 3 drones,
one was armed, and the other two were just there for the eyes. Anyway the
drek hit the fan and the drones were the first involved and the rest of the
party showed up shortly there after.

The second, the team went to an abondoned club for a meet. The rigger had
his RC deck. Well to put it mildly, the meeet was an ambush and the rigger
had to find a corner to hide in and save our hoops.

Riggers and drones, IMHO, can definately be used for surveillance and as
some heavy backup if needed.

Ron
Message no. 27
From: Dave Mowbray dave_mowbray@*****.com
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 12:15:51 -0500
<snip everything>

I agree with ---(triple-dash) Dave.

If you don't know the rules, either learn em or make your player do it.
After all, drones are really what make the rigger more than a getaway
driver.

-Dave
Message no. 28
From: Richard Gaywood r.gaywood@**********.com
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:23:14 -0000
Graht wrote:
> [SNIP - send in the drones first]

But there's so much drones can't do! During a typical urban compound crawl
in my campaigns, the player's typically have to get some gizmo
(prototype/scientist/data). In order to do so, they generally face a
varying-but-doable level of security on site and a
varying-but-harder-than-you security force on alert somewhere else in the
'plex, say on +15min response. I don't think this is unreasonable for a
megacorp, and even ickle corps can warrant bad-ass Lone Star response if the
player's start using milspec weaponry.

Once all hell breaks loose, the players know they've got a certain length of
time before the butt-kickers show up and ruin everyone's day. But, finding
the gizmo/scientist/data takes a certain period of time that has to be done
by human hands on site (otherwise the sponsoring corp would have just sent
in unmarked robots, right?).

So, if they go in mob-handed with LMG equipped drones they risk not having
enough time to finish the mission. However, if they sneak in, *try* to sneak
out and keep the heavy artillery (including force 6 hellblasts & Panther
assault cannons) until they really need it, they've got a much better chance
of success.

This has applied to most of my campaigns, and I generally encourage my
riggers (and my deckers) to be fairly handy in a scrap, so they're not
twiddling their thumbs in the sneaky bit. Then, if all hell does break
loose, they can activate the combat-heavy drones they've previously setup a
few blocks down the road and use then as cover for a breakout.

Works for me, anyway...

-=R=-
http://www.clmconsulting.co.uk
ICQ: 66545073
UT ngStats: RichBeard
Message no. 29
From: Lady Jestyr jestyr@*********.html.com
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:03:32 +1000
>Some asked about scout drones. If a player said he wanted to make a rigger
>with *just* scout drones I would try it (never been done in any Shadowrun
>game I've played or GMed) to see what it's like.

FWIW, my last rigger had a sum total of *one* combat drone. It was an
overly-lacquered prettied-up Ares Guardian called "Elvis", and it cost her
so fraggin' much that she put a sheet of plate glass on top of it and used
it as a coffee table in her apartment, because it was so expensive that
there was no way she was risking it on a run...

Evidently, your mileage has varied - but don't assume that *all* drone
riggers are going to unbalance the power level of a game. ;-)

Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr *
Message no. 30
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 02:01:44 EST
In a message dated Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:41:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,
dbuehrer@******.carl.org writes:

> Would you please write up a Guide to Playing Riggers and put it on HH?

Uhm, er... sure... yeah... ;-P

> For that matter, guides for the other stereotypes would probably be a good
> idea too.
>
> Not that I want to make you any busier than you are ;)

If I had the time, I might. I'll see if I can get the three rigger players in the group
to do an "in character" thing what their world is like, and put it in the
fiction section. Please note, it's a wide array of mentalities.

Buzz (Marvin): the irrascible dwarf who prefers helicopters and LTA (drones) to everything
else. Running comments of his are hilarious. He *really* likes the decker, who helps him
coordinate all his "legal crossings" over borders and such.

Tank (Brandi): The ultra-flightly little dwarven rigger (female) who wants the mage around
because about the only thing she can't handle is the magical side of things.

Archer/Herc (Mike B.): The old hat of the group. Archer is a blast, but he's hard to
understand (he's the "Rigger-Archer" who is the Tuesday gropus "heavy
hitter"). Herc is Herc. We'll leave that much alone ...

I will see if I can get them to write something though. It may be more doable than me
trying to write one up.

-K
Message no. 31
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 02:58:23 EST
In a message dated 3/28/2000 11:02:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
HHackerH@***.com writes:

> > Would you please write up a Guide to Playing Riggers and put it on HH?
>
> Uhm, er... sure... yeah... ;-P

Hmm, well, here's how HM see's rigging....

Shedding your Skin(s)
(HM on Rigging)

One of my mates on Echo team once asked me to describe what it's like to be a
rigger. Well, I'd have to say that it's better than sex. Well, almost,
anyway. Nothing is really better than Sex, but to me rigging comes the
closest. I've tried to describe it in the past, but only P-64; my Echo team
compatriot seems to come anywhere close to understanding.

Deckers are like that, I suppose. Mages might also understand, the way they
can move about magespace with a thought, but Harmony and Hound get this real
disgusted look on their faces when I mention that. Ok, I know. I'm acting
like Ryoga, wandering around without ever getting to the subject at hand. I
mentioned them for a reason though. In all three examples, each of these
people is able to set aside their body and take up a new one. For the mages,
its an astral form; for a decker, a matrix Icon. And that's really at the
heart of being a rigger… your taking on a form that's not your own.

In this respect, all riggers are equal. It doesn't matter if you push a
plane to the edge of its envelope or literally become a bug on the wall
listening to a conversation, as a rigger you regularly exchange your meat
body for a metal one. That's what makes you a rigger. There are people who
can drive as well as I can or even better (but not likely!) but they are not
riggers. What makes you a rigger is a piece of equipment in your midbrain
called a Vehicle Control Rig, or VCR. Its what that piece of gear does that
makes you a rigger.

This piece of headgear links you into the machine your controlling. It's
more than a link, though. You literally become the machine you're connected
to. Its no longer your car screaming along at 120 KPH with Knight Errant
trying to catch up, its YOU. The vehicles sensors are your eyes, its
powerplant your heart, and its wheels are your feet. I shan't mention what
part of the body any weapon system you might have maps to, but lets just say
there is a reason slightly hung riggers want drones with really BIG guns, ok?
Your suddenly Steve Austin, the six billion dollar man, only more so. You
know what shape your vehicle is in just as easily as a samurai can tell you
if he's been seriously wounded or not. Your running at your top speed, and
that biological computer that most people call a brain is making thousands of
minute adjustments to keep your rig moving without conscious thought. You
just think of yourself as running, and boom, you're screaming down the
street. No need to twitch a wheel… you see a gap in traffic and just
visualize yourself slipping through it and boom, your clear on the other side
and K.E. is left in the dust cursing your name. You're no longer Howling
Mad, a crazy rigger with a love of anime; but BAMF, a ton and a half of
screaming armored metal on wheels.

Myself, I both drive and do drones. Some riggers do one or the other, and
that's ok with me, I suppose, but it's like the rest of my life. I don't
limit myself to one type of Anime, so why should I limit myself to one type
of rigging? In the long run, it really doesn't matter, though. The
principal is the same… you exchange your meat body for one of metal.
Doing
drones requires a sort of sixth sense, though. Even in what's called the
Captain's chair mode you have to be able to keep track of several things at
once. This is because you've got yourself spread all over the place…
part of
you flying over here, another crawling through a sewer pipe over there and a
third rolling around the perimeter of the compound checking to see if
security has twigged to the fact that your buddies are inside about to boost
something they don't want us to have. Even when you've jumped in and become
a particular drone, you still need to be aware of where the rest of you is
and what your doing. That takes a special sort of mindset, or you go
schizophrenic. But if you can handle it, there is nothing else quite like
it. Suddenly, your Ranma Satome, the greatest martial artist ever, or Sailor
Moon, champion of love and justice. Your no longer you, you've become
someone or something else… feeling what they do, but YOUR in control of
the
action. And that, to me, is what rigging is really all about…


--
Starrngr -- Ranger HQ
HTTP://home.talkcity.com/TheSanitarium/Da_Muck/

"You wear a Hawaiian shirt and bring your music on a RUN? No wonder they
call you Howling Mad..." -- Rabid the Pysad.
Message no. 32
From: Bruce iti03678@****.co.za
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:28:05 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: Starrngr@***.com <Starrngr@***.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: 29 March 2000 09:59
Subject: Re: Riggers and Drones Question


In a message dated 3/28/2000 11:02:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
HHackerH@***.com writes:

> > Would you please write up a Guide to Playing Riggers and put it
on HH?
>
> Uhm, er... sure... yeah... ;-P

Hmm, well, here's how HM see's rigging....

<snip great rigger description>

>--
>Starrngr -- Ranger HQ

Starrngr,

We would love your input for the Newbies Guide to Riggers that we are
working on at SCR. Check my sig for details.

- -
Bruce
<phantasm@****.co.za>
Shadowrun Creative Resources - www.jackpoint.org/lists/scr
P.L.U.R
Message no. 33
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:10:17 +0200
According to Lady Jestyr, at 13:03 on 29 Mar 00, the word on the street
was...

> FWIW, my last rigger had a sum total of *one* combat drone. It was an
> overly-lacquered prettied-up Ares Guardian called "Elvis", and it cost her
> so fraggin' much that she put a sheet of plate glass on top of it and used
> it as a coffee table in her apartment, because it was so expensive that
> there was no way she was risking it on a run...

That probably makes you(r character) an exception... Most shadowrunners
I've seen wouldn't think twice about taking gear costing hundreds of
thousands of nuyen with them on a run.

> Evidently, your mileage has varied - but don't assume that *all* drone
> riggers are going to unbalance the power level of a game. ;-)

And if they do, change the scenery from time to time, to place them in
situations where they can't use their drones all the time.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What a pretty life you have...
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 34
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Riggers and Drones Question
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 16:34:57 EST
In a message dated 3/29/2000 1:32:30 AM Pacific Standard Time,
iti03678@****.co.za writes:

> We would love your input for the Newbies Guide to Riggers that we are
> working on at SCR. Check my sig for details.
>
I'll wander by and take a look... but shouldnt all that stuff have been moved
to dumpshock.com instead of being at jackpoint.org?

--
Starrngr -- Ranger HQ
HTTP://home.talkcity.com/TheSanitarium/Da_Muck/

"You wear a Hawaiian shirt and bring your music on a RUN? No wonder they
call you Howling Mad..." -- Rabid the Pysad.

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