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From:	Calvin Hsieh <u2172778@*******.ACSU.UNSW.EDU.AU>
Subject:	Rigger VCR and Wired Reflexes
Date:	Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:33:39 +1100

Message no. 1 Hey people,

Just an associated question. Where precisely in the rules does it say
that only VCRs give an initiative bonus while driving/droning etc? I know
it is true (ie., no wired reflexes init bonuses), but I want a page
reference if possible.

Shaman

_________________________________________________________
In Real Life: Calvin Hsieh
In Neo-Arch Real Life: Shaman

Neurological problems 101:
Kluver-Bucy Syndrome.
Occurs with the bilateral removal of the temporal lobe,
including amygdala.
Symptoms: Overattentiveness, hyperorality, psychic
blindness, hypersexuality, absense of emotional response.
_________________________________________________________

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Rigger VCR and Wired Reflexes
Date:	Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:41:43 -0700

Message no. 2 Calvin Hsieh wrote:
|
| Hey people,
|
| Just an associated question. Where precisely in the rules does it say
| that only VCRs give an initiative bonus while driving/droning etc? I know
| it is true (ie., no wired reflexes init bonuses), but I want a page
| reference if possible.

Uh... I just checked the rules for initiative and the descriptions for VCR
and Wired Reflexes, and I couldn't find anything.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~

From:	Ziggy <zithelp@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: Rigger VCR and Wired Reflexes
Date:	Tue, 25 Feb 1997 18:07:00 -0800

Message no. 3 Calvin Hsieh wrote:
>
> Hey people,
>
> Just an associated question. Where precisely in the rules does it say
> that only VCRs give an initiative bonus while driving/droning etc? I know
> it is true (ie., no wired reflexes init bonuses), but I want a page
> reference if possible.
>
> Shaman
>
> _________________________________________________________
> In Real Life: Calvin Hsieh
> In Neo-Arch Real Life: Shaman
>
> Neurological problems 101:
> Kluver-Bucy Syndrome.
> Occurs with the bilateral removal of the temporal lobe,
> including amygdala.
> Symptoms: Overattentiveness, hyperorality, psychic
> blindness, hypersexuality, absense of emotional response.
> _________________________________________________________

Well, we've been having this argument on Detroit Shadowrun MUSH. Here
are some of the posts, some were deleted and I couldn't snag:

2/25/97

=================================== Riggers
==================================
Message: 22/2 Posted Author
VCRs vs Wires Thu Feb 13 Silence
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay. Uh, I got a rules question. What happens when a samurai with wired
reflexes 2, muscle augmentation 2, enchanced articulation, adrenaline
pump,
encephalon 4 and reaction enhancer +2 (from cybertechnology) gets into
an all
american Ford Americar and tries to race with a rigger with VCR-1. Uh,
I mean
how do different reaction enhancers work in relation with VCR
technology? And
would the guy still roll his 3d6 + <something unlordly here> for
initiative?
=============================================================================
=================================== Riggers
==================================
Message: 22/6 Posted Author
My Idea Thu Feb 20 Athena
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry about posting this here after the thread was supposed to end but
I've
been away for a while and I really wanted you all to know my opinion
of this.
I see it as follows : Your rigger has VCR 2 giving him an init of
9+3D6 for
example. Your sammie has Wired reflexes 2, giving him also the same
init.
Now, if you look in SRII rules it says that the only init that applies
to
driving is the VCR. So, while driving, your rigger has his 9+3D6 but
your
sammie has 5+1D6. The rigger also has a control pool which, in my
opinion,
puts him in a huge advantage. This puts the rigger way ahead of the
sammie
because if the sammie doesn't use a complex action (probably the only
one he
gets too) he has to make a crash test, where as the rigger gets his
Complex
action and probably another action before the end of the turn,
allowing him
to fire a weapon, or whatever he wants to do. If the sammie wasn't
driving
then he would have his 9+3D6 and would get a number of actions based
on how
well the driver made his position test. Well, thats the way I use it
in my
game anyway and it makes riggers a useful addition to the team, if
only for
getaways. :) Also, the rules Lesley quoted from p.183 are used when
something
unexpected happens in an out of combat situation, I think thats what
it said
anyway. :) Hope this helps.....
=============================================================================
=================================== Riggers
==================================
Message: 22/8 Posted Author
VCR's vs Wires Again Sun Feb 23 Paul
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, before I start I want to quote a few things strait from the
book so
you won't be confused as to where I am comming from. On page 104 SR2
it reads
Vehicle Control Rigs
To become a rigger requires the ability to use a piece of
cyberware
known as a vehicle control rig (VCR). This equipment allows the rigger
to
cybernetically command a vehicle by jacking directly into it or to
operate
the vehicle remotely via a remote-control deck. The vehicle control
rig gives
the rigger advantages such as bonuses to Reaction and Initiative, plus
the
Control Pool.
Rigger/Vehicle Initiative
A rigger only receives the Reaction and Initiative bonuses for
the
vehicle control rig while cybernetically controlling a vehicle. This
may be a
direct link into the vehicle, or through a remote link via a rigger
deck.
Other types of Reaction or Initiaitve enhancing cyberware or magics do
not
assist the rigger while jacked in.
Vehicle Combat --> Determining Initiative. Page 106
Now its time for the participants to determine Initiative, in
the usual
manner. Characters using vehicle control rigs to operate a vehicle may
add
the Reaction and Initiative modifiers for that piece of cyberware.
Also,
apply any Initiative modifiers related to vehicle damage at this time,
reducing the drivers effective Reaction.
Ok, so what this tells us is the following:
1) To be a rigger you must have a VCR.
2) A rigger only gets bonuses from his/her VCR while piloting a
rigged
vehicle.
3) In vehicle combat ONLY a rigger may add bonuses to
Initiative.
The questionable line is: Now its time for the participants to
determine Initiative, in the usual manner. This is refering to the
method of
determining initiave, ie Rolling your (Init)d6 + Reaction, not rolling
your
usuall reaction if you happen to not be jacked in.
Paul, that guy that eats all the veggie dip at your party.
=============================================================================
=================================== Riggers
==================================
Message: 22/9 Posted Author
Re: Paul & VCRs Mon Feb 24 Silence
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really really hate to be saying it, but, Paul, you got
something
wrong. The first 2 of your conclusions are right, but the third is
not. If
you haven't noticed, every quote you give is filled with the words
'rigger'
or 'using vehicle control rigs'. What I'm saying is that, if you read
the
rules really carefully, they always use that damn word, 'rigger'.
What's a
rigger? In the context, a guy with a wire sticking out of his head
that runs
all the way under the dashboard. What the rules say, that if THAT
happens,
any other init modifiers do not apply, because the 'rigger' is
posessed by
the VCR technology, just like a decker, and his body isn't that
irrelevant.
What the rules DON'T say, in any shape or form, is whether or not any
other
reaction modifiers of your body/mind apply (or NOT?) when there's -no-
VCR,
and that's the damn problem. I have no problem whatsoever with
whatever the
'admin decision' is or would be, just thought I'd let you know that I
desagree with one of your conclusions.
And to think, we didn't even start discussing reaction enhancers
from
cybertechnology, bioware, all that fun stuff that makes a character
have 10
different reaction numbers depending on what he or she happens to be
doing.
Adrenalin pump, cyberlimbs, enchanced articulation, astral space,
matrix,
driving... don't you just -love- this stuff? :)
=============================================================================
=================================== Riggers
==================================
Message: 22/10 Posted Author
Riggers & U Tue Feb 25 X'ian
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The thing that sets a rigger apart from the other character types is his
or her
ability to rig, that is control a vehicle cybernetically. Their
'specialty'
is often seen as nothing more than being able to drive really well,
which
tends to make them seem less than say, the sammy who can take a bullet
and
keep on truckin, or the mage, or the decker who can make their own
magic in
the matrix.In my TT games, we've tried to further make the rigger seem
more
valuable by concentrating on some non-combat applications of rigging
technology.
1) The vehicle control rig, or at least how its portrayed in the
books,
is like you become one with the vehichle, seeing through its sensors
and
feeling through it's hull/outside as skin. So we allowed our riggers
to get a
ton of information about the vehichle they were rigged into, being
able to
-sense- the car or bike or what have you as a part of themselves.Now
while a
decker might be able to get more out of the on board computers of a
car or
panzer, and the wired sammy could whip wheel around faster, the rigger
can
tell exactly what needs to be compensated for, the extent of the
damage, if
any, and whether or not there are any unwanted passengers perhaps
hiding on
the roof or in the trunk.In the TT game, we gave the Rigger a B/R
bonus with
his rigged vehicle, using the justification that with the rig he would
know
more about what needed to be fixed or altered.
2) In our TT game we also let riggers squeeze more performance
out of
their 'babies', urging a vehicle beyond the red lines imposed by the
engineers who designed them. A rigger, using the above example, could
tell
-exactly- how much stress the engine can take and how fast it can get
there..
and then do so :)We did this in two manners.. if the rigger was trying
to get
more speed, he could trade in his control pool on a one for one
basis.. one
die for one percent above the maximum speed for the vehicle, up to a
max of
10 percent. Or, if the rigger was trying to push , say, the handling,
he
could trade in 5 control dice for an extra level of handling on the
vehicle.
It's just a little note and a suggestion that might make those
rigs a
bit more appealing than those oh-so-useful wires :) ----X
=============================================================================
=================================== Riggers
==================================
Message: 22/11 Posted Author
Riggers are the men Tue Feb 25 Silence
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Uh, from personal experience, hunter drones beat samurai one on one, and
cost
amazingly less to buy and maintain. In my table top game, where I was
the GM,
the most deadly of the runs were always 'saved' by the rigger, and not
as a
'get us out of here' gal, but as the member of the strike team. A
simple
fixed rotor drone with an LMG in it can do a lot more than a sammie in
a
lined coat sporting an Ingram Smartgun. Uh, not like I'm creating
their runs
with built-in opportunities for rigger to shine in, it's just a fact
of life.
A rigger with a drone is a bit like astrally projecting magician,
without the
hazard of dying with the 'projection' piece of himself. Think of him
as a
samurai with disposable (if a little pricey to change everyday) bodies
that
can fly.
=============================================================================

Hope this helps, thanks to all the great posters on my 2nd Favorite
MUSH, <2nd Only to Shadowrun Seattle ;)>

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Rigger VCR and Wired Reflexes
Date:	Wed, 26 Feb 1997 12:23:35 +0100

Message no. 4 Calvin Hsieh said on 9:33/26 Feb 97...

> Just an associated question. Where precisely in the rules does it say
> that only VCRs give an initiative bonus while driving/droning etc? I know
> it is true (ie., no wired reflexes init bonuses), but I want a page
> reference if possible.

That's on page 249 of SRII, in the Vehicle Control Rig blurb.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I'm not a philosopher, I only have a highschool diploma.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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