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Message no. 1
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Risk taking (Was: ... SR II healing ...
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 1994 23:28:53 +1000
>> I'm not saying that this discourages risk-taking, it just discourages
>> STUPID risk-taking.

luke>Be honest. It discourages both.

Matt replies:

> Just about everything a Shadowrunner does is taking a risk. Just because a
> mage can't snap his fingers and make everyone completely healed isn't gonna
> change that.

Agreed.

> Are you saying that characters in SRII don't take many risks
> because magical healing isn't as powerful?

They take lots of risks. But they can afford to take _less_ risks
because of the changed healing rules. (Since injured sammies will
be ineffective (TN +3 or +2) for weeks at a time.)

> Are you saying that groups without a healing mage don't take many risks?

Good god! _No_ healing mage!! Is that really possible?

luke

luke
Message no. 2
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Risk taking (Was: ... SR II healing ...
Date: Sun, 18 Sep 1994 13:03:47 -0400
On Sun, 18 Sep 1994, Luke Kendall wrote:

[lots of healing related stuff SNIPped]

> > Are you saying that groups without a healing mage don't take many risks?
>
> Good god! _No_ healing mage!! Is that really possible?

Hello! Yes, it's possible. It's even plausible. How many times
do I have to say this. Magical healing is not the be-all and end-all of
shadowrun. It's a helpful bonus, but it's not always available, nor is
it always successful. As to being useless with target mods, I have seen
some of the best gambles, swindles, hustles, and unbelievable shots taken
while wounded. If you take all the modifications in any given situation
into account (vision, movement, situational, etc.) wounds are usually
only the least of your worries. Just last night, I had a mage kill an
opponent when his final target number after all modifiers (including
wounds) was a 13. Ouch. I have also seen a sam inflict a Serious wound
on someone with a pistol (even though the guy was heavily armored) when
his T# was in the twenties.

Marc
Message no. 3
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Risk taking (Was: ... SR II healing ...
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 09:27:39 +1000
Marc A Renouf writes:

luke> Good god! _No_ healing mage!! Is that really possible?

> Hello! Yes, it's possible. It's even plausible.

Crazy, I would have said. Why not do runs blindfolded, too? ;-)

> How many times do I have to say this. Magical healing is not the be-all
> and end-all of shadowrun. It's a helpful bonus, but it's not always
> available, nor is it always successful.

It's a critical factor, but not the only critical factor.

> As to being useless with target mods, [...] Just last night, I had
> a mage kill an opponent when his final target number after all
> modifiers (including wounds) was a 13.

How? Not with a spell - I know of no single-success = Death spells.
Unless the opponent was already seriously wounded. Or did the mage
use an assault cannon? (I assume he rolled only one success with a
TN of 13 - or did he then buy extra successes with karma?)

> I have also seen a sam inflict a Serious wound on someone with a
> pistol (even though the guy was heavily armored) when
> his T# was in the twenties.

Again, how? In SR II, the armour subtracts from the power rating of
the weapon. A pistol is going to be at best power 6, so take that
down to a 2 (or lower) - and the guy then has to roll abysmally to
avoid that 1 success (again, I'm assuming 1 success).

These anecdotes sound strangely unreal to me. Am I missing something?

luke
Message no. 4
From: MILLIKEN DAMION A <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Risk taking (Was: ... SR II healing ...
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 19:23:12 +1000
luke writes:

> How? Not with a spell - I know of no single-success = Death spells.
> Unless the opponent was already seriously wounded. Or did the mage
> use an assault cannon? (I assume he rolled only one success with a
> TN of 13 - or did he then buy extra successes with karma?)

Well, any spell with an initial damage of deadly (such as hellblast) could
kill with a single success.

> Again, how? In SR II, the armour subtracts from the power rating of
> the weapon. A pistol is going to be at best power 6, so take that
> down to a 2 (or lower) - and the guy then has to roll abysmally to
> avoid that 1 success (again, I'm assuming 1 success).
>
> These anecdotes sound strangely unreal to me. Am I missing something?

Notice he said he'd seen, not that he saw it happen all the time. A stroke
of luck, or a massive expenditure of karma can aid in such occurances also
remember.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+
Message no. 5
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Risk taking (Was: ... SR II healing ...
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 13:47:04 -0400
On Mon, 19 Sep 1994, Luke Kendall wrote:

[example of mage killing opponent with high T#]

> How? Not with a spell - I know of no single-success = Death spells.
> Unless the opponent was already seriously wounded. Or did the mage
> use an assault cannon? (I assume he rolled only one success with a
> TN of 13 - or did he then buy extra successes with karma?)

There are several single success = death spells, the two biggest
I can think of offhand being Death Touch and Hellblast. But no, the mage
cast manabolt, got two successes and bought a third w/ Karma. The goon
only got one Willpower success, and therefore was toast.

[example of pistol shot damaging opponent when T# was over 20]

> Again, how? In SR II, the armour subtracts from the power rating of
> the weapon. A pistol is going to be at best power 6, so take that
> down to a 2 (or lower) - and the guy then has to roll abysmally to
> avoid that 1 success (again, I'm assuming 1 success).

You're thinking in SRI mode again. A Ruger Super-Warhawk loaded
out with explosive rounds clocks in at a hefty 11M. Minus the armor
rating (Partial Heavy armor, Ballistic of 6) the T# for Body rolls is a
5, which believe it or not is not all that easy to roll on six or seven
dice. The character got 1 succes and bought a second with Karma. As
before, the goon only got one or two succesess. I don't remember off
hand whether he took a serious or moderate wound, but either way, it had
to hurt.

> These anecdotes sound strangely unreal to me. Am I missing something?

In a way, they are, but I posted them to illustrate that Target
Number mods do not equal uselessness. They make things considerably more
difficult, but not impossible. Also, in either case, the characters only
burned a single Karma point, and didn't even NEED to do that. Both
examples would have resulted in damage being inflicted. But if you just
made a lucky-ass shot, wouldn't you want to make it count a little more?
Obviously these players thought so.

> luke

Marc
Message no. 6
From: Matt <mosbun@******.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Risk taking (Was: ... SR II healing ...
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 13:02:51 -0500
>> Are you saying that characters in SRII don't take many risks
>> because magical healing isn't as powerful?

>They take lots of risks. But they can afford to take _less_ risks
>because of the changed healing rules. (Since injured sammies will
>be ineffective (TN +3 or +2) for weeks at a time.)

Right. Taking less risks. They're still living on the edge, but not
taking unnecessary risks. Dangerous jobs without the option of Insta-Healing
encourages better planning to minimize the risk. And, yes, even rejecting runs
due to the danger level. Even the best group I've ever played in wasn't
able to infiltrate, say, Fuchi HQ in Tokyo. WAY too dangerous. I see
nothing wrong with that.

>> Are you saying that groups without a healing mage don't take many risks?

>Good god! _No_ healing mage!! Is that really possible?

Yes. They may be useful, but sometimes one just doesn't have the force points
to get all the spells they want and still throw in a Heal spell. Don't get
shot.

Matt
Message no. 7
From: "C. Paul Douglas" <granite@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Risk taking (Was: ... SR II healing ...
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 1994 14:15:01 -0400
On Mon, 19 Sep 1994, Luke Kendall wrote:
> How? Not with a spell - I know of no single-success = Death spells.
> Unless the opponent was already seriously wounded. Or did the mage
> use an assault cannon? (I assume he rolled only one success with a
> TN of 13 - or did he then buy extra successes with karma?)
>
Sure there is..Transform..Well as long as you choose properly when you
are casting..Turning Mr BadDude into a Tuna on some roof pretty much =
Death for even the healthiest of advasaries... HEH HEH HEH
-----------------------------GRANITE
Message no. 8
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Risk taking (Was: ... SR II healing ...
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 1994 09:28:24 +1000
Marc A Renouf wrote:

> [example of mage killing opponent with high T#]

luke> How? Not with a spell - I know of no single-success = Death spells.

> There are several single success = death spells, the two biggest
> I can think of offhand being Death Touch and Hellblast. But no, the mage
> cast manabolt, got two successes and bought a third w/ Karma.

Yeah, fair cop, sort of. I was thinking you can expect one success from
your victim's resistance test, so a single success will rarely suffice.

And the point about SRII power ratings/armour rules etc. is well-taken.

But these single-success kills seem to be the exception rather than the
rule. The corps and others that we run against are rarely so easily
dealt with. And our scenarios usually stretch over several days of
game time. Which basically means that there are lots of dice rolls
involved. And while you can pull off the occasional high TN with a bit
of luck, no one can do it just as a matter of course.

My impression, from all this discussion, is that with SR II healing
rules, you don't attempt things that you would using SR I healing.
Some people like this, since it gives a more realistic flavour to
things.

If we adopted these rules, our games would bog right down, as most of
us would want to plan/investigate/set-things-up over several game sessions,
before we ever took any action. But that's just us.

So for us, the SR I healing works better. But thanks for all the
(interesting to me) discussion.

luke

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