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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Hahns Shin)
Subject: Ritalin and ADHD (was Re: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....)
Date: Tue May 1 13:25:01 2001
<SNIP about Ritalin and dosing>
> Cylert can be taken once per day, making it a little easier to
handle all
> around.
The dosing is quite sensitive to each individual patient, and doctors
have a bad tendancy to a) overprescribe Ritalin to children who are
way too young for it, b) not follow on the dosing and titrate it as
appropriate, and c) have a working relationship with a child's parents
and teachers to accurately diagnose a child's REAL problems (this is a
WHOLE can of worms that I won't go into... basically it equates to
"Doctors have no time", which is true in some ways, but it never
should compromise a child's health care). Children and the elderly are
among the least compliant with medications as well (I don't blame them
either. With kids, it takes a long habit-forming chain to get them to
learn to take the pills, and the elderly often have a dozen meds which
they have to remember to take at certain times of the day. It's a
juggling act, to be sure).

As far as Cylert, I've seen patients that responded great to Ritalin,
but when switched to Cylert, found it to be intolerable or
ineffective. Vice versa is also true. Meds have to be tailored to the
patient's needs, and a doctor has to be observant (I often think about
Dr. Nick's flashback in the Simpsons "Hey baby! I can prescribe
anything you want!").

> As for an advantage in the Matrix, it depends on how much of ADHD is
> chemically affecting other than the brain. If it keeps certain
chemicals
> flowing, anyone with ADHD will have a hard time jacking in for any
length
> of time. ADD Inattentive Type, on the other hand, would work quite
well.
Which brings up another point: ADHD (ADD somehow has fallen into
disuse in the literature) is a moniker that encompasses a whole range
of symptoms, from "zoning out" to "hyperactivity" to "short
attention
span". It is difficult to diagnose without a full psych workup, and
even then, a child may know to turn on the "act normal" switch in a
doctor's/shrink's office and then turn on the "act hyper" switch in
school. I've seen this plenty of times, and shake my head (kids are SO
much smarter than adults). The inattentive portion of ADHD tends to
manifest in girls, while the hyperactivity portion tends to manifest
in guys, but you get it both ways.

My real beef is the parents who come up to doctors demanding Ritalin
because they "perceive" hyperactivity, when in reality, they just want
drugs to shut the kids up. And then there are the doctors who just
write the prescription, never bothering to do a follow-up or a
psych/neuro exam on the kid. True, a lot of kids have improved school
work when on Ritalin, but it's an amphetamine. ANYONE would have
improved school work hopped up on amphetamine.

> It's one of the reasons I'm online 16 of 24 hours in a day. =)
And the other reasons? :-)

<snippity>
> Not necessarily. There's been studies that have hinted at a possible
> connection between ADD and high-form Autism, mostly due to some
similarity
> of symptoms and effects. Most people with ADD have serious issues
> concentrating all day long, unless it's something they're interested
in.
Except that Autism is a FAR worse psych/neuro disorder. ADHD kids can
actually interact with their peers (though their disorder sometimes
gets in the way). Autistic kids are isolated in their own little
world, with little or no empathy or social connections with others.
You hear about the "idiot savant" music/art/math geniuses, but you
never hear about the greater portion of the cases of kids that just
sit in the corner and rock themselves into a stupor. They are among
the loneliest people in the world. Autism is another blanket
statement, too, which covers a whole spectrum of syndromes, and mild
cases can be controlled. In middle school, I knew a kid who was
diagnosed with Autism, and he was an excellent chess player. Though he
was quiet, he would crack jokes with the rest of the guys. He excelled
in Math and Science, but the Liberal Arts simply did not interest him.

Hahns Shin, MS I
Budding cybersurgeon
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George Metz)
Subject: Ritalin and ADHD (was Re: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....)
Date: Wed May 2 03:30:01 2001
On Tue, 1 May 2001, Hahns Shin wrote:

> The dosing is quite sensitive to each individual patient, and doctors
> have a bad tendancy to a) overprescribe Ritalin to children who are

Aye, they do. I managed to dodge that bullet, but I also am legitimately
classified as ADD Inattentive Type. (I won't go into my feelings on the
subject of calling anything that effects roughly 25% of a population being
labelled a "disorder".) In my case though, I was diagnosed with it by a
full psych workup in the 4th grade, teachers were informed to work more
closely with me on it, and I began to excel in my schoolwork because of
it. After 6th grade, I moved from Louisiana - a state with a bad rap in
the education department, IMHO - to Connecticut. Unfortunately, they
didn't transfer my psych records with me, so it wasn't rediscovered until
I was 18. My parents had been led to believe that it was a condition I
would grow out of.

> way too young for it, b) not follow on the dosing and titrate it as

Again, I dodged; good doctors apparently.

> appropriate, and c) have a working relationship with a child's parents
> and teachers to accurately diagnose a child's REAL problems (this is a

Agreed on all your follow-ups as well. This can sometimes be a fault of
the child, as well. Parents may want to respect their children's privacy,
so won't go over their heads when the child says he doesn't want to talk
about it or tells them to butt out, as is likely to happen with teenagers.

> As far as Cylert, I've seen patients that responded great to Ritalin,
> but when switched to Cylert, found it to be intolerable or
> ineffective. Vice versa is also true. Meds have to be tailored to the
> patient's needs, and a doctor has to be observant (I often think about
> Dr. Nick's flashback in the Simpsons "Hey baby! I can prescribe
> anything you want!").

Both worked for me, but I couldn't possibly remember to take the follow-on
doses of Ritalin. As a consequence, I was switched to Cylert and it worked
fine.

> Which brings up another point: ADHD (ADD somehow has fallen into
> disuse in the literature) is a moniker that encompasses a whole range
> of symptoms, from "zoning out" to "hyperactivity" to "short
attention
> span". It is difficult to diagnose without a full psych workup, and
> even then, a child may know to turn on the "act normal" switch in a
> doctor's/shrink's office and then turn on the "act hyper" switch in
> school. I've seen this plenty of times, and shake my head (kids are SO
> much smarter than adults). The inattentive portion of ADHD tends to
> manifest in girls, while the hyperactivity portion tends to manifest
> in guys, but you get it both ways.

Agreed. Although I think that there's an occasional issue with
"underachiever" boys being overlooked for it since they aren't
hyperactive. Most people are taught to look for the Inattentive type in
girls, and not boys.

> > It's one of the reasons I'm online 16 of 24 hours in a day. =)
> And the other reasons? :-)

Uh... Nothing better to do? =) I work for 8, sleep for 8, and the other 8
are usually online doing stuff that I didn't have a chance to do at work.
Like e-mail, Unreal Tournament, IRC, and brushing up on my (already
stellar, IMnsHO) technical skills. =) Most of my friends live in other
states, and my fiancee lives with me, so not much reason to go out.

> <snippity>
> > Not necessarily. There's been studies that have hinted at a possible
> > connection between ADD and high-form Autism, mostly due to some
>
> Except that Autism is a FAR worse psych/neuro disorder. ADHD kids can

(Snip!)

You misread me there. I specified high-form autism, where the autistic is
more than capable of interacting with their peers and society in general,
but tend to exhibit "normal" autistic traits when they start focusing on
something they want or one of their areas of interest. My cousin happens
to be a high-form autistic, and while she's normally a very pleasant girl,
does very well in school, has friends, and stuff like that, she once
attacked her mother with a (fortunately butter)knife because she was told
she couldn't use the computer. This was before they knew she had high-form
autism. She understands her situation and condition, and relies on her
parents for the time being to provide the cues to let her know when she's
"slipping" as she calls it. She's still in high school at the moment, so
they've got time to work out better social cues.

Also, there are several autists that have abilities that lean strongly in
the direction of the liberal arts; some can perform piano concertos from
memory after hearing it only once and replay it perfectly; others paint
some truly amazing artwork, and several other examples.

--
George Metz
Commercial Routing Engineer
wolfstar@*********.wox.org

"We know what deterrence was with 'mutually assured destruction' during
the Cold War. But what is deterrence in information warfare?" -- Brigadier
General Douglas Richardson, USAF, Commander - Space Warfare Center
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Ritalin and ADHD (was Re: Antidepressants and yoouuuuuu.....)
Date: Wed May 2 08:05:00 2001
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In a message dated 5/2/01 3:38:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
wolfstar@*********.wox.org writes:


> She's still in high school at the moment, so
> they've got time to work out better social cues.

On that note, I'll continue with the 'screwups in the 2060s' series of
questions by asking...What's going to happen with the disabled? Especially,
say, the blind? Same as previous questions, jump in if you even have an idea.
Hahns?

Oh yeah, a related but off-topic question. Me being partially sighted, I'd
like to compensate for my...utter lack of ability to pick up body language,
to say the least (What CRUEL part of nuerology causes that, Hahns? Or am I
*gulp* unique?)...by learning sign language, which I honestly should've
learned years ago, and now wonder if it shouldn't be taught as part of the
regular curriculum in schools. Anybody know any good resources on the net to
start with? I once had that book 'Joy of Signing', from when I was little and
nobody knew if I'd be able to talk (now I can't shut up, see?:-)), but it ran
away on me.

John

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2>In a message dated 5/2/01
3:38:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
<BR>wolfstar@*********.wox.org writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">She's still in high school
at the moment, so
<BR>they've got time to work out better social cues.</FONT><FONT
COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial"
LANG="0"></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR></FONT><FONT COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">
<BR> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;On that note, I'll
continue with the 'screwups in the 2060s' series of
<BR>questions by asking...What's going to happen with the disabled? Especially,
<BR>say, the blind? Same as previous questions, jump in if you even have an idea.
<BR>Hahns?
<BR>
<BR>Oh yeah, a related but off-topic question. Me being partially sighted, I'd
<BR>like to compensate for my...utter lack of ability to pick up body language,
<BR>to say the least (What CRUEL part of nuerology causes that, Hahns? Or am I
<BR>*gulp* unique?)...by learning sign language, which I honestly should've
<BR>learned years ago, and now wonder if it shouldn't be taught as part of the
<BR>regular curriculum in schools. Anybody know any good resources on the net to
<BR>start with? I once had that book 'Joy of Signing', from when I was little and
<BR>nobody knew if I'd be able to talk (now I can't shut up, see?:-)), but it ran
<BR>away on me.
<BR>
<BR>John</FONT></HTML>

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