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Message no. 1
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:58:22 -0500
OK, I to port RM's Tarot Mage into SR (MC 23: :P~ ) so here's my first
attempt:

First a Tarot Mage must have enchanting skill and must create the
following items (fetishes):
A Sword (which can also be a Weapon Focus, and/or Spell Focus)
A Cup (which can also a Spell Focus)
A Rod (which can also a Power focus, and/or Spell Focus
A Pentacle (which can also a Spell Focus)
A Tarot Deck (which can also a Spell focus/Spirit Focus)

All of the Tarot Mage's Spells are cast with Reusable Fetishes
(self-made):
Tarot Deck (Detection Spells)
Sword (Most Combat Spells/Damaging Manipulations with the
Wind-based/related Elemental Effects)
Cup (Heath Spells / Spells with Water-based/related Elemental Effects)
Rod (Manipulation Spells / Spells with Fire-based/related Elemental
Effects)
Pentacle (Illusion Spells / Spells with Earth-based/related Elemental
Effects)
[These last 2, I'm not so sure of ...]

The problem is what kind of spirits do Tarot Mages Summon? Elementals
and Spirits of Man both seem very aprropriate ...They might also get a
bonus (+2D) to conjuring advisors (from NAGEE, IIRC).

They would most likely maintain libraries as per Mages...

Whadya think?
Like or dislike/Fits with SR or not?

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum)
Btw, Tarot Mages are from RM companion VII

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Message no. 2
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:36:33 -0700
----------
> From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: RM Tarot Mage in SR
> Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 3:58 PM
>
> OK, I to port RM's Tarot Mage into SR (MC 23: :P~ ) so here's my first
> attempt:
>
<snip>
> The problem is what kind of spirits do Tarot Mages Summon? Elementals
> and Spirits of Man both seem very aprropriate ...They might also get a
> bonus (+2D) to conjuring advisors (from NAGEE, IIRC).
>

The bit at the back of... Dunky's Secrets has a mage who believes that his
magical abilities are gone, but begins to subconsciously summon spirits
that look like the major arcana. You might base it off of that.

> They would most likely maintain libraries as per Mages...
>
> Whadya think?
> Like or dislike/Fits with SR or not?
>

Like it? Yeah, a bit. Fit with SR? Probably about as well as my
Zeitgeists. ;)
Message no. 3
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:45:12 -0800
At 17:58 5/12/98 -0500, Alfredo B Alves insinuated:
>OK, I to port RM's Tarot Mage into SR (MC 23: :P~ ) so here's my first
>attempt:

>First a Tarot Mage must have enchanting skill and must create the
>following items (fetishes):
>A Sword (which can also be a Weapon Focus, and/or Spell Focus)
>A Cup (which can also a Spell Focus)
>A Rod (which can also a Power focus, and/or Spell Focus
>A Pentacle (which can also a Spell Focus)
>A Tarot Deck (which can also a Spell focus/Spirit Focus)

Actually, using the Tarot as part of a magical style is *very* appropriate
to Hermetic magic. Try sitting down and thinking about how a Tarot mage
would go about working their magic, then create a Hermetic mage with
appropriate fetishes. FASA has left most of Hermetic magic completely
undefined, other than the circle used for conjuring, so there's lots of
room for making yourself a mage with a distinctive but thoroughly Hermetic
style. Assign the four suits of the Tarot to the usual four elements and
the corresponding spell categories, keep the Major Arcana for health spells
and metaplanar stuff, and get more detailed from there...

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 4
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:14:50 -0500
On Tue, 12 May 1998 15:45:12 -0800 Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
writes:
>At 17:58 5/12/98 -0500, Alfredo B Alves insinuated:
>>OK, I to port RM's Tarot Mage into SR (MC 23: :P~ ) so here's my first
>>attempt:
>
>>First a Tarot Mage must have enchanting skill and must create the
>>following items (fetishes):
>>A Sword (which can also be a Weapon Focus, and/or Spell Focus)
>>A Cup (which can also a Spell Focus)
>>A Rod (which can also a Power focus, and/or Spell Focus
>>A Pentacle (which can also a Spell Focus)
>>A Tarot Deck (which can also a Spell focus/Spirit Focus)
>
>Actually, using the Tarot as part of a magical style is *very*
appropriate
>to Hermetic magic. Try sitting down and thinking about how a Tarot mage
>would go about working their magic, then create a Hermetic mage with
>appropriate fetishes. FASA has left most of Hermetic magic completely
>undefined, other than the circle used for conjuring, so there's lots of
>room for making yourself a mage with a distinctive but thoroughly
Hermetic
>style. Assign the four suits of the Tarot to the usual four elements
and
>the corresponding spell categories, keep the Major Arcana for health
spells
>and metaplanar stuff, and get more detailed from there...
>
>--
>%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %%
<SNIP Sig>

Hmmm.... why make the Major Arcana Health? and what about the Minor
Arcana? How would you reccommend matching suits with elements / spell
categories? Also, I was thinking of requiring that Tarot Mages have Hard
Copy Libraries ... do you think that makes sense or should I just leave
it be?

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum)

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Message no. 5
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:11:37 EDT
In a message dated 5/12/98 6:24:24 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.COM writes:

<snipped the "Tarot Mage" outlines and suggestions>

> Whadya think?
> Like or dislike/Fits with SR or not?

Overall, I liked what I saw. I am not sure I liked the "Must create" part
concerning things, but even that wasn't all that bad...Merging Spirts and
Elementals will no doubt have someone screaming nasty names somewhere, but oh
well...

-K
Message no. 6
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 01:44:45 -0400
Once upon a time, Alfredo B Alves wrote;

>OK, I to port RM's Tarot Mage into SR (MC 23: :P~ ) so here's my first
>attempt:
<snip>
>Btw, Tarot Mages are from RM companion VII

I was up to RMC IV when I sold off my books so I haven't seen what a
Tarot Mage is. Of course I don't believe everything can be ported over
but some things can be done within a Shadowrun vein. It might be far
removed in some case but it would be something new to be explored.
If you could give some background on what a Tarot Mage is supposed
to do I'll hazard some approaches.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"All artists are victims of their desire to be unique"
-Original source unknown

I am MC23
Message no. 7
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:58:31 -0500
On Wed, 13 May 1998 00:11:37 EDT Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM> writes:
>In a message dated 5/12/98 6:24:24 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
>dghost@****.COM writes:
>
><snipped the "Tarot Mage" outlines and suggestions>
>> Whadya think?
>> Like or dislike/Fits with SR or not?
>
>Overall, I liked what I saw. I am not sure I liked the "Must create"
part
>concerning things, but even that wasn't all that bad...Merging Spirts
and
>Elementals will no doubt have someone screaming nasty names somewhere,
but oh
>well...
>
>-K

I hadn't intended to mix `em I was wondering which would be most
approriate. And after more thought I think that I'll make them summon
Elementals ...

also, I feel that the way I outlined them, Tarot Mages are severally
restricted so I was thinking about using the druid rules for summoning
replacing the bonuses for being x miles from a circle with having access
to a hard copy conjuring library with rating greater than or equal to the
force of the spirit but less than twice the force... And replacing the
bonuses for being x miles from the char's home circle with having access
to a hard copy conjuring library with rating greater than or equal to
twice the force of the spirit. And ignoring that stuff about spirits
serving until dawn.

Hmmmm... I'll have to think about this but I think I like this :)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum)

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Message no. 8
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 02:42:43 -0500
>Once upon a time, Alfredo B Alves wrote;
>>OK, I to port RM's Tarot Mage into SR (MC 23: :P~ ) so here's my
>first
>>attempt:
><snip>
>>Btw, Tarot Mages are from RM companion VII

On Wed, 13 May 1998 01:44:45 -0400 MC23 <mc23@**********.COM> writes:
> I was up to RMC IV when I sold off my books so I haven't seen what
a
>Tarot Mage is. Of course I don't believe everything can be ported over
>but some things can be done within a Shadowrun vein. It might be far
>removed in some case but it would be something new to be explored.
> If you could give some background on what a Tarot Mage is supposed
>to do I'll hazard some approaches.
>
<SNIP cool sig :) >
> I am MC23

heh heh companion 4 and 6 kinda sucked, 5 and 7 were good ...5 had the
Forcemage (manipulated the Basic Forces of Physics as a Magician did) and
7 had the Tarotmage (One of my Favorites)

Okay here's the descrip of Tarotmages from RM (their "Blurb" if you
will):
------Begin Quote------
A Tarotmage is a pure spell user of Essence whose power emanates from the
symbolic forms embodied in the tarot. Though rare, the Tarotmage can be
found almost anywhere, as he tends to wander the world in search of
enlightenment. He is trained in several crafting skills in order that he
may build the five symbolic items (the rod, cup, sword, and pentacle,
plus the tarot deck itself) through which his power is manifested.
Because the sword is an important tool of his profession, he is able to
master some basic combat skills more readily than the average student of
the Essence. The prime requisites for a Tarotmage are Empathy and
Reasoning.
-------End Quote-------
The DP costs are similar to a Runemaster (RMC2) ... some skill costs of
note:
Divination 1/2/* Crafting, Painting, Smithing, Wood Crafts 1/2
Level Bonuses:
Academic, Base Spell Casting, Evaluation (?), Arms Law Combat, Directed
Spells +1; General +2; Magical +3
All Spell lists require the creation of one of the five symbolic objects
(each a 10th level alchemical ritual) in order for the Taromage to cast
spells from them.
The Spell Lists Are:
Rod Magic (needs Rod, spells are mainly fire oriented [fire-bolt, fire
armor, etc ... though there is a fire bridge spell] or enchanting the
rod to be a spell adder or power multiplier)
Cup Magic (needs Cup, lots of healing spells here plus water bolt as well
as some scrying and a teleport spell)
Sword Magic (needs Sword, lotsa Combat related spells [Attack I-IV,
Blaade of Sharpness, Dancing Blade, ...] also enchanting the Tarotsword
for upto +25 at level 30)
Pentacle Magic (needs Pentacle, wierd stuff here, turning pentacle to
knife, throwing star, sheild, monetary units [1 x/day pentacle can
split into coin and pentacle] as well as that wierd symbol stuff)
Minor Arcana Magic (requires "number cards & face" of the Tarot Deck,
various spells related to the aspects associated with the individual
cards, the 50th level summons a "Tarot Mentor" which is kind of like a
spirit guide)
Major Arcana Magic (requires "aspect cards" of the Tarot Deck, various
spells which summon "entities" related to the aspects associated with
the individual cards [ie the Magician summons a magician, The Lovers
summons a female Healer and male Lay Healer, and The Hanged Man summons
a Magus] )
In the Tarot Of Many Teachings (don't ask, it's a complicated magical
item), the suits are matched as follows:
Rod with fire
Sword with air
Cup with water
and Pentacle with Earth
I tried to simplify things and worked from memory so I might not have
made the best choices for association ...also note that the Tarotmage can
use items made by someone else but his spells will be half as powerful
unless he makes his own ...

On spirits: For the most part, it seems pretty obvious to me that they
should summon elementals but the Major (and higher level minor) Arcana
Magic spells really seem to me to be Spirits of Man so how about pick one
of the Spirits of man and use its stats and call it Elemental Man? (hey
it's the 5th Element! ;)
If we had to go this route I'd say use the stats for Hearth spirits or
City spirits if the Tarotmage is a high grade intiate (say 7th
grade)...(btw, this means that for Astral Quests Tarotmages would have to
visit five metaplanes!)

Also, In a different post, I suggested adapting the Druid summoning rules
to Tarotmages...

Well there you go, That's the basis for em, whadya think?

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum)

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Message no. 9
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 06:01:10 -0500
>
> Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR (Alfredo B Alves , Tue 20:14)

> Hmmm.... why make the Major Arcana Health? and what about the Minor
> Arcana? How would you reccommend matching suits with elements / spell
> categories? Also, I was thinking of requiring that Tarot Mages have Hard
> Copy Libraries ... do you think that makes sense or should I just leave
> it be?
>

The suits ARE the minor arcana, and each minor arcana is tied to an
element, tradtionally, and hemetic elements are tied to spell types;
Cups- water - illusion (emptions and perceptions in readings)
rods - earth - manipulation (power and change in readings)
coins / pentacles- air - detection (wealth and knowledge in readings)
swords - fire - combat (conflict in readings)
Health has no element, and the major arcana represent, among other
things, the "state of man" in readings, so are good for health and
metamagic.
I'm no authorataive source- I've always prefered some "hard" astrology-
now THERE'S a hermetic pursuit! You could get tons of this from any
book on tarot, I'd guess, at least any book on the HISTORY of tarot, not
those cheasy "how to" books.

As for the hard copy libraries, ETC, I also think that the "tarot mage"
is best made a normal hermetic- historically, thathas been the tarots
use. They would have some role-played choices as to fetishes ETC, which
could maybe also be used as geas from magic loss or intitation ordeals
(I also think Geas make a good "flaw", if you use those).

-Mongoose
Message no. 10
From: "Jeremy \"Bolthy\" Zimmerman" <jeremy@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 07:43:19 -0700
----------
> From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
> Date: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 6:14 PM
>
<Snip neat explanation of uses for tarot-style hermetic magic>
> <SNIP Sig>
>
> Hmmm.... why make the Major Arcana Health? and what about the Minor
> Arcana? How would you reccommend matching suits with elements / spell
> categories? Also, I was thinking of requiring that Tarot Mages have Hard
> Copy Libraries ... do you think that makes sense or should I just leave
> it be?
>

It's been a while since I've studied much about tarot and magic, so feel
free to correct me on this.

The suits in a tarot deck typically have an element associated with each of
them. Buy any tarot deck and it should be in the little crappy book that
comes with it. You could also just buy a book on tarot that would be a bit
more in depth. The suits also correspond to the magical tools in a
hermetic-style magical altar, which also correspond to elements, though the
tools are scaled down a bit where necessary (daggers instead of swords,
wands instead of staves). Pentacles are Earth, Cups are water, and Wands
and Swords correspond to Fire and Air, though which corresponds to which
I've seen explained differently depending on the author. I prefer
Swords=Fire and Wands=Air, but others have different logic on the matter.

As for which elements go with which spell catagories, just look up
Elementals in the BBB. Each one aids with a different type of sorcery.
That's how it breaks down. No elementals are associated with Health spells
though, so it looks like Max associated them with the non-element-specific
cards, the Major Arcana.

Hope that helps.
Message no. 11
From: Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:12:47 +0200
>It's been a while since I've studied much about tarot and magic, so feel
>free to correct me on this.
>
>The suits in a tarot deck typically have an element associated with each of
>them. Buy any tarot deck and it should be in the little crappy book that
>comes with it. You could also just buy a book on tarot that would be a bit
>more in depth. The suits also correspond to the magical tools in a
>hermetic-style magical altar, which also correspond to elements, though the
>tools are scaled down a bit where necessary (daggers instead of swords,
>wands instead of staves). Pentacles are Earth, Cups are water, and Wands
>and Swords correspond to Fire and Air, though which corresponds to which
>I've seen explained differently depending on the author. I prefer
>Swords=Fire and Wands=Air, but others have different logic on the matter.

No, no. Typically, the sword represents spiritual matters and isn't
material at all. The wand is strongly physical, or more correctly strongly
conflictual. So fire is better for wands and air for swords. When you
consider tarot cards, you must appreciate them as symbols and not as
figures. The sword is in no way a symbol of war.

>As for which elements go with which spell catagories, just look up
>Elementals in the BBB. Each one aids with a different type of sorcery.
>That's how it breaks down. No elementals are associated with Health spells
>though, so it looks like Max associated them with the non-element-specific
>cards, the Major Arcana.

IMO, major arcana should be something else than health spells. I would
state that the tarot mage isn't able to cast health spells. To balance
things, you can make tarot mages adepts or you could give more power to
major arcana.

In my current campaign, I've got a bit use of the tarot cards but in a way
different than yours. If you're interested, I could tell you more on this.

- Cobra.
Message no. 12
From: TalonMail <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:24:22 EDT
>Alfredo B Alves suggested:
>OK, I to port RM's Tarot Mage into SR

The Tarot is a major magical tool in the hermetic tradition. The Minor Arcana
suits are usually associated with the hermetic elements, as follows: Swords
(Air), Cups (Water), Pentacles/Disks (Earth) and Wands (Fire). Some decks and
practioners reverse the correspondances for Swords and Wands, making Swords
fire and Wands air. In Shadowrun, the suits match up with four of the spell
categories, by element: Swords (Detection), Cups (Illusion), Pentacles
(Manipulation) and Wands (Combat).

The suits also match the four traditional hermetic tools or "elemental
weapons": a sword or dagger (called an Athame in Wiccan tradition), a chalice,
a pentacle (a disk with a pentagram or hexagram on it) and a wand. There are
all sorts of complex Tarot correspondances with the Kabbalah, astrology, and
similar hermetic systems.

Many mages in the Sixth World probably use Tarot decks as fetishes/foci for
various types of Detection Spells (as simple as drawing a single card from the
deck for a quick spellcasting to a complex spread of cards for ritual magic).
Tarot imagry is also used for "pathworking," which in Shadowrun is probably
astral questing, with the quest drawing on images from the Tarot.

Carl Sargent used Tarot a fair amount in Streets of Blood, where Geraint read
cards. It also shows up in "The Turtle and the Tower" by Ken St. Andre in the
Into the Shadows anthology and in my story "In the Cards" in Dunkelzan's
Secrets.

Okay, back to working on SR3 magic.

Take care,
Steve K.
Message no. 13
From: rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:29:27 -0500
>> OK, I to port RM's Tarot Mage into SR (MC 23: :P~ ) so here's my
first
>> attempt:
>>
><snip>
>> The problem is what kind of spirits do Tarot Mages Summon?
Elementals
>> and Spirits of Man both seem very aprropriate ...They might also get
a
>> bonus (+2D) to conjuring advisors (from NAGEE, IIRC).
>>
>
>The bit at the back of... Dunky's Secrets has a mage who believes that
his
>magical abilities are gone, but begins to subconsciously summon spirits
>that look like the major arcana. You might base it off of that.
>


Mr. Kenson wrote a short story one time using this concept of a Tarot
mage; wonder if he could be pursuaded to post it somewhere sometime. It
was a good read!

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...
Message no. 14
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:49:07 -0500
On Wed, 13 May 1998 06:01:10 -0500 Wafflemeisters
<evamarie@**********.net> writes:
>>
>> Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR (Alfredo B Alves , Tue 20:14)
>> Hmmm.... why make the Major Arcana Health? and what about the Minor
>> Arcana? How would you reccommend matching suits with elements / spell
>> categories? Also, I was thinking of requiring that Tarot Mages have
Hard
>> Copy Libraries ... do you think that makes sense or should I just
leave
>> it be?

> The suits ARE the minor arcana, and each minor arcana is tied to
an
>element, tradtionally, and hemetic elements are tied to spell types;
>Cups- water - illusion (emptions and perceptions in readings)
>rods - earth - manipulation (power and change in readings)
>coins / pentacles- air - detection (wealth and knowledge in readings)
>swords - fire - combat (conflict in readings)
> Health has no element, and the major arcana represent, among
other
>things, the "state of man" in readings, so are good for health and
metamagic.
> I'm no authorataive source- I've always prefered some "hard"
>astrology-now THERE'S a hermetic pursuit! You could get tons of this
from any
>book on tarot, I'd guess, at least any book on the HISTORY of tarot, not
>those cheasy "how to" books.

Right now, I've only got the RM book to go on and the original Spell
Lists were 1 list for each of the suits (rods, swords, cups, pentacles)
plus Major and Minor Arcana each had their own spell lists... btw, Cups
in the RM was clearly health oriented... Swords should be changed to go
with Combat enhancing Spells / Wind elementals / elemental effects ...
Rods or pentacles would be manipulations ... Rods associated with
elemental Fire, Pentacles with earth and cups with water ... :/ oh
well...

> As for the hard copy libraries, ETC, I also think that the
"tarot >mage" is best made a normal hermetic- historically, thathas been
the tarots
>use. They would have some role-played choices as to fetishes ETC, which
>could maybe also be used as geas from magic loss or intitation ordeals
>(I also think Geas make a good "flaw", if you use those).
>
>-Mongoose

??? what do you mean good flaw? Do you mean take a geasa and get x build
points? ... if so I agree ... :/

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum)

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Message no. 15
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:02:43 -0400
Once upon a time, TalonMail wrote;

>Okay, back to working on SR3 magic.

Yeah, you better. I don't want SR3 to be late. I want it now!
B>]#

-MC23, who is holding his breath until he turns the color of the new BBB-
Message no. 16
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:36:06 -0800
At 17:12 5/13/98 +0200, Cobra insinuated:
>>As for which elements go with which spell catagories, just look up
>>Elementals in the BBB. Each one aids with a different type of sorcery.
>>That's how it breaks down. No elementals are associated with Health spells
>>though, so it looks like Max associated them with the non-element-specific
>>cards, the Major Arcana.

>IMO, major arcana should be something else than health spells. I would
>state that the tarot mage isn't able to cast health spells. To balance
>things, you can make tarot mages adepts or you could give more power to
>major arcana.

Well, I'm going with the "hermetic mage with Tarot theme" rather than
"Tarot mage as some new kind of tradition" (which I think gives short
shrift to the notion of Hermetic magic), so I figured health spells
would fit in there somewhere. I expect that the progression through
the Major Arcana would be useful for health spells-- I'd expect any
healing spell to conclude with The World, for instance. Quite possibly,
Health spells and metaplanar stuff would require the full deck, so
an Increased Reflexes spell would require laying out a lot of wands
as well as The Chariot and whatever else you deemed appropriate.
Tarot could make a fine Centering skill as well: you take some extra
time on your spellcast by arranging the cards just so.

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 17
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:54:40 -0400
At 12:24 PM 5/13/98 EDT, you wrote:

Okay Steve, I don't recall ever asking you this before.

How do you know so much about "real" magic? I've always wondered this,
because I doubt FASA pays you enough to simply "become" a magic scholar.
Do you practice Wicca or something? (I doubt seriously I phrased that
properly) You seem to have a knowledge about "real" magic traditions above
and beyond that of most mere mortals.

>Okay, back to working on SR3 magic.

<whip crack>
Get back to work magic boy!
</whip crack>

Erik J.

Who realizes that Steve, Jak, Jon and any other FASA folk probably think we
are idiots at least part of the time, i.e. the Respected Elders Relaxtion
Home, the near flame-war on the flesh chunker...

I just hope they at least think we are *amusing* idiots...


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 18
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:27:02 EDT
In a message dated 5/13/98 1:09:06 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.COM writes:

> I hadn't intended to mix `em I was wondering which would be most
> approriate. And after more thought I think that I'll make them summon
> Elementals ...
>
<snipped possible parallels to rule suggestions using "druids">

Okay, my -personal- take on this. Stick mostly with the Hermetic, regardless
of the symbolisms that could be drawn.

Major Arcana divisions might be required for performing specific Rituals,
while any of the arcana would be inclusive to all magical activities, right
down to Talismongering and Spell Design or Assensing. Sort of a "Catch All
Forces Geas" if you will.

Perhaps Specific Cards could be used for Specific spells, like the "Required
Fetish" Geas some people use for their spells.

Specific combinations of cards would be required in massively intricate arrays
for conjuring, with Free Spirits requiring -VERY- specific card arrays.

Overall, the Tarot is best for consider Health and Detection Magic (SR style)
IMO. Beyond that, it would be a pretty complex collection of rules to make
things completely flush out.

Have Fun doing so... :)

-K
Message no. 19
From: Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:48:41 +0200
>>IMO, major arcana should be something else than health spells. I would
>>state that the tarot mage isn't able to cast health spells. To balance
>>things, you can make tarot mages adepts or you could give more power to
>>major arcana.
>
>Well, I'm going with the "hermetic mage with Tarot theme" rather than
>"Tarot mage as some new kind of tradition" (which I think gives short
>shrift to the notion of Hermetic magic), so I figured health spells
>would fit in there somewhere. I expect that the progression through
>the Major Arcana would be useful for health spells-- I'd expect any
>healing spell to conclude with The World, for instance. Quite possibly,
>Health spells and metaplanar stuff would require the full deck, so
>an Increased Reflexes spell would require laying out a lot of wands
>as well as The Chariot and whatever else you deemed appropriate.
>Tarot could make a fine Centering skill as well: you take some extra
>time on your spellcast by arranging the cards just so.

I see health spells the same as other spells so I wasn't too pleased to
give them a so big part. Even with hermetic mage with tarot theme, you can
add some variation like not enabling health spells. IMO, major arcana would
have a very fine use with astral quests.

I wouldn't see the mage to have to assemble the cards but the cards being
some kind of progression for him. Arcana are also for doing initiation. The
mage begins with the fool (grade 0 for 0 arcane) and progresses to the
ultimate level. I agree on it being a very good centering skill too.

- Cobra.
Message no. 20
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:57:35 -0400
At 02:02 PM 5/13/98 -0400, you wrote:

> Yeah, you better. I don't want SR3 to be late. I want it now!

Don't we all?

>-MC23, who is holding his breath until he turns the color of the new BBB-

Are we talking black or blue? Maybe the new BBB is something else, like
white or green or purple...

Erik J.


"Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"
Message no. 21
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:15:02 EDT
In a message dated 5/13/98 4:00:34 PM US Eastern Standard Time, erikj@****.COM
writes:

> Okay Steve, I don't recall ever asking you this before.
>
> How do you know so much about "real" magic? I've always wondered this,
> because I doubt FASA pays you enough to simply "become" a magic scholar.
> Do you practice Wicca or something? (I doubt seriously I phrased that
> properly) You seem to have a knowledge about "real" magic traditions
above
> and beyond that of most mere mortals.
>
I am going to answer this for Steve, but not directly. THIS TOPIC got way out
of hand as I recall a year or so ago. There are many beliefs running around,
that much is certain.

-K
Message no. 22
From: Max Rible <slothman@*********.ORG>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:16:52 -0800
At 18:15 5/13/98 EDT, Ereskanti insinuated:
>In a message dated 5/13/98 4:00:34 PM US Eastern Standard Time, erikj@****.COM
>writes:
>
>> Okay Steve, I don't recall ever asking you this before.
>>
>> How do you know so much about "real" magic? I've always wondered
this,
>> because I doubt FASA pays you enough to simply "become" a magic
scholar.
>> Do you practice Wicca or something? (I doubt seriously I phrased that
>> properly) You seem to have a knowledge about "real" magic traditions
above
>> and beyond that of most mere mortals.

>I am going to answer this for Steve, but not directly. THIS TOPIC got way out
>of hand as I recall a year or so ago. There are many beliefs running around,
>that much is certain.

Playing the game Ars Magica got me heavily into being a magic scholar.
Ars Magica, for those of you who don't know, is an RPG set in Mythic Europe--
Europe as people in the 12th century thought it was at the time. (The PC's
are generally wizards, using one of the best magic systems of any RPG;
though it isn't balanced with non-wizard types.) Because of the nature of
the game, any random book of folklore, history, or legend can be a sourcebook
for the game: who needs a Monster Manual when you can just skim through
Pliny's _Natural History_ for giant octopi, gold-digging ants, and men with
their faces in their chests? You could just as easily get into it from
playing White Wolf's _Mage_ (which can be anywhere from cheesy to fascinating,
depending on your gaming group), or researching magical traditions for
Shadowrun.

There's a lot of fascinating stuff out there in anthropology, if you're
willing to dig into it, and if you're fortunate enough to have a good
occult bookstore in your neighborhood you can learn a fair amount from
just browsing the shelves. I found a good class in "Magic, Religion, and
Witchcraft" when I went to UCSB, with a really nutty professor (Madsen)
who just loved to talk about painful aboriginal initiation rituals to
make people wince.

If you are interested in the modern practice of magic and whether or not
it produces results in the 1990's or has ever done so in the past, there
are plenty of places to discuss it, but that's off-topic for the
SHADOWRN list. Steve's article on the Many Masks of Magic (at
<http://www.arc.unm.edu/~james/skenson/traditions.html>;) covers pretty
much everything I've ever heard of, and will give you good keywords for
hunting things down on the web. I don't know of any particular magical
tradition that will give you Steve's apparent breadth of knowledge--
I suspect you have to be doing upper-division or graduate work in
anthropology or just have a really big curiosity bump to pick that
much up. :-) Me, I just have the big curiosity bump.

If you're looking for some fiction to flavor your view of magic,
pick up John Crowley's _Little, Big_ for hermetica and faeries,
Tim Powers' _On Stranger Tides_ for voodoo pirates, and Neil Gaiman's
work on the _Sandman_ comic for all kinds of fascinating stuff.
If you want to get into the more anthropological end, pick up
Joseph Campbell's _The Hero With a Thousand Faces_ and start digging
from there.

If you're thinking about Tarot-based mages, Tim Powers' _Last Call_ is
an excellent look at the world of the Tarot and the Fisher King.

--
%% Max Rible %% slothman@*****.com %% http://www.amurgsval.org/~slothman/ %%
%% "Ham is good... Glowing *tattooed* ham is *bad*!" - the Tick %%
Message no. 23
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:26:14 -0500
----------
> From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>

> > How do you know so much about "real" magic? I've always wondered
this,
> > because I doubt FASA pays you enough to simply "become" a magic
scholar.
> > Do you practice Wicca or something? (I doubt seriously I phrased
that
> > properly) You seem to have a knowledge about "real" magic traditions
above
> > and beyond that of most mere mortals.
> >
> I am going to answer this for Steve, but not directly. THIS TOPIC got
way out
> of hand as I recall a year or so ago. There are many beliefs running
around,
> that much is certain.

Ummm, K? As much as I dislike disagreeing with you, I think he was just
wondering where Steve was coming from, not trying to start any debates on
the reality behind magic. After all, if Steve is writing from a
fundamentalist Baptist viewpoint, we're going to have a much different
supplement than if he were a Thelemic magician, Druid, Native American
shaman, new-age crystal-waver, or professed skeptic. After all, take a
look at Palladium. In terms of real-world magical traditions, Kevin
Siembieda has, at best, an armchair magician's knowledge. He's not a
practitioner, doesn't believe in it, and actively discourages it in the
front of all his books. That leads to a substantially different magic
system than Shadowrun, which was (IIRC), partially conceived by a couple
of Thelemic magicians.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
aka Ellegon
ICQ 8108180 AIM: Nexx3
How many Druids does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
Doesn't happen. Druids screw in stone circles, not lightbulbs.
--------[Geek Code Block]-----------
GED/GSS d- s++:+ a-- C++ W w+ PS+.5 PE- Y+ t+
5+ X+ R*+.5 !tv+ b+.5 DI+ D- G e h !r-- !y+
-------[End Geek Code Block]-------
Message no. 24
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:48:03 -0600
At 16:54 13/05/98 -0400, you wrote:

>How do you know so much about "real" magic? I've always wondered this,
>because I doubt FASA pays you enough to simply "become" a magic scholar.
>Do you practice Wicca or something? (I doubt seriously I phrased that
>properly) You seem to have a knowledge about "real" magic traditions above
>and beyond that of most mere mortals.

From the interview with Stve Kenson in The Shadowrun Supplemental #4:
(Conducted by Steve Ratkovich, copyrighted by Steve Kenson, Steve
Ratkovich, and Adam Jury, collectively.)

Q: What is one thing about you that we never needed to know?

A: Laughs Where to begin? I suppose that I am a practicing pagan with a
mostly Celtic/Nordic background. I bring a fair amount of real-world
mythology and magical theory into my Shadowrun work. One of the things
I've always liked about the Shadowrun magic system is how it models parts
of how real pagans and magicians believe magic works. I try to be
respectful in my use of different pagan faiths and traditions in the game,
just as a Christian would be portraying his religion in a game setting. I
think there is such a thing as too much realism in a game like Shadowrun,
though. At least part of the heritage of Shadowrun's magic system is
fantasy wizards chucking fireballs and magic missiles. I've played around
with a more "realistic" magic system for Shadowrun but, honestly, real
magic works very subtly through coincidence and happenstance without all of
the cool special effects. It's just too slow and boring for most gamers
(including me) to put up with! I want my street mage to be able to throw
lightning bolts, damn it!


-J
-
http://www.interware.it/users/adamj \ fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ# 2350330
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ FreeRPG Webring \ TSS Productions
The Shadowrun Supplemental \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ RPGA Reviwer
Message no. 25
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:09:10 -0400
|> From: Alfredo B Alves
|> Sent: May 13, 1998 1:49 PM
|> Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR

|> Right now, I've only got the RM book to go on and the original Spell
|> Lists were 1 list for each of the suits (rods, swords, cups, pentacles)
|> plus Major and Minor Arcana each had their own spell lists... btw, Cups
|> in the RM was clearly health oriented... Swords should be changed to go
|> with Combat enhancing Spells / Wind elementals / elemental effects ...
|> Rods or pentacles would be manipulations ... Rods associated with
|> elemental Fire, Pentacles with earth and cups with water ... :/ oh
|> well...

Well, for what it's worth, if you have any questions, you can ask me. I
am currently studying the Hermetic Tarot so could possibly answer any
question, at the very least, I know where to run and find the answers.
<grin>

-M
Message no. 26
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 04:07:57 -0400
At 03:16 PM 5/13/98 -0800, you wrote:
>At 18:15 5/13/98 EDT, Ereskanti insinuated:

>>I am going to answer this for Steve, but not directly. THIS TOPIC got
way out
>>of hand as I recall a year or so ago. There are many beliefs running
around,
>>that much is certain.

Easy there Keith. I was near ground-zero at the very first magic vs.
magick debate this list had. I have no intentions of repeating that less
than enjoyable experience. I know there are people out there that believe
magick really exists and that they have "cast spells" for lack of a better
term. Then there are those, such as myself, that don't really believe
magic exists, let alone alien abductions.

But I'm a self-described gnostic, so I'm open to the possibility. To each
their own.

<snipped Max's many thoughtful sentences>

I know a bit about magic from anthropology and various differnet books and
films and documentaries. I'm a strong skeptic about it being "real"
though, so that's my personal bias, which certainly colors how I understand
that information.

I saw Steve's Many Masks of Magic within days of him posting it up on the
Internet and AOL. Good treatise and I never figured out why it never made
it into Awakenings.

But having had discussions with Steve over the past several years about
magic, I'm continually amazed about how much he knows about it, from SR
magic to "real" magic(k).

I'm just curious, and I suspect the list is also somewhat curious, to know
how it is that he knows so much. Did he study anthropology? Did he start
with Ars Magica like Max did and go from there? Is he Wiccan? Simple
curiosity. Not much more than that.

Erik J.


"Ladies & Gentleman, the newest member of the band, the one and only Spice
Boy, GRUMPY SPICE!!!" <and the crowd goes wild!!!>
Message no. 27
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 00:32:30 -0500
On Wed, 13 May 1998 23:09:10 -0400 Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET> writes:
>|> From: Alfredo B Alves
>|> Sent: May 13, 1998 1:49 PM
>|> Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
>|> Right now, I've only got the RM book to go on and the original Spell
>|> Lists were 1 list for each of the suits (rods, swords, cups,
pentacles)
>|> plus Major and Minor Arcana each had their own spell lists... btw,
Cups
>|> in the RM was clearly health oriented... Swords should be changed to
go
>|> with Combat enhancing Spells / Wind elementals / elemental effects
...
>|> Rods or pentacles would be manipulations ... Rods associated with
>|> elemental Fire, Pentacles with earth and cups with water ... :/ oh
>|> well...

> Well, for what it's worth, if you have any questions, you can ask
me. I
>am currently studying the Hermetic Tarot so could possibly answer any
>question, at the very least, I know where to run and find the answers.
><grin>
>
>-M

Cool ... Did ya catch the post for MC 23 that described the RM
Tarotmages? RM (RM = RoleMaster for those who don't know, btw) stated
that there were other ways to interpret the Tarot and for this conversion
thingy I plan on sticking to RM's version as much as possible (Some thing
create problems like the Minor Arcana Spells basically cast a random
spell based on the suit drawm and the Major Arcana spells summon other
professions! ... I am *not* gonna give the PC the ability to summon a
physad, Shaman, Hermetic MAge, Street Sam, etc ...) Well, I welcome your
comments but I don't really know any specific questions to ask ... :/

BTW, if you missed the aforementioned post for MC23, I can send it to you
off list If you want ...

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum)

_____________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 28
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 06:08:33 -0500
> Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR (Alfredo B Alves , Wed 12:49)

> ??? what do you mean good flaw? Do you mean take a geasa and get x build
> points? ... if so I agree ... :/
>
> D.Ghost
> (aka Pixel, Tantrum)

That's exactly my meaning:

Variable point flaw: Learned Geas: The magician learned thier magic
with a limitation, and must take a geas. Physical adepts can not take
this flaw, and physical mages must apply it to “active” magic.
The flaw is worth 1 point, plus another point if the character is a
“full mage”, plus another point if the geas can not ever be "shed", as
with initiation.
Particular geas may be worth an extra point, if they negatively affect
magic often in gameplay. Examples include:
Always Using a particular ACTIVE foci, or not allowing foci use at all
Not allocating any spell defense
Loud incantations
heavy, cumbersome, or fragile talismans / required objects
pacifism (cannot take flaw points for pacifism also)


So your full hermetic mage, if he took the geas flaw, and the geas was
Tarot use, would get 3 build points- full mage with a unsheadble geas
that is not particularly hard to deal with.

Then you'd want some aplicable edges, I suppose...
Message no. 29
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:46:39 -0400
|> From: Erik Jameson
|> Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR

|> Are we talking black or blue? Maybe the new BBB is something else, like
|> white or green or purple...

Oh no, not the Gigantic Green Grimoire

-M
Message no. 30
From: TalonMail <TalonMail@***.COM>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:35:18 EDT
>How do you know so much about "real" magic? I've always wondered this,
>because I doubt FASA pays you enough to simply "become" a magic scholar.
>Do you practice Wicca or something? (I doubt seriously I phrased that
>properly) You seem to have a knowledge about "real" magic traditions above
>and beyond that of most mere mortals.

I may have mentioned this on the list before, but I am a pagan in real life. I
started out practicing Golden Dawn-style Hermetic magic but I've gotten away
from the heavily ceremonial stuff and more into neo-pagan and Chaos Magic
(based on the works of authors like Phil Hine and Peter Carroll). I'm not a
Wiccan myself, but I have a lot of close Wiccan friends. I also celebrate the
Wiccan/pagan holidays (the fire festivals, the solstices and the equinoxes).

My personal "Hermetic Library" spans a long bookshelf and I use it to as a
resource to draw on for Shadowrun ideas, too. Of course, real magic has very
little in common with the fireball and turn-to-goo fantasy magic of Shadowrun
beyond a few basic concepts. As one author put it, "real magic is rarely so
spectacular, because it doesn't need to be."

For those concerned, this is not intended to spark off debates about "real
magic" on the list. If anyone wants to chat about it, they can email me
directly.

Okay, okay, back to work on SR3 magic.

Steve
(who can't wait to get the magic chapter done so he can work on the new stuff
for the Magic in the Shadows book...)
Message no. 31
From: Wolfchild <nathan.olsen@*******.MSUS.EDU>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:50:50 -0500
From: Alfredo B Alves
> Right now, I've only got the RM book to go on and the original Spell
> Lists were 1 list for each of the suits (rods, swords, cups, pentacles)
> plus Major and Minor Arcana each had their own spell lists... btw, Cups
> in the RM was clearly health oriented... Swords should be changed to go
> with Combat enhancing Spells / Wind elementals / elemental effects ...
> Rods or pentacles would be manipulations ... Rods associated with
> elemental Fire, Pentacles with earth and cups with water ... :/ oh
> well...

just to clear some of this up, elemental water is traditionally associated
with health magick in most pagan traditions. however i do not feel that
rpg magic really needs to copy traditional magick. i mean how boring
would that be? when i roleplay, i want to throw fireballs and lightning
bolts dammit!

having said that, i suggest using the elemental associations used in tarot
with the spell catagories normally used in SR. (ie. wands-fire-combat,
cups-water-illusion, swords-air-detection, pentacles-earth-manipulation)
this still leaves the major arcana, which many people seem to be having a
hard time finding a use for. why not use them for conjuring? that seems
to make perfect sense to me.

minor arcana --> spellcasting
major arcana --> conjuring

it's simple and it stays fairly honest to both SR and tarot.

Wolfchild
--
+ . . . ' . . . There are nights when the
` . .` : ' . + wolves are silent
+ . . . , , . And only the moon howls.
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. - ,; .' _, `, ._ - . E-MAIL
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Message no. 32
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: RM Tarot Mage in SR
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 19:42:03 EDT
In a message dated 5/13/98 6:27:34 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
nexx@********.NET writes:

> Ummm, K? As much as I dislike disagreeing with you, I think he was
> just
> wondering where Steve was coming from, not trying to start any debates on
> the reality behind magic. After all, if Steve is writing from a
> fundamentalist Baptist viewpoint, we're going to have a much different
> supplement than if he were a Thelemic magician, Druid, Native American
> shaman, new-age crystal-waver, or professed skeptic.

I know/knew that, and have no problem. I was merely trying to reinstate the
original cautions/warning signs just in case sort of thing.

-K

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about RM Tarot Mage in SR, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

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