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Message no. 1
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Rocket pods (Was Invincible mage problem)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 03:11:09 +0000
> > Other way.. I guess I mentioned a version a bit furteher up. Get a
> > yellowjacket with a few rocket pods and a very good gunner, and let
> > rip. (Those rocket pods are nice. Let's say he fires 12.7 ripples
> > with 8 successes.. 5*5%D. (And two scattered hits.). He's just got
> > 14 armor, right? :]
> Those rockets are 7D each, 5+ success means all 5 in the ripple hit
> for a 35D explosion, oops. Expensive sure but just the thing when a
> 'mobmaster / Dragon / Banshee LAV / super badguy from hell' comes
> around the corner :)
I checked, and yep, they're 7D. I've always been thinking 5. Dunno
why. I don't mind... :)

Question: The added explosive power of these missiles.. what is its
effect on hardened armor?. If you hit for, say, 35, and the target
has hardened - 8 armor, does the armor stop it with no damage or is
the target a seriously dead person/thing/whatever? And what happens
to power reduction per M radius.. -1/missile/m, or -1/m, or what?

Not too much is written about these weapons which is potentially the
most powerful in the game... can you fire two ripples of 12.7
missiles, and count as if it's one ripple? (If you get 10 successes,
10 missiles hit?).

--
Rune Fostervoll

"But the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have,
Than fly to others that we no not of."
Message no. 2
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Rocket pods (Was Invincible mage problem)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:03:10 GMT
Rune Fostervoll writes

> I checked, and yep, they're 7D. I've always been thinking 5. Dunno
> why. I don't mind... :)
>
> Question: The added explosive power of these missiles.. what is its
> effect on hardened armor?. If you hit for, say, 35, and the target
> has hardened - 8 armor, does the armor stop it with no damage or is
> the target a seriously dead person/thing/whatever?
I believe these things are treated as a single 35D hit. Ie compare
the total code to the hardened armour. Which IMHO makes sense as
these things are fitted to choppers in real life for tank busting,
and are VERY effective.

> And what happens
> to power reduction per M radius.. -1/missile/m, or -1/m, or what?
um. not to sure. Try reading the base stuff about them in RBB and SR
updates.

>
> Not too much is written about these weapons which is potentially the
> most powerful in the game... can you fire two ripples of 12.7
> missiles, and count as if it's one ripple? (If you get 10 successes,
> 10 missiles hit?).
According to the rules maximum one 'ripple' as designated by FASA.
Yes in theory yo can hust keep shooting but beyond a certain point
more complex and realistic rules would be needed to avoid 'l have
500K yen i fire .... rockets at the .... and reroll till they hit. It
dies' Sure these thing do kill nearly anything but effectiveness does
not go up linearly with missiles after a point.

Mark
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Rocket pods (Was Invincible mage problem)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:34:45 +0100
Mark Steedman said on 12:03/12 Jun 97...

> I believe these things are treated as a single 35D hit. Ie compare
> the total code to the hardened armour. Which IMHO makes sense as
> these things are fitted to choppers in real life for tank busting,
> and are VERY effective.

Actually, they're not so effective... AH-1G HueyCobras during the later
years in Vietnam engaged several Type 59 MBTs (Chinese copy of the Russian
T-54/T-55) with 70 mm Hydra rockets, and had to fire literally loads of
them to cause sufficient damage to stop them. UH-1s with prototype TOW
launchers proved a lot more efficient.
12.7 cm would be more effective because they are larger and can have a
bigger warhead fitted, but I have a feeling many would end up close, but
not close enough, to the target. (Okay, all it takes is one rocket in the
right place, and if you fire enough that's bound to happen.)

For simplicity's sake, though, you could add them all up and compare that
to the armor rating to see if a vehicle gets damaged.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Drowning in the main-stream.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 4
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Rocket pods (Was Invincible mage problem)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 19:32:50 +0100
In message <199706120114.DAA00339@***.uio.no>, Rune Fostervoll
<runefo@***.UIO.NO> writes
>Question: The added explosive power of these missiles.. what is its
>effect on hardened armor?. If you hit for, say, 35, and the target
>has hardened - 8 armor, does the armor stop it with no damage or is
>the target a seriously dead person/thing/whatever?

Given that in real life, these weapons will kill heavily armoured
vehicles easily, I'd say you took the _total_ power and worked from
there.

>And what happens
>to power reduction per M radius.. -1/missile/m, or -1/m, or what?

That's trickier. I'd be inclined to -1/m total, making them dangerous
over a large area when well-aimed.

>Not too much is written about these weapons which is potentially the
>most powerful in the game... can you fire two ripples of 12.7
>missiles, and count as if it's one ripple? (If you get 10 successes,
>10 missiles hit?).

In real life, certainly, but then that _really_ gets nasty: I've seen a
picture of a A-4 Skyhawk carrying twelve pods of rockets (a triple
carrier on each of the four pylons) and yes, you can salvo the whole lot
at once.

By SR rules that would get downright nuclear :)
>
--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 5
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Rocket pods (Was Invincible mage problem)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:42:54 +0100
In message <199706122033.WAA18165@**********.xs4all.nl>, Gurth
<gurth@******.NL> writes
>Actually, they're not so effective... AH-1G HueyCobras during the later
>years in Vietnam engaged several Type 59 MBTs (Chinese copy of the Russian
>T-54/T-55) with 70 mm Hydra rockets, and had to fire literally loads of
>them to cause sufficient damage to stop them.

Those were armed with fragmentation warheads, not particularly efficient
against armour (intended for area effect). The modern M261 70mm rocket
carries eleven multipurpose bomblets per rocket, and dispenses them over
the target area: shaped-charge grenades in fragmentation jackets with
incendiary kickers, attacking the tank's top armour.

Ouch.

>UH-1s with prototype TOW
>launchers proved a lot more efficient.

Yep, as did hasty AH-1/TOW conversions, as did improving the rockets.

>12.7 cm would be more effective because they are larger and can have a
>bigger warhead fitted, but I have a feeling many would end up close, but
>not close enough, to the target. (Okay, all it takes is one rocket in the
>right place, and if you fire enough that's bound to happen.)

Or you use submunition warheads so that "close" is good enough and it's
suddenly raining bomblets on the target.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 6
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Rocket pods (Was Invincible mage problem)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 07:23:19 -0600
| Mark Steedman said on 12:03/12 Jun 97...
|
| > I believe these things are treated as a single 35D hit. Ie compare
| > the total code to the hardened armour. Which IMHO makes sense as
| > these things are fitted to choppers in real life for tank busting,
| > and are VERY effective.

I would check for scatter for free flight rockets, maybe 1d6 instead
of 2d6. Even then would have the target make a body check vs each
rocket individually. In the case of the Hardened Armor 8
vehicle/critter I would go by the rules and treat the rockets as a
BF/AF weapon, because that's what they are, a burst of rockets.

BTW, I would let the gunner/driver spend a complex action to set how
many rockets he want to fire when he pulls the trigger (a simple
action if rigged).

-David
--
"What's the point spread on World War III?"
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 7
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Rocket pods (Was Invincible mage problem)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:13:37 GMT
David Buehrer writes

> | Mark Steedman said on 12:03/12 Jun 97...
> |
> | > I believe these things are treated as a single 35D hit. Ie compare
> | > the total code to the hardened armour. Which IMHO makes sense as
> | > these things are fitted to choppers in real life for tank busting,
> | > and are VERY effective.
>
> I would check for scatter for free flight rockets, maybe 1d6 instead
> of 2d6.
I don't remember what the rules have to say about these things and
scatter, but if you get enough success for several to hit (1 rocket
hits per success) i don't think they will scatter given FASA's usual
rules on such things.

> Even then would have the target make a body check vs each
> rocket individually.
The rules say xD/rocket which implies you add them up, unlike any
other weapon.

> In the case of the Hardened Armor 8
> vehicle/critter I would go by the rules and treat the rockets as a
> BF/AF weapon, because that's what they are, a burst of rockets.
The rules treat these things differently. That is a 12.7cm rocket we
are talking about, these things are each as big as your average ATGM
(Great Dragon in fields of fire being 20D APDS) are are fired in
bursts. Adimitedly in real wars a lot of the anti armour
effectiveness come from the fact they are fired from a 'top attack
angle' onto the top of MBT's negating most of the effect of sloping
the tanks armour relative to the typical trajectory of an inconing
shell from another tank.

>
> BTW, I would let the gunner/driver spend a complex action to set how
> many rockets he want to fire when he pulls the trigger (a simple
> action if rigged).
ssuming you don't want to fire the whole ripple, or you haven't
preset the number to fire ok. In the case of a manned turret you
could use a smartgun linkage to get a free action setup.

Mark
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Rocket pods (Was Invincible mage problem)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:18:11 +0100
Mark Steedman said on 11:13/17 Jun 97...

> > I would check for scatter for free flight rockets, maybe 1d6 instead
> > of 2d6.
> I don't remember what the rules have to say about these things and
> scatter, but if you get enough success for several to hit (1 rocket
> hits per success) i don't think they will scatter given FASA's usual
> rules on such things.

This is from page 107 of the RBB: every success rolled is one rocket that
hits, and the rest scatter for 3D6 meters each. Then,the Power Levels are
added together for the ones that hit, while the rest do blast damage two
levels lower than normal (a 7D rocket will do 7M) with a blast reduction
of -1 per 4 meters.
This would subject anyone in the vicinity of the target to a lot of 7Ms
(or 3Ms for 7.62 cm rockets) at varying distances, making a ripple of any
size a nightmare if you want to work out its damage to any given target
precisely, unless all rockets hit that is.

> > Even then would have the target make a body check vs each
> > rocket individually.
> The rules say xD/rocket which implies you add them up, unlike any
> other weapon.

See above.

> The rules treat these things differently. That is a 12.7cm rocket we
> are talking about, these things are each as big as your average ATGM
> (Great Dragon in fields of fire being 20D APDS) are are fired in
> bursts.

The reduction in Damage Level seems to suggest they have some kind of
warhead (HEAT?) intended to cause more damage to a target that takes a
direct hit, than to bystanders.

> Adimitedly in real wars a lot of the anti armour effectiveness come from
> the fact they are fired from a 'top attack angle' onto the top of MBT's
> negating most of the effect of sloping the tanks armour relative to the
> typical trajectory of an inconing shell from another tank.

Rockets fired from helicopters, and especially fixed-wing aircraft, would
likely also strike the top of a vehicle, in addition to the sides.
However, like Paul Adams said modern anti-vehicle rockets are mini cluster
bombs that eject a number of bomblets over the target, rather than rely on
blast or a lucky hit from a HEAT warhead to penetrate the armor. SR's
rockets seem to be of that latter category, which has the potential of
requiring a whole helicopterload of rockets to knock out an AFV.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Drowning in the main-stream.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 9
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Rocket pods (Was Invincible mage problem)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:40:33 GMT
Gurth writes
>
> This is from page 107 of the RBB: every success rolled is one rocket that
> hits, and the rest scatter for 3D6 meters each. Then,the Power Levels are
> added together for the ones that hit, while the rest do blast damage two
> levels lower than normal (a 7D rocket will do 7M) with a blast reduction
> of -1 per 4 meters.
Ah well i didn't have the bok beside me when posting.

> This would subject anyone in the vicinity of the target to a lot of 7Ms
> (or 3Ms for 7.62 cm rockets) at varying distances, making a ripple of any
> size a nightmare if you want to work out its damage to any given target
> precisely, unless all rockets hit that is.
>
I have only seem these things used about twice and made sure they all
hit. It can get worse you know, someone decided to fire a Darkstorm FA
grenade launcher at a woodend building with nearly zero compensation,
needless to say he missed!! 15m short oops were it not for the fact
that was right in the middle of the copse the enemy with the panther
cannon 'had' been hiding in.

> The reduction in Damage Level seems to suggest they have some kind of
> warhead (HEAT?) intended to cause more damage to a target that takes a
> direct hit, than to bystanders.
That would seem logical and HEAT is the reasonable chioce for a
'cheap' weapon.

> Rockets fired from helicopters, and especially fixed-wing aircraft, would
> likely also strike the top of a vehicle, in addition to the sides.
> However, like Paul Adams said modern anti-vehicle rockets are mini cluster
> bombs that eject a number of bomblets over the target, rather than rely on
> blast or a lucky hit from a HEAT warhead to penetrate the armor. SR's
> rockets seem to be of that latter category, which has the potential of
> requiring a whole helicopterload of rockets to knock out an AFV.
>
Which may well happen in SR given the APC in fields of fire has 12
points of armour which is lots for SR, plus 4 body and it looks awful
like an M113 which in military terms has a 'tinfoil' armour rating.
So yes extrapolation armour factors you could need to hit with 10
rockets to kill an MBT, which in reality means firing a lot more than
that, again SR always stresses accuratcy over quantity which is not
true of weapons of this type.

Mark

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