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Message no. 1
From: Jak Koke jak@****.org
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:04:51 -0700
Wow, I've been getting a lot of heat on the list (with some exceptions) for
the fact that the Dragon Heart Saga revealed or touched on the larger plots
in the SR Universe and thus shut out players from participating. So I'd like
to get some feedback since I'm in the process of writing another novel right
now.

Traditionally the novels have focused on a small corner of the SR Universe,
plots and characters which had negligible impact on the larger picture. In
some novels, the big players were involved but the outcome of the novel
could be easily ignored by players and GMs if they so desired. When Burning
Bright came along, that changed somewhat, although that novel set up a
situation (Bug City) and did not resolve it, leaving to PCs to play in it
for a couple of years. The Bug City resolution came in a sourcebook without
a lot of details.

When I wrote Dead Air, I followed the "small-plot" model. I invented
characters and designed a story which would have little impact on the SR
Universe as a whole. However, when FASA decided that it was time for an
event in SR that would jump start the line (which was stagnant and losing
sales), they invited me to participate (in addition to Steve Kenson and Paul
Hume). A series of brainstorming meetings at FASA with the three of us and
about six or eight members of FASA's staff (including Mike Mulvihill and
Jordan Weisman) resulted in the plot for the election of Dunkelzahn and the
assassination at GenCon. It was decided then that players would get a chance
to participate in all of this part by including ballots in sourcebooks and
allowing voting at GenCon, by publishing Super Tuesday and GMing an election
related run as part of the GenCon tournament.

It was also decided that I would write a trilogy of novels which would
eventually reveal how Dunkelzahn was assassinated and why. The trilogy also
needed to correct the trend of tying Shadowrun to Earthdawn too closely,
weeding out the plots involving Horrors, not completely, but enough so that
individual GMs could decide how much of ED to use in their campaigns. The
trilogy was supposed to be high powered and epic in scale (something which
had not been done in SR before). I crafted the novels to fulfill those
objectives, frequently consulting with Mike Mulvihill to make sure that I
didn't contradict anything in the game products. By delaying the release of
the trilogy, FASA hoped that it would give players time to use Dunkelzahn's
Will and the many, many plot hooks there in their campaigns. Stranger Souls
didn't come out until nearly a year after Dunkelzahn's Will and it took six
months for the whole trilogy to be released.

In many ways the Dragon Heart Saga was an experiment, and from most of the
feedback that I've seen (sent to me, to FASA and on the list) the experiment
was successful. However, there are obviously those who don't appreciate the
trilogy <laughing at understatement>.

So my question is, finally, what role do you believe the SR novels should
play in the larger plots of the SR Universe?

Jak Koke
http://www.koke.org/jak/
Message no. 2
From: Jarmo Karonen jarmo.karonen@***.fi
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:45:26 +0300
On Monday I had some trouble with my email, and never got a chance to
reply to Koke's post. Then I forgot... until now. I'm surprised that
nobody else has replied... come on, what's wrong with you guys?!?

Jak asked:
- - -
So my question is, finally, what role do you believe the SR novels
should
play in the larger plots of the SR Universe?
- - -

In my opinion as big as possible. I love epic plots, and I haven't seen
enough highlevel novel stuff coming from FASA. That's also why I usually
don't buy FASA novels. I only own Burning Bright and Dragonheart
Trilogy.

So, I think that a way to make a real Shadowrun novel seller is to make
it as epic as possible. I'm a proof of that: if there wouldn't have been
that major plotline factor in place, I wouldn't have bought the novels.
And those who usually buy novels, did buy Dragonheart-books also... Am I
right?

I really can't see the problem with big plot novels because if you take
any adventures FASA has published, players really can't shape the world
even in them. It's always Harlequin or some such whose making all the
decisions, and player characters are in them just as sidekicks.

Still, I'm not complaining about the modules either. What I'm saying is
that we're lucky to get Treats, PoaD and Dragonheart Trilogy. I have
loved to read all of them and using them as a springboard for my own
ideas. I mean, whose to say, that events in Dragonheart Trilogy have to
happen in your campaing as well? As a matter of fact, gamemasters could
take Ryan and rest of the Assets-bunch out and put their own PCs in
place instead of them.

Of course, this all needs a little foreplanning, and that's why I prefer
to run my campaings some years behind FASA's current relieses...

Would someone like to argue with me...?

Jak: did I make myself clear...? My english can really suck sometimes...
:(

- J. Karonen
Message no. 3
From: Kelson kelson13@*******.com
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:45:51 -0700
On Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:45:26 Jarmo Karonen wrote:

>In my opinion as big as possible. I love epic plots, and I haven't seen
>enough highlevel novel stuff coming from FASA. That's also why I usually
>don't buy FASA novels. I only own Burning Bright and Dragonheart
>Trilogy.

I'm quite the opposite, actually. I prefer the more gritty novels that don't always make
the main characters marionettes, etc.

>So, I think that a way to make a real Shadowrun novel seller is to make
>it as epic as possible. I'm a proof of that: if there wouldn't have been
>that major plotline factor in place, I wouldn't have bought the novels.
>And those who usually buy novels, did buy Dragonheart-books also... Am I
>right?

Not I. I didn't buy any novels in the Dragonheart series (trilogy?). I like the ones
written by Mel Odum, Stephen Kenson, Nigel Findley, and some others who write less epic
novels and more down-in-the-trenches "hands on" type ones.

>I really can't see the problem with big plot novels because if you take
>any adventures FASA has published, players really can't shape the world
>even in them. It's always Harlequin or some such whose making all the
>decisions, and player characters are in them just as sidekicks.

Yeah, but that last part really kills me sometimes. However, I don't see the problem with
novels being used to discuss plotlines in SR more (or cover them in more detail, etc.)

After all, it might be nice to see a novel covering some of the major elements already
taking place SR (Burning Bright, one of my SR favorites, is a good example of this.)

>Still, I'm not complaining about the modules either. What I'm saying is
>that we're lucky to get Treats, PoaD and Dragonheart Trilogy. I have
>loved to read all of them and using them as a springboard for my own
>ideas. I mean, whose to say, that events in Dragonheart Trilogy have to
>happen in your campaing as well? As a matter of fact, gamemasters could
>take Ryan and rest of the Assets-bunch out and put their own PCs in
>place instead of them.

Yep, sure could. The thing to remember is that novels aren't canon. Add to this that GMs
can change any of the canon timeline events as desired, and you've got lots of freedom and
ideas to draw upon.

>Of course, this all needs a little foreplanning, and that's why I prefer
>to run my campaings some years behind FASA's current relieses...

I sometimes skip past things or start a campaign right before something major is going to
happen in the canon timeline. Also, there are things I have completely dropped from the
SR timeline and filled with other material as needed.

>Would someone like to argue with me...?

Well, you've got my take on it. Not really an argument though. ;)

>Jak: did I make myself clear...? My english can really suck sometimes...
>:(

You're coming through just fine. :)

>- J. Karonen

Justin


--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Message no. 4
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:51:28 -0500
> Jak asked:
> - - -
> So my question is, finally, what role do you believe the SR novels
> should
> play in the larger plots of the SR Universe?
> - - -
>
None at all. SR novels suck ass, despite what you people may believe. In
fact, all gaming fiction sucks ass. I don't expect a literature from an
instruction book (which is essentially what the game books are), but from a
novel I do, and sorry, but none of the authors that work for FASA can be
considered great writers. I can't stand to read a book that's poorly
written. Now, if you enjoy the SR novels, more power to you. Enjoy them. And
I'm glad FASA's making money on them so that they'll keep pumping out SR RPG
books. But do not include the novel's in the overall plot.

Another reason the novels shouldn't be included in the SR storyline is that
this is the big problem with comics, too. How many of you hate those cross
over things do you like? Sometimes they're interesting because they team up
interesting characters, but most of the time, you have to buy thirty other
issues of comics that you don't care for in order to figure out what's going
on. I shouldn't have to buy a novel I don't want to read just to figure out
what the hell is happening.

I've been with SR since '89. I own every SR book. But, in the current
storyline, I have no idea what's going on. Why? Because apparently I missed
some very important novels that explained some stuff. That doesn't seem
fair. I've already purchased everything else, now you want me to buy into
your novels too?

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure several of the novels had some interesting
plots. And I'm sure that some of the characters were interesting. But,
please don't put the overarching plot into the novels. Enjoy them for their
own sake.
Message no. 5
From: Arclight arclight@**************.com
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:01:18 +0200
And finally, Jarmo Karonen expressed himself by writing:

[I like epic novels]

You know, within the first three novels I read,
2 dragons died, IIRC (Alamais and some feathered snake,
don't know the titles...). And I sat there, totally
startled, thinking something like "if I read 5 more
books, will SR have lost the dragon part?!?".
Though I liked the storytelling and characters,
I prefer -for gamemastering and reading- a lesser
level of "power", so to say. Not that epic novels
suck, I like the Dragonheart triology, but I think
a good story just doesn't need that. What would happen
if within every single novel, the heroes would save
earth, (meta)mankind, and the purity of magic?
It would bore most readers to death, IMO. Therefore,
a large quantity of the novels are "normal runs",
and these normal runs also make the epic ones stand
out.

> Would someone like to argue with me...?

Hmh, herewith you got my opinion. Go against it :)

> Jak: did I make myself clear...? My english can really suck sometimes...
> :(

I also typed this at the end of my first posts. I don't know if
I have improved since then, but stopped that because _if_ someone
doesn't understand me, he'll ask and I get another chance to explain :)

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
Wenn Du nen Freund brauchst, kauf dir nen Hund.
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 6
From: Rat winterhawk@*********.net
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:43:48 -0700
> From: Mark Fender <markf@******.com>

> >
> None at all. SR novels suck ass, despite what you people may believe. In
> fact, all gaming fiction sucks ass. I don't expect a literature from an
> instruction book (which is essentially what the game books are), but from a
> novel I do, and sorry, but none of the authors that work for FASA can be
> considered great writers.


Wow, *you* got up on the wrong side of the bed today, didn't
you?

You're certainly welcome to your opinion (and I agree with you
in some cases--some of the SR novels were pretty bad) but it's a
bit unfair to make sweeping statements like "all gaming fiction
sucks ass." Have you *read* all gaming fiction?

You expect great literature from every novel you read? Do
you also expect "great filmmaking" from every movie you go
see? Do you never just read a book or go see a movie for pure
escapist fun? I don't think anybody ever expected that SR novels
would be up for Pulitzer Prizes or anything--they're there to
supplement the game world, provide some extra info to spark
imagination, and just be fun. If you don't like 'em, that's cool.
But (and I'm not trying to suck up to Jak here, but hey...) it's
a little cold to respond to an author's question with "your
work sucks ass," yeah?

And as for the "despite what you people may believe" comment,
I don't recall anyone nominating you as Arbiter of Great
Literature (tm), and it's more than a bit insulting to anyone
who likes the SR novels (or any gaming novels for that matter)
to be told that if they don't agree with you, they're wrong.

Sorry about the rant...I think this might be the longest note
I've ever written on this list...but as a wannabe author myself,
I get a little defensive when people start making statements like
yours.

--Rat

=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>
Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
DOD#1211 1999 K1200RS - "Dunkelzahn"
"The pickles are staring at me..."
<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<=<
Message no. 7
From: 00DNA mcmanus@******.albany.edu
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 13:45:39 -0400
At 04:45 PM 7/15/99 +0300, Jarmo Karonen wrote:


>Jak asked:
>- - -
>So my question is, finally, what role do you believe the SR novels
>should
>play in the larger plots of the SR Universe?
>- - -
>
>In my opinion as big as possible. I love epic plots, and I haven't seen
>enough highlevel novel stuff coming from FASA. That's also why I usually
>don't buy FASA novels. I only own Burning Bright and Dragonheart
>Trilogy.

Hmm, I must have missed this letter then.
I agree and disagree with you.

I liked Burning Bright for what it did with the plot. And the Dragonheart
series answered a lot of questions. But I also like the books that I can
point to a new player and say there, that's a shadowrun team. The two
books from Mel Odem about Jack Skater and his group are somewhat of a good
example, if they didn't get so hung up on "emotional problems" (:

I have some players who haven't read any SR and are new to role-playing as
well, and they just have no clue as to how to go about it. I give them a
very basic simple straight forward run and they fumble around because they
have no clue on how to be a shadowrunner. I'm easy on them and we work
things through, but now they are all reading the SR novels and starting to
get more understanding of the world and can now interact in the game a bit
more. I think it allows them to envision the world a bit better and gets
them into "SR Mode". It seems that any of the books really do this for
them, the "epic books" or the "runner books".

Too much of a runner book can be boring however. I think some of the books
in the past have tried to do a "complicated simple plot" or something. I
think Fade to Black had some nice descriptions of how runner operate.
However, I couldn't even guess the plot of the book. No idea what so ever.

I think the first Trilogy was a very good set of books for new people. I'd
like to see another Trilogy in these terms. The books do turn epic but it
starts off with a guy just entering the shadows and pretty much
"game-level" characters. This trilogy is a bit outdated now, so I think it
would be nice to see a Trilogy based on a group of characters or an
individual, or both (: and see them go through a few things and maybe
something big overall. It would be a nice way of showing the SR world off
again, since there's been a few changes and hint at a few things to come,
like Year of the Comet.

Someone else went on a bit about how they feel like they are missing
because they don't read the novels. I don't mind having things covered in
novels, well ok...I generally like it...sometimes it's where it fits. But
in a way I do agree. I think in the past that the novels would introduce
you to things and then Sourcebooks and Adventures would give you the
answers and fill in the gaps.
2xS --> Universal Brotherhood
Burning Bright --> Bug City

I think that has pretty much changed now.
Everything about Dunkelzahn --> Dragonheart Series
Something from Threats --> Terminus Experiment.
others...

I'd like to see it go back the other way and then it's more fair for those
who do not read the novels, and also allows the GM's a bit more control if
they don't want to follow the canon timeline/events.

Also...books that are basically only written to support a sourcebook....

Atzlan Sourcebook & Bloodsport...
well...don't do that. Besides Bloodsport being poorly written IMO, it
didn't do anything besides talk about things in the Atzlan Sourcebook.
After reading this book, I had the opinion that someone asked Lisa Smedmen
to read the Atzlan Sourcebook and then write a book about it. And I wasn't
impressed with that.

And then...maybe another Short Story collection...that way I'd get a chance
to publish with FASA. haha. (:


--00DNA
"...user connection terminated."
Message no. 8
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 12:28:57 -0500
>On Monday I had some trouble with my email, and never got a
>chance to reply to Koke's post. Then I forgot... until now.
>I'm surprised that nobody else has replied... come on, what's
>wrong with you guys?!?

I never saw Jak's note, and never even knew he'd posted something until you
brought it up.

Patrick
Message no. 9
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 15:03:16 EDT
In a message dated 7/15/1999 8:57:50 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
jarmokaronen@***.fi writes:

>
> Would someone like to argue with me...?
>
> Jak: did I make myself clear...? My english can really suck sometimes...
> :(

I snipped the entire commentary concerning J. Karonen's opinions and likes
about the role of novels. I snipped it because I agree, overall, with it.

And, to comment on something I can't find now in the other window...I never
received Jak's initial post.

-K
Message no. 10
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 14:17:42 -0500
> > From: Mark Fender <markf@******.com>
>
> > >
> > None at all. SR novels suck ass, despite what you people may believe. In
> > fact, all gaming fiction sucks ass. I don't expect a literature from an
> > instruction book (which is essentially what the game books are), but
> from a
> > novel I do, and sorry, but none of the authors that work for FASA can be
> > considered great writers.
>
>
> Wow, *you* got up on the wrong side of the bed today, didn't
> you?
>
> You're certainly welcome to your opinion (and I agree with you
> in some cases--some of the SR novels were pretty bad) but it's a
> bit unfair to make sweeping statements like "all gaming fiction
> sucks ass." Have you *read* all gaming fiction?
>
No, I have not read all gaming fiction, but I have read a fair share from
several different companies. Some I just picked up, others were recommended,
and all of them sucked. Consider it my prejudice that all gaming fiction
sucks. I am partial to Michael Stackpole, as he can write a pretty decent
story but it still doesn't compare to your 'regular' literature.

> You expect great literature from every novel you read? Do
> you also expect "great filmmaking" from every movie you go
> see? Do you never just read a book or go see a movie for pure
> escapist fun? I don't think anybody ever expected that SR novels
> would be up for Pulitzer Prizes or anything--they're there to
> supplement the game world, provide some extra info to spark
> imagination, and just be fun. If you don't like 'em, that's cool.
> But (and I'm not trying to suck up to Jak here, but hey...) it's
> a little cold to respond to an author's question with "your
> work sucks ass," yeah?
>
Yes, I do *expect* great literature and great filmmaking every time I read
or see a movie. I am usually disappointed. Why give less than your best?
While FASA's motivation is to make money, the author's motivation is to tell
a good story. Most are not. Sometimes it is not great but I still enjoy it
(for pure escapism). However, I am much more forgiving when it comes to film
than books. Books require more effort to participate in. SR books might be
great "escapism" material, but I find it much harder to slog through bad
prose, bad description, and a lackluster plot than to simply enjoy it for
enjoyment's sake. And I don't expect Pulitzer Prizes for SR novels. That
would be silly and demean the award. I am happy SR produces fiction. That
means we'll be seeing more products for awhile to come, seeing as they keep
coming out with them. And, while I don't know Jak Koke, and, in all
truthfulness, have never read his novels, he did ask the question. Being a
published writer, he's probably used to bad reviews. While I certainly
didn't back up my presumptive comment with any background, I also didn't
direct it at him. Gaming novels in general.

> And as for the "despite what you people may believe" comment,
> I don't recall anyone nominating you as Arbiter of Great
> Literature (tm), and it's more than a bit insulting to anyone
> who likes the SR novels (or any gaming novels for that matter)
> to be told that if they don't agree with you, they're wrong.
>
That's cool. That's your opinion. And that was mine. I stand by it. I
presume you stand behind yours.

> Sorry about the rant...I think this might be the longest note
> I've ever written on this list...but as a wannabe author myself,
> I get a little defensive when people start making statements like
> yours.
>
While my comments may have been a bit harsh, I am glad they drew you out of
the woodwork. Otherwise, we couldn't discuss this. And that's what this list
is all about. Authors aren't known for their gregarious personalities. Glad
it drew you out. Welcome to the discussion.
Message no. 11
From: Daniel McManus mcmanus@******.albany.edu
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:00:51 -0400
At 03:03 PM 7/15/99 -0400, Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
>And, to comment on something I can't find now in the other window...I never
>received Jak's initial post.


Yeah, no kidding, something is definately going on with this list. I never
saw that letter either and I wrote this big letter of a reply and sent it
earlier...I have a copy of it in my outbox...and it never showed up on the
list...

--00DNA
Message no. 12
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:09:20 EDT
In a message dated 7/15/99 2:47:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, remo@***.net
writes:

>
> I never saw Jak's note, and never even knew he'd posted something until you
> brought it up.
same here, I musta missed that one <shrug> musta been skimming too fast
Message no. 13
From: Rat winterhawk@*********.net
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 17:28:55 -0700
> From: Mark Fender <markf@******.com>

>
> No, I have not read all gaming fiction, but I have read a fair share from
> several different companies. Some I just picked up, others were recommended,
> and all of them sucked. Consider it my prejudice that all gaming fiction
> sucks. I am partial to Michael Stackpole, as he can write a pretty decent
> story but it still doesn't compare to your 'regular' literature.
>

I don't think it's fair to compare it with "regular" literature.
Gaming fiction isn't designed to be literature. It's designed to
draw people into the game world and illustrate concepts from it.
I agree--I've never read a gaming novel (in any genre) that's
(IMO) qualified as "regular literature." But then again, I rarely
read "regular literature." I have limited free time (and frankly
I'd rather spend it writing than reading) and when I read I want
to escape. Does that mean really bad books don't bother me? No
way. For example, I thought "Shadowboxer" was one of the worst
novels (of any type) I've ever read, and "Psychotrope" wasn't
far behind. I nearly threw "The Forever Drug" across the room
several times because, while it wasn't awful, the sheer repetition
of certain words (variations of "frig") nearly drove me crazy.
But then again, "Burning Bright," "Wolf and Raven," and
"Crossroads" (not to mention the much-maligned "Dragon
Heart Saga") drew me in and kept me interested. Were they
great literature? No. Were they good gaming-fiction novels?
I thought so.

>
> Yes, I do *expect* great literature and great filmmaking every time I read
> or see a movie. I am usually disappointed.

I'm not surprised. I guess it would be hard to address this
without knowing your definition of "great literature" or "great
filmmaking," though.


> Why give less than your best?
> While FASA's motivation is to make money, the author's motivation is to tell
> a good story. Most are not. Sometimes it is not great but I still enjoy it
> (for pure escapism). However, I am much more forgiving when it comes to film
> than books. Books require more effort to participate in. SR books might be
> great "escapism" material, but I find it much harder to slog through bad
> prose, bad description, and a lackluster plot than to simply enjoy it for
> enjoyment's sake.

Somebody used to post movie reviews to Usenet where they would review
a movie against what was expected of it. For example, a good schlocky
movie that was *trying* to be a schlocky movie would be a "four-star
two-star movie" while a pretentions schlocky movie might be a "two-star
two-star movie" and something like "Schindler's List" would be a
"four-star four-star movie." I tend to think of gaming novels (and
other escapist fiction and films) by these terms. SR novels, in my
opinion, run from four- to one-star two-star books. They're not
trying to be anything more than what they are. Sometimes they succeed.
Sometimes they don't.


> And, while I don't know Jak Koke, and, in all
> truthfulness, have never read his novels, he did ask the question. Being a
> published writer, he's probably used to bad reviews. While I certainly
> didn't back up my presumptive comment with any background, I also didn't
> direct it at him. Gaming novels in general.
>

Sure, I understand that. My point was only that there are at least
two SR novel writers who frequent this list, and while I'll bet that
constructive criticism of the, "I hated your novel and here's why" is
something they both expect and welcome, the implication that their
work "sucks ass" (without any accompanying explanation as to why
you think so) is a little rude. But that's just my opinion, and
doesn't really matter one way or the other.


> >
> That's cool. That's your opinion. And that was mine. I stand by it. I
> presume you stand behind yours.
>

I do. Just clarifying: you're standing behind the opinion that
anyone who doesn't think the SR novels (and all gaming novels) "suck
ass" is wrong? If so, then...whatever floats your boat, I guess.


> >
> While my comments may have been a bit harsh, I am glad they drew you out of
> the woodwork. Otherwise, we couldn't discuss this. And that's what this list
> is all about. Authors aren't known for their gregarious personalities. Glad
> it drew you out. Welcome to the discussion.


Thanks. Every once in awhile I see a topic I can get into (as
opposed to all the tech and rules discussions which I tend to
scroll past).

--Rat

=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>=>
Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace - Shadowrun Fiction and More!
DOD#1211 1999 K1200RS - "Dunkelzahn"
"The pickles are staring at me..."
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Message no. 14
From: Jyster Cap jyster007@*****.com
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:32:24 -0400 (EDT)
> I don't think it's fair to compare it with "regular"
> literature.
> Gaming fiction isn't designed to be literature. It's
> designed to
> draw people into the game world and illustrate
> concepts from it.

The Hobbit, Sword of Shanarra
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Message no. 15
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 20:09:58 -0500
> > So my question is, finally, what role do you believe the SR novels
> > should play in the larger plots of the SR Universe?
>
> None at all. SR novels suck ass, despite what you people may believe.

Mark: Don't presume to speak for me, or to tell me what I may or may not
believe.

The rest of this post is pretty much your opinion, and you're entitled to
it, but this particular opening really managed to piss me off, which
influenced how I read the rest of your message.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 16
From: Jak Koke jak@****.org
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:04:51 -0700
Wow, I've been getting a lot of heat on the list (with some exceptions) for
the fact that the Dragon Heart Saga revealed or touched on the larger plots
in the SR Universe and thus shut out players from participating. So I'd like
to get some feedback since I'm in the process of writing another novel right
now.

Traditionally the novels have focused on a small corner of the SR Universe,
plots and characters which had negligible impact on the larger picture. In
some novels, the big players were involved but the outcome of the novel
could be easily ignored by players and GMs if they so desired. When Burning
Bright came along, that changed somewhat, although that novel set up a
situation (Bug City) and did not resolve it, leaving to PCs to play in it
for a couple of years. The Bug City resolution came in a sourcebook without
a lot of details.

When I wrote Dead Air, I followed the "small-plot" model. I invented
characters and designed a story which would have little impact on the SR
Universe as a whole. However, when FASA decided that it was time for an
event in SR that would jump start the line (which was stagnant and losing
sales), they invited me to participate (in addition to Steve Kenson and Paul
Hume). A series of brainstorming meetings at FASA with the three of us and
about six or eight members of FASA's staff (including Mike Mulvihill and
Jordan Weisman) resulted in the plot for the election of Dunkelzahn and the
assassination at GenCon. It was decided then that players would get a chance
to participate in all of this part by including ballots in sourcebooks and
allowing voting at GenCon, by publishing Super Tuesday and GMing an election
related run as part of the GenCon tournament.

It was also decided that I would write a trilogy of novels which would
eventually reveal how Dunkelzahn was assassinated and why. The trilogy also
needed to correct the trend of tying Shadowrun to Earthdawn too closely,
weeding out the plots involving Horrors, not completely, but enough so that
individual GMs could decide how much of ED to use in their campaigns. The
trilogy was supposed to be high powered and epic in scale (something which
had not been done in SR before). I crafted the novels to fulfill those
objectives, frequently consulting with Mike Mulvihill to make sure that I
didn't contradict anything in the game products. By delaying the release of
the trilogy, FASA hoped that it would give players time to use Dunkelzahn's
Will and the many, many plot hooks there in their campaigns. Stranger Souls
didn't come out until nearly a year after Dunkelzahn's Will and it took six
months for the whole trilogy to be released.

In many ways the Dragon Heart Saga was an experiment, and from most of the
feedback that I've seen (sent to me, to FASA and on the list) the experiment
was successful. However, there are obviously those who don't appreciate the
trilogy <laughing at understatement>.

So my question is, finally, what role do you believe the SR novels should
play in the larger plots of the SR Universe?

Jak Koke
http://www.koke.org/jak/
Message no. 17
From: DV8 gyro@********.co.za
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 09:42:38 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: Rat <winterhawk@*********.net>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Cc: shadorat@******.ba.best.com <shadorat@******.ba.best.com>
Date: 15 July 1999 06:51
Subject: RE: role of novels in SR universe

>Sorry about the rant...I think this might be the longest note
>I've ever written on this list...but as a wannabe author myself,
>I get a little defensive when people start making statements like
>yours.
> Rat - winterhawk@*********.net http://www.magespace.net

Perhaps as a wannabe author you should heed his warning and not get
trapped writing fan fiction
for someone else's worlds. I dont think the attack was aimed at
authors but more at the companies
that keep pushing out garbage novels with game logos tacked to the
front.

A great deal of game related fiction is way off standard IMHO. The
merchadising realities are
obvious, but I think FASA should stear clear of this. Not every game
has a watchdog group like us after all :)

- - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>

<hard@****>
Message no. 18
From: Jyster Cap jyster007@*****.com
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 05:22:03 -0400 (EDT)
> A great deal of game related fiction is way off
> standard IMHO. The
> merchadising realities are
> obvious, but I think FASA should stear clear of
> this. Not every game
> has a watchdog group like us after all :)
>
> - - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>

I agree some companies dont put out the best novels,
but I think theyre good enough for escapism.

Movie example: Star Wars The Phantom Menace, it wasnt
the greatest movie, but it was fun to enjoy.
Remember that movie was made for 12 yr olds not
the older fans of Star Wars.
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Message no. 19
From: Iridios iridios@*********.com
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:35:24 -0400
Mark Fender wrote:
>
> > > From: Mark Fender <markf@******.com>
> >
> > > >
> > > None at all. SR novels suck ass,
<snip>

> No, I have not read all gaming fiction, but I have read a fair share from
> several different companies. Some I just picked up, others were recommended,
> and all of them sucked. Consider it my prejudice that all gaming fiction
> sucks. I am partial to Michael Stackpole, as he can write a pretty decent
> story but it still doesn't compare to your 'regular' literature.

You need to remember two things about gaming novels. First, they
usually are considered pulp fiction, and are not intended to be great
works. Two, the authors are all constrained by the game universe as
set forth by the gaming company.

If an author were to write a 'regular' piece of literature set in SR,
he would probably take all kinds of liscence with the setting to make
it 'good'. Then most of the players of SR would cry out that his work
doesn't even fit into the SR world.

--
Iridios
"Accept what you cannot avoid,
Avoid what you cannot accept."
Message no. 20
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:33:49 -0500
> I do. Just clarifying: you're standing behind the opinion that
> anyone who doesn't think the SR novels (and all gaming novels) "suck
> ass" is wrong? If so, then...whatever floats your boat, I guess.
>
Actually, no: my opinion is that they should not publish the continuing
storyline in SR novels because they are intolerable to read. I was drawn
slightly off topic. But that is my opinion. Rebuttal?
Message no. 21
From: Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 08:40:54 -0500
> > > So my question is, finally, what role do you believe the SR novels
> > > should play in the larger plots of the SR Universe?
> >
> > None at all. SR novels suck ass, despite what you people may believe.
>
> Mark: Don't presume to speak for me, or to tell me what I may or may not
> believe.
>
> The rest of this post is pretty much your opinion, and you're entitled to
> it, but this particular opening really managed to piss me off, which
> influenced how I read the rest of your message.
>
All right. Call it my prejudice. In general, most of the listmembers can be
summed as such: really like to discuss the technical aspects of SR (rules,
equipment, and such), enjoy SR novels (judging from previous postings of 30+
messages discussing paragraphs in Dragonheart and others), enjoy the
conspiracies in SR, and are more organized than most lists (T-shirts,
getting together at various cons, etc.). Now, there will be half a dozen
people+ who will immediately object to this post. I've spoken with some of
them. Not all of us meet this description, but a goodly number do, judging
from the messages I get every day. Therefore, my generalization. Everyone
who replies to this will all object to my definition, but there you go...
that's where I'm coming from.
Message no. 22
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 10:34:11 -0400
At 08:40 AM 7/16/99 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > So my question is, finally, what role do you believe the SR novels
> > > > should play in the larger plots of the SR Universe?
> > >
> > > None at all. SR novels suck ass, despite what you people may believe.
> >
> > Mark: Don't presume to speak for me, or to tell me what I may or may not
> > believe.
> >
> > The rest of this post is pretty much your opinion, and you're entitled to
> > it, but this particular opening really managed to piss me off, which
> > influenced how I read the rest of your message.
> >
>All right. Call it my prejudice. In general, most of the listmembers can be
>summed as such: really like to discuss the technical aspects of SR (rules,
>equipment, and such), enjoy SR novels (judging from previous postings of 30+
>messages discussing paragraphs in Dragonheart and others), enjoy the
>conspiracies in SR, and are more organized than most lists (T-shirts,
>getting together at various cons, etc.). Now, there will be half a dozen
>people+ who will immediately object to this post. I've spoken with some of
>them. Not all of us meet this description, but a goodly number do, judging
>from the messages I get every day. Therefore, my generalization. Everyone
>who replies to this will all object to my definition, but there you go...
>that's where I'm coming from.

It wasn't your opinion that the novels suck ass that pissed him off, and
made me raise an eyebrow. It very well could be that the novels suck ass.
And that opinion will vary between every member of the list. I can live
with that, and would have been interested in specific reason why you
thought that they sucked ass. Do you not like the epic storyline, that to
get the whole story you have to read the novel? Some people have that
opinion. Not me, but I can see their point and debate the subject.

What i didn't like is that you make a blanket statement of your opinion,
and then imply if I don't see the inherent rightness of said opinion I must
be an idiot. The quality of a novel is an opinion that a person holds, not
a fact like fire is hot. I personally think that Ann Rice books are pure
pap, but I don't tell my roommate that despite what she thinks, they're
pap. She likes them, I don't. To imply that there's something wrong with
her for liking them is insulting. To say that I may believe that I like SR
fiction, but that they really do suck ass so I must have something wrong
with me, is insulting.


Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 23
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 12:54:01 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Mark Fender."
] > I do. Just clarifying: you're standing behind the opinion that
] > anyone who doesn't think the SR novels (and all gaming novels) "suck
] > ass" is wrong? If so, then...whatever floats your boat, I guess.
] >
] Actually, no: my opinion is that they should not publish the continuing
] storyline in SR novels because they are intolerable to read. I was drawn
] slightly off topic. But that is my opinion. Rebuttal?

Yeah. Don't read the books. Get someone who has (and there are
plenty of listmembers who have) to explain the plots to you, and how
they relate to the sourcebooks. Then you won't have to read the
"intolerable" work, but you'll still get the info that relates to the
events in the Shadowrun world.

-Murder of One
Message no. 24
From: 00DNA mcmanus@******.albany.edu
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 13:55:12 -0400
>Jak asked:
>- - -
>So my question is, finally, what role do you believe the SR novels
>should
>play in the larger plots of the SR Universe?

Well, I wrote a big long reply to this and it never showed up on the
list...so I'll try it yet again, I'll cut to the point because I'm sure
most of it has been said by now.

I personally like the books. Pretty much all of them. Some were better
than others, some have been disappointing, but only one I think (to me) was
really bad. And that had to do with the writing of the book and not the
worldliness of it.

I find the books great for my players. I have some people who are new to
SR and roleplaying and basically they really suck. (: They can't figure
out anything. Now some of them are reading the books and the lights are
going off. And it doesn't matter what books either. One person finished
Wolf & Raven along with Terminus Experiment and the other read the first
trilogy. I think that they can now see the world of SR a little bit better
and can switch into "SR Mode" when playing now.

I've run a few different campaigns and I've run them completely against
what a sourcebook or novel said and I've never had any problem. I think
it's kind of silly to complain that a book gives something away or
whatever...however, I'd like to basically counter that with this.

I think that before we used to find that a novel would hint at something
and then we'd get a sourcebook or Adventure that gave us more information
about it.
Examples...
2xS --> Universal Brotherhood
Burning Bright --> Bug City

I think maybe some of the complaints might be because the trend has seemed
to reverse itself.
UCAS Election & The Big D's Secrets --> Dragonheart Trilogy

I agree with the whole power level of some books in a way. I don't hand
someone a copy of the Dragonheart Trilogy and say "OK, if you want to know
how to play Shadowrun read these books" That would just be stupid of me,
but I don't think that's what the books are for. I started a campaign
recently set right after the assassination and one of my players read the
DragonHeart Trilogy because he wanted to know what had happened. And he
enjoyed the series.
If someone does want to know about Shadowrun, I tend to have them read
either Into The Shadows or the first SR Trilogy.

I thought the first Trilogy did good. It's a good intro to the shadowrun
world and it starts off small and works its way into bigger stuff.

I think a new Trilogy, something based on the current timeline but not a
new plot would be nice. Something to reacquaint the readers with the
changed world of shadowrun again. Something touching on the new corps in
the east perhaps. Something that starts off small...something we can show
our players and say "there look that's how a shadowrun team should be and
also there is a realistic corporate target". Then perhaps gets up steam
and covers a bigger plot at the end.

Also another shortstory collection...that way maybe I could get in
there...hahaha. (:


--00DNA
"...user connection terminated."
Message no. 25
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 16:08:16 EDT
In a message dated 7/16/1999 8:39:51 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
markf@******.com writes:

> Actually, no: my opinion is that they should not publish the continuing
> storyline in SR novels because they are intolerable to read. I was drawn
> slightly off topic. But that is my opinion. Rebuttal?

Rebuttals' are like Assumptions here Mark, and you set the statement up that
way.

-K
Message no. 26
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 15:09:11 CST
>From: Mark Fender <markf@******.com>
>Actually, no: my opinion is that they should not publish the continuing
>storyline in SR novels because they are intolerable to read. I was drawn
>slightly off topic. But that is my opinion. Rebuttal?
>

Intolerable to you perhaps. I like (some) of them.

Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."


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Message no. 27
From: Penta cpenta@*****.com
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 07:31:22 -0700
Jarmo Karonen wrote:

> On Monday I had some trouble with my email, and never got a chance to
> reply to Koke's post. Then I forgot... until now. I'm surprised that
> nobody else has replied... come on, what's wrong with you guys?!?
>
> Jak asked:
> - - -
> So my question is, finally, what role do you believe the SR novels
> should
> play in the larger plots of the SR Universe?
> - - -
>
> In my opinion as big as possible. I love epic plots, and I haven't seen
> enough highlevel novel stuff coming from FASA. That's also why I usually
> don't buy FASA novels. I only own Burning Bright and Dragonheart
> Trilogy.

My opinion? I DISLIKE novels as being canon. With a novel's shelf-life these
days (REALLY short at my local bookstores), that makes it INCREDIBLY
difficult to keep up with the universe. Also, I don't want SR to go the way
of Btech, where you practically had to get EVERY novel to understand the
plot. Sourcebooks and their ilk (adventures, etc.) should be the ONLY canon
materials...NOT novels.

John
Message no. 28
From: Lloyd Vance ljvance@*******.edu
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 08:32:36
At 07:31 AM 7/23/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Jarmo Karonen wrote:
>
>> On Monday I had some trouble with my email, and never got a chance to
>> reply to Koke's post. Then I forgot... until now. I'm surprised that
>> nobody else has replied... come on, what's wrong with you guys?!?
>>
>> Jak asked:
>> - - -
>> So my question is, finally, what role do you believe the SR novels
>> should
>> play in the larger plots of the SR Universe?
>> - - -
>>
>> In my opinion as big as possible. I love epic plots, and I haven't seen
>> enough highlevel novel stuff coming from FASA. That's also why I usually
>> don't buy FASA novels. I only own Burning Bright and Dragonheart
>> Trilogy.
>
>My opinion? I DISLIKE novels as being canon. With a novel's shelf-life these
>days (REALLY short at my local bookstores), that makes it INCREDIBLY
>difficult to keep up with the universe. Also, I don't want SR to go the way
>of Btech, where you practically had to get EVERY novel to understand the
>plot. Sourcebooks and their ilk (adventures, etc.) should be the ONLY canon
>materials...NOT novels.
>
>John

Amen. Novels are great for pasttime and distraction, but IMHO the editors
are much more lax on what goes into a novel vs. what goes in a
source/adventure. Also, it is just a huge amount of cash to have to lay
down to try to keep up. Plus, we all have seen the inaccuracies of novels
when it comes to canon. I'm thinking rules and mechanics, but if those are
off, why should we assume the rest of the stuff happens?

--The Hamm
Message no. 29
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 09:48:44 -0400
Penta wrote:

> Jarmo Karonen wrote:
>
> > On Monday I had some trouble with my email, and never got a chance to
> > reply to Koke's post. Then I forgot... until now. I'm surprised that
> > nobody else has replied... come on, what's wrong with you guys?!?
> >
> > Jak asked:
> > - - -
> > So my question is, finally, what role do you believe the SR novels
> > should
> > play in the larger plots of the SR Universe?
> > - - -
> >
> > In my opinion as big as possible. I love epic plots, and I haven't seen
> > enough highlevel novel stuff coming from FASA. That's also why I usually
> > don't buy FASA novels. I only own Burning Bright and Dragonheart
> > Trilogy.
>
> My opinion? I DISLIKE novels as being canon. With a novel's shelf-life these
> days (REALLY short at my local bookstores), that makes it INCREDIBLY
> difficult to keep up with the universe. Also, I don't want SR to go the way
> of Btech, where you practically had to get EVERY novel to understand the
> plot. Sourcebooks and their ilk (adventures, etc.) should be the ONLY canon
> materials...NOT novels.
>
> John

Maybe they should have a few canon novels, and in later sourcebooks, they
can say "information about x and y can be found in *whatever*."

--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2++ !SR3 h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN++ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+) gm+ M-
Message no. 30
From: Twist0059@***.com Twist0059@***.com
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 11:35:22 EDT
In a message dated 7/24/99 9:46:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, strago@***.com
writes:

> Maybe they should have a few canon novels, and in later sourcebooks,
they
> can say "information about x and y can be found in *whatever*."


Isn't that the point behind Shadowlore? Not sure if FASA will be putting it
in every adventure pack, but most likely they will. It's a nice plug for
other products as well as being a handy resource for GMs.



-Twist
"Soylent Green is people."
Message no. 31
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: role of novels in SR universe
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:36:48 -0500
> > I don't think it's fair to compare it with "regular" literature.
> > Gaming fiction isn't designed to be literature. It's designed to
> > draw people into the game world and illustrate concepts from it.
>
> The Hobbit, Sword of Shanarra

Your point? Neither of those books are gaming fiction, and only the former
is any damn good to start with (the latter being the most blatant Tolkien
rip-off I've ever seen in my life).

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

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