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Message no. 1
From: Shawn Baumgartner <Breakdown@*****.NET>
Subject: Roleplayers
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 02:49:09 -0500
I've always wondered why most people who play Shadowrun (or roleplaying
games in general) are men. Not too many women seem to get into them. Any
thoughts? (Freud quoters will be vigorously thwapped, as I don't
proscribe to the rantings of some fool who wanted to boff his mother and
chewed opium on a daily basis. Sexist comments will be severely flamed.)
Female roleplayers' comments especially welcome.

Shawn
Who really digs the whole W.I.G concept.

*******************************************
Out of the gutter and into your mailer!
Message no. 2
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 06:52:41 -0500
At 02:49 AM 3/7/97 -0500, Shawn Baumgartner wrote these timeless words:
>I've always wondered why most people who play Shadowrun (or roleplaying
>games in general) are men. Not too many women seem to get into them. Any
>thoughts? (Freud quoters will be vigorously thwapped, as I don't
>proscribe to the rantings of some fool who wanted to boff his mother and
>chewed opium on a daily basis. Sexist comments will be severely flamed.)
>Female roleplayers' comments especially welcome.
>
Ok... Here's the deal as I see it... And I personally feel that most
psychologists are making this shit up as they go along, so I won't give you
much psychobabble if I can help it...

First off... Shadowrun is really geared toward the male ego... Big Guns,
Fast Cars, big explosions, cool Sci-Fi and Fantasy stuff that guys really
get off on... Ok, so I lied, this is starting to delve into
psychobabble... Sue me...

More often than not, though, guys are attracted to that sort of game, while
women aren't.

Secondly, it's simply a matter of few women gamers... I only know of a
couple women that play games... Most of them are on this list, too...:(
I'd like to find more women gamers, becuase the few I've seen RP really
bring a different flavor to the game...

Oh well... Just my two scents...:]

Bull

--
Now the Offical Shadowrn mailing List Welcome Ork!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****.com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"You know, I think I had a dream that I'd go out like
this, only I was wearing a dress."
-Mighty max
Message no. 3
From: Mark McLaughlin <mmclaugh@*******.EENG.DCU.IE>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 09:10:03 -0800
Shawn Baumgartner wrote:
>
> I've always wondered why most people who play Shadowrun (or roleplaying
> games in general) are men. Not too many women seem to get into them. Any
> thoughts?

I personally think that despite how intelligent and mature most
roleplayers are, women see that practice as immature and childish! I`ve
spoken to female roleplayers who used to roleplay and I`ve asked them
why theyve stopped, but as far as I could gather the only reason they
did it in the firstplace was because a surplus of males played it.
Statistics at Gaelcon the largest con in Ireland reveal that a mere 1 in
20 people at the convention were female most of whom were there with
their boyfriends.

Women at least appear to be more into this "REAL-LIFE" thing, to a
fault, in my opinion. They dont seem to be too interested in tantalising
theirs brains for a good 3 or 4 hours like most of us on the list do.
I`m not saying all women are like that, I`m not even being sexist its
just how I see it...

Mark.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark (Merlin) McLaughlin RPG http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4194
Email: [merlin@********.dcu.ie] [mmclaugh@******.eeng.dcu.ie]
I am but mad north-north-west when the wind blows southerly I know a
hawk from a handsaw...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: Shawn Baumgartner <Breakdown@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 04:20:33 -0500
In response to Mark's post on female roleplayers:

It's not only women who view RPG's as childish or immature; many men
also think so as well, which I never understood (maybe because I've been
into RPG's for too damn long; anyone wanna explore the Keep on the
Borderlands? :).) Yet, I'd guage the ratio of men to women as 20:1 easy.
Perhaps it is the whole, "Let's go kill 'em all!" male thing, although
after a few of my former girlfriends, I can't really believe
slash-n-kill's just for guys. :)

Shawn
Who'd settle for not getting upturned eyes when mentioning RPG's among
people who think ballet is art and fancy dinner parties are a fun time.

*******************************************
Out of the gutter and into your mailer!
Message no. 5
From: 'Spaceman' WD Lee <spaced@*.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 01:42:16 -0800
On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Shawn Baumgartner wrote:
# It's not only women who view RPG's as childish or immature; many men
# also think so as well, which I never understood (maybe because I've been
# into RPG's for too damn long; anyone wanna explore the Keep on the
# Borderlands? :).) Yet, I'd guage the ratio of men to women as 20:1 easy.
I think the whole "childish" thing usually arises from the fact
that apart from munchy D&D freaks (which almost all of us were at one
point) and vampire poseurs, rpg's don't get press. Up here in Seattle we
had a murder case recently where the suspect/killer was into Vampire LARPS
and other RPG type stuff. Thankfully, they didn't blame the game in the
press. But they also didn't say anything at all about gaming. Nothing.
Just a quotation from one of the LARP's officials about how the kid had
been kicked out for breaking the no-touching-of-non-players rules. urgh.
# Perhaps it is the whole, "Let's go kill 'em all!" male thing, although
# after a few of my former girlfriends, I can't really believe
# slash-n-kill's just for guys. :)
Dern straight. Although one of my exes probably wouldn't confine
it to a game.
# Shawn
# Who'd settle for not getting upturned eyes when mentioning RPG's among
# people who think ballet is art and fancy dinner parties are a fun time.
Hey! I _like_ fancy dinner parties. Hate ballet though, it looks
like they're torturing the poor dancers. A Coyote-Ugly(tm) art form.

The Spaceman |The Conspiracy(tm) began back when men were
spaced@*.washington.edu |men and sheep were nervous
Check out the Bill Page! | - Make your Own conspiracy kit
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~spaced/bill.html
GCC/GL d- s:++ a-- C++ U+ P+ L>L++ !E W++ N++ o+ K w !O M-- V--
PS+ PE Y+ PGP t 5++ X+ R+ tv b+++ DI+ D+ G+ e+ h r z+
MPA/SH/TA S G Q+ 666 y W C++ N+ PEC+++ Dr
Message no. 6
From: Dvixen <Dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 01:57:07 -0800
Shawn Baumgartner wrote:

> I've always wondered why most people who play Shadowrun (or roleplaying
> games in general) are men. Not too many women seem to get into them. Any
> thoughts? (Freud quoters will be vigorously thwapped, as I don't
> proscribe to the rantings of some fool who wanted to boff his mother and
> chewed opium on a daily basis. Sexist comments will be severely flamed.)
> Female roleplayers' comments especially welcome.

When I was working in the gaming store, I noticed that female customers
were *WAY* in the minority. (I'm talking less than 1 in 20, more like 1
in 40 or 50...) And judging by most of the males that did come into the
store... What girl in her right mind would want to be asociated with
utter lacking-in-acceptable-social-skills, no job or employable skills,
lives with mom and dad, and barely knows how to work a shower, wears the
same clothes day in and out, lives breathes and eats gaming, bunch of
people? It was pretty rare to see a player with decent social skills
(about as rare as a female gamer, IMO), let alone a decent job. (And by
decent I mean something that takes some amount of skill, not 7-11 type
stuff. I'm going from personal observation here... So if I offend you,
deal with it. I ain't in the mood to coddle egos.)

Bull was pretty close in the guns and fast cars theory for the games,
female gamers for the most part get a different type of enjoyment from
roleplaying. (And I've noticed that a much larger percentage of females
play Vampire: the Whatever, than any other game.)

FYI: My first group had five females and two males. I didn't think
females in gaming were all that rare until university. Out of fourty
someodd people I played with over five years, there was only ever one
female.

--

Dvixen dvixen@********.com
"And I thought First Ones were rare." - Ivanova - Babylon 5
I have no sense of decency. That way, all my other senses are enhanced
Message no. 7
From: Dark Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 01:37:02 +0000
In article <331FE673.13C@********.com>, Dvixen <Dvixen@********.COM>
writes
>Shawn Baumgartner wrote:
>
>> I've always wondered why most people who play Shadowrun (or roleplaying
<snip>

>
>When I was working in the gaming store, I noticed that female customers
>were *WAY* in the minority. (I'm talking less than 1 in 20, more like 1
>in 40 or 50...) And judging by most of the males that did come into the
>store... What girl in her right mind would want to be asociated with
<big snip>

Erm D, it would have been much easier on your fingers if you had just
said "Anorack" It is a sad fact of life that a lot of anoracks and
herberts get involved in RPGs, but then it is also logical. They are
unable to succeed in what is given to be the appearance of life, as seen
by others, so turn to fantasy to answer the cravings that society
demands of them. Unfortunately it is the anoracks of the world that
help to reduce the credibility of RPGs.

>Bull was pretty close in the guns and fast cars theory for the games,
>female gamers for the most part get a different type of enjoyment from
>roleplaying. (And I've noticed that a much larger percentage of females
>play Vampire: the Whatever, than any other game.)

Yeah, I've noticed that from Blaze and to a lesser extent Paul's wife,
though 14 million in gold bullion certainly lit her eyes up <grin>

>FYI: My first group had five females and two males. I didn't think
>females in gaming were all that rare until university. Out of fourty
>someodd people I played with over five years, there was only ever one
>female.

Universities and colleges seem to exude a "manner" of behaviour, where
the women do one thing, and the men are either gamers or jocks. Shame,
but that's education. <groan..>

Also, for some strange reason, a lot of gamers are embarrassed to talk
about their hobby in what may be a public forum that includes non
gamers. It's something I've noticed here and to a lesser extent on the
mainland. I've received gasps of horror for mentioning games in a bar
or club in front of non-gamers, and then glares of disbelief as I
attempt to explain what an RPG is... <grin>

Strangely enough there are people out there who still think RPG means
Rocket Propelled Grenade... Go figure.


--
__ \ | \
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A dark shadow in a dark world |___/
Message no. 8
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 16:26:03 -0500
> (maybe because I've been into RPG's for too damn long; anyone wanna
explore the Keep on the
> Borderlands? :).)

HEY!
We just re-ran that a few months ago!
What a blast, not to say that a T$R game was actually fun ... heaven
forbid, but it was a real trip to play those old games again from a more
mature viewpoint that when I was in sixth grade. :-)

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com./users/bluewizard
"But I don't have any skin!"
Message no. 9
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 11:39:52 +1000
> Ok... Here's the deal as I see it... And I personally feel that most
> psychologists are making this shit up as they go along, so I won't give
you
> much psychobabble if I can help it...

Hey, be careful. I'm married to a psychologist (well a psychologist to be
anyway)

> First off... Shadowrun is really geared toward the male ego... Big
Guns,
> Fast Cars, big explosions, cool Sci-Fi and Fantasy stuff that guys really
> get off on... Ok, so I lied, this is starting to delve into
> psychobabble... Sue me...

I tend to think that it's got a lot to do with the whole 'maturity' issue.
As someone else has said, women (and the population in general, if the
truth be told) may often see the game as being immature. Most (dare I say
this) roleplayers, mostly got into roleplaying when they were 'geeky'.
They were seen as weird or something, either because they roleplayed, or
that was just the way they were seen and they happened to roleplay. How
many 'weird' girls did you meet in school? Sure they were there, but they
also tended to loners, as opposed to the male 'weirdos' who grouped
together. The fact that groups of female outsiders tended to be fairly
rare, meant that the only way most women get into rolepaying, are fi they
are freinds with males that do. It's like a snowball, if you have close
friends the role-play, chances are, you will at some stage, as well. To
get more women roleplaying, you generally need more women roleplaying, or
more women with close male friends that roleplay.

> More often than not, though, guys are attracted to that sort of game,
while
> women aren't.

I see this fact as a bit secondary. The women that get into it generally
see the game as a good oppurtunity to 'open out'. To really get into a
character, even if it is a gunslinging, fast car driving psycho. I think
the reason they are turned off origionally is because it is seen as
'weird', and they just don't really understand the whole idea of RPG'ing.

These have just been my ramblings. Most of them come from the way I have
seen things as I grew up, so they may not be relevant to others, but then
again they may.

Ray
Message no. 10
From: Dark Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 01:28:40 +0000
In article <199703070749.XAA05307@*********.alma.webtv.net>, Shawn
Baumgartner <Breakdown@*****.NET> writes
>I've always wondered why most people who play Shadowrun (or roleplaying
>games in general) are men. Not too many women seem to get into them. Any

As seems to be the exception over here, I've not noticed that. In elder
days when I was able to run games, the ratio of men to women was
normally 50/50. Most other games/gamers I know are similar. It seems
that over here it's a natural transition for most to introduce their
girlfriends/wives to the fun of RPGs.

It also appears that the women enjoy the game as much if not more than
us fellas. :) They certainly get involved in it anyway.

--
__ \ | \
| | _` | __| | / _ \ \ \ / _ \ __ \ _` | _ \ __|
| | ( | | < ___ \ \ \ / __/ | | ( | __/ |
____/ \__,_|_| _|\_\ _/ _\ \_/ \___|_| _|\__, |\___|_|
A dark shadow in a dark world |___/
Message no. 11
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:52:52 -0800
At 06:52 AM 3/7/97 -0500, Bull wrote:

>Ok... Here's the deal as I see it... And I personally feel that most
>psychologists are making this shit up as they go along, so I won't give you
>much psychobabble if I can help it...

<nods vigorously>

>
>First off... Shadowrun is really geared toward the male ego... Big Guns,
>Fast Cars, big explosions, cool Sci-Fi and Fantasy stuff that guys really
>get off on... Ok, so I lied, this is starting to delve into
>psychobabble... Sue me...
>
>More often than not, though, guys are attracted to that sort of game, while
>women aren't.
>
>Secondly, it's simply a matter of few women gamers... I only know of a
>couple women that play games... Most of them are on this list, too...:(
>I'd like to find more women gamers, becuase the few I've seen RP really
>bring a different flavor to the game...

Most of the ones that I'm aware of are also on the list, but for about a
year my friend's younger (about a year or two) sister was involved in our
gaming group. It was mostly during the time that we still played D&D, but
when we swung back to Shadowrun and White Wolf games, she made a few characters.

And for a different flavor..I'll agree. Most of the time our group is
fairly action hungry and that was evident in the types of games we ran, she
how ever was not. Her PC's were for ever trying to talk their way out of
things.

I actually miss having her around as a foil for the rest of the group, but
when her brother went off to college her overbearing mother didn't like the
idea of her hanging out with a bunch of college guys when he wasn't around..

~Tim
~Tim
<Insert Witty Comment>
Message no. 12
From: Gossamer <jrsnyder@********.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 09:33:41 -0600
>I've always wondered why most people who play Shadowrun (or roleplaying
>games in general) are men. Not too many women seem to get into them. Any
>thoughts? (Freud quoters will be vigorously thwapped, as I don't
>proscribe to the rantings of some fool who wanted to boff his mother and
>chewed opium on a daily basis. Sexist comments will be severely flamed.)
>Female roleplayers' comments especially welcome.

My loving wife does gender research for a job... I have spent the
last 6 years becoming an unofficial expert in the field. With that
in mind, let me try to give you my observations on the subject:

View for a moment one of the fundamental differences in male/female
perspective: Males see the world in terms of status. "Where am I
in relation to my associates? Am I higher or lower or in peerage?"
Males determine these things by contesting with each other in all
aspects of their lives for as long as the question of status is
unresolved. Once the status is determined, everyone can be happy,
even if you're of lower status. It is also a primary driver for
males to be of the highest possible status. Win win win. To be
the best at... whatever.

Females view the world in relational terms, judging happiness by
the fluidity of the personal interactions going on around them.
It is more important to females to have everyone around them
contented than it is to 'win'. Smooth personal interaction is
very a important drive. 'How is 'my group' doing?'

Now, let's talk about the evolution of RPG's and social inertia.
I've played RPG's since DND was 3 little white books (c 1976).
Back then, the only RPG was just an exapnsion of scale of any
of the Avalon Hill type army/strategy games. Units were single
individuals with individual weapons rather than groups of like
creatures. So it started as a very 'male/status/conquering' sort
of thing. Even as the RPG evolved, the mentality of status/
conquering/winning stayed the same. Very male oriented. So an
inertia developed. The things that were selling were the things
people produced. This was a very much 'roll playing/munchkin'
sort of world...

Now, let me give you an example: my wife has tried repeatedly
to game with me and my college gaming buddies. There were a
total of 3 game campaigns in which she had fun. The thing
that they had in common was that in each, the characters
involved were interesting apart from, and even despite, the
'goal/quest/objective'. The characters in those games had
motivations other than 'get more gold/newyen/weapons/stuff'.
The characters could interact outside of the goal. If we
spent three hours roleplaying a campfire conversation about
the character's lives, that was ok. The more we focused
on each other's guys, the better she liked the games.

Oddly enough, those were some of my favorite games too...

Anyway, I have done a poor job of relating the things I'm
thinking. Truly, I debate better in person. Take this
for what it's worth.

Gossamer
Message no. 13
From: "V.A.L.I.S." <Campbellcc@***.HENDRIX.EDU>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:27:49 +0100
It was pretty rare to see a player with decent social skills
>(about as rare as a female gamer, IMO), let alone a decent job. (And by
>decent I mean something that takes some amount of skill, not 7-11 type
>stuff. I'm going from personal observation here... So if I offend you,
>deal with it. I ain't in the mood to coddle egos.)

Well the fact that this is a listserve and all of us have computers may
mean we're not really a cross-section. Besides all of me and my friends (in
fact most role-players I know) are in very good positions for jobs, (but
then it's becoming 'cool' to role-play) and have good social skills.



Sincerely,

Courtney C. Campbell...

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
* Courtney C. Campbell *
* Campbellcc@*****.hendrix.edu *
* Http://www.hendrix.edu/homes/stu/campbellcc/ *
* ____| *
* |_|__ "I am not mad. *
* | I am intrested in freedom." *
* -James Douglas Morrison *
*-------------------------------------------------------------------*
*"Remember, no matter where you go, there you are." -Buckaroo Banzai*
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Matter is plastic in the face of mind
-Tractates Cryptica Scriptura
Phillip Kindred Dick/VALIS
Message no. 14
From: Mark McLaughlin <mmclaugh@*******.EENG.DCU.IE>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:53:17 -0800
Dvixen wrote:
>
> Shawn Baumgartner wrote:
>
> > I've always wondered why most people who play Shadowrun (or roleplaying
> > games in general) are men. Not too many women seem to get into them. Any
> > thoughts? (Freud quoters will be vigorously thwapped, as I don't
> > proscribe to the rantings of some fool who wanted to boff his mother and
> > chewed opium on a daily basis. Sexist comments will be severely flamed.)
> > Female roleplayers' comments especially welcome.
>
> When I was working in the gaming store, I noticed that female customers
> were *WAY* in the minority. (I'm talking less than 1 in 20, more like 1
> in 40 or 50...)

Of course I DID say that the 1 in 20 recorded were mostly girlfriends of
attending males that had little idea of what was going on...

Mark

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark (Merlin) McLaughlin RPG http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4194
Email: [merlin@********.dcu.ie] [mmclaugh@******.eeng.dcu.ie]
I am but mad north-north-west when the wind blows southerly I know a
hawk from a handsaw...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 15
From: Mike and Jill Johnson <shadow@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Role players
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 12:39:33 -0700
At 12:51 AM 3/7/97 Shawn asked:
>
>I've always wondered why most people who play Shadowrun (or roleplaying
>games in general) are men. Not too many women seem to get into them. Any
>thoughts? (Freud quoters will be vigorously thwapped, as I don't
>proscribe to the rantings of some fool who wanted to boff his mother and
>chewed opium on a daily basis. Sexist comments will be severely flamed.)
>Female roleplayers' comments especially welcome.
>

Can't really say why there are more male gamers then females other then
same reason why there aren't a lot of female computer techs. Their just
not interested in it or to intimated by the "complexity" of the game.
(Think I'm joking? It took me _one_ year before I really understood
staging. Part of the reason was, I didn't take the time to read the rules
and the rest of it was, "here roll these dice" type thing.)


Jill

Who's word is law one third of the time.
Message no. 16
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:58:31 -0700
# Shawn
# Who'd settle for not getting upturned eyes when mentioning RPG's
# among people who think ballet is art and fancy dinner parties are a
# fun time.

Ya know..These same folks are the self same ones who would go in for
one of those murder mystery train rides..Or a game of Who done it at
one of their parties too..Of course those games are not discribed to
them in the same way as our game would be....

>And then Bull said...
>Secondly, it's simply a matter of few women gamers... I only know of
>a couple women that play games...

All women play games Bull..they just don't all do RPGs... :P

>I'd like to find more women gamers, becuase the few I've seen RP
>really bring a different flavor to the game...

I agree completely...Because women think differently than men..It can
really add a twist to a game...



-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
Message no. 17
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 17:16:57 +0000
> From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
> Subject: Re: Roleplayers

> More often than not, though, guys are attracted to that sort of game, while
> women aren't.
> Secondly, it's simply a matter of few women gamers... I only know of a
> couple women that play games... Most of them are on this list, too...:(

I know quite a few women who play and most of them were introduced to
RPG's by their boyfriends/husbands. I agree with you, Bull, the
market is just geared towards males.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 18
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 03:53:40 -0700
At 02:49 3/7/97 -0500, Shawn Baumgartner wrote:
>I've always wondered why most people who play Shadowrun (or roleplaying
>games in general) are men. Not too many women seem to get into them. Any
>thoughts? (Freud quoters will be vigorously thwapped, as I don't
>proscribe to the rantings of some fool who wanted to boff his mother and
>chewed opium on a daily basis. Sexist comments will be severely flamed.)
>Female roleplayers' comments especially welcome.

Not female, sorry :) But I'm gonna toss in something that happened just
two days ago, in english class.
Someone is starting an AD&D club at school (I'm still debating whether to
show up..if its all AD&D, I think not.), so there's posters up all over,
and one was on the wall in english class. I was as usual sitting there
blabbering to a couple friends, when I heard a girl across the room say
"Doc, whats Dungeons and Dragons?" (Doc is our english teacher.. Dr Hart,
Dr of psychology.) I was rather suprised when he came up with a good
definition of a role playing game, and not only that, he didn't generalize
it at all. What does this have to do with females and gaming? Most of the
guys in the room didn't know what it was either! Most that did knew
because I ussually tote around a different Shadowrun book each day, and
when they ask "What the hell is that funny shaped book?", my standard reply
is: "Its a book for a roleplaying game, sort of like AD&D, but different."
Then I ussually a) have to explain what a roleplaying game and AD&D is, b)
Get the usual "Oh, that nerdy stuff" comment, or c) explain that there are
other games besides AD&D.
I've noticed that about half the people I know, know what a roleplaying
game is, but most can only name AD&D as an example, and ussually refer to
it as "The game you have funny dice in".

Did ANY of this make any sense? Its 4am :):)

-Adam
Message no. 19
From: Mike and Jill Johnson <shadow@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Role players
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 05:51:22 -0700
At 12:51 AM 3/7/97 Shawn asked:
>
>I've always wondered why most people who play Shadowrun (or roleplaying
>games in general) are men. Not too many women seem to get into them. Any
>thoughts? (Freud quoters will be vigorously thwapped, as I don't
>proscribe to the rantings of some fool who wanted to boff his mother and
>chewed opium on a daily basis. Sexist comments will be severely flamed.)
>Female roleplayers' comments especially welcome.
>

Can't really say why there are more male gamers then females other then
same reason why there aren't a lot of female computer techs. Their just
not interested in it or to intimated by the "complexity" of the game.
(Think I'm joking? It took me about _one_ year before I really understood
staging. Part of the reason was: I didn't take the time to read the rules
and the rest of it was: "here roll these dice" type thing.)


Jill

Who's word is law one third of the time.
Message no. 20
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 11:40:18 +1000
> I've always wondered why most people who play Shadowrun (or roleplaying
> games in general) are men. Not too many women seem to get into them. Any
> thoughts? (Freud quoters will be vigorously thwapped, as I don't
> proscribe to the rantings of some fool who wanted to boff his mother and
> chewed opium on a daily basis. Sexist comments will be severely flamed.)
> Female roleplayers' comments especially welcome.

That's 'gonna put you in a tight spot if you get a sexist female roleplayer
answering. :)

Ray
Message no. 21
From: James Paulsen <lowfyr@***********.COM>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 08:49:55 -0600
Shawn Baumgartner wrote:
>
> I've always wondered why most people who play Shadowrun (or roleplaying
> games in general) are men. Not too many women seem to get into them. Any
> thoughts? (Freud quoters will be vigorously thwapped, as I don't
> proscribe to the rantings of some fool who wanted to boff his mother and
> chewed opium on a daily basis. Sexist comments will be severely flamed.)
> Female roleplayers' comments especially welcome.
>
> Shawn
> Who really digs the whole W.I.G concept.


My wife has been gaming since I met her four years ago and I would have
to agree that she is one of the best gamers I know. My best friend got
married and dragged his wife into gaming and she is equally great and
both are almost as obsessed as we are...almost.

Anyway, after twelve years of gaming with boys and men, they finally
broke the habit and I noticed that it brought on a huge change on my
style of GMing. They began to force me to bring in a "softer" side of
the game and detail things in a way that no man ever asked for, like
"what color is the little girl's hair?" etc. They also thought heavily
before ever pulling a trigger and sought non-violent solutions that have
more than once saved the rest of the group from inevitable death when
the male characters wanted to go in guns blazing.

Also for the first time I had women playing female characters, and boy
that was an eye opener. Men, for the most part, really seem to screw up
when trying to play female characters. Currently half of my group is
female and I wouldn't mind trying to find some more.

As to why not more women game? I don't know, but it's a crying shame...

Jim

Who Equally Digs The WIG Concept
Message no. 22
From: "Faux Pas (Thomas)" <thomas@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 10:34:53 -0600
On 02:49 AM 3/7/97 -0500, Shawn Baumgartner screamed at the world:
>I've always wondered why most people who play Shadowrun (or roleplaying
>games in general) are men. Not too many women seem to get into them. Any
>thoughts?

The first successful roleplaying game was "Dungeons & Dragons" and it was
geared towards boys. The cover had a large dragon and a male knight or
wizard, most of the first adventures were hack and slash, female characters
had maximums on one of the major character attributes (strength), and the
rules stressed combat over character interaction. D&D (and AD&D) were the
backbone of RPGs for several years. They (and other game systems) still
use "he" to mean "he or she" in examples. Not until the late 80s,
after
about 14 years of RPGs, did I see a game that used gender neutral pronouns
or varied "he" and "she" through the books.

So let's say that there were about twenty years where RPGs were geared for
males. You've got boys playing the games. Ask people who haven't played
RPGs to describe a group of gamers, they'll describe a group of teenage
boys around a table with dice (and very few social skills).

But that's changed recently. More games are dropping the "it's easier to
use 'he' instead of 'he or she' and there's a long running literary history
of it" bullshit as the game companies realize they're alienating an
untapped market. Combat rules are still there, but there are several more
pages in the main manuals about interacting between characters. Even AD&D
adventures are written with plots and opportunities to interact with others
instead of going around and killing everything. Advancement in the games
isn't related to how many things you kill. Even the language has changed -
from Dungeon Master to Storyteller, the emphasis has been shifted.

Now some people here dislike V:tM, but they've brought in several women
into the RPG world. I've had a chance to see a group of Vampire players,
and surprise!, half of them were women! My position on the White Wolf
games? Anything that can bring more people into the gaming industry can't
be all that bad.

I'm currently in three PBEM AD&D games and I'd say that out of the fourteen
total people playing, six are female. In my Shadowrun game, we have three
female players and three male players (and another male who occasionally
games with us and me, the GM).

RPGs are seen as "boy games". With the success of other
(non-pseudo-medieval) games, you'll see more females playing RPGs.

Thomas Deeny
Infobahn Austin
512 320 0556
Message no. 23
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 13:37:43 +0000
|
|I've always wondered why most people who play Shadowrun (or roleplaying
|games in general) are men. Not too many women seem to get into them.

I think it's something to do with the "mosh the orks into the ground" image
that RPGing tends to engender....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 24
From: Mark McLaughlin <mmclaugh@*******.EENG.DCU.IE>
Subject: Re: Role players
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:16:12 -0800
Mike and Jill Johnson wrote:
>
> At 12:51 AM 3/7/97 Shawn asked:
> >
> >I've always wondered why most people who play Shadowrun (or roleplaying
> >games in general) are men. Not too many women seem to get into them. Any
> >thoughts? (Freud quoters will be vigorously thwapped, as I don't
> >proscribe to the rantings of some fool who wanted to boff his mother and
> >chewed opium on a daily basis. Sexist comments will be severely flamed.)
> >Female roleplayers' comments especially welcome.
> >
>
> Can't really say why there are more male gamers then females other then
> same reason why there aren't a lot of female computer techs...

Actually it has been proven to some degree that while males usually make
better engineers, females make better linguists `n stuff.

Mark (Merlin) McLaughlin.
Message no. 25
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 11:56:36 -0700
| Shawn Baumgartner wrote:
| >
| > I've always wondered why most people who play Shadowrun (or roleplaying
| > games in general) are men. Not too many women seem to get into them. Any
| > thoughts? (Freud quoters will be vigorously thwapped, as I don't
| > proscribe to the rantings of some fool who wanted to boff his mother and
| > chewed opium on a daily basis. Sexist comments will be severely flamed.)
| > Female roleplayers' comments especially welcome.
| >
| > Shawn
| > Who really digs the whole W.I.G concept.

I think it's a maturity level thing. Boys grow up playing
competitive games (mostly). Then they find roleplaying
games, usually AD$D, and are attracted to the monster
slaying hero idea. I don't know about you, but when I
started gaming everything was a basic hack and slash and
the roleplaying was pretty crude. If we had been more
"mature" I'm sure we would have attracted more women to
game with us. I'm sure that seeing 4-5 boys sitting in the
school hall crying out, "I attack the dragon with my Holy
Avenger!" followed by "You named your penis?" and juvenile
laughter did not present a positive image.

And then there's the social tendancy for boys to play
games, and for girls to... not.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 26
From: Tim Cooper <tpcooper@***.CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:52:52 -0800
On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Faux Pas (Thomas) wrote:

[...]

> Now some people here dislike V:tM, but they've brought in several women
> into the RPG world. I've had a chance to see a group of Vampire players,
> and surprise!, half of them were women! My position on the White Wolf
> games? Anything that can bring more people into the gaming industry can't
> be all that bad.

Now to say one thing about WW games... When I first read Werewolf, I was a
bit surprised to notice that it's almost entirely written with "She", not
that there's anything wrong with that - infact it's quite appropriate for
Werewolf - but it was the first time I'd seen anything like that in a
gaming book and I thought it was pretty cool.

[...]


~Tim
Message no. 27
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Role players
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:27:18 +0000
> From: Mike and Jill Johnson <shadow@*****.COM>
> Subject: Re: Role players

> (Think I'm joking? It took me _one_ year before I really understood
> staging. Part of the reason was, I didn't take the time to read the rules
> and the rest of it was, "here roll these dice" type thing.)

For the first year, our group (20 or so male soldiers off and on) had
the rule of one's fouled up. We were having every 1 remove a
success and then if there were more 1's than successes, you had an
oops. We read the rule, but just didn't process it right.

> Who's word is law one third of the time.

I wish I could attain an average that would even come close to that.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 28
From: Droopy <droopy@*******.NB.NET>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 16:27:18 +0000
> From: Gossamer <jrsnyder@********.WISC.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Roleplayers

> Females view the world in relational terms, judging happiness by
> the fluidity of the personal interactions going on around them.
> It is more important to females to have everyone around them
> contented than it is to 'win'. Smooth personal interaction is
> very a important drive. 'How is 'my group' doing?'

Yes and no...I've noticed that women tend to extremely status
concious around other women. They don't neccesarily worry about
their appearance for the sake of the opposite sex (as men do) but
more to impress their peers. It's not quite the same drive that men
have, but it does seem to be there.


--Droopy
droopy@**.net
Message no. 29
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:52:44 +0100
Droopy said on 16:27/11 Mar 97...

> Yes and no...I've noticed that women tend to extremely status
> concious around other women.

Anyone see "Daria"? "She's not as popular as she is, but _she_'s much more
popular than he. Those two are not popular at all, and..."

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I'm talking to remind me
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 30
From: Mark McLaughlin <mmclaugh@*******.EENG.DCU.IE>
Subject: Re: Role players
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 21:46:07 -0800
Droopy wrote:
>
> > From: Mike and Jill Johnson <shadow@*****.COM>
> > Subject: Re: Role players
>
> > (Think I'm joking? It took me _one_ year before I really understood
> > staging. Part of the reason was, I didn't take the time to read the rules
> > and the rest of it was, "here roll these dice" type thing.)
>
> For the first year, our group (20 or so male soldiers off and on) had
> the rule of one's fouled up...

Dont worry we had the rule of one fouled up for 2 years!! Ah well (dam
V:TM influences!!!) The only proof we could find in the book for the
REAL system was in the examples...

Mark

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark (Merlin) McLaughlin RPG http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4194
Email: [merlin@********.dcu.ie] [mmclaugh@******.eeng.dcu.ie]
I am but mad north-north-west when the wind blows southerly I know a
hawk from a handsaw...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 31
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Role players
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 14:47:34 -0700
Droopy wrote:
|
| > From: Mike and Jill Johnson <shadow@*****.COM>
| > Subject: Re: Role players
|
| > (Think I'm joking? It took me _one_ year before I really understood
| > staging. Part of the reason was, I didn't take the time to read the rules
| > and the rest of it was, "here roll these dice" type thing.)
|
| For the first year, our group (20 or so male soldiers off and on) had
| the rule of one's fouled up. We were having every 1 remove a
| success and then if there were more 1's than successes, you had an
| oops. We read the rule, but just didn't process it right.

I can beat that :) For two years my players were paying
one point of Karma per reroll... one test, seven re-rolls,
seven karma :( And, I had another player who was adding
the rating for his power focus to the force of all his
spells for about a year <sigh>.

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 32
From: Angel Ramos y David Fayes <hansa@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 22:09:05 -0500
At 01:37 AM 03/8/97 +0000, you wrote:

>Universities and colleges seem to exude a "manner" of behaviour, where
>the women do one thing, and the men are either gamers or jocks. Shame,
>but that's education. <groan..>
I could tell you a story about the RPG club in the Simon Bolivar University
(USB) in Caracas, Venezuela.
We (I included me as a founder but I got my degree in May '95) founded the
Role Playing Game Association Club as a way to know other people from other
careers in the University, and the founder group was all male. (Seems to be
an Universal University Behavior).
I visited the USB recently and went to the club and saw a few girls there.
So when I asked how many girls have joined the club since I left, the answer
was that they didn´t know but they had some girls around. (confirming the
POV that few girls are interested in RPG)
Anyway, there was a the time to present the club to the Univerisity
Authorities and I was let alone to explain what the club was to them. They
liked the idea and they let us incorpore it to the Club Section of the
University. (Confirming that most people are ashame of talking about RPG in
front of non-RPGamers)
And on a final not, some friends and I went to a radio station and talked
about the RPG in Venezuela and their influence on young people and this
experience allowed us some good public reputation and the oportunity to show
our gaming materials in the annual book fair.

Thus I think that we have to share our experiences with other people and
enlight them about RPG.

The Elven Mage
Message no. 33
From: Mike and Jill Johnson <shadow@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Role players
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 19:40:18 -0700
>
>I can beat that :) For two years my players were paying
>one point of Karma per reroll... one test, seven re-rolls,
>seven karma :( And, I had another player who was adding
>the rating for his power focus to the force of all his
>spells for about a year <sigh>.
>


We also kept resisting drain wrong. If the mage was
wounded we would add the approvate modifiers for the TN
and then we would ADD them again, when rolling for drain.
So it was like a double whammy. Had many-a-mage drop to
the ground after casting a spell because they resist it
all.


Jill
Message no. 34
From: Dvixen <Dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Role players
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:21:47 -0800
Mark McLaughlin wrote:
>
> Mike and Jill Johnson wrote:

> > Can't really say why there are more male gamers then females other then
> > same reason why there aren't a lot of female computer techs...
>
> Actually it has been proven to some degree that while males usually make
> better engineers, females make better linguists `n stuff.

Hrmmm... I'd say it has more to do with what is 'traditional' for men
and women. Until recently (I'm using a large scale recently, not the
five year recently) not many women were in the work force. It just
wasn't an option for most women. Similar for role-playing. The original
D&D, and the Tactical Strategical Rules (war) games before them, were
like an all-boys club. (And if females make better linguists, how come
my texts are all authored by males? - rhetorical question) If society
believes that boys/men are the ones who play RPGs, for whatever the
reason, chances are, that is the way things will be. It's kinda like
fashion, remember, at one time men wore wigs, lace and makeup.

--

Dvixen dvixen@********.com
"And I thought First Ones were rare." - Ivanova - Babylon 5
I have no sense of decency. That way, all my other senses are enhanced
Message no. 35
From: "Florian I. Hayd" <Straylight@****.ESSLINGEN.NETSURF.DE>
Subject: Re: Roleplayers
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:23:00 WET
Dark Avanger wrote:
>As seems to be the exception over here, I've not noticed that. In elder
>days when I was able to run games, the ratio of men to women was
>normally 50/50. Most other games/gamers I know are similar. It seems
>that over here it's a natural transition for most to introduce their
>girlfriends/wives to the fun of RPGs.
>
>It also appears that the women enjoy the game as much if not more than
>us fellas. :) They certainly get involved in it anyway.

Here it seems to be similar.
Half of the girls I know gaming are real good at it and bring a lot of fun
to it. Most of them were introduced by their boyfriends or real close
friends. One of them even masters real good. She's really into LARP, too.
The other half quit because they somehow had problems with getting used to
this kind of playing.
The strange thing is: A lot of the girls are interested in RPGs, want to
know more about it and want to try it sometimes. Most guys consider it as
"Oh well."

___ _____ ___ ___ _ _ _ _ ___ _ _ _____
/ ___\|_ _| _ \ / _ \ \ / | | | |/ __\| | | |_ _|
| |__ | | | |_| | |_| \ \/ /| | | | | | |_| | | |
\__ \ | | | /| _ |\ / | | | | | _| _ | | |
___| | | | | |\ \| | | |/ / | |__| | |_| | | | | | |
\___ / |_| |_| \_|_| |_|_/ |____|_|\___/|_| |_| |_|

>>>>>[I always thought I was indecisive,
but now I'm not so sure.]<<<<<
Message no. 36
From: Mark McLaughlin <mmclaugh@*******.EENG.DCU.IE>
Subject: Re: Role players
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 13:11:08 -0800
Dvixen wrote:
>
> Mark McLaughlin wrote:
> >
> > Mike and Jill Johnson wrote:
>
> > > Can't really say why there are more male gamers then females other then
> > > same reason why there aren't a lot of female computer techs...
> >
> > Actually it has been proven to some degree that while males usually make
> > better engineers, females make better linguists `n stuff.
>
> Hrmmm... I'd say it has more to do with what is 'traditional'...

I read this in an IQ book, dont flame me.. It was the book!

Mark (Merlin) McLaughlin.
Message no. 37
From: Jose Vicente Mondejar Brell <jomonbre@***.UPV.ES>
Subject: Re: Role players
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 16:25:28 +0000
David Buehrer wrote:
<snip>
> I can beat that :) For two years my players were paying
> one point of Karma per reroll... one test, seven re-rolls,
> seven karma :( And, I had another player who was adding

Two years? Sigh! It's been four or five years here for the same
mistake.
[Monde blushes. If he'd only joined the list some years earlier...]

<snip>

--
Monde, whose mistakes go far away from there...

Further Reading

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