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Message no. 1
From: Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
Subject: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 14:12:23 +0300 (EET DST)
On Fri, 5 Apr 1996, Larry wrote:

> >Roleplaying is going out, now it's just card games. Those companies which
> >don't make card games may not survive -- just look at GDW -- which is of
> >
> >But hey, that's life, things come and go. Sad but inevitable.
>
> I disagree here, sure Magic and card games have hurt the RPG industry it's
> still going strong. Look at T$R, they've hired a bunch of new writers and

Maybe my view stems from the fact that I'm in Finland, then. The
gamestore here gets something like 1/3 of their sales (and a larger part
of their profits) from card games. The other 2/3 is made up from comics,
books, rpgs, strategy games, miniatures, etc. By no means would I call
them an rpg store anymore. Yet the sales levels are approximately the
same as a few years ago, when they mainly sold rpgs.

The plans for new games to be translated into Finnish are card games:
Doomtrooper, Magic, INWO, maybe the new Tolkien and Cthulhu games. NOT rpgs.

But I'm glad if things are better in other parts of the world.


---------------------------------------------
: Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich :
: only just : :
: good enough! : aistrich@********.hkkk.fi :
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Message no. 2
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 13:55:57 GMT + 2:00
@ On Fri, 5 Apr 1996, Larry wrote:
@
@ > >Roleplaying is going out, now it's just card games. Those companies which
@
@ > >don't make card games may not survive -- just look at GDW -- which is of
@ > >
@ > >But hey, that's life, things come and go. Sad but inevitable.
@ >
@ > I disagree here, sure Magic and card games have hurt the RPG industry it's
@ > still going strong. Look at T$R, they've hired a bunch of new writers and
@
@ Maybe my view stems from the fact that I'm in Finland, then. The
@ gamestore here gets something like 1/3 of their sales (and a larger part
@ of their profits) from card games. The other 2/3 is made up from comics,
@ books, rpgs, strategy games, miniatures, etc. By no means would I call
@ them an rpg store anymore. Yet the sales levels are approximately the
@ same as a few years ago, when they mainly sold rpgs.
@
@ The plans for new games to be translated into Finnish are card games:
@ Doomtrooper, Magic, INWO, maybe the new Tolkien and Cthulhu games. NOT rpgs.
@
@ But I'm glad if things are better in other parts of the world.

In this backwater of a country, things aren't so bad. What card
games have done is taken a lot of the 'would-have-been' rpg'rs. This
has the result that there are a lot of RPGing but there are fewer and
fewer young players. In the Gaming Society I used to belong to it was
when I arrived (back in the dark ages), almost exclusively RPGing and
Wargaming. Within two years the only thing that the new member know
how to do is play Magic and the rest.

Unless card games go out of fashion I would recon that we are
most probably the last serious generation of RPGers left. At least
untill something else catchs the imagination.



Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to fact the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 3
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 13:04:08 +0100 (BST)
| Unless card games go out of fashion I would recon that we are
|most probably the last serious generation of RPGers left. At least
|untill something else catchs the imagination.

I think they are starting to go out of fashion....]
Either that, or the CCG market is beginning to implode due to overload.

There are new CCGs every week, and there is no way the market can sustain
itself for long.

Now, the big question.
If Magic goes out of fashion, will WoTC try to reinstate their more reliable
(but less profitable) RPG section, and if they do, how many gamers will
forgive them and start buying their products again?

If CCGs do die, it could be that WotC signed their own death warrant.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 4
From: Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 15:22:33 +0300 (EET DST)
On Tue, 30 Apr 1996, A Halliwell wrote:

> | Unless card games go out of fashion I would recon that we are
> |most probably the last serious generation of RPGers left. At least
> |untill something else catchs the imagination.
>
> I think they are starting to go out of fashion....]
> Either that, or the CCG market is beginning to implode due to overload.
>
I think what is starting to happen is that Magic can no longer hold the
Nr. 1 position. The reason is simple: its gotten too complex for new
people to get on, and older players either are power-happy types who have
spent huge sums on their decks, or players who notice how much they'd
have to invest to get a truly good deck and how little fun it is to play
against the power-happy types.

But this doesn't necessarily mean that all card games would be going out:
I think the ones with a) good playability and b) good graphics (so
they're worth collecting anyhow) will remain in the market.

> There are new CCGs every week, and there is no way the market can sustain
> itself for long.
>
At this level, yes. The market has been a sure bet, so everybody and
their dog decided to make a game. They'll soon find out it doesn't work
that way.

---------------------------------------------
: Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich :
: only just : :
: good enough! : aistrich@********.hkkk.fi :
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Message no. 5
From: Lady Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 22:51:17 +1000 (EST)
> Now, the big question.
> If Magic goes out of fashion, will WoTC try to reinstate their more reliable
> (but less profitable) RPG section, and if they do, how many gamers will
> forgive them and start buying their products again?
>
> If CCGs do die, it could be that WotC signed their own death warrant.

I don't agree. Sure, CCGs are nowhere near as fun as RPGs and are no kind
of substitute to a 'real gamer' (note: my definition of 'real gamer'
might not be standard. YMMV.) but that doesn't make them totally invalid
as a form of entertainment. Yes, sure, it gets annoying seeing little
weenies taking up valued RPG-store-staff-members' time, but that's life.


Hey, I play Magic now and then (though I sold off my deck ages ago and
now play off spare cards from friends) and I collect the Star Trek TNG
CCG... they don't have the same place in my heart as my favourite RPGs,
but they'll do for a spare hour or two when there's only one other gamer
around.

I don't think that most RPGers are fanatical enough to ignore a good RPG
just cause the company sells other stuff they don't like. T$R, of course,
is another question. (Though these days it's open to debate as to whether
it's a good RPG or not, too... )

Just my two virtual euro-sheckels' worth...

Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
I don't have enemies, it's just that my best friends
are trying to kill me.
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
------------------------------------------------------
The opinions expressed are my own, unless you don't
agree with them, in which case they are my evil twin
sister's opinions.
Message no. 6
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 13:33:28 GMT
A Halliwell writes

> I think they are starting to go out of fashion....]
The magic craze amongst folks that played RPG's before it arrived has
gone (here) though plenty still play some card games. There are a lot
of 'Magic etc' only players about though, especially the younger
generation.

> Either that, or the CCG market is beginning to implode due to overload.
>
> There are new CCGs every week, and there is no way the market can sustain
> itself for long.
>
Looks too likely.

> Now, the big question.
> If Magic goes out of fashion, will WoTC try to reinstate their more reliable
> (but less profitable) RPG section, and if they do, how many gamers will
> forgive them and start buying their products again?
Well, try opposite guess next time you ask, it was 'certianly ok'
then it was just gone.

>
> If CCGs do die, it could be that WotC signed their own death
> warrant.
I doubt they will die, but the slowdown could well do some damage if
somwone get caught by a big sales drop with a lot of stock.

The other thing they seem to be doing is changing the types of cards
allowed in tournaments to 'force' folks to keep buying the new
expansions to keep up with the cards allowed. As its a while since i
played the game info's a bit sketchy.

Mark
Message no. 7
From: "Nat C." <natc@*****.net>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 11:54:48 -0400 (EDT)
On Tue, 30 Apr 1996, Andre' Selmer wrote:

> In this backwater of a country, things aren't so bad. What card
> games have done is taken a lot of the 'would-have-been' rpg'rs. This
> has the result that there are a lot of RPGing but there are fewer and
> fewer young players. In the Gaming Society I used to belong to it was
> when I arrived (back in the dark ages), almost exclusively RPGing and
> Wargaming. Within two years the only thing that the new member know
> how to do is play Magic and the rest.
>
> Unless card games go out of fashion I would recon that we are
> most probably the last serious generation of RPGers left. At least
> untill something else catchs the imagination.

I think I have to disagree with this. I feel that these card games are a
fad. I like to play them once but then they all got old and all of my
friends are the same way. They are fun at times but after a while, it's
just all the same. RPG on the other hand change from GM to GM and are
never once the same in almost any respect.

You can think about this the same way as with POGs. I also once played
with them but after about a mounth, I realilized that these were just
pieces of card board which I had been buying and the game wasn't that fun
in the first place. POGs are probibly the lowest level of this phenominon
but these cards are not too much above them. Everything, even RPG will go
out of style in this fashion; it all depends on how complex the game is
and who is playing it. With RPG though, the time it takes to bore on
people is some fifty time as long as these cards and about a thousand
times as long as POGs. Many stores have stoped carrying POGs as they will
eventually with these card game; once enough people are bored with them
that they get reputation as being boring. I think all these things are
going out including RPG because before there were tings like computer games
and 32bit game systems, RPG was as hot as it gets. In short, RPG will
someday leave but not because of these card which will leave first.

>
>
>
> Andre'

-Xyphius
Message no. 8
From: Robyn King-Nitschke <rking@********.COM>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 09:07:01 -0700
Xyphius writes:

> I think all these things are
> going out including RPG because before there were tings like computer games
> and 32bit game systems, RPG was as hot as it gets. In short, RPG will
> someday leave but not because of these card which will leave first.
>

I don't think RPGs are going anywhere anytime soon, because they fill
a need that POGs and card games don't: the chance to portray someone
else, maybe someone completely different than yourself. RPG genres will
come and go: maybe medieval games will go out of fashion, or vampire
games, or cyberpunk games. But the underlying structure, the game that
involves roleplaying, will stick around IMHO. What other way can you
as cheaply and safely live out your fantasies? :)

Whether it will continue to be popular or whether it will become even
more of a specialty market (like wargames or model railroads) remains
to be seen, though.

--o'Rat
Message no. 9
From: jhm@*****.com (J Hulley-Miller)
Subject: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 19:01:27 -0400
Greetings,

30 Apr 96 13:55, "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za> wrote:

>AS> Unless card games go out of fashion I would recon that we are
>AS> most probably the last serious generation of RPGers left. At least
>AS> untill something else catchs the imagination.

There was a similar 'fad' about 10 years back. Remember those RPG books where
you would turn to a page based on which action you selected ? They were around
for a few years, now they arent found anywhere.

jhm

--
J Hulley-Miller <jhm@*****.com>
____ <fidonet#1:107/330>
\/\/ "Human nature is never so weak as in a bookstore" - Henry Ward Beecher
Message no. 10
From: TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 19:02:51 -0500
>Roleplaying is going out, now it's just card games. Those companies which
>don't make card games may not survive -- just look at GDW -- which is of

Just look at Wizards of the Coast. You mean you didn't know they are just
short of bankrupt?

A lot of people associate the "fall of rpg's" with how D&D does. It's
dying, and I for one think it's about time. The game system sucks. D&D is
a old and tired horse that's been beaten near to death, waiting for the rpg
equivalent of a trip to the glue factory.

Shadowrun has picked up considerably. All White Wolf games do extremely
well (the new V:tDA book is GREAT!). The HERO system is still around and
kicking in all its forms. GURPS is drawing converts by the day.

A lot of gamers like strategy oriented games so Warhammer 40K, Necromunda,
Battletech, and many others are very hot now. I don't begrudge these
people, I'm glad they're around to dump cash into the industry.

Some card games do very well. Among the most popular of late (around here
anyway) are Overpower (because Marvel Comics have sucked so bad for the past
5 years, the fans had to go somewhere for entertainment), Highlander
(because of how the game is organized), and V:tES (because White Wolf gamers
want cards too *grin*). People around here are ditching their Magic decks
for whatever trade they can get in a new card game.

Does this mean card games are dying? No, but it means the shine has worn
off and people are expecting more from the industry. The market is also
flooded with a lot of different card games and many of them are failing
miserably because of it. Basically, the supply has now surpassed the
demand, pick your card game of choice carefully.

Also, rules at cons make most card players avoid them altogether (people
love their stacked decks and I would too if I spent that much time/money
getting one). A few games are worked so that deck-stacking can only get you
so far (Highlander comes to mind), so those types of card games be the new
darlings of the market. At least in this area.

Just thought I throw out some financial info for the fun of it...

Some final bits that some may know and others may not. HERO games is now
working with R. Talsorian (those CP2020 people). Marvel is nearing its
final day (they've already leased out most of their titles). Shadowrun is
getting tons of new toys (check http://www.fasa.com/). Buy Sirius comics as
fast as you can and go to a con a couple months later (you'll at least
double your money). Hmmm...guess that'll be all.

--------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
--------------------------------------------------------
* All you need to start up an insane asylum is *
* an empty room and the right kind of people *
--------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: Fro <fro@***.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 18:57:18 -0600
At 13:04 30/04/96 +0100, you wrote:
>| Unless card games go out of fashion I would recon that we are
>|most probably the last serious generation of RPGers left. At least
>|untill something else catchs the imagination.
>
>I think they are starting to go out of fashion....]
>Either that, or the CCG market is beginning to implode due to overload.
>
>There are new CCGs every week, and there is no way the market can >sustain
itself for long.

This has happened before, many times...The most recent time i can remember
was when sports cards were the big thing, until about 1993-1994, when
oversaturation turned away all but the richest collecters. I remember this
well, as It stopped me from collecting, and led me to better things
(computers, internet, shadowrun)
Message no. 12
From: dhinkley@***.org
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 00:43:01 -0700 (PDT)
Are RPGs on their way out...No. Will their component of the total
entertainment industry stay the same as it is now...No. Will CCGs replace
RPGs...Short term yes, long term No. Will something else come down the pike and
take the limelight....most definitely Yes. Do I know what it will be.....I wish.
:)

To elaborate, Historically the United States (yes I am aware of the
international make up of this list, but I lack international data, If anyone
cares to provide it I am interested) has seen a succession of game fads. Some
are revivals of existing games or types of games, some are imports and some are
new creations. Examples of the major game fads that have effected the general
population are Monopoly, Canasta, Mah Jong, Bridge, Backgammon, RPGs, CCGs, Tile
Rummy games. Of shorter duration, but more recent vintage Trivial Pursuit,
Pictionary, Cathedral and the like. Additionally there where the recreational/
hobby fads such as Electric Trains, Control Line Planes, Plastic Car Modeling,
Military Aircraft, Slot Cars, Gas powered RC Cars, Paint Ball, Electric RC Cars
Model, Railroads, Armor Modeling, 54mm Figures, large scale figures, 30mm, 20mm
25mm 15mm 25mm "scale military figures. American Civil War Miniatures, Napolonic
Miniatures WRG ancient rules DBA ancient rules and others too numerous to name.

Suprisingly all these fads had several things in common. A growth curve
or trend. They start out as an activity of a few individuals, the materials used
are generally primitive and the individuals are often considered strange,
eccentric, or weird. Then the trend setters discover it, the quality of the
materials improve (the costs often goes up), acceptance improves and the number
of participants grows. Then the general public discovers it the type quantify
and quality of the supporting materials improves greatly, it is the "in"
activity, and "everyone is doing it (except the true trend setters who are off
discovering some thing new). Then the general public "discovers" the new fad and

moves on to it.

At this time one of three things happens. The activity for all intense
and purposes dies out completely ( for example where in your town can you buy a
Pachinko (sp?) machine? or race your slot car?). The activity returns to being
the province of a few strange, weird, eccentric individuals with their primitive
home made equipment. Or lastly (and most commonly) the activity continues at a
higher level then before it was discovered with better materials (from a small
group of suppliers) then before "discovery" and with greater public exeptance.
And periodically these activities get "rediscovered".

Which way is RPGs going? My guess is the last route, providing new blood
continues to join the hobby. CCGs on the other hand has a great potential,
because of the commercial marketing aspects of the game (no cards no game, and
homemade cards don't make it.), to die out completely. It is to early to
evaluate the effect of CCGs on the total game industry (CCGs draw from the same
disposable income pool that the rest of game and recreational industry depends
on to survive and grow.)

Personally I have been gaming for over 32 years and playing RPGs for 21
of them. I expect that I will still be at it (in one form or another) 40 years
from now. Do I expect it to take the same form it does now? Not at all.

David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org
Message no. 13
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 11:29:09 +0100
A Halliwell <shadowrn@********.itribe.net> said on 13:04/30 Apr 96...

> Either that, or the CCG market is beginning to implode due to overload.
>
> There are new CCGs every week, and there is no way the market can sustain
> itself for long.

That's true with almost everything, isn't it? Somebody sees a new way to
make money, everybody jumps onto the bandwagon, after a few years the
public loses interest (partly because of flooding of the market) and then
only the strong survive.

> Now, the big question.
> If Magic goes out of fashion, will WoTC try to reinstate their more reliable
> (but less profitable) RPG section, and if they do, how many gamers will
> forgive them and start buying their products again?
>
> If CCGs do die, it could be that WotC signed their own death warrant.

I tend to think of M:tG as the AD&D of the CCG market... It has all the
signs, if you ask me, and as such I don't really expect Magic to die and
fade away (although I'm by no means an expert on this :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It really makes you stop and think.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 14
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 11:29:09 +0100
dhinkley@***.org <shadowrn@********.itribe.net> said on 0:43/ 1 May 96...

> Additionally there where the recreational/ hobby fads such as [snip]
> Armor Modeling, 54mm Figures, large scale figures, 30mm, 20mm 25mm 15mm
> 25mm "scale military figures. American Civil War Miniatures, [snip]
>
> Suprisingly all these fads had several things in common. A growth curve
> or trend. They start out as an activity of a few individuals, the materials used
> are generally primitive and the individuals are often considered strange,
> eccentric, or weird. Then the trend setters discover it, the quality of the
> materials improve (the costs often goes up), acceptance improves and the number
> of participants grows. Then the general public discovers it the type quantify
> and quality of the supporting materials improves greatly, it is the "in"
> activity, and "everyone is doing it (except the true trend setters who are off
> discovering some thing new). Then the general public "discovers" the new
fad and
> moves on to it.

Although I generally agree with your reasoning, it doesn't work for
modelling (being a modeller as well as a roleplayer I guess I can safely
say this. Yes, I know it's not SR- or even RPG-relevant, but I have to say
this :).
The way I understand the history of military modelling, it has more or
less always been around, with various-quality models available since
world war 2. Then in the late 1960s, Japanese manufacturers decided to
enter the market (Tamiya Plastic Model Corp., mainly) and the hobby took
off -- in the 1970s new models were being released all the time, though
their standard was generally not very high. Then in the 1980s it dropped
off to higher standard but less new stuff, which created a market for
very high quality kits (cast in resin and white metal) and sold for very
high prices because of the manual production process (the highest cost in a
plastic kit is the box, believe it or not). Then, by 1990, one or two new
manufacturers (in Hong Kong and Taiwan) entered the market, and the older
"big boys" noticed that small manufacturers were doing well, so they
decided to bring out more new releases, of high to very high standard
and also a rather high price, BTW (Tamiya's releases of the last 5 years
are *very* good, as are AFV Club and about half of Dragon's output :)

There has not really been a "general public discovery" apart from the fact
that models are available in toy stores, but nobody in his right mind is
going to give these models to kids to play with, if you ask me.

> Personally I have been gaming for over 32 years and playing RPGs for 21
> of them. I expect that I will still be at it (in one form or another) 40 years
> from now. Do I expect it to take the same form it does now? Not at all.

That makes you what, 85 in 2036? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It really makes you stop and think.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 15
From: Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 14:08:18 +0300 (EET DST)
On Wed, 1 May 1996 dhinkley@***.ORG wrote:

> Suprisingly all these fads had several things in common. A growth curve
> or trend. They start out as an activity of a few individuals, the materials used

Well, I wouldn't exactly call the Product Life Cycle Curve surprising...

> At this time one of three things happens. The activity for all intense
> and purposes dies out completely ( for example where in your town can you buy a
> Pachinko (sp?) machine? or race your slot car?). The activity returns to being
> the province of a few strange, weird, eccentric individuals with their primitive
> home made equipment. Or lastly (and most commonly) the activity continues at a
> higher level then before it was discovered with better materials (from a small
> group of suppliers) then before "discovery" and with greater public
exeptance.
> And periodically these activities get "rediscovered".
>
> Which way is RPGs going? My guess is the last route, providing new blood
> continues to join the hobby. CCGs on the other hand has a great potential,

At least in Finland I see RPGs being in the decline stage, with card
games only in the declining growth stage. As per my earlier message, my view
(once again, over here in Finland) is that the card games act as an
effective substitute competitor -- not a divergent fad -- to RPGs and are
taking over that demand.

But I hope you're right.

---------------------------------------------
: Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich :
: only just : :
: good enough! : aistrich@********.hkkk.fi :
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Message no. 16
From: Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 14:15:58 +0300 (EET DST)
On Tue, 30 Apr 1996, TopCat wrote:

> >Roleplaying is going out, now it's just card games. Those companies which
> >don't make card games may not survive -- just look at GDW -- which is of
>
> Just look at Wizards of the Coast. You mean you didn't know they are just
> short of bankrupt?
>
Hey, saying that RPG companies who don't make card games don't seem to be
doing too well is not the same as saying that card game companies would
be making bundles... as has already been mentioned here, the rapid growth
of the card game market combined with low entry barriers led to too many
people entering at the same time, which naturally leads to fierce
rivalry, which leads to small margins, etc., etc.

> Shadowrun has picked up considerably. All White Wolf games do extremely
> well (the new V:tDA book is GREAT!). The HERO system is still around and
> kicking in all its forms. GURPS is drawing converts by the day.
>
Once again, I can only speak for Finland, so maybe you should disregard
this, but over here we don't see the kind of sales figures anymore there
used to be, bookstores have stopped carrying RPGs, etc. Here it is going
back to a hobby of a very limited group of people. While I kind of like
that "exclusivity", I hate seeing games getting harder to get, getting more
expensive, or dropping out of the market altogether.

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: Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich :
: only just : :
: good enough! : aistrich@********.hkkk.fi :
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Message no. 17
From: Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 14:35:24 +0300 (EET DST)
On Tue, 30 Apr 1996, Robyn King-Nitschke wrote:

> Xyphius writes:
>
> > I think all these things are
> > going out including RPG because before there were tings like computer games
>
> I don't think RPGs are going anywhere anytime soon, because they fill
>
> Whether it will continue to be popular or whether it will become even
> more of a specialty market (like wargames or model railroads) remains
> to be seen, though.

Well now, I'd be willing to bet that when we say "RPGs are going out" we
don't mean that they'd become completely extinct, but exactly what you
are saying might happen: they're becoming a more limited market.

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: only just : :
: good enough! : aistrich@********.hkkk.fi :
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Message no. 18
From: "Dr. Bolthy von Schotz" <bolthy@**.com>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 13:59:26 -0500 (CDT)
On Tue, 30 Apr 1996, J Hulley-Miller wrote:

> Greetings,
>
> 30 Apr 96 13:55, "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za> wrote:
>
> >AS> Unless card games go out of fashion I would recon that we are
> >AS> most probably the last serious generation of RPGers left. At least
> >AS> untill something else catchs the imagination.
>
> There was a similar 'fad' about 10 years back. Remember those RPG books where
> you would turn to a page based on which action you selected ? They were around
> for a few years, now they arent found anywhere.
>
> jhm
>

You mean choose-your-own-adventure books? They're still around I
think... just not in as many quantities as before. =) I think they
probably appear in elementary school book-ordering clubs like Arrow or
whatever they call it now...



|\ /\ |\ | |\
|/ \/ | \ |\ | \
|\ /\ | |/ \ |
|/ / \ | | \|

http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bolthy
"Remember: Heaven is Blue. Tomorrow, the world."
-Head of the Blue Meanies
Message no. 19
From: Hairy Smurf <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 18:11:30 -0400 (EDT)
At 11:29 5/1/96 +0100, you wrote:
>A Halliwell <shadowrn@********.itribe.net> said on 13:04/30 Apr 96...
>
>> Either that, or the CCG market is beginning to implode due to overload.
>>
>> There are new CCGs every week, and there is no way the market can sustain
>> itself for long.
>
>That's true with almost everything, isn't it? Somebody sees a new way to
>make money, everybody jumps onto the bandwagon, after a few years the
>public loses interest (partly because of flooding of the market) and then
>only the strong survive.
>

Yeah, I we're lucky all of the "internet providers" will go the same way and
the net can become a useful tool again instead of a political battleground.

>Gurth@******.nl

Sasquatch

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Message no. 20
From: dhinkley@***.org
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 15:34:04 -0700 (PDT)
On Wed, 1 May 1996, "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

>Although I generally agree with your reasoning, it doesn't work for
>modelling (being a modeller as well as a roleplayer I guess I can safely
>say this. Yes, I know it's not SR- or even RPG-relevant, but I have to say
>this :).
>The way I understand the history of military modelling, it has more or
>less always been around, with various-quality models available since
>world war 2. Then in the late 1960s, Japanese manufacturers decided to
>enter the market (Tamiya Plastic Model Corp., mainly) and the hobby took
>off -- in the 1970s new models were being released all the time, though
>their standard was generally not very high. Then in the 1980s it dropped
>off to higher standard but less new stuff, which created a market for
>very high quality kits (cast in resin and white metal) and sold for very
>high prices because of the manual production process (the highest cost in a
>plastic kit is the box, believe it or not). Then, by 1990, one or two new
>manufacturers (in Hong Kong and Taiwan) entered the market, and the older
>"big boys" noticed that small manufacturers were doing well, so they
>decided to bring out more new releases, of high to very high standard
>and also a rather high price, BTW (Tamiya's releases of the last 5 years
>are *very* good, as are AFV Club and about half of Dragon's output :)
>
>There has not really been a "general public discovery" apart from the fact
>that models are available in toy stores, but nobody in his right mind is
>going to give these models to kids to play with, if you ask me.
>
You have a valid point, I know of several very large hobby stores in the
San Francisco Bay Area that have an interesting floor plan all the main
departments (RC, Miniatures, Games, Model Trains, Tools, Dolls, Craft supplies
etc.) are arranged around the edge of the store. How the center is stocked
depends on what is hot and what is not. Each of the departments extends out into
the center based on sales and interest. I found it interesting to watch the ebb
and flow as particular hobbies came and went. No department ever disappeared yet
the amount of selection available came and went. As to the specifics of plastic
models, the use of the word "discovery" to describe the process is probably a
less then accurate way to describe the process of changing public and
manufacturers interest in any given facet of that hobby.

To return for a minute to role-playing games and the CCGs the question
is which manufactures are going to survive and in what form. Consider FASA (A
quick trivia question...What does FASA stand for?) it started out making ship
diagrams for the first Traveller game under license from GDW. It no longer makes
or sells any thing that is not for the game lines it controls and is now
licensing out aspects of its game universes. GDW is in hard times not because of
CCGs but because of Gygax's fantasy game and legal discussions with TSR. Even
TSR has changed (second trivia question....What does TSR stand for?) it started
out making miniature armor (HO or 1/87 or 20mm) rules. It's first hit, D&D
established a whole hobby industry as Magic has in CCGs. TSR has managed to hang
on still milking that original product (22 years is not bad). What will happen
to Wizards of the Coast depends on their management and how the wind fall from
Magic is invested.

Here is a thought to consider. FASA turned down a chance to produce
Magic. The designer went to FASA before WoC. Consider what impact that would
have had on Shadowrun?

>That makes you what, 85 in 2036? :)
>
Yes, and 44 now or how I prefer to state it I am eleven for the 4th time going
on 15 for the third.
Message no. 21
From: tsbtal@********.com (Tal Kedem)
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 19:41:03 -0400
On May 01, 1996 15:34:04, 'dhinkley@***.org' wrote:


> To return for a minute to role-playing games and the CCGs the question
>is which manufactures are going to survive and in what form. Consider FASA
(A
>quick trivia question...What does FASA stand for?) it started out making
ship

Freedonian Aeronautics and Space Administration :)

>diagrams for the first Traveller game under license from GDW. It no longer

>makes
>or sells any thing that is not for the game lines it controls and is now
>licensing out aspects of its game universes. GDW is in hard times not
because
>of
>CCGs but because of Gygax's fantasy game and legal discussions with TSR.
Even
>TSR has changed (second trivia question....What does TSR stand for?) it
started

Hmm, a question on many of our minds....

>out making miniature armor (HO or 1/87 or 20mm) rules. It's first hit, D&D

>established a whole hobby industry as Magic has in CCGs. TSR has managed
to
>hang
>on still milking that original product (22 years is not bad). What will
happen
>
>to Wizards of the Coast depends on their management and how the wind fall
from
>
>Magic is invested.

Agreed, WoC is falling on hard times, it seems that they started a trend,
and are starting to lose their grasp on it. Decipher (namely) and many
other companies are taking the concept, and some say, making it better.


> Here is a thought to consider. FASA turned down a chance to produce
>Magic. The designer went to FASA before WoC. Consider what impact that
would
>have had on Shadowrun?
>
>>That makes you what, 85 in 2036? :)
>>
>Yes, and 44 now or how I prefer to state it I am eleven for the 4th time
going
>
>on 15 for the third.

Really? As far as I'm concerned, FASA was making a wise decision (if it
knew it or not). WoC dropped ALL of it's non-CCG products near the middle
of the CCG explosion, and in the process alienated some die-hard fans of
their RPG's (I forget the names of their RPGs tho, I'm not one of those
die-hard fans (obviously)). And these fans would probably have been loyal
even after the (phrophecized <sp?>) downsizing of the CCG market.

Had FASA taken Magic, then I don't know if this list would be as robust as
ever, the selection of Shadowrun products anywhere near the current size,
and the support and popularity as high either. FASA would have probably
downsized the RPG department (in both releases AND workers...) and who
knows how many of us would be alienated....

--
Tal Kedem
GAT d- s: a--- C++++ ULC>+++ P+>+++ L+>++ E W+ N+ o !K-- w !O M--
V PS+ PE+ Y++ PGP t++ !5 X R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D+ G+ e@ h@ !r y?
- tsbtal@***.pipeline.com - tallion@*****.steinmetz.albany.edu
-tallion@******.net -
"Cthulhu in `96 - Why settle for a lesser evil?"
Message no. 22
From: Fro <fro@***.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 19:03:52 -0600
At 19:41 01/05/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Even TSR has changed (second trivia question....What does TSR stand for?)

Originally stood for Tactical Studies Rules, althought I do believe they say
it doesn't really mean that anymore...makes you wonder what would happen if
someone started a company called Tactical Studies Rules, doesn' it?
Message no. 23
From: MENARD Steve <menars@***.UMontreal.CA>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 22:28:54 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 1 May 1996 dhinkley@***.org wrote:

> To return for a minute to role-playing games and the CCGs the question
> is which manufactures are going to survive and in what form. Consider FASA (A
> quick trivia question...What does FASA stand for?) it started out making ship
Freedonian Air and Space Administration.

> diagrams for the first Traveller game under license from GDW. It no longer makes
> or sells any thing that is not for the game lines it controls and is now
> licensing out aspects of its game universes. GDW is in hard times not because of
> CCGs but because of Gygax's fantasy game and legal discussions with TSR. Even
> TSR has changed (second trivia question....What does TSR stand for?) it started
> out making miniature armor (HO or 1/87 or 20mm) rules. It's first hit, D&D
> established a whole hobby industry as Magic has in CCGs. TSR has managed to hang
> on still milking that original product (22 years is not bad). What will happen
> to Wizards of the Coast depends on their management and how the wind fall from
> Magic is invested.
>
> Here is a thought to consider. FASA turned down a chance to produce
> Magic. The designer went to FASA before WoC. Consider what impact that would
> have had on Shadowrun?
>
Isnt FASA supposed to realease a CCG base on Shadowrun?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- |\_/| Still The One and Only Wolfbane! ---
--- |o o| " Hey! Why ya lookin' at me so weird? Ain't ya 'ver seen a ---
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--- 0 Steve Menard menars@***.UMontreal.Ca ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 24
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 09:55:51 GMT + 2:00
<snip>

@ > There was a similar 'fad' about 10 years back. Remember those RPG books whe
@ re
@ > you would turn to a page based on which action you selected ? They were aro
@ und
@ > for a few years, now they arent found anywhere.
@ >
@ > jhm
@ >
@
@ You mean choose-your-own-adventure books? They're still around I
@ think... just not in as many quantities as before. =) I think they
@ probably appear in elementary school book-ordering clubs like Arrow or
@ whatever they call it now...
@
Actually they are still around in fairly large quantities, you
just have to know where to look. I can claim this as directly
oppersite the counter where I work, there are several shelves of the
things.



Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to fact the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 25
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 11:50:56 +0100
Matti Aistrich <shadowrn@********.itribe.net> said on 14:15/ 1 May 96...

> Once again, I can only speak for Finland, so maybe you should disregard
> this, but over here we don't see the kind of sales figures anymore there
> used to be, bookstores have stopped carrying RPGs, etc. Here it is going
> back to a hobby of a very limited group of people. While I kind of like
> that "exclusivity", I hate seeing games getting harder to get, getting more

> expensive, or dropping out of the market altogether.

I guess I'm somehow fortunate -- something that isn't for sale here can't
be discontinued either... :/
A number of toy stores in my area carry Magic, one sells some other CCGs
as well, and one book/comic store has about 5 RPG items (some 1994 issues
of Dragon and a few WH40K things...) There's no question of RPGs getting
less sales, because sales can't drop below 0, can they? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Why don't we get together and call ourselves an institute?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 26
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 11:50:56 +0100
dhinkley@***.org <shadowrn@********.itribe.net> said on 15:34/ 1 May 96...

> To return for a minute to role-playing games and the CCGs the question
> is which manufactures are going to survive and in what form. Consider FASA (A
> quick trivia question...What does FASA stand for?)

Freedonian Aeronautics and Space Administration.

> it started out making ship
> diagrams for the first Traveller game under license from GDW. It no longer makes
> or sells any thing that is not for the game lines it controls and is now
> licensing out aspects of its game universes. GDW is in hard times not because of
> CCGs but because of Gygax's fantasy game and legal discussions with TSR. Even
> TSR has changed (second trivia question....What does TSR stand for?)

Something in the order of Tactical Simulations Research, I believe,
although I doubt it stands for anything except money anymore these days :)

> What will happen to Wizards of the Coast depends on their management
> and how the wind fall from Magic is invested.

Going by the way their catalog looks, either everything is going very well
or they are trying to make it appear like that... However, if they play
their cards right (to the humor-impaired: I'm not going to say "pun
intended" here :) Magic will stay for a long time to come, if you ask me.

> Here is a thought to consider. FASA turned down a chance to produce
> Magic. The designer went to FASA before WoC. Consider what impact that would
> have had on Shadowrun?

That is pure speculation, of course. WotC was not as big as FASA, so who
knows? Maybe FASA would have turned to making CCGs exclusively, or maybe
they'd have marketed it completely wrong and nobody'd be playing card games
at all at the moment; some middle road between the two would also be
possible, of course.

> >That makes you what, 85 in 2036? :)
> >
> Yes, and 44 now or how I prefer to state it I am eleven for the 4th time going
> on 15 for the third.

You're one of those people who go around saying "You're as young as you
feel like," aren't you? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Why don't we get together and call ourselves an institute?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 27
From: Bert Van de Merckt <Bert.VandeMerckt@****.be>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 16:46:01 +0200
Matti Aistrich wrote:
> Once again, I can only speak for Finland, so maybe you should disregard
> this, but over here we don't see the kind of sales figures anymore there
> used to be, bookstores have stopped carrying RPGs, etc. Here it is going
> back to a hobby of a very limited group of people. While I kind of like
> that "exclusivity", I hate seeing games getting harder to get, getting more
> expensive, or dropping out of the market altogether.

In Belgium, roleplaying games sales actually picked up because of the increasing
card games sales: the latter attracted a much wider audience, they came into the
"special shops" that sold CCGs, saw all kinds of interesting books (or even a
game in progress!), and asked around...

The biggest problem with RPGs here is the availability of source material.
Two years ago, there were two shops in Belgium. Since the CCG-market has
exploded though, new shops arrived, and old ones have expanded. Actually,
it is a *good* thing, these CCGs.

I know of a few RPG-CCG clubs, where people started playing CCGs, and eventually
moved on to RPGs (mostly students).

And I'm doing my best to support the industry <grin>: I teach a lot of people
RPGs: what it is, play a demo session, ...

+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
"Kryten, unpack Rachel and get out the puncture repair
kit. I'm ALIVE!!!!!"(just before he explodes) - Rimmer
****************************************************
mailto:bert.vandemerckt@****.be
http://www.ping.be/~ping8611
Visit my Anne Clark fanpage:
http://www.ping.be/~ping8611/anneclark/anneclark.html
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+
Message no. 28
From: Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 11:23:24 +0300 (EET DST)
On Thu, 2 May 1996, Andre' Selmer wrote:

> @ > There was a similar 'fad' about 10 years back. Remember those RPG books whe
> @ re
> @ > you would turn to a page based on which action you selected ? They were aro
> @ und
> @ > for a few years, now they arent found anywhere.
> @ >
> @ You mean choose-your-own-adventure books? They're still around I
> @ think... just not in as many quantities as before. =) I think they
> @ probably appear in elementary school book-ordering clubs like Arrow or
> @ whatever they call it now...
> @
> Actually they are still around in fairly large quantities, you
> just have to know where to look. I can claim this as directly

Yup, the target market just changed: they started out by selling RPG type
adventures to us roleplayers, then moved on to selling them to kids as
the big book publishers noticed the idea.


---------------------------------------------
: Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich :
: only just : :
: good enough! : aistrich@********.hkkk.fi :
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Message no. 29
From: Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 12:19:16 +0300 (EET DST)
On Thu, 2 May 1996, Gurth wrote:

> dhinkley@***.org <shadowrn@********.itribe.net> said on 15:34/ 1 May 96...
>
> > To return for a minute to role-playing games and the CCGs the question
> > is which manufactures are going to survive and in what form. Consider FASA (A
> > quick trivia question...What does FASA stand for?)
>
> Freedonian Aeronautics and Space Administration.
>
Taken from the Marx Brothers -- I bet someone will reply to this and
tell us all the original name of the movie now.

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: only just : :
: good enough! : aistrich@********.hkkk.fi :
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Message no. 30
From: LOGGING V <LOGGING_5@**_AUI.DECAUX.VNO.mts.dec.com>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 11:24:09 +0000 (GMT)
If the trading card games take up the gaming world-and I don't think they will-
I'd say who cares.
Those people who really like to do RPGs will always be there and there's enough
material of let's say SR to fuel a campaign for years.
Those who change to the TCG faction and wont come back to role playing might
be unserious munchkinistic wannabe players who don't care about real role
playing anyway,so why not let them stay where they are.
Besides that,I think that the market can't take many more TCGs anyway.
It's just that everyone tries to make as much money as possible as fast as
possible
D-COY
Message no. 31
From: dhinkley@***.org
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Sun, 5 May 1996 23:56:26 -0700 (PDT)
On Thu, 2 May 1996, "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
>dhinkley@***.org <shadowrn@********.itribe.net> said on 15:34/ 1 May 96...

>> >That makes you what, 85 in 2036? :)
>> >
>> Yes, and 44 now or how I prefer to state it I am eleven for the 4th time
going
>> on 15 for the third.
>
>You're one of those people who go around saying "You're as young as you
>feel like," aren't you? :)
>
No, I am of the opinion that while I can't help growing old you can refuse to
grow up. A couple of my house mates or of the opinion that I am going on 3 for
the 15th time. They just don't appreciate my highly tuned sense of humor.

Did you hear about the robbery and shooting at Christy's new restaurant
in the Redmond Barrens. She had hired a pair of trolls as bouncers and to
provide security. When the robbery started the pair grabbed their LMGs and began
shooting, several belts later without hitting any of the perps. The by the time
it was over the customers were all rolling on the floor with laughter. Christy
terminated them as bouncers and booked them as a comedy act.....The New Christy
Miss Trolls.

Sorry I couldn't resist. My resistance is down, I spent yesterday
afternoon and night in a small bedroom with a dot-matrix printer printing out a
large file (19 hours and 37 minutes worth of large file).

Regarding the answers to the two trivia questions:
FASA = Freedonian Aeronautics and Space Administration. Freedonia was a
fictional country in the Marx Brothers movie "Duck Soup". Groucho was the
president of Freedona

TSR = Tactical Studies Rules

David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org
Message no. 32
From: Ken <kwhorner@*******.edu>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 11:32:19 -0700 (PDT)
On Sun, 5 May 1996 dhinkley@***.org wrote:

>
> TSR = Tactical Studies Rules
>
Not The Strategic Review?

Nutcracker
Message no. 33
From: Peter David Boddy <pdboddy@****.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Mon, 6 May 96 16:04:08 EDT
Ken writes:
>
> On Sun, 5 May 1996 dhinkley@***.org wrote:
>
> >
> > TSR = Tactical Studies Rules
> >
> Not The Strategic Review?

Nope, it is the Tactical Studies Rules. The Strategic Review was a
precursor to Dragon Magazine. The fact that both intitials are TSR is a
coincedence (or is it?).

Pete


Pete aka Spitfire
Test your might...
Classic Sub-Zero Scorpion Reptile Ermac Classic Smoke Noob Saibot
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter David Boddy
Carleton University
Email address: pdboddy@****.carleton.ca
Email address: bx955@*******.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 34
From: dhinkley@***.org
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Mon, 6 May 1996 15:35:41 -0700 (PDT)
On Mon, 6 May 1996, Ken <kwhorner@*******.edu> wrote:
>On Sun, 5 May 1996 dhinkley@***.org wrote:
>
>>
>> TSR = Tactical Studies Rules
>>
>Not The Strategic Review?
>
>Nutcracker
>
Strategic Review was the title of TSRs first magazine. After about 6 issues it
was divided into two separate publications, Little Wars and the Dragon. Only the
Dragon is still in print


David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org
Message no. 35
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 14:46:55 -0700
dhinkley@***.org wrote:
> Did you hear about the robbery and shooting at Christy's new
> restaurant in the Redmond Barrens. She had hired a pair of trolls as
> bouncers and to provide security. When the robbery started the pair
> grabbed their LMGs and began shooting, several belts later without
> hitting any of the perps. The by the time it was over the customers
> were all rolling on the floor with laughter. Christy terminated them as
> bouncers and booked them as a comedy act.....
> The New Christy Miss Trolls.
> Good Lord, that's ancient! I've not heard the New Christy Minstrels
since I was a Knee Biter


... and the cat came back.
Yes, the cat came back,
and he wouldn't stay away.

Meow kitty,
Meow so pretty,
Meow such a pitty,
but the cat came back.
Message no. 36
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: RPGs on their way out?
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 14:35:27 -0700
MENARD Steve wrote:
> Isnt FASA supposed to realease a CCG base on Shadowrun?

Yes, they were approached with the idea last July about a CCG that could
be used to conduct the net running portion of the adventures and be a
stand alone game with the addition of a few specialized cards ... no
NetRunner(tm) is not it. I understand from one of the people doing
artwork for it that the game hit a few snags on the technical side of the
project and will miss it's projected release date for this winter.

And before I get asked about it here ... No John does not know what's in
the rules for the card game or where the hang up is in the system, he
doesn't even play SR -- he's just a good artist in a job pool and his
boss got the bid from one of the designers for the CCG.

Further Reading

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Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.