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From:	One Ronin <ronin@*******.COM>
Subject:	Ruger Thunderbolt?????
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:47:17 PST

Message no. 1 I have a question. In several of the SR books I have, they mention a
weapon called a Ruger Thunderbolt....primarily a Lone Star weapon,
right? I've figured out that it's some kind of heavy pistol, but I
don't have the Lone Star sourcebook (nor can I get it) to find out for
sure. If anyone out there has the sourcebook and can send me the stats
and the description (an image would be a plus!) then I'd appreciate it
at ton. Thanks everyone!

-Ronin

What I've felt, what I've known,
Turn the pages, turn to stone,
Behind the door, should I open it for you?
What I've felt, what I've known,
Sick and tired I stand ALONE,
Could you be there,
Cause I'm the one who waits for you,
Or are you Unforgiven too.....

-ICQ #:11373195

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From:	Scott W <see_scott_run@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt?????
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:38:53 -0800

Message no. 2 ---One Ronin <ronin@*******.COM> wrote:
> I have a question. In several of the SR books I
> have, they mention a weapon called a Ruger
> Thunderbolt....primarily a Lone Star weapon, right?
> I've figured out that it's some kind of heavy pistol,
> but I don't have the Lone Star sourcebook (nor can I
> get it) to find out for sure. If anyone out there
> has the sourcebook and can send me the stats and the
> description (an image would be a plus!) then I'd
> appreciate it at ton. Thanks everyone!
>
> -Ronin

Sorry, no stats for you (I'm hunting that book down
too), but I can tell you what I remember about the
gun. It's a heavy pistol with a normal 9M damage, but
it's got a true BF option (that is to say, a simple
action to fire a burst, unlike the Guardian which uses
a complex action). The burst recoil is calculated
in a funny way...they say that the gun fires the
bullets so fast that the barrel doesn't have time to
rise and thus affect accuracy (no recoil modifier for
the first burst). The second burst in the same action,
however, has a +4 modifier (I'm guessing on this
one...I know there's a modifier, I can't remember
exactly what). So it's a nasty, nasty gun, able to
to 12S damage with no TN modifier.
If you're wondering about how to get it, that's
easy. Just pry it out from the cold, dead fingers of
a high ranking, SOTA equipped Lone Star officer. And
then prepare to fight the long arm of the law, chummer
>:)

Scott
==

"If you can't win, don't join them;
learn how to lose."
-Walt Kelly

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From:	"Hatchetman, GUV" <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt?????
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:23:44 -0800

Message no. 3 > Sorry, no stats for you (I'm hunting that book down
> too), but I can tell you what I remember about the
> gun. It's a heavy pistol with a normal 9M damage, but
> it's got a true BF option (that is to say, a simple
> action to fire a burst, unlike the Guardian which uses
> a complex action). The burst recoil is calculated
> in a funny way...they say that the gun fires the
> bullets so fast that the barrel doesn't have time to
> rise and thus affect accuracy (no recoil modifier for
> the first burst). The second burst in the same action,
> however, has a +4 modifier (I'm guessing on this
> one...I know there's a modifier, I can't remember
> exactly what). So it's a nasty, nasty gun, able to
> to 12S damage with no TN modifier.
> If you're wondering about how to get it, that's
> easy. Just pry it out from the cold, dead fingers of
> a high ranking, SOTA equipped Lone Star officer. And
> then prepare to fight the long arm of the law, chummer
> >:)

+4? Wouldn't it be +3 for the first burst, and any other burst thereafter?
I think it used heavy weapon recoil too. Could be wrong, don't have the
Lone Star sourcebook either.
Yup, and then every time you nail some poor bugger with it, the cops are
going to know who shot him. The same guy that killed it's original owner.
Not a good idea, cause if they catch you with it, they're going to charge
you with every crime it was used to commit, first and foremost being the
cop's death.
Of course, that's a nasty trick to play on some guy. Off a few guys and
then plant it in his house or car. ^_^

Hatchetman, GUV.

From:	Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt?????
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:24:48 -0600

Message no. 4 : I have a question. In several of the SR books I have, they mention a
:weapon called a Ruger Thunderbolt....primarily a Lone Star weapon,
:right?

Yes, its in the Lonestar book. They developed the wepon, then liscened it
for production to Ruger; for the first year, Ruger can only sell them to
LS (thats until 9-7-55 at latest, which has already long since passed in
the FASA timeline).

:I've figured out that it's some kind of heavy pistol, but I
:don't have the Lone Star sourcebook (nor can I get it) to find out for
:sure. If anyone out there has the sourcebook and can send me the stats
:and the description (an image would be a plus!) then I'd appreciate it
:at ton. Thanks everyone!

HP, Conceal 4, 12 shot clip, 3rnd burst ONLY. No recoil on the first, +4
on the second.
12s damage (per burst), 2.75 Kg, 1000¥, 14/12 days, SI3
+250¥ for integral lazer, +400¥ for integral smartlink
The drawing is nothing special- one sort of buck-Rogers like (with a
normal barrel), one manhunter-esque.

Since the special recoil effect comes from a hyper-fast cycle mechanism, I
would NOT allow the use of gas vents; they would sap energy needed for the
rapid fire mechanism to work.

From:	"D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt?????
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:20:00 -0600

Message no. 5 On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:47:17 PST One Ronin <ronin@*******.COM> writes:
> I have a question. In several of the SR books I have, they mention a
>weapon called a Ruger Thunderbolt....primarily a Lone Star weapon,
>right? I've figured out that it's some kind of heavy pistol, but I
>don't have the Lone Star sourcebook (nor can I get it) to find out for
>sure. If anyone out there has the sourcebook and can send me the stats
>and the description (an image would be a plus!) then I'd appreciate it
>at ton. Thanks everyone!

Wouldn't that be ... Illegal? Here, instaed, use the Savalette Guardian
(From Fields of Fire) in place of the Ruger Thunderbolt. Also, have you
tried www.crazyegors.com?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

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From:	Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt?????
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:55:48 -0600

Message no. 6 :+4? Wouldn't it be +3 for the first burst, and any other burst
thereafter?
:I think it used heavy weapon recoil too. Could be wrong, don't have the
:Lone Star sourcebook either.

Nope, zero for the first, +4 for the second, normal type recol.
As I said, allowing Gas vents is a poor idea, both gievn the guns
description, and for game balance.

:Yup, and then every time you nail some poor bugger with it, the cops are
:going to know who shot him.

They (supposedly) have been marketed comercially since late 2055. Like
the Morrisy Elan- anybody can buy it, good luck finding the stats. With
an avalibity of 12/14, it's (slightly) easier to get than APDS...

Mongoose

From:	Scott W <see_scott_run@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt?????
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:00:29 -0800

Message no. 7 ---"Hatchetman, GUV" <hatchet@*********.BC.CA> wrote:

<snip>

> +4? Wouldn't it be +3 for the first burst, and any
> other burst thereafter? I think it used heavy weapon
> recoil too. Could be wrong, don't have the Lone Star
> sourcebook either.

<snip & paste from another post>

> No recoil on the first, +4 on the second.

Vindication! I guess I remembered correctly. As
an aside, is there a list policy as to the posting of
material printed in the sourcebooks? Somebody
mentioned the i-word...<shiver>

Scott
==

"If you can't win, don't join them;
learn how to lose."
-Walt Kelly

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From:	nocturnal@*******.NET
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt?????
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:06:15 -0600

Message no. 8 Hatchetman, GUV wrote:
>
> > Sorry, no stats for you (I'm hunting that book down
> > too), but I can tell you what I remember about the
> > gun. It's a heavy pistol with a normal 9M damage, but
> > it's got a true BF option (that is to say, a simple
> > action to fire a burst, unlike the Guardian which uses
> > a complex action). The burst recoil is calculated
> > in a funny way...they say that the gun fires the
> > bullets so fast that the barrel doesn't have time to
> > rise and thus affect accuracy (no recoil modifier for
> > the first burst). The second burst in the same action,
> > however, has a +4 modifier (I'm guessing on this
> > one...I know there's a modifier, I can't remember
> > exactly what). So it's a nasty, nasty gun, able to
> > to 12S damage with no TN modifier.
> > If you're wondering about how to get it, that's
> > easy. Just pry it out from the cold, dead fingers of
> > a high ranking, SOTA equipped Lone Star officer. And
> > then prepare to fight the long arm of the law, chummer
> > >:)
>
> +4? Wouldn't it be +3 for the first burst, and any other burst thereafter?
> I think it used heavy weapon recoil too. Could be wrong, don't have the
> Lone Star sourcebook either.
> Yup, and then every time you nail some poor bugger with it, the cops are
> going to know who shot him. The same guy that killed it's original owner.
> Not a good idea, cause if they catch you with it, they're going to charge
> you with every crime it was used to commit, first and foremost being the
> cop's death.
> Of course, that's a nasty trick to play on some guy. Off a few guys and
> then plant it in his house or car. ^_^
>
> Hatchetman, GUV.

Ok... here's how it is (I think). No penalty for the first burst. Second burst receives
standard burst fire targets and all. The gun does not fire semi auto- only Burstfire- 12
S all the time. This, my friend, is why I made a detective character (not the archetype)
that could be called a munchkin if used in that way.

Noc

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt?????
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:25:42 -0500

Message no. 9 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 04:00 PM 12/16/98 -0800, Scott wrote:
> Vindication! I guess I remembered correctly. As
>an aside, is there a list policy as to the posting of
>material printed in the sourcebooks? Somebody
>mentioned the i-word...<shiver>

The stats for the Ruger Thunderbolt constitute a very small portion of
the signifigant content of the Lone Star sourcebook. As such, the
"Fair Use" portion of copyright law should apply in this situation.
"Fair Use" allows for "small" portions of copyrighted material to be
quoted for a variety of reasons, including educational purposes. (And
being on this list certainly counts as an education. *g* )

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From:	"Hatchetman, GUV" <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt?????
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:16:13 -0800

Message no. 10 > HP, Conceal 4, 12 shot clip, 3rnd burst ONLY. No recoil on the first, +4
> on the second.
> 12s damage (per burst), 2.75 Kg, 1000¥, 14/12 days, SI3
> +250¥ for integral lazer, +400¥ for integral smartlink
> The drawing is nothing special- one sort of buck-Rogers like (with a
> normal barrel), one manhunter-esque.
>
> Since the special recoil effect comes from a hyper-fast cycle mechanism,
I
> would NOT allow the use of gas vents; they would sap energy needed for
the
> rapid fire mechanism to work.

Dang, burst only? I hate that. Useful though, since there's no recoil on
the first shot, but that mostly makes my muscle mods useless for recoil.
Ditto on the venting. Mechanically, the cyclic rate combined with the
venting would either just be completely pointless, or push the gun down
like normal, except the gun wasn't trying to rise, so it'd throw it off the
target, wouldn't it? Dunno. I've gotta get that sourcebook.

Hatchetman, GUV.

From:	Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt?????
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:40:59 -0600

Message no. 11 :Dang, burst only? I hate that. Useful though, since there's no recoil on
:the first shot, but that mostly makes my muscle mods useless for recoil.
:Ditto on the venting. Mechanically, the cyclic rate combined with the
:venting would either just be completely pointless, or push the gun down
:like normal, except the gun wasn't trying to rise, so it'd throw it off
the
:target, wouldn't it? Dunno. I've gotta get that sourcebook.

My samurai character (Mongoose) had one. (I got it off a physad SAS agent
I took out with a sock full of quarters- idiot tried to ambush me, and
lost...)
I immediately slapped a GV 2 on the t-hawk (no concealment loss). With
his 9 STR, that meant no recoil. Re-reading the description, it struck
me the Gas Vent was probably a bad idea. Seeing the effect, I think any
sane GM would agree.
Anyhow, I used it maybe twice. The SPAS has better range, for about the
same conceal (???), and I like something that can shoot more than 4 times
without loading (well, the net gun is damn cool, but its special) and is
(more importantly) fairly easy to replace. I loose tazers like a kid
looses mittens, cause once you use it, you almost always shift to melee...

Mongoose

From:	Charles E Thul <cthul@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt?????
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:03:35 -0600

Message no. 12 On Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:47:17 PST One Ronin <ronin@*******.COM> writes:
> I have a question. In several of the SR books I have, they mention
>a weapon called a Ruger Thunderbolt....primarily a Lone Star weapon,
>right? I've figured out that it's some kind of heavy pistol, but I
>don't have the Lone Star sourcebook (nor can I get it) to find out for
>sure. If anyone out there has the sourcebook and can send me the
>stats and the description (an image would be a plus!) then I'd
appreciate it
>at ton. Thanks everyone!
>

I don't personally have the Lone Star book, but I did write down the
stats for the Thunderbolt. It is a heavy pistol only capable of burst
fire, the first burst does not have any recoil penalty, the second burst
has a +4. It is only available to Lone Star officers to a certain date (I
don't remember what exactly that date was, but it was before the Big D
got bumped off, and possibly before Bug City). I don't have the avail or
cost or SI, but I do have the basic stats:
Conceal-4 Mode-BF Ammo-12c Damage-12S (burst already figured in)
Weight-2.75kg

IMHO it is the best handgun produced in published FASA products.
Charlie

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From:	Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt.
Date:	Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:46:59 PST

Message no. 13 Three items.
Item one:

> I have a question. In several of the SR books I have, they mention
a
>weapon called a Ruger Thunderbolt....primarily a Lone Star weapon,
>right? I've figured out that it's some kind of heavy pistol, but I
>don't have the Lone Star sourcebook (nor can I get it) to find out for
>sure. If anyone out there has the sourcebook and can send me the stats
>and the description (an image would be a plus!) then I'd appreciate it
>at ton. Thanks everyone!

Type: Heavy(you were right) Conceal: 4 Mode: BF Ammo: 12(c)
Damage: 12S(BF only) Weight: 2.75 Cost: 1,000Y Avail: 14/12 days
Street Index: 3

Integeral Laser Sight or Smartlink is an extra 250Y.
Note: No recoil penalty applies to the first burst fired in a Combat
Phase. Apply a penalty of +4 to the second burst fired in the same
Combat Phase.

Personal Note: As a person in the Law Enforcement field, I'd have
to say no cop in his right synapsis would use such a weapon as a
standard sidearm. Why? No single semi-automatic shots. JUST burst.
Great for clearing a room, but an officer in an "average" situation
using a gun needs more control than a burst fire could provide. As a
GM, my Lone Star guys carry a Predator or something similar. Leave the
Thunderbolt for SWAT-type situations.

Item 2:
As far as the legalities of post the stats. It's perfectly legal
since it's only a quoted portion of material (as if I were posting a
passage from someone's book). And more importantly, I'm not charging
you for the info.
FASA could sue, but they wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on.
Besides, they are good people, I'm sure they'd understand anyway.

Item 3:
After a long absence, I'm glad to be back.

-Damon Harper
"Tell me, and I forget. Show me, and I remember.
But let me do, and I understand."
-Confucious
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From:	"Hatchetman, GUV" <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt?????
Date:	Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:29:11 -0800

Message no. 14 > My samurai character (Mongoose) had one. (I got it off a physad SAS
agent
> I took out with a sock full of quarters- idiot tried to ambush me, and
> lost...)
> I immediately slapped a GV 2 on the t-hawk (no concealment loss). With
> his 9 STR, that meant no recoil. Re-reading the description, it struck
> me the Gas Vent was probably a bad idea. Seeing the effect, I think any
> sane GM would agree.
> Anyhow, I used it maybe twice. The SPAS has better range, for about the
> same conceal (???), and I like something that can shoot more than 4 times
> without loading (well, the net gun is damn cool, but its special) and is
> (more importantly) fairly easy to replace. I loose tazers like a kid
> looses mittens, cause once you use it, you almost always shift to
melee...

I am _so_ close to asking about the sock. But how often do you just drop
weapons? I had to read that a few times before I was sure I read it right,
cause I get very annoyed when I lose one of my guns. Not that it's a major
deal since I have so many, but I still don't like losing them.
The T-bolt is a kind of specialty weapon, I guess to give an edge to cops
against larger targets, or people in armor without giving them a (ahem)
real gun.

Hatchetman, GUV.

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt?????
Date:	Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:09:19 -0700

Message no. 15 For the mere cost of a Thaum, Scott W wrote:
/
/ If you're wondering about how to get it, that's
/ easy. Just pry it out from the cold, dead fingers of
/ a high ranking, SOTA equipped Lone Star officer. And
/ then prepare to fight the long arm of the law, chummer
/ >:)

Or, you can be as unfortunate as the runners in my game and have one
issued to you after you've been forced to go to work for Lone Star
<EGMG>

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt?????
Date:	Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:07:45 EST

Message no. 16 In a message dated 98-12-17 11:09:01 EST, you write:

>
> Or, you can be as unfortunate as the runners in my game and have one
> issued to you after you've been forced to go to work for Lone Star
> <EGMG>
>
> -David B.

Forced to work for the Star?? That sounds like something that should be in
the Humilations thread, David!!! C'mon, spill... Or did you already, in which
case should I be looking on the dumb things page?

--
Starrngr -- Now with an UPDATED webpage:
Ranger HQ
<A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/starrngr/index.htm">;
HTTP://hometown.aol.com/starrngr/index.htm</A>;

"You wear a Hawaiian shirt and bring your music on a RUN? No wonder they call
you Howling Mad..." -- Rabid the Pysad.

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt?????
Date:	Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:59:29 -0700

Message no. 17 For the mere cost of a Thaum, Micheal Feeney wrote:
/
/ > Or, you can be as unfortunate as the runners in my game and have one
/ > issued to you after you've been forced to go to work for Lone Star
/ > <EGMG>
/ >
/ > -David B.
/
/ Forced to work for the Star?? That sounds like something that should be in
/ the Humilations thread, David!!! C'mon, spill... Or did you already, in which
/ case should I be looking on the dumb things page?

It's not much of a story really. Because of political maneuvering
going on in the background of my campaign the PCs were targeted by a
major power. One of the other major powers involved wanted to keep the
PCs around as a playing card, and offered them a way out: to go to work
for Lone Star as "trouble shooters". The PCs took the job and moved to
Denver.

Recently the two powers were killed off by another major power and the
PCs have suddenly found themselves out of the loop of that power game.
They're still working for Lone Star until they're laid off in the near
future because of financial cutbacks.

I needed certain things to happen in my campaign story line, and I
wanted to run the group in Denver for awhile.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Mongoose <m0ng005e@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt?????
Date:	Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:09:51 -0600

Message no. 18 :I am _so_ close to asking about the sock.

We went to england. It was an improvised close combat weapon (sap); I
didn't have unarmed, so I had to improvise often.
It wasn't actually a sock, but the effect was the same, and that sounds
better...

:But how often do you just drop
:weapons?

Pretty often- voluntarily. Shoot, drop the gun, ready a melee weapon...

:I had to read that a few times before I was sure I read it right,
:cause I get very annoyed when I lose one of my guns. Not that it's a
major
:deal since I have so many, but I still don't like losing them.

<shrug> For that character, it was an acceptable loss. I possibke, He
would pick them up after the fight, while the rest of the group was
fianlly getting around to thier first action...

:The T-bolt is a kind of specialty weapon, I guess to give an edge to cops
:against larger targets, or people in armor without giving them a (ahem)
:real gun.

They really put the fear of cops into any-body NOT wearing heavy armor-
much better just to run away. I think that was the point of LS getting
them...

Mongoose

From:	"Hatchetman, GUV" <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt?????
Date:	Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:03:42 -0800

Message no. 19 > Pretty often- voluntarily. Shoot, drop the gun, ready a melee weapon...

Ah. I'm generally a LOT better with a gun, so even if my weapon runs dry, I
can draw backup #1, then backup #2. I generally have three or four guns.
Two pistols, sometimes one really heavy custom revolver, and then a shotgun
or once in a while a M23 or something.

> <shrug> For that character, it was an acceptable loss. I possibke, He
> would pick them up after the fight, while the rest of the group was
> fianlly getting around to thier first action...

Heh. Fast people. Most of my guns are a style thing. I would prefer to not
use just any gun I picked up unless I was _really_ strapped.

> They really put the fear of cops into any-body NOT wearing heavy armor-
> much better just to run away. I think that was the point of LS getting
> them...

Yup, that'd work too. Nobody wants to have the chance of being on the
recieving end of that little monster.

Hatchetman, GUV.

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt.
Date:	Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:15:21 -0500

Message no. 20 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:46 PM 12/16/98 -0800, Damon wrote:
> Personal Note: As a person in the Law Enforcement field, I'd
have
>to say no cop in his right synapsis would use such a weapon as a
>standard sidearm. Why? No single semi-automatic shots. JUST burst.
>Great for clearing a room, but an officer in an "average" situation
>using a gun needs more control than a burst fire could provide. As a
>GM, my Lone Star guys carry a Predator or something similar. Leave
the
>Thunderbolt for SWAT-type situations.

On the first burst, the gun is no harder to control than any other
Heavy Pistol.

If FASA was aproching it from the standpoint of: "If the Law
Enforcement Officer is in a situation where he's pulling the trigger
more than once in rapid succession, the situation has already gone to
hell," wouldn't the Thunderbolt make some sense in that context?

I seem to remember reading somewhere that some departments are
deliberately not giving their officers large-clip semi-automatic
pistols because they want the cops to fire only when they're sure they
can stop the suspect with one clean shot, and not go trigger happy in
an attempt to empty the clip. (Don't remember any details, so the
above might not be entirely accurate, but it seems to make sense.)

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

From:	Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt.
Date:	Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:53:03 EST

Message no. 21 In a message dated 12/17/98 5:25:08 PM Pacific Standard Time,
RunnerPaul@*****.COM writes:

> I seem to remember reading somewhere that some departments are
> deliberately not giving their officers large-clip semi-automatic
> pistols because they want the cops to fire only when they're sure they
> can stop the suspect with one clean shot, and not go trigger happy in
> an attempt to empty the clip. (Don't remember any details, so the
> above might not be entirely accurate, but it seems to make sense.)
A lot of talk and comparisons in the gun magazines right now about officers
that think just cause they got three 15 rounders that they don't have to aim
as much.
Makes some sense, though I think it may be more of a training issue than
limiting the rounds they can carry.
Back to SR though, for the Thunderbolt, if you only fire one burst each
"phase" the recoil would nto pass to the next. So what effects does all that
"punishing recoil" do? Maybe a L stun wound every time? :-)

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt.
Date:	Thu, 17 Dec 1998 21:17:49 -0500

Message no. 22 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:53 PM 12/17/98 -0500, you wrote:
> Back to SR though, for the Thunderbolt, if you only fire one burst
each
>"phase" the recoil would nto pass to the next. So what effects does
all that
>"punishing recoil" do? Maybe a L stun wound every time? :-)

As far as I can tell, that's up to GM whim, just like the recoil from
the PAC, and the recoil from that hold-out shotgun in NAGRL.

As a guideline, it should be about 3 times as painful (if not more) as
the recoil from a garden variety heavy pistol.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
In a press release yesterday, Microsoft announced that the official release
date of Windows 2000 has been pushed back to the second quarter of 1901.

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt.
Date:	Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:08:37 +0100

Message no. 23 According to Michael vanHulst, at 20:53 on 17 Dec 98, the word on
the street was...

> Back to SR though, for the Thunderbolt, if you only fire one burst each
> "phase" the recoil would nto pass to the next. So what effects does all
that
> "punishing recoil" do? Maybe a L stun wound every time? :-)

The Thunderbolt is a true BF pistol -- it can fire a burst per Simple
Action, not (like the Savalete Guardian from FoF) one burst in a Complex
Action. That means that the"punishing recoil" is applied to the second
burst fired in the same Combat Phase.

This means that you end up with less net recoil than for a normal pistol
capable of burst fire (say, an Ares Viper) -- those guns get +3 for the
first burst and +6 for the second; the Thunderbolt has +0 and +4
modifiers, respectively.

I use some house rules, though, that increase recoil for weapon not
properly braced, so firing a Thunderbolt one-handed is generally not a
wise move.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What do you mean, "let it"? How can you stop it?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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From:	Anders Swenson <anders@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt.
Date:	Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:31:47 -0800

Message no. 24 Gurth wrote:
...

The Thunderbolt is a true BF pistol -- it can fire a burst per Simple Action
...

> I use some house rules, though, that increase recoil for weapon not properly
> braced, so firing a Thunderbolt one-handed is generally not a wise move.

So how do you account for the two-handed firing stance in the SR rules? --Anders

From:	Ted Cabeen <secabeen@******.UCHICAGO.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt.
Date:	Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:56:27 -0600

Message no. 25 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In message <199812181009.LAA14145@*****.xs4all.nl>, Gurth writes:

>The Thunderbolt is a true BF pistol -- it can fire a burst per Simple
>Action, not (like the Savalete Guardian from FoF) one burst in a Complex
>Action. That means that the"punishing recoil" is applied to the second
>burst fired in the same Combat Phase.
>
>This means that you end up with less net recoil than for a normal pistol
>capable of burst fire (say, an Ares Viper) -- those guns get +3 for the
>first burst and +6 for the second; the Thunderbolt has +0 and +4
>modifiers, respectively.

And that's why the Thunderbolt is, as written, one of the twinkiest guns in
the game. I have a house rule that heavy pistols cannot fire bursts with
slugs. The Ares Viper fires flechettes, and the Thunderbolt is a Star gun,
so you have to steal one from a cop. (Good Luck) If you want a burst-firing
gun, either go with the machine pistol, or upgrade to a smg. Bursting with a
pistol is just a little too much for me. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a
legality rating for it in any of the books out now, but I'd put it as a
military grade weapon (class J) because of the high rate of fire.

- --
Ted Cabeen http://fnord.rh.uchicago.edu cabeen@******.com
Check Website or finger for PGP Public Key secabeen@******.uchicago.edu
"I have taken all knowledge to be my province." -F. Bacon cococabeen@***.com
"Human kind cannot bear very much reality."-T.S.Eliot 73126.626@**********.com

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From:	Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt.
Date:	Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:57:37 EST

Message no. 26 In a message dated 12/18/98 2:09:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, gurth@******.NL
writes:

> The Thunderbolt is a true BF pistol -- it can fire a burst per Simple
> Action, not (like the Savalete Guardian from FoF) one burst in a Complex
> Action. That means that the"punishing recoil" is applied to the second
> burst fired in the same Combat Phase.
my question was what if you only fire 1 burst each time, maybe using the other
simple action for something else. So the second burst never happens, and the
recoil fades away?
Applying it to the next initiative pass would seem to be kind of biased
against the TBolt.

From:	"Hatchetman, GUV" <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt.
Date:	Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:36:07 -0800

Message no. 27 > my question was what if you only fire 1 burst each time, maybe using the
other
> simple action for something else. So the second burst never happens, and
the
> recoil fades away?
> Applying it to the next initiative pass would seem to be kind of biased
> against the TBolt.

If you just fire once, the second action would have the recoil on it, and
unless you're shooting, it should have no effect. IMO. Just firing once is
a good idea unless you really need it.

Hatchetman, GUV.

From:	Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt.
Date:	Fri, 18 Dec 1998 23:01:38 -0500

Message no. 28 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:36 PM 12/18/98 -0800, you wrote:
>If you just fire once, the second action would have the recoil on it,
and
>unless you're shooting, it should have no effect. IMO. Just firing
once is
>a good idea unless you really need it.

That's the point behind the Thunderbolt, IMO. Even though that single
trigger pull pumps out 3 rounds, it's supposed to be pumping them out
so fast that you might as well treat it as a single bullet that does
_A_LOT_ more damage. Some people have expressed the opinion that the
gun is a bit munchy in that the recoil is a lot less than other BF
guns. However, if you look at it as a semi-auto pistol instead, that
just happens to do more damage, the second trigger pull of a
Thunderbolt has 4 times the recoil of the second trigger pull of any
other semi-auto pistol.

The following is a quote from one of Blackjack's SR columns, from a
conversation he had with a present day Philadelphia PD Officer:

"if you absolutely have to use your weapon, you�re gonna do your
damndest to get things right on the first shot. You can�t just haul
off and empty the clip of a 9mm in desperation, because every shot
that misses your target could possibly strike a bystander. And if a
situation ever arises during which you�d have to shoot somebody more
than once to bring them down, the drugs in your target�s system would
probably make they type of gun you�re firing a bit insignificant."

Of course, 205x-6x Lone Star Officers have a few more things to worry
about other than someone so strung out on drugs they don't drop when
they're shot, but the extra punch the Thunderbolt gives goes a long
way in helping cops get that First Shot Drop.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
In a press release yesterday, Microsoft announced that the official release
date of Windows 2000 has been pushed back to the second quarter of 1901.

From:	NightLife <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt.
Date:	Fri, 18 Dec 1998 23:42:53 -0500

Message no. 29 >And that's why the Thunderbolt is, as written, one of the twinkiest guns in
>the game. I have a house rule that heavy pistols cannot fire bursts with
>slugs. The Ares Viper fires flechettes, and the Thunderbolt is a Star gun,

I know it's gonna sound like a dumb question. But for the firearmed
challenged what's a "Star Gun"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

The GameMaster is always Right!
B.A. Felton from "Knights of the Dinner Table"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

From:	nocturnal@*******.NET
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt.
Date:	Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:51:53 -0600

Message no. 30 NightLife wrote:
>
> I know it's gonna sound like a dumb question. But for the firearmed
> challenged what's a "Star Gun"?

Star Gun: Firearm most always, only used by the Star, a.k.a. Lone Star.
(Bad people... always be nice to them and don't let on that you're
carrying a weapon, though they'll probably beat you for saying "Hello
Officer" anyway.)

Nocturnal

-- oh yeah... those virii are dead, so I'm back until I'm hit with
another.

From:	NightLife <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt.
Date:	Sat, 19 Dec 1998 00:12:16 -0500

Message no. 31 At 10:51 PM 12/18/98 -0600, you wrote:
>NightLife wrote:
>>
>> I know it's gonna sound like a dumb question. But for the firearmed
>> challenged what's a "Star Gun"?
>
>Star Gun: Firearm most always, only used by the Star, a.k.a. Lone Star.
>(Bad people... always be nice to them and don't let on that you're
>carrying a weapon, though they'll probably beat you for saying "Hello
>Officer" anyway.)

Thanks I thought I was some special firing mode or something else like that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

The GameMaster is always Right!
B.A. Felton from "Knights of the Dinner Table"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

From:	"Hatchetman, GUV" <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt.
Date:	Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:57:50 -0800

Message no. 32 > That's the point behind the Thunderbolt, IMO. Even though that single
> trigger pull pumps out 3 rounds, it's supposed to be pumping them out
> so fast that you might as well treat it as a single bullet that does
> _A_LOT_ more damage. Some people have expressed the opinion that the
> gun is a bit munchy in that the recoil is a lot less than other BF
> guns. However, if you look at it as a semi-auto pistol instead, that
> just happens to do more damage, the second trigger pull of a
> Thunderbolt has 4 times the recoil of the second trigger pull of any
> other semi-auto pistol.

Well, it can be munchy if you look at it wrong, but since it's burst only
for 12S, think of it like a 4 round shotgun. Not at all munchy then.

Hatchetman, GUV.

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt.
Date:	Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:27:24 +0100

Message no. 33 According to Michael vanHulst, at 19:57 on 18 Dec 98, the word on
the street was...

> my question was what if you only fire 1 burst each time, maybe using the other
> simple action for something else. So the second burst never happens, and the
> recoil fades away?

Then you don't get any recoil, no -- same as with any other BF-capable
weapon: if you fire one burst with an Ingram Smartgun, then use the other
Simple Action to change position, the recoil has no effect. I don't see
why the Thunderbolt should be any different.

--
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What do you mean, "let it"? How can you stop it?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt.
Date:	Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:27:25 +0100

Message no. 34 According to NightLife, at 23:42 on 18 Dec 98, the word on
the street was...

> >the Thunderbolt is a Star gun,
>
> I know it's gonna sound like a dumb question. But for the firearmed
> challenged what's a "Star Gun"?

My guess is it means a gun only used by Lone Star. (Which is true only
until mid-2055, after which time Ruger can sell them to others as well; I
would imagine it being classified as an automatic weapon (class G),
though, so it's not available to private citizens.)

--
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What do you mean, "let it"? How can you stop it?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt.
Date:	Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:27:24 +0100

Message no. 35 According to Anders Swenson, at 7:31 on 18 Dec 98, the word on
the street was...

> > I use some house rules, though, that increase recoil for weapon not properly
> > braced, so firing a Thunderbolt one-handed is generally not a wise move.
>
> So how do you account for the two-handed firing stance in the SR rules?

I acount for that by not increasing recoil; firing a pistol one-handed
multiplies recoil by 1.5 (rounded up). My full house rules are in
Shadowlad issue #6, and also in the Plastic Warriors book "The Player's
Guide to Shadowrun House Rules"
(http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/srbooks/tpgtshr.html).

--
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What do you mean, "let it"? How can you stop it?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt.
Date:	Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:27:24 +0100

Message no. 36 According to Ted Cabeen, at 12:56 on 18 Dec 98, the word on
the street was...

> And that's why the Thunderbolt is, as written, one of the twinkiest guns

Is "twinkiest" good or bad?

> in the game. I have a house rule that heavy pistols cannot fire bursts
> with slugs.

What is your reasoning behind this? It doesn't make much sense to me...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What do you mean, "let it"? How can you stop it?
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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From:	Scott W <see_scott_run@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt.
Date:	Sat, 19 Dec 1998 07:09:33 -0800

Message no. 37 > Well, it can be munchy if you look at it wrong, but
> since it's burst only for 12S, think of it like a 4
> round shotgun. Not at all munchy then.
> Hatchetman, GUV.

What's its concealability again? (I tried to find
the listserv archive, but I can't...maybe some kind
soul could boot my ass in its direction) 'Cause if
the Thunderbolt is more concealable than a shotgun,
its heading for munchkinism...

BTW, how easy is it to make an extended clip for a
weapon? That'd solve the Ruger T's ammo problem,
and make it a munchkin's white whale.

Scott
==

"If you can't win, don't join them;
learn how to lose."
-Walt Kelly

_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From:	"Hatchetman, GUV" <hatchet@*********.BC.CA>
Subject:	Re: Ruger Thunderbolt.
Date:	Sat, 19 Dec 1998 10:23:08 -0800

Message no. 38 > What's its concealability again? (I tried to find
> the listserv archive, but I can't...maybe some kind
> soul could boot my ass in its direction) 'Cause if
> the Thunderbolt is more concealable than a shotgun,
> its heading for munchkinism...

Nope, concealability 4. Freaking 4. That's a big pistol, you know? The
SPAS-22 has the same rating, and it's a little bigger than a Ruger Mini-14
I have with a folding stock. Now, when I find a pistol that's as hard to
conceal as that is, I'll be damned surprised.
>
> BTW, how easy is it to make an extended clip for a
> weapon? That'd solve the Ruger T's ammo problem,
> and make it a munchkin's white whale.

Not hard at all. Lowers the concealability if you've got it in the gun, but
any competent gunsmith, or even just a metalsmith can make one.

Hatchetman, GUV.

From:	Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject:	Ruger Thunderbolt
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:04:22 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 39 On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, IronRaven wrote:

> Stats wise, how is the Thunderbolt any different than a Savalette
> Gaurdian? Both heavy pistols, both burst capable.

The Savalette can only fire one burst, whereas a Thunderbolt can
fire two just like an SMG.

Marc

From:	runnerpaul@***.com runnerpaul@***.com
Subject:	Ruger Thunderbolt
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:41:42 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 40 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 03:04 PM 8/19/99 -0400, Marc Renouf wrote:
: The Savalette can only fire one burst, whereas a Thunderbolt can
:fire two just like an SMG.

Doh!

I had forgotten this in the post I just made.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #186 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
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From:	Jyster Cap jyster007@*****.com
Subject:	Ruger Thunderbolt
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:00:55 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 41 --- runnerpaul@*****.com wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> At 03:04 PM 8/19/99 -0400, Marc Renouf wrote:
> : The Savalette can only fire one burst, whereas a
> Thunderbolt can
> :fire two just like an SMG.
>
> Doh!
>
> I had forgotten this in the post I just made.

The Ruger has to fire in burst, the Guardian can
also fire in single shot.
__________________________________________________
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From:	Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject:	Ruger Thunderbolt
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:19:36 -0400

Message no. 42 At 03:04 PM 8/19/99 -0400, you wrote:

>On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, IronRaven wrote:
>
> > Stats wise, how is the Thunderbolt any different than a Savalette
> > Gaurdian? Both heavy pistols, both burst capable.
>
> The Savalette can only fire one burst, whereas a Thunderbolt can
>fire two just like an SMG.
>
>Marc

But, there are three big limiters on the Thunderbolt:

1) It burst fires, but the recoil is heinous.
2) It only holds 12 rounds, and since it ONLY fires burst, you're
effectively limited to 4 shots.
3) While it isn't illegal, it does make an unusual report. Remarked on in
New Seattle under the Lone Star section, anytime a cop hears a TBolt fired,
he's gonna be interested.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.

From:	Manx timburke@*******.com.au
Subject:	Ruger Thunderbolt
Date:	Fri, 20 Aug 1999 20:45:51 +1000

Message no. 43 >Compared to the Thunderbolt, the Guardian is more concealable, weighs
>more, has an easier Availability T#, a shorter Availability time, is
>100¥ cheaper, comes with integral smartgun, and has a lower street
>index. Plus, the Thunderbolt has a strong reputation as a cop gun,
>and will get some extra-special attention of Lone Star if you're
>packing it. The Thunderbolt has a very distinctive sound when it
>fires, immediately recognizable by anyone familiar with the weapon.

I think that the one thing that has been overlooked so far
is not that carrying a T-Bolt is going to get you attention
from cops, it's more likely to get you geeked by street
scum who see you carrying a gun that is the standard
issue for a cop.

Logic - He carries a cop's gun therefore he is a cop....
let's geek him before he arrests us for possession.
Alternatively - I don't want to be around this guy when
he gets busted with a cop's gun. I ain't going down
for accessory after the fact to a class A felony.

I think that there should be huge social modifiers
to any street etiquette tests where the NPC's know
that the character packs a T-Bolt and even greater
if the gun is in plain sight.

.....did anyone say 'hung out to dry' ?

____________________________________
Manx // timburke@*******.com.au // #950
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt
and then it's just hilarious." - Faith No More
____________________________________

________________________________________
Manx //// timburke@*******.com.au \\\\ #950
"Well it's a dirty job but someone's got to do it."
Faith No More - 'We Care a Lot'
________________________________________

From:	Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject:	Ruger Thunderbolt
Date:	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 23:04:32 +0100

Message no. 44 In article <4.2.0.58.19990819160543.00959d00@*****.engin.umich.edu>,
Sommers <sommers@*****.edu> writes
>3) While it isn't illegal, it does make an unusual report. Remarked on in
>New Seattle under the Lone Star section, anytime a cop hears a TBolt fired,
>he's gonna be interested.

Not to mention... even if you're _not_ a cop, a Thunderbolt is a "cop
gun". Someone spots your Predator, okay, you're packing, they may or
may not have a problem with that.

Someone sees your Thunderbolt... odds are you're a cop. They're _much_
more likely to have a problem with that.

--
Paul J. Adam

From:	lericson20@*****.net (lericson20@*****.net)
Subject:	Ruger Thunderbolt
Date:	Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:14:05 +0000

Message no. 45 ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment
To all you GMs:

Do Lone Star officers carry the Ruger Thunderbolt in your game? If so, do you use the gun
as written? Give its obvious superiority to the Savalette Guardian, what (if any measures)
to you take to prevent characters from simply geeking a cop and taking the gun for their
own?

I am thinking of having all Thunderbolts manufactured with the Biometric Recognition
addition so that only the issued officer can fire the gun as well as a AOD tracking device
for locating the weapon if stolen.

----
Lars Ericson
lericson20@*******.net
"A noble heart embiggens
the smallest man." -- Jebediah Springfield
---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment
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From:	tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject:	Ruger Thunderbolt
Date:	Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:32:25 -0400

Message no. 46 At 12:14 PM 10/22/2004, lericson20@*******.net wrote:
>Do Lone Star officers carry the Ruger Thunderbolt in your game? If so, do
>you use the gun as written? Give its obvious superiority to the Savalette
>Guardian, what (if any measures) to you take to prevent characters from
>simply geeking a cop and taking the gun for their own?

It has a fairly distinctive sound - if you fire one, everybody is going to
know its a cop gun, and there's a cop killer in the area. Cops hate cop
killers more than any other kind of criminal.

>I am thinking of having all Thunderbolts manufactured with the Biometric
>Recognition addition so that only the issued officer can fire the gun as
>well as a AOD tracking device for locating the weapon if stolen.

Not a bad idea, not a bad idea at all. I think I'll shoot you and take it
(the idea, that is, not the Thunderbolt). ;]

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman

From:	korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject:	Ruger Thunderbolt
Date:	Fri, 22 Oct 2004 09:41:31 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 47 --- lericson20@*******.net wrote:

> To all you GMs:
>
> Do Lone Star officers carry the Ruger Thunderbolt in your game? If
> so, do you use the gun as written? Give its obvious superiority to
> the Savalette Guardian, what (if any measures) to you take to
> prevent characters from simply geeking a cop and taking the gun for
> their own?
>
> I am thinking of having all Thunderbolts manufactured with the
> Biometric Recognition addition so that only the issued officer can
> fire the gun as well as a AOD tracking device for locating the
> weapon if stolen.

I run Thunderbolts as all having Biometric Safeties, and Smartlink
Safeties as well. All LS gear in my games is outfitted with tracking
devices, usually more than one. I also run Thunderbolts as having
two major design problems.

1: The recoil of this weapon is punishing in the extreme. Pulling
the trigger forces the use to resist 4L stun, as their wrist and
elbow take a pounding. Each successive burst without at least a full
combat Turn of rest between forces a roll at a cumulative +1 power.
E.g. Jane Copper fires her Thunderbolt at a ganger. She immediately
resists 4L stun. She loses sight of the ganger for two Turns. Then
he breaks into the open and she fires repeatedly... burst... burst...
burst... and has to resist 4L stun, then 5L stun, and then 6L stun...
by the third burst her arm is really feeling the vibration. Some
sort of wrist/forearm brace can ameliorate the recoil some, reducing
the power of the damage by 2 (2L + 1 per successive burst). The
brace negatively impacts manual dexterity with that hand, and actions
taken with it (except firing the gun) are one level more complex
(Free becomes Simple, Simple becomes Complex). The brace requires a
Complex Action to put on, and a Simple to remove.

2: After ever full clip discharged from the Thunderbolt, there is a
1-in-6 chance that the slide jams, making the weapon unusable until
full maintenance can be undertaken. The vibration induced into the
weapon by its unique firing mechanism is just too punishing.

My players all treat Thunderbolts like the guns are a carrier for
VITAS-IV. *grin*

======Korishinzo
--evil GM

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From:	me@******.net (Hexren)
Subject:	Ruger Thunderbolt
Date:	Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:49:13 +0200

Message no. 48 IH> 1: The recoil of this weapon is punishing in the extreme. Pulling
IH> the trigger forces the use to resist 4L stun, as their wrist and
IH> elbow take a pounding. Each successive burst without at least a full
IH> combat Turn of rest between forces a roll at a cumulative +1 power.
IH> E.g. Jane Copper fires her Thunderbolt at a ganger. She immediately
IH> resists 4L stun. She loses sight of the ganger for two Turns. Then
IH> he breaks into the open and she fires repeatedly... burst... burst...
IH> burst... and has to resist 4L stun, then 5L stun, and then 6L stun...
IH> by the third burst her arm is really feeling the vibration. Some
IH> sort of wrist/forearm brace can ameliorate the recoil some, reducing
IH> the power of the damage by 2 (2L + 1 per successive burst). The
IH> brace negatively impacts manual dexterity with that hand, and actions
IH> taken with it (except firing the gun) are one level more complex
IH> (Free becomes Simple, Simple becomes Complex). The brace requires a
IH> Complex Action to put on, and a Simple to remove.

IH> 2: After ever full clip discharged from the Thunderbolt, there is a
IH> 1-in-6 chance that the slide jams, making the weapon unusable until
IH> full maintenance can be undertaken. The vibration induced into the
IH> weapon by its unique firing mechanism is just too punishing.

IH> My players all treat Thunderbolts like the guns are a carrier for
IH> VITAS-IV. *grin*

---------------------------------------------

But why in the world shut a corp then use them, chance is in my
opinion that if the Weapons were that hard to use and error prone the
Corp would change them or officiers would on their on initiative use
other Weapons.

From:	tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject:	Ruger Thunderbolt
Date:	Fri, 22 Oct 2004 12:52:54 -0400

Message no. 49 At 12:41 PM 10/22/2004, Ice Heart wrote:
>I run Thunderbolts as all having Biometric Safeties, and Smartlink
>Safeties as well. All LS gear in my games is outfitted with tracking
>devices, usually more than one. I also run Thunderbolts as having
>two major design problems.
>
>1: The recoil of this weapon is punishing in the extreme. Pulling

[Snip!]

You are aware this goes /completely/ contrary to the long-form weapon
description from the Lone Star sourcebook, right? Even if it is SR2, the
flavor text is still valid (especially when the rules support it).

>2: After ever full clip discharged from the Thunderbolt, there is a
>1-in-6 chance that the slide jams, making the weapon unusable until
>full maintenance can be undertaken. The vibration induced into the
>weapon by its unique firing mechanism is just too punishing.

A weapon with that kind of failure rate would never leave testing. A corp
as large as Lone Star would never accept delivery on that garbage.

>My players all treat Thunderbolts like the guns are a carrier for
>VITAS-IV. *grin*

As they should, but you're giving them all the wrong reasons.

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman

From:	korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject:	Ruger Thunderbolt
Date:	Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:04:22 -0700 (PDT)

Message no. 50 > But why in the world shut a corp then use them, chance is in my
> opinion that if the Weapons were that hard to use and error prone
> the Corp would change them or officiers would on their on
initiative
> use other Weapons.

My take is as follows:

Ruger and LS have an exclusive contract. Ruger gets to mass produce
a cheap, distinctive weapon, more feared by reputation than actual
performance (there is historical precedent for this). LS buys the
gun at a bulk discount, requires their officers to use them, and
bills the officers for replacements at full (book) price. Everyone
profits but the grunt cops, and the street punks who think the guns
are such a prize. Most LS officers who survive for any length of
time on the streets invest in a second sidearm of preference,
favoring (in my games) the Colt Manhunter and the Hammerli
predominantly.

Let me ask you a counter question(s):

If the Ruger Thunderbolt had no flaws, why would anyone buy a
Savalette or a Predator (but especially a Savalette)? Why wouldn't
every heavy pistol emulate the feared, powerful (ridiculous) firing
mechanism of the Ruger?

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Message no. 51 >> But why in the world shut a corp then use them, chance is in my
>> opinion that if the Weapons were that hard to use and error prone
>> the Corp would change them or officiers would on their on
IH> initiative
>> use other Weapons.

IH> My take is as follows:

IH> Ruger and LS have an exclusive contract. Ruger gets to mass produce
IH> a cheap, distinctive weapon, more feared by reputation than actual
IH> performance (there is historical precedent for this). LS buys the
IH> gun at a bulk discount, requires their officers to use them, and
IH> bills the officers for replacements at full (book) price. Everyone
IH> profits but the grunt cops, and the street punks who think the guns
IH> are such a prize. Most LS officers who survive for any length of
IH> time on the streets invest in a second sidearm of preference,
IH> favoring (in my games) the Colt Manhunter and the Hammerli
IH> predominantly.

IH> Let me ask you a counter question(s):

IH> If the Ruger Thunderbolt had no flaws, why would anyone buy a
IH> Savalette or a Predator (but especially a Savalette)? Why wouldn't
IH> every heavy pistol emulate the feared, powerful (ridiculous) firing
IH> mechanism of the Ruger?

---------------------------------------------

If given the tables from the Books nobody would but thinks are not
that clear in Real Life :(
And then maybe the Weapon is illegal for anybody else than a law
enfocement officier to own. Which would put it out of hand for most of
the gun owners. (Not really everybody has the Black Market connections
of Runners) So that would be a reason for competition. btw: I do not
believe that anything that is such drasticly better would survife long
without beeing copied in some way.

Message no. 52 On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:04:22 -0700 (PDT), Ice Heart
<korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:
> > But why in the world shut a corp then use them, chance is in my
> > opinion that if the Weapons were that hard to use and error prone
> > the Corp would change them or officiers would on their on
> initiative
> > use other Weapons.
>
> My take is as follows:
>
> Ruger and LS have an exclusive contract. Ruger gets to mass produce
> a cheap, distinctive weapon, more feared by reputation than actual
> performance (there is historical precedent for this). LS buys the
> gun at a bulk discount, requires their officers to use them, and
> bills the officers for replacements at full (book) price. Everyone
> profits but the grunt cops, and the street punks who think the guns
> are such a prize. Most LS officers who survive for any length of
> time on the streets invest in a second sidearm of preference,
> favoring (in my games) the Colt Manhunter and the Hammerli
> predominantly.

Except: Workers Comp. Can you imagine the amount of money lost by LS
due to workers comp claims filed because the weapon they *have* to use
injures them on a regular basis? And, if a defective weapon
repeatedly fails in the course of action and cops die because of it,
that's a *huge* class action lawsuit, against both Ruger and LS.

> Let me ask you a counter question(s):
>
> If the Ruger Thunderbolt had no flaws, why would anyone buy a
> Savalette or a Predator (but especially a Savalette)? Why wouldn't
> every heavy pistol emulate the feared, powerful (ridiculous) firing
> mechanism of the Ruger?

Because as part of the deal Ruger isn't only not allowed to sell the
weapon to anyone else, but they aren't allowed to sell the rights to
use the patented firing mechanism.

Or, there's a law that classifies the Ruger, and any weapon like it,
as a "military" weapon that Joe citizen can't own. So Joe citizen
buys the next best thing (a Savalette or a Predator).

Easy neh? :)

--
-Graht

Message no. 53 > >1: The recoil of this weapon is punishing in the extreme. Pulling
>
> [Snip!]
>
> You are aware this goes /completely/ contrary to the long-form
> weapon
> description from the Lone Star sourcebook, right? Even if it is
> SR2, the
> flavor text is still valid (especially when the rules support it).

Actually, the Lone Star sourcebook specifically states in its flavor
text that the biggest drawback of the weapon is its punishing recoil.
:)

> >2: After ever full clip discharged from the Thunderbolt, there is
> a
> >1-in-6 chance that the slide jams, making the weapon unusable
> until
> >full maintenance can be undertaken. The vibration induced into
> the
> >weapon by its unique firing mechanism is just too punishing.
>
> A weapon with that kind of failure rate would never leave testing.
> A corp
> as large as Lone Star would never accept delivery on that garbage.

Ummm... the history of firearm manufacturing and corporate/government
mass purchasing both prove you very wrong. Very poor weapons have,
for various reasons, glutted the market for decades. Among the chief
reasons are cost to produce and exclusive contracts (with nice bulk
discounts).

> >My players all treat Thunderbolts like the guns are a carrier for
> >VITAS-IV. *grin*
>
> As they should, but you're giving them all the wrong reasons.

I disagree, as I said above. Furthermore, the social ramifications
of having one still apply. LS cops catch you with a Thunderbolt, you
are in a whole extra world of trouble. :)

======Korishinzo
--evil GM

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Message no. 54 On Oct 22, 2004, at 17:49, Hexren wrote:

> But why in the world shut a corp then use them, chance is in my
> opinion that if the Weapons were that hard to use and error prone the
> Corp would change them or officiers would on their on initiative use
> other Weapons.

Honestly, that's something I've always been wondering. Even without
Kori's house rules, if I was a cop there'd be no way I'd ever use a
Thunderbolt. The thing can't be silenced (okay, standard beat cops
aren't gonna be using silenced weapons anyway), its recoil will kill
your arm and ruin your aim for the next shot, and most importantly it
can only fire in bursts. Which has two consequences: first, it
tremendously increases the risk of collateral damage (and I have a
feeling that even in 2060 cops don't like to kill kids), and second, it
makes the gun a four-shooter (!).
Basically, the only thing the Thunderbolt has in its favor is its
damage code. Aside from that, you get all the disadvantages of a
revolver without any of the advantages, and then some more flaws. Yuck.
If I want a BF-capable heavy pistol, I'll go for the Guardian or the
VSG, thank you very much.
The real Shadowrun "cop gun", IMO, is the Colt Manhunter. Powerful,
versatile, reliable, with a decent ammo capacity and a laser sight
(most cops probably aren't Smartlinked).

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"

Message no. 55 On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:14:47 -0700 (PDT), Ice Heart
<korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:
>
> Furthermore, the social ramifications
> of having one still apply. LS cops catch you with a Thunderbolt, you
> are in a whole extra world of trouble. :)

Why? They've caught you with a weapon that they *know* is crap. If I
was a cop in your game and saw someone with a Ruger Thunderbolt, I
wouldn't do a thing about it. I would rather leave them armed with a
complete waste of a weapon than take it away from them and make them
replace it with something that might actually pose a threat.

--
-Graht

Message no. 56 Graht wrote:
>
> On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:14:47 -0700 (PDT), Ice Heart
> <korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:
> >
> > Furthermore, the social ramifications
> > of having one still apply. LS cops catch you with a
> Thunderbolt, you
> > are in a whole extra world of trouble. :)
>
> Why? They've caught you with a weapon that they *know* is
> crap. If I was a cop in your game and saw someone with a
> Ruger Thunderbolt, I wouldn't do a thing about it. I would
> rather leave them armed with a complete waste of a weapon
> than take it away from them and make them replace it with
> something that might actually pose a threat.
>

While I don't think I agree with you that the Thunderbolt is that bad of a
weapon, I think there are enough drawbacks to keep it from being used by
every Joe Ganger Wannabe out there. It's a Cop Gun, which means if you
aren't a cop, you shouldn't have one. As a cop, I'd for sure want to talk
with you if I saw or heard you with it. It may not be as good as some other
guns out there, and as someone mentioned before, that's a good reason for a
cop to carry a backup.

A thought just came to me, though. It has a unique sound, right? What if
there was a reason for that? In the heat of battle, you don't always have
time to call in reinforcements by using your radio. Perhaps the Thunderbolt
was given the unique sound as an additional way to call for help? Use some
rules akin to the ones for the ganger contact, but have 1d6 cops show up in
1d6 minutes or something. If I were a cop and heard it being fired, I'd
definitely go and investigate.

Zeb

http://www.spreadfirefox.com/community/?q¯filiates&id621&t=1

Message no. 57 --- Graht <graht1@*****.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:14:47 -0700 (PDT), Ice Heart
> <korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:
> >
> > Furthermore, the social ramifications
> > of having one still apply. LS cops catch you with a Thunderbolt,
> you
> > are in a whole extra world of trouble. :)
>
> Why? They've caught you with a weapon that they *know* is crap.
> If I
> was a cop in your game and saw someone with a Ruger Thunderbolt, I
> wouldn't do a thing about it. I would rather leave them armed with
> a
> complete waste of a weapon than take it away from them and make
> them
> replace it with something that might actually pose a threat.

Read: social ramifications

If you are not a cop, and you have a cop's gun, other cops get
twitchy. Natch.

And the Ruger is not a crap gun. It still has tremendous potention
to harm. It just has drawbacks. In play, btw, the average street
cop tends to see about an L stun (maybe 2) from using the Thunderbolt
in a protracted gun fight. This is no more than a slight ache in the
wrist, barely noticeable after the crash effects of Jazz, and the
overall exhaustion from running in Light Sec Armor. In play, I have
seen cop's guns jam I belive twice since I implemented the rule.
Most cops fire a few bursts, rarely a full clip. They then go back
to the precinct and clean the weapon.

Given the tremendous, potentially game-imbalancing power of the
weapon, these are small prices to pay. At the same time, players see
any drawbacks and freak, accomplishing my goal.

======Korishinzo
--evil GM

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Message no. 58 According to Ice Heart, on Friday 22 October 2004 19:04 the word on the
street was...

> If the Ruger Thunderbolt had no flaws, why would anyone buy a
> Savalette or a Predator (but especially a Savalette)? Why wouldn't
> every heavy pistol emulate the feared, powerful (ridiculous) firing
> mechanism of the Ruger?

Because IRL, what you buy does not depend solely on a handful of stats. If
that were true, everybody would buy the same vacuum cleaner simply because
it's the one with the highest wattage (about the only thing about vacuum
cleanrs you can easily put into something approaching a game stat), yet
there are dozens of vacuum cleaner manufacturers making dozens of models
of the things each. Which tells me there must be something else involved,
something that cannot be easily put into simple stats...

Same with guns: you buy a Guardian because you like the way it looks,
because it's easier to clean than a Thunderbolt, because the hammer is
easier to cock with one hand, because the safety is in a handier location,
because the bottom edge of the magazine doesn't break off, and so on.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Ik ben het beu
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 59 According to Hexren, on Friday 22 October 2004 19:12 the word on the street
was...

> If given the tables from the Books nobody would but thinks are not
> that clear in Real Life :(

Which, BTW, is why the Ultramodern Firearms sourcebook for Millennium's End
gave pictures of (nearly) all the weapons in it, and also tables with
stats that had no game impact whatsoever -- like whether the weapons could
be easily operated with the left hand, if it was a compact pistol or not,
whether it was double-action, and so on. (Not sure if the current d20
version of the book has similar tables, as I don't own it.)

> And then maybe the Weapon is illegal for anybody else than a law
> enfocement officier to own.

That problem is also there with all other BF-capable pistols. It's just
that the flavor text for the Thunderbolt played this up much more than was
done for similar weapons.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Ik ben het beu
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 60 On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 10:42:38 -0700 (PDT), Ice Heart
<korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:
>
> In play, btw, the average street
> cop tends to see about an L stun (maybe 2) from using the Thunderbolt
> in a protracted gun fight. This is no more than a slight ache in the
> wrist, barely noticeable after the crash effects of Jazz, and the
> overall exhaustion from running in Light Sec Armor.

But there's still the workman's comp issue. The Jazz is only used
during a firefight/tense situation. The armor only wears them out
when they're moving. But they have to stay proficient with the Ruger
which means they have to practice with it (probably at least once a
week, probably more). That's begging for a repetitive stress injury.
Do that to every cop on the street and that becomes an overwhelming
medical expense which cannot be balanced by any discount that LS might
get from the weapon.

And there isn't a corporation out there (operating in a reasonably
legal envinronment) that forces it's employees to endanger their
health needlessly due to the law suit factor. There are plenty of
weapons on the market which will serve the needs of a LS. If they
force their officers to use and qualify with the Ruger, they are
needlessly causing (possibly life-life long) injury to the majority of
their employees.

Please tell me how you justify LS's willingness to pay the medical
expense and suffer the legal ramifications of your house rule?

--
-Graht

Message no. 61 --- Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> According to Ice Heart, on Friday 22 October 2004 19:04 the word on
> the
> street was...
>
> > If the Ruger Thunderbolt had no flaws, why would anyone buy a
> > Savalette or a Predator (but especially a Savalette)? Why
> wouldn't
> > every heavy pistol emulate the feared, powerful (ridiculous)
> firing
> > mechanism of the Ruger?
>
> Because IRL, what you buy does not depend solely on a handful of
> stats. If
> that were true, everybody would buy the same vacuum cleaner simply
> because
> it's the one with the highest wattage (about the only thing about
> vacuum
> cleanrs you can easily put into something approaching a game stat),
> yet
> there are dozens of vacuum cleaner manufacturers making dozens of
> models
> of the things each. Which tells me there must be something else
> involved,
> something that cannot be easily put into simple stats...
>
> Same with guns: you buy a Guardian because you like the way it
> looks,
> because it's easier to clean than a Thunderbolt, because the hammer
> is
> easier to cock with one hand, because the safety is in a handier
> location,
> because the bottom edge of the magazine doesn't break off, and so
> on.

I'd agree with you whole heartedly if the Ruger Thunderbolt did not
already represent an abuse of game mechanics. It is a munchkin
weapon. It caters to players and GMs who want bigger bang bang for
relatively small drawbacks. The damage code of a Savalette, without
sacrificing an action? Drek yea! Oh, what? LS will be mad at me
and I can't silence it...? So what... bigger guns is better. Ignore
the fact that common sense says such a weapon should not exist.
Think of the econimic and social pressure such a weapon's existance
would create. Here is a weapon whose firepower vastly outstrips that
of any other weapon in its class. With no disadvantages. Lone Star
could have perhaps pressured Ruger not to sell the design for a few
years, but 5... 10... 15? No possible way. For one thing, Ares
would have bought Ruger straight out, and handed Thunderbolts to
every Knight Errant beat cop. I have always hated the Thunderbolt as
printed. You ~cannot~ tell me the game designers were so naive they
thought the weapon would be restricted to NPCs. Any more than combat
drugs, mp-lasers, or Steel Lynx drones would be solely used by NPCs.
If the toy is there, it will be used. So what is the Thunderbolt, if
not a munchkin toy? So I make the weapon undesireable to the average
runner. Instead of coming up with a flavor text description for why
the weapon is ~not~ in universal use, as you did, I come up with a
flavor text reason it is in use at all. :)

======Korishinzo
--evil GM

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Message no. 62 Graht wrote:
>
> But there's still the workman's comp issue. The Jazz is only
> used during a firefight/tense situation. The armor only
> wears them out when they're moving. But they have to stay
> proficient with the Ruger which means they have to practice
> with it (probably at least once a week, probably more).
> That's begging for a repetitive stress injury.
> Do that to every cop on the street and that becomes an
> overwhelming medical expense which cannot be balanced by any
> discount that LS might get from the weapon.
>
> And there isn't a corporation out there (operating in a
> reasonably legal envinronment) that forces it's employees to
> endanger their health needlessly due to the law suit factor.
> There are plenty of weapons on the market which will serve
> the needs of a LS. If they force their officers to use and
> qualify with the Ruger, they are needlessly causing (possibly
> life-life long) injury to the majority of their employees.
>
> Please tell me how you justify LS's willingness to pay the
> medical expense and suffer the legal ramifications of your house rule?
>

Lawsuits? A corporation is going to suffer to allow its employees to sue?
Come on, Graht, surely you jest! [:

I work in a call center, and am starting to develop carpal tunnel because
they won't give us natural (split) keyboards. Their justification is that
the workspace is "ergonomically-designed" with "ergonomic" chairs, and
so we
shouldn't have anything to complain about. When I asked for a split
keyboard, I was told I needed a doctor's note. When I went to get that, they
called HR to see if what I was saying was true, and the doctor was then told
about how ergonomic the workspace was and declined to give me the required
note.

A corporation can pretty much do as it pleases, moreso in Shadowrun where
it's just as easy to off the squeaky wheel and replace it with one that
won't complain as much.

Zeb

Message no. 63 > But there's still the workman's comp issue. The Jazz is only used
> during a firefight/tense situation. The armor only wears them out
> when they're moving. But they have to stay proficient with the
> Ruger
> which means they have to practice with it (probably at least once a
> week, probably more). That's begging for a repetitive stress
> injury.
> Do that to every cop on the street and that becomes an overwhelming
> medical expense which cannot be balanced by any discount that LS
> might
> get from the weapon.
>
> And there isn't a corporation out there (operating in a reasonably
> legal envinronment) that forces it's employees to endanger their
> health needlessly due to the law suit factor. There are plenty of
> weapons on the market which will serve the needs of a LS. If they
> force their officers to use and qualify with the Ruger, they are
> needlessly causing (possibly life-life long) injury to the majority
> of
> their employees.
>
> Please tell me how you justify LS's willingness to pay the medical
> expense and suffer the legal ramifications of your house rule?

The Ruger Thunderbolt is a blatant rip off of the firearm wielded by
Robocop in the movies. Continue the theme of a privatized law
enforcement corporation (OCP) for a moment. How is the
representation of corporations in Robocop different from the
representation of corporation in Shadowrun? They are, in fact, very
similarly presented. So, I justify it quite simply. Who represents
the workers comp claims? Where are they filed? What government
overwatch group actually has the power to force a settlement? Does
the corporate court actually care about tendonitis complaints from
the Beat Cop Union? No one, in fact, gives a drek about low rent
resources (I mean employees). "Here you go Trooper Davis, your
retirement gold chronograph and cyber-replacement wrist, courtesy of
the department." A cybernetic hand/wrist/elbow would probably set
the corporation back a realtively small amount. Like knee surgery in
pro sports today, it would be part of the cost of doing biz.
Athletes practice as hard as they play, and every year, teams lose
players to surgery before the season even starts. Presumably, the
cost-benefit ratio favors the corporation. Somewhere along the way,
we started arguing SR economics and ethics by today's standards. I
run SR as very distopian and dark. Corporate accountability is not
high up on the list of SR buzz-phrases in my game. Truth is, the
cops firing the Thunderbolt the most often don't make it to
retirement. Even today, police discharge their weapon mostly in
practice, not real confrontation. Remember my wrist brace? You can
bet that on the range, the LS boys and girls are wearing their braces
when they qualify.

======Korishinzo
--evil GM

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Message no. 64 According to Ice Heart, on Friday 22 October 2004 20:05 the word on the
street was...

> I'd agree with you whole heartedly if the Ruger Thunderbolt did not
> already represent an abuse of game mechanics.

I have different views on this, but I doubt typing them here would make you
see things my way, so I won't :)

> It is a munchkin weapon.
> It caters to players and GMs who want bigger bang bang for
> relatively small drawbacks. The damage code of a Savalette, without
> sacrificing an action? Drek yea! Oh, what? LS will be mad at me
> and I can't silence it...? So what... bigger guns is better.

Just use a full-auto weapon and you can do a lot worse than a Thunderbolt
will. Ingram Smartgun with EX explosive rounds, gas vent 4 plus the rest
of it, and a ten-round burst from a character with a reasonable but not
excessive SMG skill? Goodbye, target... (This happens just about every
time my group has a firefight.)

> Think of the econimic and social pressure such a weapon's existance
> would create. Here is a weapon whose firepower vastly outstrips that
> of any other weapon in its class. With no disadvantages.

Except that you're out of ammo in four shots, and that you'll probably
still be restricted to one burst per action because the recoil is going to
make you miss with your second burst in the same combat phase.

> You ~cannot~ tell me the game designers were so naive they
> thought the weapon would be restricted to NPCs.

That bit has me wondering, too, yes.

> Any more than combat
> drugs, mp-lasers, or Steel Lynx drones would be solely used by NPCs.

If you want to talk about overpowered, talk about armed and armored drones.
"The bad guy shoots at your drone with his HK-227." "It's got 3 points of
armor." "<censored>!!!" "I shoot back at him with the MMG."

Yes, you can take them out. But that generally requires someone who knows
the drones will be there, and so comes prepared for them. A typical
firefight with low- to medium-level opposition stands just about no chance
if you have a single rigger PC with a rotor drone with a gun on it.

> If the toy is there, it will be used. So what is the Thunderbolt, if
> not a munchkin toy? So I make the weapon undesireable to the average
> runner.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be undesirable -- the flavor text makes it out
to be basically desirable, but dangerous to own, which IMHO usually
translates to undesirable. However, I agree with others that your methods
to make it so are, shall we say, a bit extreme.

My players _never_ have problems with Lone Star, for the simple reason that
they try to avoid LS like the plague. Even the mention of sirens in the
distance is usually enough to get them packing up and leaving for
somewhere safer. And yet I honestly can't remember the last time I
actually used LS against the PCs in my group. All I've done is, over time,
made enough mention of the fact that Lone Star is an organization you
can't fight and win, that they've started to believe it :) The Thunderbolt
can be handled the same way, if you ask me.

> Instead of coming up with a flavor text description for why
> the weapon is ~not~ in universal use, as you did

As you asked us for...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Ik ben het beu
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Message no. 65 In article
<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAFHzcwjlaDEa6riM22/vaosKAA
AAQAAAAWbSgb1H+gEy9CJfqNui05gEAAAAA@*******.net>, zebulingod@*******.net
writes
>
>While I don't think I agree with you that the Thunderbolt is that bad of a
>weapon, I think there are enough drawbacks to keep it from being used by
>every Joe Ganger Wannabe out there. It's a Cop Gun, which means if you
>aren't a cop, you shouldn't have one. As a cop, I'd for sure want to talk
>with you if I saw or heard you with it. It may not be as good as some other
>guns out there, and as someone mentioned before, that's a good reason for a
>cop to carry a backup.

There's another point... it's a cop gun, and only cops carry it - damn!
Who let the undercover detective / off-duty officer in? Grab him!

And if his buddies walk in here bringing a cop along, no way are they
worth taking seriously...

--
Paul J. Adam

Message no. 66 In article <20041022180512.30923.qmail@********.mail.yahoo.com>, Ice
Heart <korishinzo@*****.com> writes
>I'd agree with you whole heartedly if the Ruger Thunderbolt did not
>already represent an abuse of game mechanics. It is a munchkin
>weapon. It caters to players and GMs who want bigger bang bang for
>relatively small drawbacks.

No, it's a pretty poor weapon, useful only for folk like police officers
who can usually only carry a pistol. If you're expecting a real fight,
bring a real gun.

It's good compared to other pistols, but it's going to get you killed
quickly against someone with an assault rifle who knows what they're
doing (they're at Medium range while you're helplessly cursing "Come
closer, you bastard!")

>The damage code of a Savalette, without
>sacrificing an action? Drek yea! Oh, what? LS will be mad at me
>and I can't silence it...? So what... bigger guns is better.

If that's your attitude, get an Ingram Smartgun and hide it in a
shoulder rig. More range, more ammunition, and full-auto capability. Or,
a SPAS-22... just as concealable, more firepower, longer range.

>Ignore
>the fact that common sense says such a weapon should not exist.
>Think of the econimic and social pressure such a weapon's existance
>would create. Here is a weapon whose firepower vastly outstrips that
>of any other weapon in its class.

For four shots, then you'd better have more rounds ready. Why are
full-auto or even burst-capable pistols rare, even though the concept's
well proven? They're hard to use compared to the benefits and are a
niche role.

>With no disadvantages.

Sweet Fanny Adams by way of magazine capacity, no silencer (significant
for shadowrunners), and it has unwanted associations.

>Lone Star
>could have perhaps pressured Ruger not to sell the design for a few
>years, but 5... 10... 15? No possible way.

How many Glock 18s can you find?

>If the toy is there, it will be used. So what is the Thunderbolt, if
>not a munchkin toy?

A powerful weapon for someone who doesn't expect to fire many shots and
isn't worried about noise or associations.

--
Paul J. Adam

Message no. 67 On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:14:05 +0000, lericson20@*******.net
<lericson20@*******.net> wrote:
>
> To all you GMs:
>
> Do Lone Star officers carry the Ruger Thunderbolt in your game? If so, do
> you use the gun as written? Give its obvious superiority to the Savalette
> Guardian, what (if any measures) to you take to prevent characters from
> simply geeking a cop and taking the gun for their own?
>
> I am thinking of having all Thunderbolts manufactured with the Biometric
> Recognition addition so that only the issued officer can fire the gun as
> well as a AOD tracking device for locating the weapon if stolen.
>
> ----
> Lars Ericson
> lericson20@*******.net
> "A noble heart embiggens
> the smallest man." -- Jebediah Springfield

I've adjusted the Thunderbolt to use Raygun's adjusted stats and
flavor text (http://matrix.dumpshock.com/raygun/firearms/pistol/rgr_tbolt.html).
I've also added Biometric Recognition and tracking on all official
Lone Star issued Thunderbolts, and crippled the ones released to the
public. Also, the distinctive sound will draw Lone Star like flies,
and any crime scene within Lone Star jurisdiction which shows
tell-tale indicators of a MetalStorm-equipped gun like the Thunderbolt
will be bumped up in priority.

My runners are well aware that if an A-rated corp or higher decides
that it's worth their bottom line to go all out on them, they're
toast. And with Lone Star, they're AA-rated, and their entire profit
line *is* tracking criminals like them down -- the more criminals they
bag, the more they can extort from -- err, bill -- the city
governments. So they do their utmost to stay off of Lone Star's
radar...

--
Dakhran the Dark

"We're only immortal for a limited time" -- Rush

Message no. 68 On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:11:15 -0700, Zebulin <zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:
> Graht wrote:
> >
> > But there's still the workman's comp issue. The Jazz is only
> > used during a firefight/tense situation. The armor only
> > wears them out when they're moving. But they have to stay
> > proficient with the Ruger which means they have to practice
> > with it (probably at least once a week, probably more).
> > That's begging for a repetitive stress injury.
> > Do that to every cop on the street and that becomes an
> > overwhelming medical expense which cannot be balanced by any
> > discount that LS might get from the weapon.

[snip: legal ramifications]

> Lawsuits? A corporation is going to suffer to allow its employees to sue?
> Come on, Graht, surely you jest! [:

[snip]

Okay... I could see that. But...

> I work in a call center, and am starting to develop carpal tunnel because
> they won't give us natural (split) keyboards. Their justification is that
> the workspace is "ergonomically-designed" with "ergonomic"
chairs, and so we
> shouldn't have anything to complain about. When I asked for a split
> keyboard, I was told I needed a doctor's note. When I went to get that, they
> called HR to see if what I was saying was true, and the doctor was then told
> about how ergonomic the workspace was and declined to give me the required
> note.
>
> A corporation can pretty much do as it pleases, moreso in Shadowrun where
> it's just as easy to off the squeaky wheel and replace it with one that
> won't complain as much.

One squeeky wheel, yes. But if the vast majority started suffering,
they would accomodate everyone. Even if the employees can't/won't
sue, there's still the issue of everyone calling in sick because
they're recovering from surgery to have their carpal tunnel fixed.
And this for an action that doesn't cause Stun damage every time you
use your keyboard.

If a Ruger Thunderbolt causes stun damage every time it's fired, then
it *will* cause actual physical damage if used continuously. And this
is to the cop's shooting hand. I've seen people go back to work
shortly after carpul tunnel surgery, but that's to use keyboards and
mice, not to fire a weapon that caused the damage in the first place.

LS issues the Ruger to it's officers, declaring that they are to use
it as their primary weapon (and subsequently they must be proficient
with it and qualify with it, so they have to train with it even if
they rely on their "backup" weapon on the street). After a little
while a few cops complain and get doctors notes, and HR gives them the
run around. Then more cops start complaining, and a few have to have
medical treatment (stress fractures actually do appear on their
x-rays, and there is definite tendon damage). Then the whole thing
hits critical mass and just about every cop that has been training
with this weapon starts filing medical claims because their wrists are
screwed up and they have to take time off for physical therapy.

LS wouldn't be able to let this one slide.

There are so many other and better ways to balance the Ruger than to
say that it does stun damage every time it is fired. Or at the very
least follow through with the ramifications and have LS in *your* game
discontinue use of the Ruger after 3-6 months and reassign Predators
to their police force.

--
-Graht

Message no. 69 On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:19:55 -0700 (PDT), Ice Heart
<korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:
> > Please tell me how you justify LS's willingness to pay the medical
> > expense and suffer the legal ramifications of your house rule?
>
> Continue the theme of a privatized law
> enforcement corporation (OCP) for a moment. How is the
> representation of corporations in Robocop different from the
> representation of corporation in Shadowrun? They are, in fact, very
> similarly presented.

> Does
> the corporate court actually care about tendonitis complaints from
> the Beat Cop Union? No one, in fact, gives a drek about low rent
> resources (I mean employees). "Here you go Trooper Davis, your
> retirement gold chronograph and cyber-replacement wrist, courtesy of
> the department." A cybernetic hand/wrist/elbow would probably set
> the corporation back a realtively small amount. Like knee surgery in
> pro sports today, it would be part of the cost of doing biz.

Except that a professional athlete is the absolute cream of the crop
in an industry with profits in the millions. It's worth the
investment to get him fixed up. It is *not* worth a few dollars saved
on getting a discount deal on the Ruger to spend several thousand
dollars to repair the damage it would do.

> I
> run SR as very distopian and dark. Corporate accountability is not
> high up on the list of SR buzz-phrases in my game.

That's fine, but they're goal is to make money. Having to pay for
medical costs associated with the Ruger is one less bean in their
coffer. Ditto if they choose to hire and train a new officer rather
than fix the damaged one.

> Even today, police discharge their weapon mostly in
> practice, not real confrontation. Remember my wrist brace? You can
> bet that on the range, the LS boys and girls are wearing their braces
> when they qualify.

Big mistake <evil player grin>.

I kill a cop. I take his Ruger. I go out and buy a wrist brace. Now
I don't have to worry about taking stun damage right?

Oh, no wait, the brace only helps the cop *reduce* the stun damage.

Well, then we're back to the issue of the Ruger causing real physical
damage to it's user over time, costing LS real money.

--
-Graht

Message no. 70 In article
<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAFHzcwjlaDEa6riM22/vaosKAA
AAQAAAAv+J8g09AzkOMaG8JPIIn1wEAAAAA@*******.net>, Zebulin
<zebulingod@*******.net> writes
>Lawsuits? A corporation is going to suffer to allow its employees to sue?
>Come on, Graht, surely you jest! [:

Trouble is, if this thing really damages officers' wrists, then either
police won't practice and so will miss with their four ubershots... or
they'll work for someone who doesn't cripple them with damaging weapons:
those that stay will be the ones too slow, dumb and stupid to get work
elsewhere.

This is not generally a good thing for an armed police force contracting
to other organisations, who *will* sue, invoke liquidated damages, or
just terminate contracts over mistakes.

>A corporation can pretty much do as it pleases, moreso in Shadowrun where
>it's just as easy to off the squeaky wheel and replace it with one that
>won't complain as much.

From a police point of view, it takes a couple of months to train a
replacement just to entry level, assuming they come in with a decent
standard of literacy and education to start with. Or you cut standards,
which means more accidents and incidents on the beat, meaning more
payouts and problems...

Corporations have a good hand but they have problems too, including a
hell of a lot of competitors trying to steal their business - or their
people. "Work for Lone Star and get crippled by your service pistol! Or
come to Wolverine, where we equip our most valued assets properly for
the task at hand! We offer full credit for your valuable enforcement
experience, and our lawyers are on call around the clock to ease the
transition to your new employer!"

--
Paul J. Adam

Message no. 71 So, what ever happened to the fact that the Ruger is
litterally:

1. a 4 shot pistol; extra clips and ammo can weigh a
person down.

2. cannot be silenced; critical in the shadowrunning
career, especially if you want to keep working.

3. has a very distinct sound; input Social Impact
here.

4. the first burst is unpenalized, yet, the second has
a +4 TN penalty; even with a smartlink that takes the
TN to a 6, apply Target Running (+2 TN for an 8) or
Partial Cover (+4 TN for a 10) and maybe you have to
switch targets (Look +2 TN more!).

This is an awful set of penalties in my book and all
for a high level of damage as its only benefit. Yet,
every chance I get, that is the first gun my Street
Sammie's get, followed by a Colt Manhunter and then a
Ruger Superwarhawk.

Dingo

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Message no. 72 Paul J. Adam wrote:

> There's another point... it's a cop gun, and only cops carry it - damn!
> Who let the undercover detective / off-duty officer in? Grab him!
>
> And if his buddies walk in here bringing a cop along, no way are they
> worth taking seriously...

Only cops carry it doesn't mean every cop carries it.

--
***
Nexx
aka Skaldmark
aka Mark Hall
***
http://www.editors-wastebasket.org/nexx/
***
"We have not even to risk the adventure alone, for the heroes of all
time have gone before us."
-Joseph Campbell

Message no. 73 Ice Heart wrote:

> 1: The recoil of this weapon is punishing in the extreme. Pulling
> the trigger forces the use to resist 4L stun, as their wrist and
> elbow take a pounding.

Do you shoot much? I can't claim to shoot a lot, but I've shot some,
and even quickly emptying (within SRs combat round) a .45 pistol, my
wrists don't feel a thing. They don't feel anything after 24 rounds,
either, even if they're all fired pretty quickly (within a minute or so).

Now, the Thunderbolt is another ball of wax, but I don't think 4L Stun
is going to happen with every shot, whether its throwing three bullets
or not. Heck, if it happens with a Thunderbolt, why doesn't it happen
with a Viper?

--
***
Nexx
aka Skaldmark
aka Mark Hall
***
http://www.editors-wastebasket.org/nexx/
***
"We have not even to risk the adventure alone, for the heroes of all
time have gone before us."
-Joseph Campbell

Message no. 74 Was it retcon'ed in a book I don't have that the LS/Ruger exclusive
contract didn't end in 2055? If not then this gun has been sold to the
public (under standard permit laws for BF weapons) for almost a
decade. Trying to claim it as a Lonestar, or Cop gun is kinda silly at
this point.

Of course, that doesn't detract from it's other downsides (namely lack
of ammo in an extended firefight).

Wyldwolf

Message no. 75 On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 02:38:42 -0500, Kevin Kelley <wyldwolf@*****.com> wrote:
> Was it retcon'ed in a book I don't have that the LS/Ruger exclusive
> contract didn't end in 2055? If not then this gun has been sold to the
> public (under standard permit laws for BF weapons) for almost a
> decade. Trying to claim it as a Lonestar, or Cop gun is kinda silly at
> this point.
>
> Of course, that doesn't detract from it's other downsides (namely lack
> of ammo in an extended firefight).
>
> Wyldwolf

Also, if GMs think it's too powerful for their games, why can't they
just say it doesn't exist there? That absolutely no one can have a
Thunderbolt because it doesn't exist on that particular campaign? I
think it's much better than having to come up with all sorts of rules
and setting restrictions, and having to worry about munchkin players
trying to sneak a Thunderbolt past the GM's watchful eyes.

--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com

Message no. 76 I agree that the Thunderbolt seems overpowerful. You raise some good
points, but I'll address them.

> So, what ever happened to the fact that the Ruger is
> litterally:
>
> 1. a 4 shot pistol; extra clips and ammo can weigh a
> person down.

Most firefights don't last more than a couple of rounds. Four shots is
still a disadvantage, but if the perp is dead not as big or a problem. I
agree from a practical point of view though that is is a big failing.

> 2. cannot be silenced; critical in the shadowrunning
> career, especially if you want to keep working.

And I'm sure all firefights are silenced. Most shadowrunners carry a
silenced weapon and a tricked out heavy combat weapon. Carry a silenced
SMG and the Thunderbolt is an excellent drek-hits-the-fan backup.

> 3. has a very distinct sound; input Social Impact
> here.

Not that big of a disadvantage, but it is one. Lone Star will
investigate those shots more quickly and citizens may report that more
readily.

> 4. the first burst is unpenalized, yet, the second has
> a +4 TN penalty; even with a smartlink that takes the
> TN to a 6, apply Target Running (+2 TN for an 8) or
> Partial Cover (+4 TN for a 10) and maybe you have to
> switch targets (Look +2 TN more!).

The big thing about the thunderbolt is that it is a Simple Action to
shoot a burst as opposed to a Complex Action for the Savalette Guardian.
The extra recoil will deter most from shooting two bursts, but that just
means they are going to use a Simple Action to aim followed by a 12S
unrecoiled burst. Very Nasty. That extra Power (two more than SMG, one
more than Assault Rifles) is a BIG thing. Now most "civilian" body armor
is saving against a 6 at best, plus it can hurst Force 4 spirits.

Now admittedly, one can make an even better Heavy Pistol using the
Cannon Companion. I sat down and tried to recreate the Thunderbolt and
got te following:

Heavy Pistol Frame
Burst Fire (remove Single Action)
Internal Recoil Comp 1
Extended Clip +2 bullets
Gas-vent II
Heavy Barrel
Weight Reduction Lvl 6
Improved FCU Lvl 4

Stats:
Dmg: 9M
Mode: BF
Con: 4
Weight: 2.75
Ammo: 12(c)
FCU: 0.5 left (for Smartlink or Laser Sight)
DPV: 474
Cost: 2370nY

Now, the cost is high, but so are all guns using these rules. They are
supposed to reflect a gunsmith custom making a gun not mass produced
guns. In on of the Shadowrun Supplements online there was an article
about realistic gun costs and there was around a 0.5 multiplier for
Heavy Pistols which would bring it down to around the listed price of
the thunderbolt.

However, the gun is actually better than the Thunderbolt listed. It
shoots Burst Fire normally and has 4 points recoil comp.

Message no. 77 > -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Hall
>
> Do you shoot much? I can't claim to shoot a lot, but I've shot
some,
> and even quickly emptying (within SRs combat round) a .45 pistol, my

> wrists don't feel a thing.

Having never seen the stats for a Thunderbolt (I'm having to deduce
them from this thread), I can't really speak much towards it.
However, I can tell you that if you rapidly fire a full clip off out
of a .50 cal semiauto, unless you have wrists of steel, you're gonna
feel it. Especially if you're trying to fire it one-handed. Perhaps
the rounds of the Thunderbolt are of a comperable size.

As to the Viper, it's firing little hypervelocity darts, it shouldn't
be nearly as punishing.

Joe Cotton

Message no. 78 >> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mark Hall
>>
>> Do you shoot much? I can't claim to shoot a lot, but I've shot
> some,
>> and even quickly emptying (within SRs combat round) a .45 pistol, my
>
>> wrists don't feel a thing.
>
> Having never seen the stats for a Thunderbolt (I'm having to deduce
> them from this thread), I can't really speak much towards it.
> However, I can tell you that if you rapidly fire a full clip off out
> of a .50 cal semiauto, unless you have wrists of steel, you're gonna
> feel it.

That's a debatable point, I can take a Desert Eagle .50 ACP and unload it's
rather small magazine one shot after the other, as fast as I can, and
holding it fairly loosely not be hurt, BUT if I try to muscle it for control
and accuracy, I won't be able to fire another clip for a couple
minutes...taking a .44mag version of the DE, I can unload full stacks dead
on as fast as I can for as long as you feed me ammo though, and all in all,
that just goes to say that it's all in a matter of how firmly you're trying
to control it, if you tried to muscle the gun to get all 3 rounds in a shot
group the size of a quarter, yes you'll have problems, but if you're
shooting center mass, you don't need to, just point and click, and let the
gun draw a small line up their body

Message no. 79 On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 10:46:22 -0500, Derek Hyde <d_hyde@***.com> wrote:
>
> That's a debatable point, I can take a Desert Eagle .50 ACP and unload it's
> rather small magazine one shot after the other, as fast as I can, and
> holding it fairly loosely not be hurt, BUT if I try to muscle it for control
> and accuracy, I won't be able to fire another clip for a couple
> minutes...taking a .44mag version of the DE, I can unload full stacks dead
> on as fast as I can for as long as you feed me ammo though, and all in all,
> that just goes to say that it's all in a matter of how firmly you're trying
> to control it, if you tried to muscle the gun to get all 3 rounds in a shot
> group the size of a quarter, yes you'll have problems, but if you're
> shooting center mass, you don't need to, just point and click, and let the
> gun draw a small line up their body
>
>

Just to put the math out there here are the "general" conversions
we're working with.

.357 Inches equals 9.0678 Millimeters
.44 Inches equals 11.176 Millimeters
.50 Inches equals 12.7 Millimeters

10 Millimeters equals 0.393701 Inches

I included the 10mm since that is the std heavy pistol caliber in SR
(though a few, like the superwarhawk are 11mm I believe). That puts
the thunderbolt roughly between a .38 and a .40. While both of these
are very capable rounds, neither is the "tank" of a .50AE or .44 Mag.
Personally my last sammie used a custom pistol that fired .454 casual
rounds.

Also, I do realize that powder load, and round type (hollow point,
solid, 'talon', APDS, etc...) will matter as much as the raw size of
the round - but unless someone wants to put together rules for
hotshotting bullets we have to go with the "standard" (ie heavy
pistols (10mm) do 9M dmg, etc...)

Wyldwolf
--
6 gmail invites currently available. Email to get one (first come, first serve).

Message no. 80 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul J. Adam" <ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk>
To: <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: Ruger Thunderbolt

> There's another point... it's a cop gun, and only cops carry it - damn!
> Who let the undercover detective / off-duty officer in? Grab him!
>
> And if his buddies walk in here bringing a cop along, no way are they
> worth taking seriously...

It's been years, IMHO it is no longer just a cop weapon.
--Anders

Message no. 81 On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 18:19:56 -0700, Anders Swenson
<anders@**********.com> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul J. Adam" <ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk>
> To: <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 11:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Ruger Thunderbolt
>
> It's been years, IMHO it is no longer just a cop weapon.
> --Anders

I agree.

A quick burst firing pistol is not enough to concern me when my
players constantly try to get their fixers to get them Anti-Tank
weapons.

GMs should modify these conditions with smarter enemies.. Enemies like
to use range, cover, and tactics. As stated previously in this
thread, the pistol is worthless past 50 meters (and realistic more
like 20 meters, unless Smartlinked).

If your adventure is low level, then sure bring your pistol to a fight
with a group of mean gangers... Like to see you take out 20 gangers
with only 4 shots per clip. Especially when the gangers are diving
for cover, throwing molitov coctails, etc...

If your adventure is mid level, then the sec corps/bodyguards, etc.
should be packing SMGs or Carbines which will quickly outpace that
pistol.

I don't mind my gamers to be well armed and able to defend themselves;
as I always have smart enemies that do not go down easily.

Personally I think the Ruger is over-hyped compared to the "slivergun"
which in my opinion is a much more -munchkin- pistol.. though I still
allow it in my games.

The Thunderbolt does have a distinctive sound.. so yeah, if someone
hears the sound it is not a difficult perception test to "detect a cop
gun firing." A concerned citizen would probably pull a panic-button,
and cops would investigate. However, a skilled gunsmith could make a
suppressor for the weapon (would have to be custom, and bulky).

As to the origional poster.. Yes the gun exists in my game, and it is
basically a cop weapon since it was never mass-marketed and at least
in Seattle is not for sale leagally. Cops are not required to use it,
and most cops in my game use non-lethal weapons as their primary
weapons (but that is a whole other thread).

Mightyflapjack
"You can get more gamers to behave with a gun and a kind word then you
can with just a kind word."

Message no. 82 >-----Original Message-----
>From: Ice Heart
>Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 9:04 AM
>
>[snip]
>Let me ask you a counter question(s):
>
>If the Ruger Thunderbolt had no flaws, why would anyone buy a
>Savalette or a Predator (but especially a Savalette)? Why
>wouldn't every heavy pistol emulate the feared, powerful
>(ridiculous) firing mechanism of the Ruger?

In my campaign this gun is not for sale on market (except black) and is
basic book rare (as listed avail.)

Yet my players treat it as "not worth it".

I simply apply common modern street logic. Anyone carrying a high profile
contraband (gun or no) is asking for trouble, doesn't matter where it comes
from i.e. LS, another runner, or some street punk. For me and my players
carrying a HMG is just as dangerous. Either keep it under wraps and use it
exclusively or be prepared to deal with the having deal with some new found
popularity on both sides of the law.

Those that use such weapons are either very stupid or very dangerous, as I
think they should be. Social Engineering is always more effective for
controlling "stuff".

- Failhelm

Message no. 83 >-----Original Message-----
>From: Ice Heart
>Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 9:43 AM
> [snip]
>
>Given the tremendous, potentially game-imbalancing power of
>the weapon, these are small prices to pay. At the same time,
>players see any drawbacks and freak, accomplishing my goal.

This string might need to be changed to "Intimidated GMs"

Not meaning to be snide, but seriously sounds to me like your afraid of your
players.

They can have a tank, foci, panther cannons, or even a big hand gun (see
above :-)
SR provides for a bigger fish in the sea and SR is really good about this,
as there is always a bigger fish in the sea. Perhaps your just worried that
your players might become real big fish.

I exert great care to tend to my players fairly and within the realm of the
game. Real life has all the examples that we need for what happens to such
folks. If you think that some handgun is so dangerous to your campaign - get
rid of it-.

You might as well be suggesting that if I own a big hand gun in real life
that is reserved for military or police that I'm unbalancing real-life......

- Failhelm

Message no. 84 </lurk>
Ice Heart <korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:

>--- Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
>>>If the Ruger Thunderbolt had no flaws, why would anyone buy a
>>>Savalette or a Predator (but especially a Savalette)? Why
>>>wouldn't every heavy pistol emulate the feared, powerful
>>>(ridiculous) firing mechanism of the Ruger?
> I'd agree with you whole heartedly if the Ruger Thunderbolt did not
> already represent an abuse of game mechanics. It is a munchkin
> weapon. It caters to players and GMs who want bigger bang bang for
> Korishinzo
> --evil GM

I've always seen the Thunderbolt as a munchkin weapon myself. I suppose
it's not quite real ultimate power in game terms, but the simple action
burst is damn handy in a pistol format, and it is (arguably) the best
heavy pistol going. The problem I have, is how come no Shadowrunners
working for Savalette or Colt (or Ares, or *anybody*) havn't captured
some design specs or an actual weapon so that Ruger's competitors can
reverse engineer it and build something pretty much similar? Are they
afraid of patent lawyers?

It's the artificiality with which this weapons uniqueness is maintained.
"It's a cop weapon", "it sounds different", all smacks of
irrationality to me. Either the Thunderbolt shouldn't exist, or there
should be competitors on the market by now. I do believe someone else
mentioned the limited exclusivity contract Lonestar had with Ruger.
Since this sidearm came out in Fields of Fire, hasn't it expired? Ah
well, I guess it doesn't matter much, since by the time the Star shows
up, it's already too late, no matter what sidearm they're packing.

Just my two bits.
-Tev

<lurk>

Message no. 85 ----- Original Message -----
From: Tevel Drinkwater <tevel@******.com>
Date: Sunday, October 24, 2004 1:57 am
Subject: Re: Ruger Thunderbolt

> Since this sidearm came out in Fields of Fire, hasn't it expired?
> Ah
> well, I guess it doesn't matter much, since by the time the Star
> shows
> up, it's already too late, no matter what sidearm they're packing.

Nitpick: It came out in the Lone Star Sourcebook, actually. I dun remember what page
number though.

John

Message no. 86 According to Kevin Kelley, on Saturday 23 October 2004 09:38 the word on
the street was...

> Was it retcon'ed in a book I don't have that the LS/Ruger exclusive
> contract didn't end in 2055?

That's mentioned in the Lone Star sourcebook, yes. *checks* Page 116 says
that for one year starting from 6-6-2054, Ruger produced them exclusively
for Lone Star; after 6-6-2055, the gun came onto the open market.

> If not then this gun has been sold to the
> public (under standard permit laws for BF weapons) for almost a
> decade. Trying to claim it as a Lonestar, or Cop gun is kinda silly at
> this point.

I couldn't agree more. This is about 8-9 years ago in any SR campaign set
at more or less the current moment of the SR timeline.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Ik ben het beu
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 87 According to Joseph Cotton, on Saturday 23 October 2004 15:16 the word on
the street was...

> Having never seen the stats for a Thunderbolt (I'm having to deduce
> them from this thread), I can't really speak much towards it.

It's basically just a heavy pistol (9M damage) that has 12 rounds in a clip
and fires only bursts, with the first burst suffering no recoil and the
second one a +4 modifier. Available with either smartlink-1 or laser
sight.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Ik ben het beu
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 88 Graht wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:19:55 -0700 (PDT), Ice Heart
> <korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:

>>Even today, police discharge their weapon mostly in
>>practice, not real confrontation. Remember my wrist brace? You can
>>bet that on the range, the LS boys and girls are wearing their braces
>>when they qualify.
>
>
> Big mistake <evil player grin>.
>
> I kill a cop. I take his Ruger. I go out and buy a wrist brace. Now
> I don't have to worry about taking stun damage right?
>
> Oh, no wait, the brace only helps the cop *reduce* the stun damage.
>
> Well, then we're back to the issue of the Ruger causing real physical
> damage to it's user over time, costing LS real money.

Possible explanation: wrist braces are straped up really tight, which
makes you slower than without because the movability of your arm is
restricted. At shooting range it doesn't matter if you now need 6 secs
to aim instead of 1, in real combat this will kill you. Just say wrist
braces give youz a TN+3, which is negated by 4.5 secs of aiming and you
are clear of problems.

--
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Contact:
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Message no. 89 I've always considered the T-Bolt to work the same way the G-11 was
designed to, which is one burst fired at an incredibly high ROF in order to
get the bullets out before the recoil impulse has the chance to effect the
aim point of the weapon.

Message no. 90 On Oct 24, 2004, at 14:58, Nightwinder wrote:

> I've always considered the T-Bolt to work the same way the G-11 was
> designed to, which is one burst fired at an incredibly high ROF in
> order to get the bullets out before the recoil impulse has the chance
> to effect the aim point of the weapon.

And from what I've read, you are right.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"

Message no. 91 Michael Schmidt wrote:
>
> Possible explanation: wrist braces are straped up really
> tight, which makes you slower than without because the
> movability of your arm is restricted. At shooting range it
> doesn't matter if you now need 6 secs to aim instead of 1, in
> real combat this will kill you. Just say wrist braces give
> youz a TN+3, which is negated by 4.5 secs of aiming and you
> are clear of problems.
>

I don't understand why people are trying to add something to the pistol to
make it more likely to not hit. I thought that was already accomplished by
the standard recoil modifiers given for bursts. Yes, it does recoil more
than normal, and that's because it fires more than normal. The second burst
is gonna have more recoil, and that's already factored in.

People have jumped off on trying to make the recoil something to be feared,
but there's already a game mechanic for it.

Zebulin

Message no. 92 --- Mark Hall <mrnexx@*********.net> wrote:

> Ice Heart wrote:
>
> > 1: The recoil of this weapon is punishing in the extreme.
> Pulling
> > the trigger forces the use to resist 4L stun, as their wrist and
> > elbow take a pounding.
>
> Do you shoot much? I can't claim to shoot a lot, but I've shot
> some,
> and even quickly emptying (within SRs combat round) a .45 pistol,
> my
> wrists don't feel a thing. They don't feel anything after 24
> rounds,
> either, even if they're all fired pretty quickly (within a minute
> or so).
>
> Now, the Thunderbolt is another ball of wax, but I don't think 4L
> Stun
> is going to happen with every shot, whether its throwing three
> bullets
> or not. Heck, if it happens with a Thunderbolt, why doesn't it
> happen
> with a Viper?

Ummm... the Viper has an electric firing mechanism, and hurls ceramic
darts shaved off a disk spinning in the ammo compartment. The weapon
should have virtually zero recoil, although I would bet the
gyroscopic force of the spinning disk has to be compensated somehow.
There is no propellant burning off, or hot gas expanding at ballistic
speeds to deal with.

As to the rest, I have not fired very many pistol-class weapons.
However, I recall very clearly the body-shock and cumulative
discomfort of firing a .303 rifle. What else is that shock and
possible bruising than Stun damage??? Please note that a person with
average body who takes a break between shots will not suffer any
stun. They risk it, especially if they fire repeatedly, but damage
risked is not damage taken.

It is a game mechanic, and hence plays by certain mathematical rules.
My rule is the dice/mechanics equivalent of the shadowtalk sidebar
in the Lone Star Sourcebook, to wit:

"...At 20 meters, all three rounds cluster right in the X-ring,
totally unaffected by recoil - which was absolutely punishing. After
firing off a full clip, I felt like my hands had been stomped on by a
troll in combat boots."

The shadowtalk goes on to suggest that a lot of LS cops were hesitant
to give up their tried and true Manhunters. In my games, the
Thunderbolt is more popular with cops who are already augmented in
some way. Many cops still carry and prefer their Manhunters. My
house rule on Thunderbolts is one of my ways of explaining this
preference.

======Korishinzo
--evil GM

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Message no. 93 > Personally I think the Ruger is over-hyped compared to the
> "slivergun"
> which in my opinion is a much more -munchkin- pistol.. though I
> still
> allow it in my games.

The Ares Viper "Slivergun" is easy enough to handle. It is in
permanent flechette mode, and cannot load any alternte ammo. Hence,
armor of any sort tends to radically reduce the effectiveness of the
weapon. How many unarmored foes do your PCs face?

======Korishinzo
--would prefer players with Vipers to Thunderbolts any day

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Message no. 94 --- failhelm@*****.com wrote:

> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Ice Heart
> >Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 9:43 AM
> > [snip]
> >
> >Given the tremendous, potentially game-imbalancing power of
> >the weapon, these are small prices to pay. At the same time,
> >players see any drawbacks and freak, accomplishing my goal.
>
> This string might need to be changed to "Intimidated GMs"
>
> Not meaning to be snide, but seriously sounds to me like your
> afraid of your players.

LOL...

> They can have a tank, foci, panther cannons, or even a big hand gun
> (see above :-)
> SR provides for a bigger fish in the sea and SR is really good
> about this,
> as there is always a bigger fish in the sea. Perhaps your just
> worried that
> your players might become real big fish.

No. I am annoyed by the Ruger Thunderbolt. I think it is was
created without a lot of thought. PCs becoming "big fish" may
happen, but if it happens at the start of a game, with the purchase
of a piece of equipment, they will be dead fish very quickly. Big
fish are big because of many factors, chief among them being
experience. Wet-behind-the-ears starting runners who jump into a big
pond because they have big guns make for short games. The bottom
line is, there will always be players who look only at the stats of a
weapon, consider only the mechanical pros and cons. By making the
mechanical cons more equal to the mechanical pros (IMO), I find the
playing field more balanced. Players still use the Thunderbolt in my
games, albeit rarely. They do so knowing that a more expensive, or
less powerful, sidearm might be a better option.

> I exert great care to tend to my players fairly and within the
> realm of the
> game. Real life has all the examples that we need for what happens
> to such
> folks. If you think that some handgun is so dangerous to your
> campaign - get
> rid of it-.

Nah. Every once and a while, some cops end up cornered, and decide
that big pistols are worth a sore wrist. Especially when the Jazz
kicks in. :>

> You might as well be suggesting that if I own a big hand gun in
> real life
> that is reserved for military or police that I'm unbalancing
> real-life......

Well... aren't you? ;)

======Korishinzo
--Afraid of my players? Thank you. Laughter is so fun. :p

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Message no. 95 None, ever. Everyone has armor.

Ice Heart wrote:

> How many unarmored foes do your PCs face?
>
>======>Korishinzo
>--would prefer players with Vipers to Thunderbolts any day
>
>
>
>__________________________________
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>Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
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>
>
>
>

Message no. 96 At 06:47 PM 10/24/2004, Ice Heart wrote:
>The Ares Viper "Slivergun" is easy enough to handle. It is in
>permanent flechette mode, and cannot load any alternte ammo. Hence,
>armor of any sort tends to radically reduce the effectiveness of the
>weapon. How many unarmored foes do your PCs face?

Not many... but very few of them wear helmets.

Smartlink II... Called Shot to the face... Ares Viper...

Hamburger, anyone?

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman

Message no. 97 > --- Mark Hall <mrnexx@*********.net> wrote:
>
> > Ice Heart wrote:
> >
> > > 1: The recoil of this weapon is punishing in the extreme.
> > Pulling
> > > the trigger forces the use to resist 4L stun, as their wrist and
> > > elbow take a pounding.
> >
> > Do you shoot much? I can't claim to shoot a lot, but I've shot
> > some,
> > and even quickly emptying (within SRs combat round) a .45 pistol,
> > my
> > wrists don't feel a thing. They don't feel anything after 24
> > rounds,
> > either, even if they're all fired pretty quickly (within a minute
> > or so).

For the record I have shot a .357 magnum desert eagle... the recoil
didn't hurt my arms or wrists in the slightest. I missed the earlier
posts so I missed out on what the original beef with the thunderbolt is
but I don't see anything wrong with it. If gm's have a problem with
pc's using thunderbolts have lonstar crack down on them as non law
enforcement people don't need hand guns that fire only 3 shot bursts ;)

My 2 cents

Aethelwulf

Message no. 98 >
> At 06:47 PM 10/24/2004, Ice Heart wrote:
> >The Ares Viper "Slivergun" is easy enough to handle. It is in
> >permanent flechette mode, and cannot load any alternte ammo. Hence,
> >armor of any sort tends to radically reduce the effectiveness of the
> >weapon. How many unarmored foes do your PCs face?
>
> Not many... but very few of them wear helmets.
>
> Smartlink II... Called Shot to the face... Ares Viper...
>
> Hamburger, anyone?
>
> --
> Timothy J. Lanza
> "When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
>
um... correct me if I am wrong but don't called shots carry a rather
large penalty? I don't have my books handy but it seems to me that even
with smartlink 2 called shots aren't that commonly successful.... what
kind of firearm skill levels do your characters have?
Aethelwulf

Message no. 99 On Monday 25 October 2004 12:25 am, Aethelwulf <"Aethelwulf"
<uptoic@***********.net>> wrote:

>um... correct me if I am wrong but don't called shots carry a rather
>large penalty? I don't have my books handy but it seems to me that even
>with smartlink 2 called shots aren't that commonly successful.... what
>kind of firearm skill levels do your characters have?

Called shot: +4 TN, +1 Wound level or specific game effect. [1]

However, with a smartlink 2, they are only at +2 TN, in addition to normal
smartlink bonuses, same effects.

--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
bss03@**********.com
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy

[1] Um, I guess that's SR2; I think SR3 might have explictly added "bypass
armor".

Message no. 100 According to Nightwinder, on Sunday 24 October 2004 15:58 the word on the
street was...

> I've always considered the T-Bolt to work the same way the G-11 was
> designed to, which is one burst fired at an incredibly high ROF in order
> to get the bullets out before the recoil impulse has the chance to
> effect the aim point of the weapon.

That's what the text in the book sort of implies, IIRC. If you look more
(too) deeply into it, though, you'll notice that there isn't going to be
room in a pistol to use that kind of a mechanism :) (In the G11, all the
working parts recoiled, including the magazine, firing off the last two of
the three rounds as they did so; the whole thing only returned forward
after the third round had been fired. How do you fit something like this
into a pistol frame?)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Ik ben het beu
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
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Message no. 101 On Oct 25, 2004, at 06:37, Da Twink Daddy wrote:

> [1] Um, I guess that's SR2; I think SR3 might have explictly added
> "bypass
> armor".

Despite what a lot of people seem to think, no.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"

Message no. 102 Timothy J. Lanza wrote:

> At 06:47 PM 10/24/2004, Ice Heart wrote:
>
>> The Ares Viper "Slivergun" is easy enough to handle. It is in
>> permanent flechette mode, and cannot load any alternte ammo. Hence,
>> armor of any sort tends to radically reduce the effectiveness of the
>> weapon. How many unarmored foes do your PCs face?
>
>
> Not many... but very few of them wear helmets.
>
> Smartlink II... Called Shot to the face... Ares Viper...
>
> Hamburger, anyone?
>
I imagine it goes without saying, but it doesn't even need to be a
Viper...one of my favority PCs pulled regular headshots with an Ares
Predator and pretty much left his targets on the ground. Of course, the
character had a knack for ending up in the right place and time to make
such shots without having to conserve combat pool. (Our GM did allow
for bypassing armor on a called shot if it made sense...)

And regarding the whole business with the Ruger Thunderbolt...I don't
see what the big deal is...characters that are competent with firearms
are dangerous...period. Unless the opponent(s) the GM is sending the
PCs up against are Munched themselves there isn't really much difference
between kill and overkill...their target is still likely to be dead
unless the GM plays the opponent smart.

-- Blair

Blair Monroe
Long time Lurker and SR GM
SRGC 0.22: SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h+ b+++ B++ UB+ IE+(-) RN- W+ gm+ M-(+) P--

Message no. 103 At 01:25 AM 10/25/2004, Aethelwulf wrote:
> > Hamburger, anyone?
>
>um... correct me if I am wrong but don't called shots carry a rather
>large penalty? I don't have my books handy but it seems to me that even
>with smartlink 2 called shots aren't that commonly successful.... what
>kind of firearm skill levels do your characters have?

I never said it would be easy, just that it would be devestating.

9M to start. 9S for Flechette. 12D for Burst. 12D+OverflowRuleOfChoice for
the Called Shot.

Hamburger Head

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman

Message no. 104 At 12:16 PM 10/25/2004, Blair Monroe wrote:
>Timothy J. Lanza wrote:
>
>>At 06:47 PM 10/24/2004, Ice Heart wrote:
>>
>>>The Ares Viper "Slivergun" is easy enough to handle. It is in
>>>permanent flechette mode, and cannot load any alternte ammo. Hence,
>>>armor of any sort tends to radically reduce the effectiveness of the
>>>weapon. How many unarmored foes do your PCs face?
>>
>>Not many... but very few of them wear helmets.
>>
>>Smartlink II... Called Shot to the face... Ares Viper...
>>
>>Hamburger, anyone?
>I imagine it goes without saying, but it doesn't even need to be a
>Viper...one of my favority PCs pulled regular headshots with an Ares
>Predator and pretty much left his targets on the ground. Of course, the
>character had a knack for ending up in the right place and time to make
>such shots without having to conserve combat pool. (Our GM did allow for
>bypassing armor on a called shot if it made sense...)

True enough, true enough. But then you just get a big hole. It's the
/effect/ that I'm talking about, really, not the damage code. Hundreds of
slivers blow through the target... by the time they reach the back of the
skull, many don't have enough energy to penetrate, so they bounce back
through the soft grey matter.

Hamburger. :)

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman

Message no. 105 > And regarding the whole business with the Ruger Thunderbolt...I
> don't
> see what the big deal is...characters that are competent with
> firearms
> are dangerous...period. Unless the opponent(s) the GM is sending
> the
> PCs up against are Munched themselves there isn't really much
> difference
> between kill and overkill...their target is still likely to be dead
>
> unless the GM plays the opponent smart.

I think people are missing the point of my original contention with
the Ruger, and the reason for my house rule.

I don't mind weapons that kill quickly, nor do I mind PCs having
them. I don't mind PCs coming up with tactics that chew through
enemies faster. What I mind is a weapon I consider unbalanced. The
concealability and base stopping power of a heavy pistol, with the
burst capabilities of an SMG. I simply do not feel that the
drawbacks are adequate to balance the weapon. It far outstrips other
weapons of its class. Heavy Pistols tend to be close range, stopping
weapons. High caliber. They are not generally chosen for their
stealth or ammo capacity. Look at machine pistols and SMGs... lots
of ammo, low caliber (base damage codes). They are designed for
spraying ammo. Heavy Pistols are not. Hence, when you modify one to
spray lead, it is harder to control. Big hunks of lead, lots of
expanding gas... and in the caseof the Thunderbolt, a cyclic rate
designed to get the last bullet in a burst out of the gun before the
recoil from the first can move the barrel. Hence, I add a simple
rule that says, "when that recoil from three rounds in a row at 1,500
cycles per second hits your wrist all together, there is some
punishment". A person with a 4 body has a pretty good chance of
getting 2 4's and making the L stun go away. Furthermore, in my
games, at least, Stun is not grounds for workers comp or long term
medical worry, as some responses to this thread have suggested. Stun
is bruising and strain, sore muscles and headaches, the kind of stuff
you sleep off. If a person willfully stresses a muscles or tendon
through 10 boxes of Stun, something that would take a lot with my
rule, they will take some minor damage. Natch. If you chop wood by
hand for a few hours, you might get sore shoulders... Stun damage.
If you aggravate your shoulders enough, you might pull something...
Phys damage.

Bottom line is, with a little extra drawback, I don't mind the
Thunderbolt. As is, I do mind it. So I added a drawback or two.
Thus far, in play, they have had minimal impact. If I were to see a
suddden shift in the balance of play because of my rule, I would edit
it. There has been some pretty strong reaction to my rule, by people
who have not even tried it. The single biggest suggestion to emerge
from this thread is that I should rely on "social engineering" to
control the weapon. The attitude of LS towards someone using the
Thunderbolt is as much flavor text as the suggestion from the LS
sourcebook that weapon is extremely punishing to the hands/wrists of
the user. Yet, everyone seems to think that a rule that invokes that
punishment is "too severe". I am not sure that logic makes any
sense.

In any case, I am sticking with my rule, and allowing the Ruger
T-bolt within the confines of my rule, until such time as I see a
problem in play. I believe the intitial question that kicked off the
thread, was whether anyone used the Thuderbolt in their games. I do,
but not quite as written.

======Korishinzo
--evil GM

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