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Message no. 1
From: Greg James <james@******.ARC.AB.CA>
Subject: Rules for firing stance ans silenced weapons
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 16:52:17 -0600
I have created some optional rules for firing stance (hip vs. shoulder) and
silenced weapons. I welcome your feedback about them.

**
Firing stance rules
**

Firearms are more accurate when fired from a firing stance (stock resting
against shoulder) than when fired from the hip. However this stance is
slower to attain. These rules are intended to differentiate between the two
stances.

For GMs: assume that, when players are moving with weapons drawn, they are
in a hip stance unless they state otherwise. Players can move in firing
stance, but are less likely to make perception checks in their peripheral
vision (-1 to target number in front 60 degrees, +2 outside that cone)

It is a simple action to move from a hip stance to a firing stance or vice
versa.

When hip firing the following rules apply. All attacks are subject to a +1
target number modifier. Players may not use any recoil bonus that would be
gained from stocks or shock pads. Bonuses from gas vents and sound
suppressor/silencers (see below) still apply. Characters cannot take aim
from a hip stance unless they have a laser sight, and ultrasound sight, or
a smartgun. If so, the maximum bonus is -1, -2 for a smartgun.

When in a firing stance the following rules apply. If the weapon has a
stock (extended stock if folding) that character gains one point of recoil
compensation. Shock pads increase that by 1. Aim time bonuses are now
unlimited.


**
Silenced weapons
**

References: Phoenix Command Small Arms Combat System, and the Compendium of
Modern Firearms.

Summary: Silenced weapons pay a penalty for reduced noise, principally in
crappier ballistic performance and weight.

A little background information is useful here. First, there are three
things that make firearms noisy. The first, and more important, is that
modern ammunition tends to travel faster than the speed of sound in air
(about 300m/s), giving each bullet a sonic boom. Hence, silenced firearms
*must* somehow reduce their muzzle velocity below 300m/s. In comparison an
M16A2 has a muzzle velocity of about 945m/s.

The second is muzzle blast. After the bullet exits the barrel, there is
still expanding gasses coming behind it. This causes its own sonic boom.
Even worse, when firing high-powered ammunition in a short barrel,
combustion is not complete by the time the bullet exits the barrel. This
causes combustion to occur at the end of the barrel, resulting in a small
explosion with its own big sonic boom (and accompanying visible light and
IR flash). This is especially true in assault rifle carbine weapons like
the (present day) AC-556K (Mini-14 carbine), CAR-15, AKR, and HK53.

The third, and lesser, effect is the mechanical action of the weapon
itself. The bolt blowing back, a new round being forefully chambered, etc.

For the purposes of our discussion, we're going to call a silencer a
mechanism to attenuate muzzle blast only. A suppressor is a mechanism to
attenuate muzzle blast and slow the bullet to subsonic speeds.

There are traditionally three approaches to decreasing muzzle velocity, and
they all have different side effects. The first is to use subsonic
ammunition. Less powder, less velocity. Advantages: you can operate with a
silencer. Disadvantages: If your weapon can also handle regular ammo, you
need to carry (and source) both types.

The second approach is the attachable sound suppressor. These typically
operate using one of two systems. One is a series of baffles and rings that
physically manhandles the bullet, slowing it down by friction. The problem
is, after a certain number of bullets, the rings wear out and the bullet is
no longer slowed. Advantages: the thing weighs a lot, and actually improves
SMG handling characteristics and recoil. You can use regular ammunition.
You can remove it. Disadvantages: it weighs a lot, and it wears out. You
can, however, replace the inserts.

The second (and better) method is to bleed off the propellant gases before
they've accelerated the bullet to supersonic speeds. This is typically done
by drilling holes in the barrel and having a long suppressor that covers
the holes. Advantages: Weighs a lot, and therefore improves SMG handling
and recoil. Doesn't wear out. Disadvantages: It weighs a lot, and you can't
remove it. Well, you can, but you'll still get slow bullets and also get a
burnt hand and lots of noise.

The final solution is used in the HK MP2000. You get two gas settings,
(high and low) and a removable suppressor. With regular ammunition in
regular firing or subsonic ammo with the suppressor, you use the high
pressure setting. The result: a regular SMG, or suppressed firing,
respectively. However, you can also use regular ammo, the suppressor, and
the low pressure setting. In this case, ports are opened to bleed
propellant gases and you get suppressed firing. Awright! Advantages:
maximum ammo & situational flexibility, suppressor improves handling.
Disadvantages: it still weighs a lot.

A disadvantage to all silenced weapons is that you get sucky penetration
and wounding potential.

Some firearms have mechanisms to silence the weapon action, typically
turning them into manula repeaters (you have to manually draw the bolt back
after each shot).

Let's make some rules!

Carbine-type assault rifles, shotguns, and assault cannons cannot have any
type of silencing. Incidentally, carbines can't fire rifle grenades either.

All firearms firing silenced have their weapon power cut in half (round
down), and their damage code reduced one level (L damage stays L).

Subsonic ammunition is available in regular and APDS versions. However,
APDS only knocks off a quarter of the opponent's armour rating, not half
(APDS is supposed to go fast). Subsonic ammunition costs the same as its
base ammo, but has its street index increased by 1. Anyone with the skill
Firearms (B/R) can make subsonic ammo from its base ammo as a simple task.

Any eligible firearm with a base damage code of L can use a silencer with
standard ammuntion. When so equipped, it can only fire SA or else it loses
its silenced benefits. Any firearm using subsonic ammuntion can use a
silencer under the same restriction. Silencers give 1 point of recoil
compensation.

All suppressors give two points of recoil reduction when firing the weapon
with both hands, one point if one-handed.

Any eligible firearm can have a rubber insert type suppressor attached. It
is good for 50 rounds, after which it doesn't work as a suppressor. New
insert packs are Y100 and replacing them is a Firearm B/R Simple task.

Any firearm that has an 'integral' suppressor has the HK MP2000 type. If
you want to re-calculate weights, take the base weapon and add .25lb for
the gas control mechanism. Switching gas mode is a simple action (free for
smartlinks).

Already purchased (or standard) eligible firearms can be converted. The
conversion adds .25lb,costs Y600, and is a Firearms B/R Average task.

Included with integral-suppressor and gas-converted firearms are the
modifications to make the gun a more-silent manual repeater. If you choose
this firing option, cocking is a simple task, and the perception modifier
for 'Silenced single gunshot' drops to -1 (from 0).

Weights
Type/Weapon Type Pistol SMG AR/Rifle/Sniper Rifle Cost (same as before)
Silencer .5 .5 .75 Y500
Insert Suppressor .5 1.25 1.75 Y750
Gas Suppressor .5 1.25 2.25 Y750
Message no. 2
From: "Victor Rodriguez, Jr" <sedahdro@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Rules for firing stance ans silenced weapons
Date: Wed, 9 Aug 1995 21:05:00 EST
Why not just use a potatoe, or a 2 liter plastic bottle for one time
silencer. They are both much cheaper.
Message no. 3
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Rules for firing stance ans silenced weapons
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 15:02:44 +1000
Greg James writes:

> I have created some optional rules for firing stance (hip vs. shoulder) and
> silenced weapons. I welcome your feedback about them.

Cool, firing stance rules, something I've often wondered about w.r.t.
recoil. And silencers, not actually something I've ever wondered about, but
obviously something that needs a little expanding/fixing in SR.

> GMs: assume that, when players are moving with weapons drawn, they are
> in a hip stance unless they state otherwise. Players can move in firing
> stance, but are less likely to make perception checks in their peripheral
> vision (-1 to target number in front 60 degrees, +2 outside that cone)

Do you think perhaps a movement reduction is appropriate for moving in this
stance? Is it any slower/more difficult to move?

> When hip firing the following rules apply... Characters cannot take aim
> from a hip stance unless they have a laser sight, and ultrasound sight, or
> a smartgun. If so, the maximum bonus is -1, -2 for a smartgun.

I assume you mean by taking aim the rule in SR about spending simple actions
and getting -1 per action to the TN? Also, does one still apply the normal
-1 for laser sights and -2 for smartlinks to the TN?

> When in a firing stance the following rules apply... Aim time bonuses are
> now unlimited.

That same rule again I take it? Don't you think that there maybe should be
some limit? Otherwise someone could aim for long lenths of time in severe
conditions and still only need 2's.

> For the purposes of our discussion, we're going to call a silencer a
> mechanism to attenuate muzzle blast only. A suppressor is a mechanism to
> attenuate muzzle blast and slow the bullet to subsonic speeds.

So a silencer is really only a flash suppressant for supersonic ammo, but it
works as a true "silencer" for subsonic ammo? While a suppressor works as a
true "silencer" for supersonic ammo, and is unnecccessary for subsonic ammo?
(I use "silencer" here in my laymans terms, as in the thingy you see in
movies that makes guns make a soft "thwap" sound when they fire, not in the
more technical or precise term you've used it.)

> Carbine-type assault rifles, shotguns, and assault cannons cannot have any
> type of silencing. Incidentally, carbines can't fire rifle grenades either.

Why couldn't carbine type assualt rifles get silencing? I wouldn't imagine
the barrel length would be the problem, after all, SMG's can be silenced.
Also, why couldn't carbines use rifle grenades (besides the obvious that the
grenade launcher is probably longer than the weapon, which, hey, does look
cool, and could be worked around I imagine)?

> All firearms firing silenced have their weapon power cut in half (round
> down), and their damage code reduced one level (L damage stays L).

Ooohh, _that_ bad? You said sucky penetration and damage, and you weren't
lying.

> Any eligible firearm with a base damage code of L can use a silencer with
> standard ammuntion. When so equipped, it can only fire SA or else it loses
> its silenced benefits.

So there can be no silenced bursts?

> Any firearm that has an 'integral' suppressor has the HK MP2000 type. If
> you want to re-calculate weights, take the base weapon and add .25lb for
> the gas control mechanism.

Note that SR uses kg, not lb :-)

> Weights
> Type/Weapon Type Pistol SMG AR/Rifle/Sniper Rifle Cost (same as before)
> Silencer .5 .5 .75 Y500
> Insert Suppressor .5 1.25 1.75 Y750
> Gas Suppressor .5 1.25 2.25 Y750

Ditto, are these kg or lb?

I'm curious as to what would happen if you fired subsonic ammo when using a
suppressor (either the gas bleed model, or the baffel one it doens't really
matter). Would you end up with a really slow bullet? Even more sucky
penetration and damage?

Any rules I've cut out or not commented on I think are fine (It's like Gurth
says, those with something good to say, or those whom agree, have no need to
say anything).

Otherwise the rules sound really great. Excellently researched and very well
thought out indeed. You don't feel like constructing a set of recoil rules
do you...? <grin>

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
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b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Rules for firing stance ans silenced weapons
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 11:29:28 +0200
>> Carbine-type assault rifles, shotguns, and assault cannons cannot have any
>> type of silencing. Incidentally, carbines can't fire rifle grenades either.
>
>Why couldn't carbine type assualt rifles get silencing? I wouldn't imagine
>the barrel length would be the problem, after all, SMG's can be silenced.

An SMG fires rounds with a lot less "power" behind them. In most carbines
(that means, shortened assault rifles), the barrel is too short to let the
propellant burn completely before the bullet leaves the barrel. Still I
don't see why you couldn't fit a silencer onto one...

>Also, why couldn't carbines use rifle grenades (besides the obvious that the
>grenade launcher is probably longer than the weapon, which, hey, does look
>cool, and could be worked around I imagine)?

A rifle grenade needs no launcher. All you need for it is to have a certain
diameter barrel or flash suppressor (22mm is common in the west), and the
grenade fits over that. A carbine usually has too short a barrel to allow
the rifle grenade to fit properly over it, so you can't fire them.

>Any rules I've cut out or not commented on I think are fine (It's like Gurth
>says, those with something good to say, or those whom agree, have no need to
>say anything).

Looks like I've started a saying here :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
people who are experts at avoiding reality
GC3.0: GAT/! dpu s:- !a>? C+(++) U P L E? W(++) N K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP-
t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G++ e h! !r(--) y? Unofficial Shadowrun
Guru :)
Message no. 5
From: Greg James <james@******.ARC.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Rules for firing stance ans silenced weapons
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 09:38:00 -0600
>> GMs: assume that, when players are moving with weapons drawn, they are
>> in a hip stance unless they state otherwise. Players can move in firing
>> stance, but are less likely to make perception checks in their peripheral
>> vision (-1 to target number in front 60 degrees, +2 outside that cone)
>
>Do you think perhaps a movement reduction is appropriate for moving in this
>stance? Is it any slower/more difficult to move?

I think your top speed is probably affected, but I've seen police tactical
team members running at a good clip peering down their MP5's, so I think we
can probably let players run in this position. When playing paintball, I've
noticed it gets tiring pretty quick, though.

>> When hip firing the following rules apply... Characters cannot take aim
>> from a hip stance unless they have a laser sight, and ultrasound sight, or
>> a smartgun. If so, the maximum bonus is -1, -2 for a smartgun.
>
>I assume you mean by taking aim the rule in SR about spending simple actions
>and getting -1 per action to the TN? Also, does one still apply the normal
>-1 for laser sights and -2 for smartlinks to the TN?

Yes, yes, and yes. That is, you can onlu use limited simple actions to
decrease your target number when in a hip stance. Laser sight and smartlink
modifiers still apply. However, aim point sights (from 'Toys for
Shadowrunners' on the Web archive) can only be used from a firing stance.

>> When in a firing stance the following rules apply... Aim time bonuses are
>> now unlimited.
>
>That same rule again I take it? Don't you think that there maybe should be
>some limit? Otherwise someone could aim for long lenths of time in severe
>conditions and still only need 2's.

I was simply defaulting to the standard SR rules. A good subtitle for my
rules would be, 'Rules for people who think SR firearms combat isn't
complex enough', and imposing a maximum aim bonus would lead me into rules
that I hadn't set out to write in the first place.

If I were to write such rules, they would probably have variable maximum
depending on the type of weapon. Rifles are inherently more accurate and
have better sights than pistols, so the aim max would be higher.

>> For the purposes of our discussion, we're going to call a silencer a
>> mechanism to attenuate muzzle blast only. A suppressor is a mechanism to
>> attenuate muzzle blast and slow the bullet to subsonic speeds.
>
>So a silencer is really only a flash suppressant for supersonic ammo, but it
>works as a true "silencer" for subsonic ammo? While a suppressor works as a
>true "silencer" for supersonic ammo, and is unnecccessary for subsonic ammo?
>(I use "silencer" here in my laymans terms, as in the thingy you see in
>movies that makes guns make a soft "thwap" sound when they fire, not in the
>more technical or precise term you've used it.)

I have to beg partial ignorance here, because I don't have any background
in firearm theory really, and I'm just espousing an amalgam of what I have
read elsewhere. I am also limited by the lax manner in which
silencers/suppressors have been treated in SR thus far.

What you've staed is consistent with my model, except that some sort of
muzzle blast attenuation is necessary even with subsonic ammo. That is, the
propellant gases may still create an undesirable (and avoidable) sound even
if the bullet is moving at subsonic speeds.

>> Carbine-type assault rifles, shotguns, and assault cannons cannot have any
>> type of silencing. Incidentally, carbines can't fire rifle grenades either.
>
>Why couldn't carbine type assualt rifles get silencing? I wouldn't imagine
>the barrel length would be the problem, after all, SMG's can be silenced.
>Also, why couldn't carbines use rifle grenades (besides the obvious that the
>grenade launcher is probably longer than the weapon, which, hey, does look
>cool, and could be worked around I imagine)?

Someone else has addressed these issues well.

>> All firearms firing silenced have their weapon power cut in half (round
>> down), and their damage code reduced one level (L damage stays L).
>
>Ooohh, _that_ bad? You said sucky penetration and damage, and you weren't
>lying.

Aw, quit yer bitchin'. :-) The Barret Model 121 still does 7S damage silenced.

More seriously, now. Phoenix Command SACS ballistics use two main
attributes, not unlike SR: penetration and damage code. When talking about
ordinary firearms, each weapon gets it own stats. e.g. At 20 yards a SIG
P226 (9mm) with FMJ ammo has pen 1.9, dc 3, while a HK MP5 has pen 2.5, dc
3. A .50 Browing has pen 45, dc 10.

Anyway, for suppressed weapons, they only offer stats for ammunition types
e.g. 9x19mm. The point being a) they're too lazy to do every weapon, and b)
all the ammo is now going the same speed (<300m/s). This performance hit
will be worse for rifles: an MP5 is slowed from 400 to 285 m/s, while a
7.62mm NATO sniper rifle goes from ~790m/s down to <300.

When I compared numbers between the actual weapon and its suppressed ammo
type, you were looking at a 50% drop in penetration, and about a 30-70%
from in damage code, especially for ammo that depends on velocity for
wounding (e.g. 5.56mm NATO). So I cut everything in half.

Two caveats. One: these are optional rules, and not official by any stretch
of the imagination. GMs are free to screw with my numbers if they wish.

Two: a 50% drop in power in SR may result in a > 50% drop in penetration
because of the way SR resolves the ammo vs. body armour battle. An example:
my 8M SMG is now 4L. An 8 target number (unmodified) needs (on average) >
20 dice to get 4 successes (necessary to avoid any damage) while 4L only
needs 4 to get 2 successes (on average). In Phoenix Command, our unlucky
target is still going to suffer partial (maybe) penetration, blunt trauma,
and knockdown effects.

Okay. A 25% drop in power, a one damage code drop (L stays L).

>> Any eligible firearm with a base damage code of L can use a silencer with
>> standard ammuntion. When so equipped, it can only fire SA or else it loses
>> its silenced benefits.
>
>So there can be no silenced bursts?

Hmm. This is one of the grey areas that I'm not really sure about. My
reasoning here is that a silencer (my definition) is meant to attenuate
muzzle blast, and that multiple bullets screw up the gas dissipation. A
suppressor, OTOH, is bulkier and meant for those 'beefier' firefights.

I think if you adopt this rule it should be for gameplay purposes.
Silencers are light and meant for max concealability, but you compromise
your combat effectiveness.

>> Any firearm that has an 'integral' suppressor has the HK MP2000 type. If
>> you want to re-calculate weights, take the base weapon and add .25lb for
>> the gas control mechanism.
>
>Note that SR uses kg, not lb :-)

Whoa! Right you are. Boy is my face red, especially since I live in Canada.
I'll just blame FASA for my mis-reading for not using the word 'mass'. I'll
fix the weights.

>I'm curious as to what would happen if you fired subsonic ammo when using a
>suppressor (either the gas bleed model, or the baffel one it doens't really
>matter). Would you end up with a really slow bullet? Even more sucky
>penetration and damage?

Yes. You'd get a pellet gun. Perhaps you could use it to get your
girl/boyfriend's attention by firing it at their bedroom window if there
wasn't any gravel handy :-).

>Otherwise the rules sound really great. Excellently researched and very well
>thought out indeed. You don't feel like constructing a set of recoil rules
>do you...? <grin>

Thank you. Let me get these added to the SR Web archive, and then I'll see
what I can do.


In Canada, room temperature IQs dropped 50 | Greg James Msc., BSc.(H)
points in 1977. Why? | Research Programmer, PAMI
"Sail all summer, then ski when the | Alberta Research Council
water gets hard." | james@******.arc.ab.ca
Message no. 6
From: Greg James <james@******.ARC.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Rules for firing stance ans silenced weapons
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 08:45:21 -0600
>>> Carbine-type assault rifles, shotguns, and assault cannons cannot have any
>>> type of silencing. Incidentally, carbines can't fire rifle grenades either.
>>
>>Why couldn't carbine type assualt rifles get silencing? I wouldn't imagine
>>the barrel length would be the problem, after all, SMG's can be silenced.
>
>An SMG fires rounds with a lot less "power" behind them. In most carbines
>(that means, shortened assault rifles), the barrel is too short to let the
>propellant burn completely before the bullet leaves the barrel. Still I
>don't see why you couldn't fit a silencer onto one...

The problem is that carbine-type ARs have an additional problem in that
they have propellant burning outside of the barrel. While I don't claim to
be a firearms expert, I think that having combustion take place inside your
silencer would not be a good thing.

The other effect is that you probably can't bleed propellant gases quickly
enough before the bullet leaves the barrel to prevent acceleration to
supersonic speeds.



In Canada, room temperature IQs dropped 50 | Greg James Msc., BSc.(H)
points in 1977. Why? | Research Programmer, PAMI
"Sail all summer, then ski when the | Alberta Research Council
water gets hard." | james@******.arc.ab.ca
Message no. 7
From: Greg James <james@******.ARC.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Rules for firing stance ans silenced weapons
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 11:27:23 -0600
And you thought I was embarassed abou the metric/imperial thing?

I've managed to delete the text file where I created all of these rules. If
anyone has a full copy of the message I sent, I'd really appreciate it if
you sent it back to me.


In Canada, room temperature IQs dropped 50 | Greg James Msc., BSc.(H)
points in 1977. Why? | Research Programmer, PAMI
"Sail all summer, then ski when the | Alberta Research Council
water gets hard." | james@******.arc.ab.ca
Message no. 8
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rules for firing stance ans silenced weapons
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 14:12:33 -0400
On Mon, 14 Aug 1995, Greg James wrote:

> I think your top speed is probably affected, but I've seen police tactical
> team members running at a good clip peering down their MP5's, so I think we
> can probably let players run in this position. When playing paintball, I've
> noticed it gets tiring pretty quick, though.

Yeah, but then again so does everything else about paintball, like
getting shot in the head.

Marc
Message no. 9
From: Cugel the Clever <cugel@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Rules for firing stance ans silenced weapons
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 23:53:06 +01.0
On 14 Aug 95 at 11:29, Gurth wrote:

> >Any rules I've cut out or not commented on I think are fine (It's
> >like Gurth says, those with something good to say, or those whom
> >agree, have no need to say anything).
>
> Looks like I've started a saying here :)

Hey, that one was mine!!! :) Stay away from my sayings, I've trouble
enough making up new ones to let my old ones get stolen. :)


Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net / bdi05626@***.rhij.nl)
Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in
your home. -- (Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens)
Geek Code v3.0:
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Message no. 10
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Rules for firing stance ans silenced weapons
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 1995 17:26:01 GMT
> >Why couldn't carbine type assualt rifles get silencing? I wouldn't imagine
> >the barrel length would be the problem, after all, SMG's can be silenced.
>
> An SMG fires rounds with a lot less "power" behind them. In most carbines
> (that means, shortened assault rifles), the barrel is too short to let the
> propellant burn completely before the bullet leaves the barrel. Still I
> don't see why you couldn't fit a silencer onto one...

It's just less effective than on a SMG because you have so much more blast
to dissipate.

> >Also, why couldn't carbines use rifle grenades (besides the obvious that the
> >grenade launcher is probably longer than the weapon, which, hey, does look
> >cool, and could be worked around I imagine)?
> A rifle grenade needs no launcher. All you need for it is to have a certain
> diameter barrel or flash suppressor (22mm is common in the west), and the
> grenade fits over that. A carbine usually has too short a barrel to allow
> the rifle grenade to fit properly over it, so you can't fire them.

Although you can easily extend the flash hider, such as on the Mini-Uzi, and
many carbine-type rifles work well: The M4 carbine, for instance,
can fire rifle grenades without problems. You don't need too much barrel
most of the time. It can be hard on the shoulder, though...

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Rules for firing stance ans silenced weapons
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 11:07:46 +0200
>> Looks like I've started a saying here :)
>
>Hey, that one was mine!!! :) Stay away from my sayings, I've trouble
>enough making up new ones to let my old ones get stolen. :)

I thought you said it was something I told you once? (About the American
Constitution debate, wasn't it?)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
people who are experts at avoiding reality
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Guru :)
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Rules for firing stance ans silenced weapons
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 11:07:48 +0200
>It's just less effective than on a SMG because you have so much more blast
>to dissipate.

Yes, but that doesn't mean you _can't_fit_ a silencer. It would give less of
a bonus, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
people who are experts at avoiding reality
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Guru :)
Message no. 13
From: David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Rules for firing stance ans silenced weapons
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 02:16:02 -0700
On Mon, 14 Aug 1995, Damion Milliken wrote:

> Greg James writes:
>
> > Carbine-type assault rifles, shotguns, and assault cannons cannot have any
> > type of silencing. Incidentally, carbines can't fire rifle grenades either.
>
> Why couldn't carbine type assualt rifles get silencing? I wouldn't imagine
> the barrel length would be the problem, after all, SMG's can be silenced.
> Also, why couldn't carbines use rifle grenades (besides the obvious that the
> grenade launcher is probably longer than the weapon, which, hey, does look
> cool, and could be worked around I imagine)?
>

In the real (vs shadowrun) world almost any rifle, carbine,
semi-automatic pistol and single shot pistol can be fitted with a
suppressor that will reduce, change or distort it (so it does not sound
like a shot). In all cases sub-sonic ammuition makes the device more
effective and less likely for an automatic or semi-automatic weapon to
function properly. Gas-operated weapons are less reliable with the lower
gas pressure of subsonic ammuition.
The United States Army (or the CIA) had a suppressor for a 20mm
Anti-Aircraft Gun which was supplied to some resistance groups during the
cold war. Silenced shotgun ammuition exists, it works in conventional
unmodified break-action shotguns. It consists of a hard brass case with a
soft copper insert that is fitted over the propellent (the propellent is
samwiched between the brass case and the concave insert) the wadding and
shot (or slug) is inserted into the insert. When the shell is fired the
soft copper insert inverts propelling the wad and shot down the barrel
while containing all the noise, flash and gas from the propellent. Hense
no noise (this reduced power load is subsonic). A light mortar using a
variation of this design (NR 811A1 Fly-K Mortar) exists....yes a silenced
52mm mortar.
As to rifle grenades.....a rifle grenade is not the same thing as
a rifle mounted grenade launcher. The rifle mounted grenade launchers use
fixed ammuition (like large [40mm]pistol ammo) that is inserted into the
barrel of the launcher. A rifle grenade on the other hand resembles a
mortar shell and is normally fired from a special fitting (also called a
grenade launcher...just to confuse us) that either is machined on to or
mounted on the muzzle of a rifle or carbine. The grenade is fitted over
the rifle muzzle and a single cartridge (sometimes a special blank
sometimes not) is fired causing the grenade to go down range. The rifle
but was most often placed on the ground as the recoil is very heavy. A
wide varity of grenade types are available. The under rifle launcher has
replaced the rifle grenade for all extent and purposes in the United States
Army. There was in 1985 an expermental 140mm rifle grenade type weapon
for use with the M-16 against concrete bunkers (a HESH warhead I think)
One last thing revolvers, because of the gap between the cylinder
and barrel, can not be effectively silenced (Hollywood has never got this
right.
I am finishing up a sourcebook of exotic modern small arms
adapted to Shadowrun so I have stats for some of the weapons discussed
above I can post some of this matterial in draft form if there is intrest
in exotic iron mongery.

David Hinkley
Message no. 14
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.INFORMATIK.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Rules for firing stance ans silenced weapons
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 12:15:20 +0200
> I am finishing up a sourcebook of exotic modern small arms
> adapted to Shadowrun so I have stats for some of the weapons discussed
> above I can post some of this matterial in draft form if there is intrest
> in exotic iron mongery.
There _is_ interest and... *check hard drive* place to take it! :-)

Sascha
Message no. 15
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: Rules for firing stance ans silenced weapons
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 13:08:38 +0200
:->> I am finishing up a sourcebook of exotic modern small arms
:->> adapted to Shadowrun so I have stats for some of the weapons discussed
:->> above I can post some of this matterial in draft form if there is intrest
:->> in exotic iron mongery.
:->There _is_ interest and... *check hard drive* place to take it! :-)
:->
Well, I figure that adding anther couple 'o hundred grams of
paper to my gaming file won't kill me. So yes there is interest (and
lots of it !)

Andre'

Boom Boom Shake the Room !
-Phoenix, Pyromanical Hermetic Mage of Seattle 2053

Ou-oh.............I think we're in trouble now
What makes you say that ?
The fact that theres a dragon behind !
You're right...calmly now....RRRR U U NN N ||
R R U U N N N ||
RRRR U U N N N ||
R R U U N N N
R R UUU N NN ()

-a standard encounter
Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Rules for firing stance ans silenced weapons
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 23:11:50 +0200
> One last thing revolvers, because of the gap between the cylinder
>and barrel, can not be effectively silenced (Hollywood has never got this
>right.

Yes it can, but your silencer has to enclose the cylinder as well as the
muzzle. I saw a picture of a revolver silencer once, though I think it was
built by hand :) Another way is to try and close the gap by some sort of
extension to the cartridge case or something, but the problem is that that
extension has to be retracted before the next shot as well :)

> I am finishing up a sourcebook of exotic modern small arms
>adapted to Shadowrun so I have stats for some of the weapons discussed
>above I can post some of this matterial in draft form if there is intrest
>in exotic iron mongery.

Well, why not? I'd like to see the book when it's finished, too... I take it
you're going to upload it on cerebus or some other ftp site?

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
tattooed everything
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Guru :)
Message no. 17
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Rules for firing stance ans silenced weapons
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 00:41:28 GMT
Damon replied to Greg, then I replied to Damon, saying:
> > Greg James writes:
> > I have created some optional rules for firing stance (hip vs. shoulder) and
> > silenced weapons. I welcome your feedback about them.

I haven't seen these yet... Demon's mail is a little squiffy at the moment,
so maybe they're still lost in a RAID array somewhere.

> Cool, firing stance rules, something I've often wondered about w.r.t.
> recoil. And silencers, not actually something I've ever wondered about, but
> obviously something that needs a little expanding/fixing in SR.
>
> > GMs: assume that, when players are moving with weapons drawn, they are
> > in a hip stance unless they state otherwise. Players can move in firing
> > stance, but are less likely to make perception checks in their peripheral
> > vision (-1 to target number in front 60 degrees, +2 outside that cone)

> Do you think perhaps a movement reduction is appropriate for moving in this
> stance? Is it any slower/more difficult to move?

Not with practice, but it does tend to cut your visibility. I noticed the
loss of peripheral vision was much greater with the longer, heavier L1A1
SLR than with SA80.

Accuracy, though, is up by an order of magnitude in my experience. Expect
to make hits on a man-size (Figure 11) target almost every time from the
shoulder at 100 metres, using a rifle from the shoulder. From the hip?
Forget it.

> > When hip firing the following rules apply... Characters cannot take aim
> > from a hip stance unless they have a laser sight, and ultrasound sight, or
> > a smartgun. If so, the maximum bonus is -1, -2 for a smartgun.
>
> I assume you mean by taking aim the rule in SR about spending simple actions
> and getting -1 per action to the TN? Also, does one still apply the normal
> -1 for laser sights and -2 for smartlinks to the TN?

I'd assume so. (All my experience is with iron or optic sights as far as
rifles and MGs are concerned). With a laser or smartlink, you have sighting
data and can refine it as necessary whether from the hip or from the
shoulder: you're not using the iron sights on the weapon, so the point
is moot.

You certainly couldn't aim from the hip with iron or scope sights, though.

> > When in a firing stance the following rules apply... Aim time bonuses are
> > now unlimited.
>
> That same rule again I take it? Don't you think that there maybe should be
> some limit? Otherwise someone could aim for long lenths of time in severe
> conditions and still only need 2's.

I assume "aiming" without any augmented sight *requires* the weapon to be
braced in the shoulder anyway.

> > For the purposes of our discussion, we're going to call a silencer a
> > mechanism to attenuate muzzle blast only. A suppressor is a mechanism to
> > attenuate muzzle blast and slow the bullet to subsonic speeds.

If the bullet is not already subsonic, as in the case of most .45 pistols
and almost all 9mm weapons firing 147-grain bullets... Just me being picky.

> So a silencer is really only a flash suppressant for supersonic ammo, but it
> works as a true "silencer" for subsonic ammo? While a suppressor works as a
> true "silencer" for supersonic ammo, and is unnecccessary for subsonic
ammo?
> (I use "silencer" here in my laymans terms, as in the thingy you see in
> movies that makes guns make a soft "thwap" sound when they fire, not in the
> more technical or precise term you've used it.)

Yep. A suppressor leaves you with a supersonic bullet, but no muzzle blast.
A silencer leaves you with a subsonic bullet and no muzzle blast.

> > Carbine-type assault rifles, shotguns, and assault cannons cannot have any
> > type of silencing. Incidentally, carbines can't fire rifle grenades either.
>
> Why couldn't carbine type assualt rifles get silencing? I wouldn't imagine
> the barrel length would be the problem, after all, SMG's can be silenced.

Largely due to incomplete combustion of a rifle load's propellant in the
short barrel. Carbine-pattern rifles tend to have more muzzle blast than
their full-size siblings already. I wouldn't say it was impossible to
suppress them, merely that it would be less effective.

And I'd adjudicate rifle grenades on a case-by-case basis. The Mini-Uzi
can mount a STANAG 21mm muzzle attachment that allows it to fire bullet-trap
rifle grenades, and I've seen M4 carbines (the shortened M-16) likewise
do it.

> Also, why couldn't carbines use rifle grenades (besides the obvious that the
> grenade launcher is probably longer than the weapon, which, hey, does look
> cool, and could be worked around I imagine)?

Oops, see above. Write first, think later...

There is the small point that SR has no rifle grenades as yet... I can't
remember if my mega-gear list (on Paolo's web page at least) included them
or if they're on the list of things still to be done.

> > All firearms firing silenced have their weapon power cut in half (round
> > down), and their damage code reduced one level (L damage stays L).
>
> Ooohh, _that_ bad? You said sucky penetration and damage, and you weren't
> lying.

Sounds too extreme, especially for .45-calibre. The new US Army Offensive
Handgun (a rather nice 12-shot .45 automatic by Heckler and Koch, very
similar to their USP) uses a silencer, but there's almost no effect on
lethality: the bullet is already subsonic, the only need is to muffle
the muzzle blast.

> > Any eligible firearm with a base damage code of L can use a silencer with
> > standard ammuntion. When so equipped, it can only fire SA or else it loses
> > its silenced benefits.
>
> So there can be no silenced bursts?

Again, sounds too extreme from talking to people who've fired MP-5SDs.

> I'm curious as to what would happen if you fired subsonic ammo when using a
> suppressor (either the gas bleed model, or the baffel one it doens't really
> matter). Would you end up with a really slow bullet? Even more sucky
> penetration and damage?

No, not with a properly designed suppressor. The MP-5SD series act as
suppressors by this description, but you can load 147-grain +Ps to get a
subsonic load with excellent stopping power (still better ballistics than
most unsuppressed pistols) to eliminate the supersonic "crack" of the bullet.
It works just fine in full-auto.

> Otherwise the rules sound really great. Excellently researched and very well
> thought out indeed. You don't feel like constructing a set of recoil rules
> do you...? <grin>

Actually, I'm working on it... Raise shields! Carp inbound!

--
When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him.

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 18
From: Jason Ustica <usticaj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Rules for firing stance ans silenced weapons
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 1995 16:29:43 -0700
On Tue, 15 Aug 1995, Gurth wrote:

> > One last thing revolvers, because of the gap between the cylinder
> >and barrel, can not be effectively silenced (Hollywood has never got this
> >right.
>
> Yes it can, but your silencer has to enclose the cylinder as well as the
> muzzle. I saw a picture of a revolver silencer once, though I think it was
> built by hand :) Another way is to try and close the gap by some sort of
> extension to the cartridge case or something, but the problem is that that
> extension has to be retracted before the next shot as well :)

Yes I've seen the same thing in an american gun magazine (Guns and Ammo,
I think). Each cylinder had a small ring that would extend when the
hammer was cocked back. The ring wound seal the barrel to the cylinder,
thus allowing for a silencer at the other end. It was a prototype, and
only produced to show that silenced revolvers could be made. I wouldn't
want to use it for combat though, the thing had about a million moving
parts and it looked kind of fragile. If you really wanted one in SR (I
couldn't see why, except for maybe your image) I would say it would be
pretty expensive. Maybe take the Ruger SuperWarhawk (I think that's the
six-gun in SR, I don't have my book with me) and multiply it's cost by
about five or so. I'm not really into gunsmithing, so I have no idea how
long the base time would be if a character wanted to make a Firearms B/R
test to make a silenced revolver. Anyway, I would just stick with the
semi-autos, they're both cheaper and use proven technology.

--
Jason Ustica * Coming to you from Lancaster,CA * Email: usticaj@****.com
Message no. 19
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Rules for firing stance ans silenced weapons
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 1995 13:06:04 +0200
>There is the small point that SR has no rifle grenades as yet... I can't
>remember if my mega-gear list (on Paolo's web page at least) included them
>or if they're on the list of things still to be done.

Download "my" Chromebook conversions -- there are a number of rifle grenades
(and pistol grenades -- same thing, but launched from a pistol) in there.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
tattooed everything
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Guru :)

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