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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Wed May 15 06:30:01 2002
Where did I see the rules for "Partial defaulting", ie where you have an
appropriate skill for your action but you have a linked skill at a much
higher rating.
(eg you are pointing a shotgun at someone, your shotguns skill is 1 but you
have rifles at 8.)
I know I've seen it but I can't remember it and I can't find it. Can anyone
remember where it is?

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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Wed May 15 13:35:01 2002
According to Lone Eagle, on Wed, 15 May 2002 the word on the street was...

> Where did I see the rules for "Partial defaulting", ie where you have an
> appropriate skill for your action but you have a linked skill at a much
> higher rating.
> (eg you are pointing a shotgun at someone, your shotguns skill is 1 but
> you have rifles at 8.)
> I know I've seen it but I can't remember it and I can't find it. Can
> anyone remember where it is?

These were first introduced in the original Shadowrun Companion (for SRII),
on page 46. They don't seem to be in the SR3 version, nor in the SR3 main
rules, though.

--
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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Wed May 15 15:25:01 2002
> > Where did I see the rules for "Partial defaulting", ie where you
have an
> > appropriate skill for your action but you have a linked skill at a
much
> > higher rating.
> > (eg you are pointing a shotgun at someone, your shotguns skill is 1
but
> > you have rifles at 8.)
> > I know I've seen it but I can't remember it and I can't find it. Can
> > anyone remember where it is?
Personally I'd say hell no if someone wanted to try it, that's like
saying umm...I can drive a 4x4 really well, lets see if I can drive this
Ferrari like I do the truck, or better yet, the reverse of that. If
you've got the skill you're stuck with it, I don't care if it's much
less than what you've got in another skill, tough, learn to use that
skill better so you can improve it.
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Wed May 15 21:50:01 2002
<snipt!(TM)>
> Personally I'd say hell no if someone wanted to try
it, that's like saying umm...I can drive a 4x4 really
well, lets see if I can drive this Ferrari like I do
the truck, or better yet, the reverse of that. If
you've got the skill you're stuck with it, I don't
care if it's much less than what you've got in another
skill, tough, learn to use that skill better so you
can improve it.

What's wrong with it, Derek?

Let's take your example. Are you SERIOUSLY trying to
tell me that someone with 4x4 skill 8 (which is
actually Car skill within the game, just like
"Ferrari" skill - but never mind that :) ) and Ferrari
skill 1 is NOT going to find it so much easier to
drive a Ferrari than someone who's only got Ferrari
skill 1 and nothing else? Think about it - with the
years of experience of driving that a skill of 8
represents, you're going to know a hell of a lot that
you can adapt across to a different kind of vehicle.
You WILL have certain difficulties, of course, but the
partial defaulting rule did account for that. I always
thought it was a good rule and I was surprised they
dropped it.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Wed May 15 22:10:02 2002
> What's wrong with it, Derek?
>
> Let's take your example. Are you SERIOUSLY trying to
> tell me that someone with 4x4 skill 8 (which is
> actually Car skill within the game, just like
> "Ferrari" skill - but never mind that :) ) and Ferrari
> skill 1 is NOT going to find it so much easier to
> drive a Ferrari than someone who's only got Ferrari
> skill 1 and nothing else? Think about it - with the
> years of experience of driving that a skill of 8
> represents, you're going to know a hell of a lot that
> you can adapt across to a different kind of vehicle.
> You WILL have certain difficulties, of course, but the
> partial defaulting rule did account for that. I always
> thought it was a good rule and I was surprised they
> dropped it.

What's wrong with it is this, how do you drive a 4x4? Pretty fearlessly
if you drive it well, respectfully but fearlessly, you shouldn't be
worried about going through dips and things like that, you're used to
the wider turning radius of a truck and the ways that it handles, a
Ferrari is a whole other world, #1 you sit very close to the ground so
dips are VERY bad, the turning is MUCH more precise, and the whole
difference in raw power completely changes the way you drive, now lets
look at the difference in the way that a shotgun and assault rifle are
used (which was the original example) A shotgun is made for area
coverage, most have something akin to a BB on the end of the barrel as
the sight, you put it in the middle of the target then pull the trigger,
since the rounds (unless you're using slugs) cover an area you're likely
to hit it as long as you've put the BB in the middle of the target or
lead it properly, now an assault rifle is always a single slug per round
and the difference in use is enough to show that you need a separate
skill for it and rifles in general (which I find questionable other than
the burst fire and semi auto firing modes)

Essentially from what I'm understanding is that you're saying that you'd
rather have the 2nd ed skill of firearms and then use the concentrations
of the separate weapons, which I could see but IF the character has a
skill in a weapon I wouldn't allow them to try to use a different skill
just because they were more skilled in that instead of the weapon
they're actually using, if you've got a AR skill of 6 and a SG skill of
1 and you're packing around a SG you better not even think I'm gonna let
you use your AR skill on it, now if you had an AR skill of 6 and NO SG
skill at all and picked up a SG I'd let you default to the AR skill
because it's a firearm and you have no practical knowledge of the
differences between how a shotgun and assault rifle work.....if you're
trained in a shotgun you'll use it like one, no matter how good you are
with an assault rifle
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Thu May 16 07:10:00 2002
>From: "Derek Hyde" <dhyde@*********.net>
<Snip>
>now lets
>look at the difference in the way that a shotgun and assault rifle are
>used (which was the original example) A shotgun is made for area
>coverage, most have something akin to a BB on the end of the barrel as
>the sight, you put it in the middle of the target then pull the >trigger,
>since the rounds (unless you're using slugs) cover an area you're >likely
>to hit it as long as you've put the BB in the middle of the target or
>lead it properly, now an assault rifle is always a single slug per >round
>and the difference in use is enough to show that you need a separate
>skill for it and rifles in general (which I find questionable other >than
>the burst fire and semi auto firing modes)

OK, let's look at a slightly different example; imagine this one if you
will, you are a street samurai, your weapon of choice is your custom made,
Oricalcum laced, monowire edged, Dikoted Katana, (edged weapons(Katana)
8(9)). you're jumped by a large street gang and after hacking several of
them into dogfood they manage to disarm you, you grab a handy peice of two
by four and start whaling away, unfortunately your clubs skill is only one;
if you didn't have any clubs skill you'd be able to default to Edged or
Katana (I think they're linked skills,)for a TN penalty but rolling eight or
nine dice plus a little combat pool. but you played little league so you
pick up the 2x4 like a baseball bat and get your ass kicked by one of their
weediest guys, Mr Clubs 2, rolling 4 dice per attack (2 skill, 2 combat
pool) (you're limited to 2 dice, 1 skill and 1 combat pool) now that doesn't
seem to work IMO.

I can't remember what the actual rule on Partial Defaulting so I can't give
you the "with" side of the story but...

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Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Thu May 16 09:50:00 2002
<snipt!(TM)>
> Essentially from what I'm understanding is that
you're saying that you'd rather have the 2nd ed skill
of firearms and then use the concentrations of the
separate weapons, which I could see but IF the
character has a skill in a weapon I wouldn't allow
them to try to use a different skill just because they
were more skilled in that instead of the weapon
they're actually using, if you've got a AR skill of 6
and a SG skill of 1 and you're packing around a SG you
better not even think I'm gonna let you use your AR
skill on it, now if you had an AR skill of 6 and NO SG
skill at all and picked up a SG I'd let you default to
the AR skill because it's a firearm and you have no
practical knowledge of the differences between how a
shotgun and assault rifle work.....if you're trained
in a shotgun you'll use it like one, no matter how
good you are with an assault rifle

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I AM saying is
this:

1. With any linked skills, there will be some basics
that are similar or the same, which would make it
easier for someone who knows one skill to use other,
linked skills, than for someone who doesn't know ANY
of the linked skills to use them. That's why you CAN
default to linked skills in the first place.

2. The vanilla SR skill rules are not realistic in how
they treat skills. Why? Well, take someone with
Shotguns 8, defaulting to Assault Rifles, for which
they have no skill. They've got a +2 penalty, sure,
but they're still rolling 8 dice, and they can put in
up to 4 combat pool dice - that's not too shabby at
all. Say, though, they then learn Assault Rifles 1. In
that instant they can no longer default and they only
roll 1 die, or 2 with combat pool. How realistic is
that? They've started learning to use the weapon and
most of the time, they'll be doing worse with it than
when they DIDN'T know the skill. Partial defaulting
solves that little problem there - and you have to
remember, it's not saying that Shotguns and Assault
Rifles are similar in use. What it IS saying is that
if you've used a firearm before, you have certain base
knowledge and training that you can make use of while
firing this other weapon. A highly skilled shotgunner
is going to have an easier time picking up the skills
involved in using an assault rifle than a firearm
virgin, because they've done it before.

But never mind. It's a moot point, and I'm not going
to convince you, am I, Derek? Haven't lost that hard
head of yours while I've been away. ;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

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If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Thu May 16 10:00:01 2002
<snipt!(TM)>
> (2 skill, 2 combat pool) (you're limited to 2 dice,
1 skill and 1 combat pool) now that doesn't seem to
work IMO.
>
> I can't remember what the actual rule on Partial
Defaulting so I can't give you the "with" side of the
story but...

Add the two skills - the relevant one and the
defaulting one (or the applicable attribute if
defaulting to that). Divide by 2 and round down.
That's your skill. To find the target number modifier,
add 2 for each dot between the two skills on the skill
web (remember, this is SRII) and divide by two
(alternately, you could just add up the number of dots
to get the same result :) ). There were never any
limits on pool dice for defaulting, either, being
SRII.

What I would do to use this in SR3 is to only allow
defaulting between linked skills (by the skill web in
SRII, you could theoretically default to almost ANY
skill, although your target numbers could get
phenomenally high) and the linked attribute. You would
generate your "skill" value in the same manner - add
the two skills (or the skill and attribute), divide by
2 and round down. Pool usage would depend on what
you're using, as per the regular defaulting rules -
partially default to another skill and you can use up
to half the "skill" value in pool dice. Partially
default to an attribute and you can't use any pool.
The target number modifiers would again be taken from
the regular defaulting rules, but halved - so a +1 for
defaulting to a skill, or +2 for defaulting to an attribute.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

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Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Thu May 16 10:15:01 2002
>From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
>What I would do to use this in SR3 is to only allow
>defaulting between linked skills (by the skill web in
>SRII, you could theoretically default to almost ANY
>skill, although your target numbers could get
>phenomenally high) and the linked attribute. You would
>generate your "skill" value in the same manner - add
>the two skills (or the skill and attribute), divide by
>2 and round down. Pool usage would depend on what
>you're using, as per the regular defaulting rules -
>partially default to another skill and you can use up
>to half the "skill" value in pool dice. Partially
>default to an attribute and you can't use any pool.
>The target number modifiers would again be taken from
>the regular defaulting rules, but halved - so a +1 for
>defaulting to a skill, or +2 for defaulting to an attribute.

Or alternatively use Gurth's Plastic Warriors SR3 Skill Web... I wonder if
that's where I saw the rule? Hmmm.

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Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Thu May 16 10:35:01 2002
> OK, let's look at a slightly different example; imagine this one if
you
> will, you are a street samurai, your weapon of choice is your custom
made,
> Oricalcum laced, monowire edged, Dikoted Katana, (edged
weapons(Katana)
> 8(9)). you're jumped by a large street gang and after hacking several
of
> them into dogfood they manage to disarm you, you grab a handy peice of
two
> by four and start whaling away, unfortunately your clubs skill is only
> one;
> if you didn't have any clubs skill you'd be able to default to Edged
or
> Katana (I think they're linked skills,)for a TN penalty but rolling
eight
> or
> nine dice plus a little combat pool. but you played little league so
you
> pick up the 2x4 like a baseball bat and get your ass kicked by one of
> their
> weediest guys, Mr Clubs 2, rolling 4 dice per attack (2 skill, 2
combat
> pool) (you're limited to 2 dice, 1 skill and 1 combat pool) now that
> doesn't
> seem to work IMO.

That's EXACTLY how I'd handle it because of the differences in the way a
katana and a club would be used, first off he's going to have an edged
weapons(katana) skill of 8/10 or 7/9 the way I deal with it, the other
thing to keep in mind is that a 2x4 isn't a club, it's not designed as
one, I'd probably let him use his strength alone on that one, make that
2x4 a ballbat and we're talking, a club is just swung, a katana does the
majority of it's effective damage by slicing, just like you use a knife
to cut a steak, it's not like a longsword or things like that which were
made to be used to swing and cut, it was meant to slash, for katanas to
be used effectively you pull their blade lengthwise (either by pushing
or pulling) as you make your attack so that you slice the opponent, not
just swinging it at them and hitting them, that's the reason in whole
that I wouldn't let him partially default to the katana, now, the edged
weapons, if he had some form of training (because I'm big on character
backgrounds) in something other than his katana and maybe a knife I
COULD persuade to let him use it but I really doubt it. The reasoning
behind this is the fact that the want to use other skills instead of the
actual skill is very munchkinish to me, if he were a roleplayer he'd
find a way to be creative about it and deal with what he's got. Also if
you've ever tried, a chunk of board is VERY unlike any sword you could
ever get your hands on, remember swords are supposed to be close to
evenly balanced, boards aren't.....
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Thu May 16 10:40:01 2002
> A highly skilled shotgunner
> is going to have an easier time picking up the skills
> involved in using an assault rifle than a firearm
> virgin, because they've done it before.

This is where my pain in the ass kicks in again, umm....page 98-99 of
SR3 would imply that with a skill of 1 someone handed him the assault
rifle and said "here's the trigger, this is the clip, this is how you
change the clip, this is how you chamber the round, put these three
things in a straight line under what you want to hit and then pull the
trigger"

Realistically if someone had another weapons skill when they wanted to
pick up another gun skill I'd let them have levels one and two for free
and just make them pay the 6 karma for skill of 3

>
> But never mind. It's a moot point, and I'm not going
> to convince you, am I, Derek? Haven't lost that hard
> head of yours while I've been away. ;)
>
Hard head, of course not, just tougher logic. Oh yeah, maybe this is
where I should have pointed out that I skill cap things at 10 and if
someone had a skill of anything beyond 6 they've been playing for a
while, I make them stick to the skills EXACTLY as they're described on
98-99 of the main book, so if this changes things in the argument a
little I could accept that. I overall have problems with people getting
THAT good and then wanting to be able to do things and not just accept
the standard penalties (I'm reminded of one of my gamers who argued my
houserules with the response of "the book says this though" and then
when he wanted to do something that the book explicitly said something
else his response was "well but the rules in the book are just a
guideline") See I'm not trying to be hard headed, just trying to curb
powergaming and munchkinism.

Derek
*wielding the holy bat of munchkin smiting*
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Thu May 16 11:05:01 2002
>From: "Derek Hyde" <dhyde@*********.net>
<Snip>
>the other
>thing to keep in mind is that a 2x4 isn't a club, it's not designed as
>one, I'd probably let him use his strength alone on that one,

A 2x4 is a club according to the rules and any definition of club I've ever
heard.

<Snip>
>you've ever tried, a chunk of board is VERY unlike any sword you could
>ever get your hands on, remember swords are supposed to be close to
>evenly balanced, boards aren't.....

But of you take a 2x4 of a reasonable length by one end and you have an
object which can be used in much the same way as a sword, it will not be as
effective (which is why you have defaulting penalties and pool dice
restrictions) You can place it in any position in your three circles of
defence and it will at least slow an attack even if it doesn't stop it. You
still maintain your combat awareness, your footwork won't change... Yes
you'll strike as if you're using a sharp blade a bit as you go through
maneuvers you know with the sword.

Consider a Karate black belt, knowing how to punch or kick is only a small
part of what he knows, he has a combat focus which allows him to keep an eye
on a lot, he knows how to intimidate his opponent, he knows how to keep his
balance and how to move quickly and where to move to, put a rapier in his
hand and even if all he knows about swordplay is "the pointy end goes into
the other man"* he still has these things and can adapt his Karate to take
into account the sharp extension to his arm, he won't match someone who has
learned to fence to the same sort of level as his karate but he will have an
advantage over most people given ten minutes instruction.

*The mask of Zorro

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Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Thu May 16 12:50:00 2002
>From: "Derek Hyde" <dhyde@*********.net>
<Snip>
>>the other
>>thing to keep in mind is that a 2x4 isn't a club, it's not designed as
>>one, I'd probably let him use his strength alone on that one,

>A 2x4 is a club according to the rules and any definition of club I've ever

>heard.

<Snip>
>>you've ever tried, a chunk of board is VERY unlike any sword you could
>>ever get your hands on, remember swords are supposed to be close to
>>evenly balanced, boards aren't.....

>But of you take a 2x4 of a reasonable length by one end and you have an
>object which can be used in much the same way as a sword, it will not be as

>effective (which is why you have defaulting penalties and pool dice
>restrictions) You can place it in any position in your three circles of
>defence and it will at least slow an attack even if it doesn't stop it. You

>still maintain your combat awareness, your footwork won't change... Yes
>you'll strike as if you're using a sharp blade a bit as you go through
>maneuvers you know with the sword.

How would a Bokken (Wooden training katana) be filed under your logic Derek?
Would that
be a club and I would have to default to strength or would I be able to use
my sword skill (considering it's shape and weight)?

Granted a bokken is not that similar to a 2x4, but personally I use any club
I get my hands on the same way I handle a sword (yeah it's a little akward).
Think realisticly here. If someone's been training for 3-4 years on how to
do something, if they try something similar they go with what they know, the
training. (Don't know if that came out right.)

For what it's worth, we are playing a game though, so utimately it's up to
the GM.

EMFN John Valeu
-AKA- TimeKeeper
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Thu May 16 13:30:01 2002
According to Derek Hyde, on Thu, 16 May 2002 the word on the street was...

> That's EXACTLY how I'd handle it because of the differences in the way a
> katana and a club would be used

So how would you treat a wooden practice sword? (And don't say "Nobody
would use one in combat anyway, so why bother?" :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Begint eer ge bezint.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Thu May 16 13:40:01 2002
<snipt it all>
ok this is apparently what it's come down to, we're all squabbling
because it's a difference in the way we each look at things, since I'm
apparently in the minority and essentially taking the standpoint on my
views of it because I'm severely anti-munchkin I'll concede the argument
and be silent. IF we want to keep the debate going and at least one
person can see where I'm coming from then maybe I'll consider trying to
get my point across a little better but since it seems to be a 3 person
argument and it's 2 on 1 as of now I'll just let it drop.

Derek
*Gesturing threateningly with the Holy Bat of Munchkin Smiting as it
flops around trying to free it's wing*

(see I'm not thick headed, just hate to lose arguments)
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Thu May 16 15:15:01 2002
> How would a Bokken (Wooden training katana) be filed under your logic
> Derek?

Very simply, what is it? It's a practice what? A practice "sword",
therefore uses edged weapons because it's still quite capable of cutting
if swung with enough force, they're also carved in a manner to give them
a similar weight distribution to that of a real katana, a 2x4 however is
not used in the same manner as a katana, and is in no way similar so
there should be absolutely NO correlation or crossing of the skills!




> Think realistically here. If someone's been training for 3-4 years on
how
> to do something, if they try something similar they go with what they
> know, the training. (Don't know if that came out right.)

Umm....I am thinking realistically, there's absolutely no connection
between a board that's being utilized as an improvised weapon and a
katana, and while there is a Minor connection between an assault rifle
and a shotgun they're still not alike enough to use the same skill.

It all boils down to the following, you're free to do in your game what
you choose and I won't tell you that you're wrong for choosing the way
you do, just as you have no place to tell me that I'm wrong in my game.
You're the GM of your game so you're the one that's right in that
situation however in my game the role is mine and my word is the final
say and considered to be right. We've all gone over this before and I'm
really tired of having to defend this simplistic thought that most
gamers do agree with. The GM is the final decision no matter who says
what so it's his decision that matters.

Period.
Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Thu May 16 15:50:03 2002
>> How would a Bokken (Wooden training katana) be filed under your logic
>> Derek?

>Very simply, what is it? It's a practice what? A practice "sword",
>therefore uses edged weapons because it's still quite capable of cutting
>if swung with enough force, they're also carved in a manner to give them
>a similar weight distribution to that of a real katana, a 2x4 however is
>not used in the same manner as a katana, and is in no way similar so
>there should be absolutely NO correlation or crossing of the skills!

A blunt wooden weapon can cut???? Have you actually seen a bokken?


>> Think realistically here. If someone's been training for 3-4 years on
>>how
>> to do something, if they try something similar they go with what they
>> know, the training. (Don't know if that came out right.)

>Umm....I am thinking realistically, there's absolutely no connection
>between a board that's being utilized as an improvised weapon and a
>katana, and while there is a Minor connection between an assault rifle
>and a shotgun they're still not alike enough to use the same skill.

Between the board and katana thing... You never learned to use a weapon did
you?
I still have trouble during jujitsu practice due to my 4 years of wrestling.
During a combat situation, you go with what your body is first trained to
do.

EMFN John Valeu
-AKA- TimeKeeper
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Thu May 16 17:30:01 2002
<Admin>

Gentlemen and Ladies,

This discussion is starting to get a little tense. Please remember that
the members of ShadowRN are a diverse bunch, and as such have diverse opinions.

Please keep in mind that ShadowRN celebrates this diversity, providing a
forum in which it's members can share different opinions, ideas,
viewpoints, and ideologies.

An opposing view is a gift, not an obstacle.

ShadowRN is also a forum which provides it's members to learn from each
other. None of us knows everything, but all of us combine to know a little
of something.

Thank you.

P.S. This Admin is going through a Taoist phase in his life, so you'll all
just have to suffer from the occasional generalized meaningful/meaningless
statement ;)

</Admin>

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
http://www.graht.com
--
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Thu May 16 18:25:01 2002
> A blunt wooden weapon can cut???? Have you actually seen a bokken?

Perhaps not a bokken, I'm thinking of the actual wooden katanas


> >Umm....I am thinking realistically, there's absolutely no connection
> >between a board that's being utilized as an improvised weapon and a
> >katana, and while there is a Minor connection between an assault
rifle
> >and a shotgun they're still not alike enough to use the same skill.
>
> Between the board and katana thing... You never learned to use a
weapon
> did
> you?
> I still have trouble during jujitsu practice due to my 4 years of
> wrestling.
> During a combat situation, you go with what your body is first trained
to
> do.

Umm....lets see.....4 years in the army, been hunting all my life, nope
I don't know how to use any weapons, not to mention the fact that I've
participated in a few renaissance faires in swordfighting and jousting
"competitions" granted the swordfighting is all choreographed so that no
one gets hurt but still it's more than no knowledge at all. You're
right your body will act with what it's trained to do until you realize
that you're screwing up worse than if you weren't using something as a
weapon at all.

You're right I've got negligible martial arts knowledge so I can't
really stand a whole lot of argument on that other than the way I was
taught to use a katana vs. the way I was taught to use English style
blades. The original argument was ignoring a shotgun skill of 1 to
partially default to an assault rifles skill of 8, I HAVE got more than
enough experience to say that it's complete and utter bullshit and that
if someone's trying it than it's because they're trying to be a munchkin
and more worried about getting the best rolls than actually roleplaying
the event, you forget about one of the better points of a shotgun, even
if you suck and don't do a lot of damage there's still a LOT of
knockdown power there that doesn't exist with an assault rifle unless
it's in full auto.
Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Thu May 16 21:40:01 2002
>> A blunt wooden weapon can cut???? Have you actually seen a bokken?

>Perhaps not a bokken, I'm thinking of the actual wooden katanas

THAT IS A BOKKEN!!!! Wait... is the sword you're thinking of made of
Bamboo?
That's called a Shinai, or Kendo stick. Yes, they can shread flesh due to
their design.
A Bokken is soild and made of oak, hickery, ash, cherry, or other stronge
wood.

<Snipt>
>Umm....lets see.....4 years in the army, been hunting all my life, nope
>I don't know how to use any weapons, not to mention the fact that I've
>participated in a few renaissance faires in swordfighting and jousting
>"competitions" granted the swordfighting is all choreographed so that no
>one gets hurt but still it's more than no knowledge at all. You're
>right your body will act with what it's trained to do until you realize
>that you're screwing up worse than if you weren't using something as a
>weapon at all.
<Snipt>

Right... Ok, we got way off topic here. What I practice isn't
choreographed,
but freeform. About as close to real fighting as one can get. Ok, we're
both right and we're both wrong. And if my body's keeping me alive, I'm not
complaining if it's screwing up while performing a move in combat or not.

EMFN John Valeu
-AKA- TimeKeeper
Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Thu May 16 22:35:00 2002
> THAT IS A BOKKEN!!!! Wait... is the sword you're thinking of made of
> Bamboo?
> That's called a Shinai, or Kendo stick. Yes, they can shread flesh
due to
> their design.
> A Bokken is soild and made of oak, hickery, ash, cherry, or other
stronge
> wood.

Umm.....if my history serves me correctly Musashi (who was the greatest
samurai ever) carried a pair of wooden katanas, and was also the most
deadly samurai ever, therefore one could quite easily assume that wooden
katanas can cut if used properly
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (nonie mouse)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Fri May 17 02:45:01 2002
>From: "Derek Hyde" <dhyde@*********.net>
>Reply-To: shadowrn@*********.com
>To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
>Subject: RE: Rules query
>Date: Thu, 16 May 2002 21:33:32 -0500
>
> > THAT IS A BOKKEN!!!! Wait... is the sword you're thinking of made of
> > Bamboo?
> > That's called a Shinai, or Kendo stick. Yes, they can shread flesh
>due to
> > their design.
> > A Bokken is soild and made of oak, hickery, ash, cherry, or other
>stronge
> > wood.
>
>Umm.....if my history serves me correctly Musashi (who was the greatest
>samurai ever) carried a pair of wooden katanas, and was also the most
>deadly samurai ever, therefore one could quite easily assume that wooden
>katanas can cut if used properly
>
>old claymores were never sharpened they were used to crush their
>opposition. one can assume that these wooden kantanas used with skill could
>do the same if not "cut"


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Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Fri May 17 09:50:01 2002
>> THAT IS A BOKKEN!!!! Wait... is the sword you're thinking of made of
>> Bamboo?
>> That's called a Shinai, or Kendo stick. Yes, they can shread flesh
>>due to
>> their design.
>> A Bokken is soild and made of oak, hickery, ash, cherry, or other
>>stronge
>> wood.

>Umm.....if my history serves me correctly Musashi (who was the greatest
>samurai ever) carried a pair of wooden katanas, and was also the most
>deadly samurai ever, therefore one could quite easily assume that wooden
>katanas can cut if used properly

(One little event gets turned into a legend...)
Musashi carried a standard Daisho. But after he stopped dualing, some still
challenged him. Once he fashioned a bokken from an oar. He still won the
dual, even with the wooden sword. In fact he never lost a dual.

EMFN John Valeu
-AKA- TimeKeeper
Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Fri May 17 10:35:00 2002
"Lone Eagle"

>Consider a Karate black belt, knowing how to punch or kick is only a >small
>part of what he knows, he has a combat focus which allows him to >keep an
>eye on a lot, he knows how to intimidate his opponent, he >knows how to
>keep his balance and how to move quickly and where to >move to, put a
>rapier in his hand and even if all he knows about >swordplay is "the pointy
>end goes into the other man"* he still has >these things and can adapt his
>Karate to take into account the sharp >extension to his arm, he won't match
>someone who has learned to fence >to the same sort of level as his karate
>but he will have an advantage >over most people given ten minutes
>instruction.

>>>DING!<<< Give the man a prize! :D

I have been an avid practicioner of the martial arts for 12 years, and I can
safely say that the nail has been struck squarely on the head with this
post. In. Real. Life.

But SR is abstract. The skill system, the attributes, and the mechanics are
all absract. Trust me when I say that unarmed combat between two characters
in SR is very unlike unarmed combat in real life. And in such an abstract
system, you will invariably get stuck with munchkins who want to be god on
skates in any situation. They will manipulate the abstract rules system to
gain every possible advantage, mathematically. I can completely empathize
with Derek on this particular point. Artificial constraints are necessary
when the players refuse to constrain themselves.

In reality, I can drive just about any vehicle, by applying what I know
about vehicles I've already driven. I can pick up a variety of weapons and
use them well based on the weapons I already know. I can wrestle better
because I know judo. The list is endless. But, this does not translate
well to SR.

This is my own house rule for defaulting. I think it better reflects what
is really going on when you default from one skill to another.

1. All defaulting is to the linked Attribute...taking into account the
number of dots passed through for TN modification.

2. Pool dice are limited by the skill of the players choice, provided that
skill lies between the Attribute and the skill they are defaulting from.

So...Jack the Sammie is facing a bunch of gangers when his trusty sword is
shattered. He grabs a club, so as to eliminate any difference in reach
between himself and his opponents. Jack had his Katana skill at a 7, while
his club skill is 0. He defaults to an Attribute, relying on raw potential.
The Attribute (I am not sure which one is linked to Armed Combat in SR3)
happens to be a 5. He is rolling 5 dice. Assuming he passed though 2 dots
between the Attribute and the Skill, his TN are raised from 4 to 8. He can
use combat pool dice up to 7 (his katana skill). Here is why.

Combat pool is a factor of awareness, speed, and experience (looking at the
attributes involved). Use of combat pool implies an ability to place
oneself in the optimal stance, position, or location on a battlefield. It
implies that you react to incoming attacks better (boosting damage
resistance), and are better able to utilize your raw potential in a fight.
A person can have all the skill in the world and get beated by someone who
is just simply stronger, faster, and smarter. It happens often. A katana
skill of 7 represents thousands of hours of training with that blade. That
training included footwork, control, power, and speed. That training
focused on awareness as much as it did on the proper way to hold the sword.
It focused on disciplined reflexes as much as it did on various blocks or
attacks. Much of that training applies to -any- combat, armed or unarmed,
sword or stick. Thus, the combat pool, a composite of your trained mind and
body, is not limited by your lack of skill with a club.

Now, if Jack later learns to use a club, and then finds himslef once again
forced to use a club rather than a katana, the situation changes. Now he
has to use his club skill of, let's say 2. However, he can still use up to
7 combat pool dice, by declaring that he is defaulting to the Attribute and
taking a TN penalty. In this case, I add a +1 per dot rather than a +2. He
is trying to use a combination of raw potential, old training, and a new
skill. A tricky propasition, but doable. My reasoning for not allowing
Jack to abandon his club training entirely is that it is almost impossible
for the human mind to do. Forgetting how to use a club when you are holding
a club is exceedingly difficult. Your conscious mind will end up at war
with your reflexes. Any trained fighter will tell you that this suicidal.
The two work together, or one has to shut up. The conscious mind. So Jack
has to use the club skill, but can tap his katana training with a little
effort.

And Derek, a last note to control those munchkins. Only let them raise
skills they used in the last few sessions, period. And make them justify
attribute increases somehow. I usually require that they take downtime in
months equal to the new attribute number they want, working on that area of
themself. All the while eating away their cash reserves because they are
not working. Since I make the players take downtime together, everyone has
to agree before anyone can take six months off from running. ;)

Korishinzo
--cheering for the person with the anti-munchkin club
--are you defaulting to anything? ;P

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Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Fri May 17 11:20:01 2002
> So...Jack the Sammie is facing a bunch of gangers when his trusty
sword is
> shattered. He grabs a club, so as to eliminate any difference in
reach
> between himself and his opponents. Jack had his Katana skill at a 7,
> while
> his club skill is 0. He defaults to an Attribute, relying on raw
> potential.

Ok whoa stop!!!!!!! The whole point isn't full defaulting but rather a
partial default and the question wasn't with no skill, it was with the
club (actually shotgun) skill being 7 points less than the katana
(actually assault rifle) THAT'S where my problem with the thing is, not
in defaulting rules but the fact that you're trying to get away with
using the skill for the higher weapon type as a default even though you
have an actual skill in the weapon that you're trying to default with!
Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Fri May 17 18:00:02 2002
On Thu, 16 May 2002 21:33:32 -0500
"Derek Hyde" <dhyde@*********.net> wrote:

> > THAT IS A BOKKEN!!!! Wait... is the sword you're thinking of made of
> > Bamboo?
> > That's called a Shinai, or Kendo stick. Yes, they can shread flesh
> due to
> > their design.
> > A Bokken is soild and made of oak, hickery, ash, cherry, or other
> stronge
> > wood.
>
> Umm.....if my history serves me correctly Musashi (who was the greatest
> samurai ever) carried a pair of wooden katanas, and was also the most
> deadly samurai ever, therefore one could quite easily assume that wooden
> katanas can cut if used properly

No... He carried a real katana and a real wakizashi, but vowed to only
use wooden swords when he defeated a lot of people attacking him using
only a pair of wooden oars.

A wooden sword can still kill people, but not by cutting them. You break
their bones and bash their skulls, even if you're Miyamoto Musashi :).


--
Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.f2s.com
Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Sat May 18 13:15:01 2002
"Derek Hyde"

> > So...Jack the Sammie is facing a bunch of gangers when his trusty
> > sword is shattered. He grabs a club, so as to eliminate any > >
>difference in reach between himself and his opponents. Jack had > > his
>Katana skill at a 7, while his club skill is 0. He defaults to > > an
>Attribute, relying on raw potential.

>Ok whoa stop!!!!!!! The whole point isn't full defaulting but rather a
>partial default and the question wasn't with no skill, it was with the
>club (actually shotgun) skill being 7 points less than the katana
>(actually assault rifle) THAT'S where my problem with the thing is, not
>in defaulting rules but the fact that you're trying to get away with
>using the skill for the higher weapon type as a default even though you
>have an actual skill in the weapon that you're trying to default with!

*sigh* Calm down for a second please, and read my whole post. I was
publishing a house rule of mine and therefore included -all- of my house
rule for the sake of brevity. The salient part of my rule for you is
reposted here:

>>>>>>Now, if Jack later learns to use a club, and then finds himslef
>once
>>>>>>again forced to use a club rather than a katana, the situation
>>>>>> >changes. Now he has to use his club skill of, let's say 2.
>>>>>>However, >he can still use up to 7 combat pool dice, by
declaring that
>>>>>>he is >defaulting to the Attribute and taking a TN penalty. In
this
>>>>>>case, I >add a +1 per dot rather than a +2. He is trying to
use a
>>>>>>combination >of raw potential, old training, and a new skill.
A
>>>>>>tricky >propasition, but doable. My reasoning for not allowing
Jack
>>>>>>to >abandon his club training entirely is that it is almost
>>>>>>impossible
>for the human mind to do. Forgetting how to use a club when you are
> >holding a club is exceedingly difficult. Your conscious mind will end
> >up at war with your reflexes. Any trained fighter will tell you that
> >this suicidal. The two work together, or one has to shut up. The
> >conscious mind. So Jack has to use the club skill, but can tap his
> >katana training with a little effort.<<<<<<<<

You are starting to get pretty testy in this thread Derek. Please don't.
If everyone agreed, life would be boring. :) If you had read my whole
post, rather than jumping on it, you would realize that I am agreeing with
you, at least in part. So...deep breath...read it again. :)

Korishinzo
--notice I was cheering for the anti-munchkin bat ;P



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Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Sat May 18 14:00:01 2002
> >>>>>>Now, if Jack later learns to use a club, and then finds
himslef
> >once
> >>>>>>again forced to use a club rather than a katana, the
situation
> >>>>>> >changes. Now he has to use his club skill of, let's say
2.
> >>>>>>However, >he can still use up to 7 combat pool dice, by
declaring
> that
> >>>>>>he is >defaulting to the Attribute and taking a TN
penalty. In
this
> >>>>>>case, I >add a +1 per dot rather than a +2. He is trying
to use
a
> >>>>>>combination >of raw potential, old training, and a new
skill. A
> >>>>>>tricky >propasition, but doable. My reasoning for not
allowing
Jack
> >>>>>>to >abandon his club training entirely is that it is
almost
> >>>>>>impossible
> >for the human mind to do. Forgetting how to use a club when you are
> > >holding a club is exceedingly difficult. Your conscious mind will
end
> > >up at war with your reflexes. Any trained fighter will tell you
that
> > >this suicidal. The two work together, or one has to shut up. The
> > >conscious mind. So Jack has to use the club skill, but can tap his
> > >katana training with a little effort.<<<<<<<<

Umm....is this a 2nd ed houserule? Anyway I think the end is what's hit
it on the head with what I'm trying to say, you can't just ignore the
fact that you have skill with something, Also if you want to look at it
from the number of dice standpoint try this, if he's using his katana
with skill of 6 and has a combat pool of 6 he can roll a max of 12 dice
on his attack with an unadjusted TN, if he drops it and picks up a ball
bat that the gangers were using (with his clubs skill of 1) he can
either roll 7 dice max with an unadjusted TN or by the argued partial
default he can drop to his katana skill and then take the +1 TN for the
partial default and then get to roll 9 dice. Now from the standpoint
that it's a melee fight I'd only give him a TN4 without defaulting so 7
dice with a TN4 should result pretty good success, 9 dice with the TN5
would be more difficult to come away with more successes simply because
it's a higher TN. Stepping aside from my view on this being extremely
munchkin in doing it look at it this way. If I can get a Katana skill
of 8, a Pistol Skill of 8, and an athletics skill of 6 I don't need any
other weapons skills I can use any melee weapon I want, I can use any
gun I want as long as it's not considered a heavy weapon or a launch
weapon and I can use my athletics to whip grenades at people like
they're baseballs or footballs. See the point here? If the player wants
to use different weapons they need the different skills, as it stands I
don't allow defaulting to other skills at all, I will allow you to
supplement your rolls with other skills even if you're defaulting, you
may know enough about how to accomplish something similar to what you're
trying to do but it's not what you want to do so I'll let you borrow a
couple dice from it.

Again as was pointed out yes I am getting pretty frustrated with this
thread, it's quite akin to the rules arguing that was occurring in my
group. I realize that on the list I can't just say "shut the hell up
this is how it is" and expect people to listen however it's beginning to
work in my group as they've seen how their actions are effecting the
game as a whole. As I've said again and again I'm VERY anti munchkin
and not likely at all to just kinda go well that could be if it's
something that strikes me as such, most of my gamers have also looked at
this thread and agree with me in the respect that it makes sense to NOT
allow the partial defaulting at all.

Here's the other thing that you weren't including by the way,
Samurai Bob is cruising down the alley when the "Bloody Rags" set their
ambush, he draws his pistol and pops off the one that came out towards
the back of the alley and then goes hand to hand with the one closest
that's got a baseball bat in her hands, using his pistol as a melee
weapon he whips her wrist as she swings, quite effectively disarming her
then puts her down with a shot to the head, as it was only a small two
shot derringer he drops it and grabs the bat all the while wishing he'd
brought his katana with him to this stupid meet. Swinging wildly the
other gangers start forcing him to defend himself quickly and he slowly
works his way towards the back of the alley where someone's apparently
waiting for their shot at him as they're tossing the katana in their
hands back and forth from hand to hand. Seeing his opportunity he pulls
his bootknife and throws it at the guy with the sword, catching him off
guard. The guy drops the sword and Bob drops the bat and makes a run
for the blade, getting pelted by the gangers that he was holding off
with the bat since he's now completely unarmed. He gets ahold of the
sword and grabs the guy with the knife in him and makes sure he'd dead
before retrieving his knife. He waits patiently for the gangers to
attack as now he's feeling quite confident that the numbers are in his
favor since it's now only 4 to 1 and he's got his weapon of choice. He
quickly dispatches the remaining gangers and then stashes the sword and
bat that he'd used, picks up his pistol, and then continues on his way.


Now for game terms
Bob whips out a Hold Out Pistol (with skill of 5) and takes out two
people, grabs a bat for which he has no clubs skill and defaults to
strength but since he played baseball when he was younger adds a couple
dice from his athletics skill because he's vaguely familiar with at
least one effective way to use the bat. Pulls a knife and launches it
with his Thrown Weapons skill of 6, checks to make sure the guy's dead
with a biotech skill of 4 and then picks up the katana and proceeds to
kick ass with his katana skill of 8. He then uses his lonestar tactics
skill to decide where they wouldn't look for the murder weapons that've
got his prints on them and hides them and runs for home.

The penalty for defaulting to an attribute is a +4 so he's not going to
hit very often but he's still going to try.

Oh yes....if you'd look at page 85 of SR3 you'll see that the penalty
for defaulting from skill to skill is a +2, defaulting from skill to
specialization (i.e. clubs to katana) is +3, and skill to attribute is
+4.

It also says that defaulting isn't allowed at all when the TN is 8 or
more because it's not possible for the person to do it untrained.


>
> You are starting to get pretty testy in this thread Derek. Please
don't.
> If everyone agreed, life would be boring. :) If you had read my
whole
> post, rather than jumping on it, you would realize that I am agreeing
with
> you, at least in part. So...deep breath...read it again. :)
>
> Korishinzo
> --notice I was cheering for the anti-munchkin bat ;P
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
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>
>
Message no. 29
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Mon May 20 02:15:01 2002
>Also if you want to look at it
>from the number of dice standpoint try this, if he's using his katana
>with skill of 6 and has a combat pool of 6 he can roll a max of 12 dice
>on his attack with an unadjusted TN, if he drops it and picks up a ball
>bat that the gangers were using (with his clubs skill of 1) he can
>either roll 7 dice max with an unadjusted TN or by the argued partial
>default he can drop to his katana skill and then take the +1 TN for the
>partial default and then get to roll 9 dice. Now from the standpoint
>that it's a melee fight I'd only give him a TN4 without defaulting so 7
>dice with a TN4 should result pretty good success, 9 dice with the TN5
>would be more difficult to come away with more successes simply because
>it's a higher TN.

If he has a skill of one then he can only use one dice from his combat pool>
you can only use as much combat pool equal to the skill, and thats it. So
its 2 dice at TN 4, not 7.

>I will allow you to
>supplement your rolls with other skills even if you're defaulting, you
>may know enough about how to accomplish something similar to what you're
>trying to do but it's not what you want to do so I'll let you borrow a
>couple dice from it.

How many dice can they use? Half? A quarter? cos if it "a couple" then they
only need a skill of two to get a benifit, and having that skill higher
gives you nothing extra.

--
"No grand idea was ever born in a conference, but alot of foolish ideas have
died there."
F. Scott Fitzgerald


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Message no. 30
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Mon May 20 04:35:01 2002
> If he has a skill of one then he can only use one dice from his combat
> pool>
> you can only use as much combat pool equal to the skill, and thats it.
So
> its 2 dice at TN 4, not 7.

This is even as a partial default?

>
> >I will allow you to
> >supplement your rolls with other skills even if you're defaulting,
you
> >may know enough about how to accomplish something similar to what
you're
> >trying to do but it's not what you want to do so I'll let you borrow
a
> >couple dice from it.
>
> How many dice can they use? Half? A quarter? cos if it "a couple" then
> they
> only need a skill of two to get a benifit, and having that skill
higher
> gives you nothing extra.

Depends on how skilled they are, usually half but not to exceed the
skill being used, (in the event of supplementing existing skills) in the
event of defaulting I give them half.
Message no. 31
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: Rules query
Date: Mon May 20 05:00:01 2002
> > If he has a skill of one then he can only use one dice from his combat
> > pool>
> > you can only use as much combat pool equal to the skill, and thats it.
>So
> > its 2 dice at TN 4, not 7.
>
>This is even as a partial default?

This is for all pools.
I personally do not use Partial Default rules, but will allow a player to
default to another skill rather than use a low level skill (using Pistols 8
with +2TN rather than SMG 1 at normal)

--
"No grand idea was ever born in a conference, but alot of foolish ideas have
died there."
F. Scott Fitzgerald


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Thwap!