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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Pepe Barbe)
Subject: Rules Question
Date: Wed Jul 31 03:00:01 2002
Hi,

I have a question: Do you think the Blind Fight Power can be used with
Blind Fight Maneuver of Martial Arts?

Thanks,
Pepe
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Rules Question
Date: Wed Jul 31 20:45:01 2002
Pepe Barbe writes:

> I have a question: Do you think the Blind Fight Power can be used with
> Blind Fight Maneuver of Martial Arts?

I've always allowed them to be. I figure that if the character wants to pay
for both, then they'll be better at fighting in the dark. Each one uses a
different method to improve the individuals capabilities in poor or no light,
so I don't see why they shouldn't work together. The adept ability uses a
"6th sense" sort of mechanism to reduce the penalty from +8 to +4 for full
darkness or blind fire. The unarmed combat maneuver reduces any light
penalty by 2 in unarmed combat by training the person to function using
other senses.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Pepe Barbe)
Subject: Rules Question
Date: Thu Aug 1 02:15:00 2002
At 07:46 PM 31/07/2002, Damion Milliken wrote:
> > I have a question: Do you think the Blind Fight Power can be used with
> > Blind Fight Maneuver of Martial Arts?
>
>I've always allowed them to be. I figure that if the character wants to pay
(snip)
>other senses.


Thanks, now another question. Should increases in attributes made at
character creation with Adept Powers count towards cost of linked Skills?

Pepe
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Burning Avatar)
Subject: Rules Question
Date: Thu Aug 1 04:15:01 2002
On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 23:52:40 -0500
Pepe Barbe <elven@******.com> wrote:

> Thanks, now another question. Should increases in attributes made at
> character creation with Adept Powers count towards cost of linked
> Skills?

I would say no, because ATB you first choose the attributes, then the
skills and somewhen later the magical stuff...

> Pepe


- Burning Avatar

--

Burning Avatars Data Haven
http://home.t-online.de/home/tobias.d/shadowrun

PGP User ID: 0x825CE007
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Rules Question
Date: Thu Aug 1 12:10:02 2002
On Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:02:53 +0200
Tobias.D@********.de (Burning Avatar) wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Jul 2002 23:52:40 -0500
> Pepe Barbe <elven@******.com> wrote:
>
> > Thanks, now another question. Should increases in attributes made
> at
> > character creation with Adept Powers count towards cost of linked
> > Skills?
>
> I would say no, because ATB you first choose the attributes, then the
> skills and somewhen later the magical stuff...
>
> > Pepe
>
>
> - Burning Avatar
>
Ya know, the order in which you do these things is not specified in the
rule book, I would certainly allow it, otherwise, why bother with that
power?
--Anders
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Rules Question
Date: Thu Aug 1 20:15:01 2002
Anders Swenson writes:

> > Pepe Barbe <elven@******.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks, now another question. Should increases in attributes made at
> > > character creation with Adept Powers count towards cost of linked
> > > Skills?
>
> Burning Avatar writes:
>
> > I would say no, because ATB you first choose the attributes, then the
> > skills and somewhen later the magical stuff...

Actually, if you follow the character creation step-by-step from SR3, the
order is:

1) Race
2) Magic
3) Attributes
4) Skills
5) Resources (includes spells)

So by your own assessment (which I think is a fair ruling to go off), Adept
bonuses to Attributes _would_ help out for skills, as the Adept Attribute
bonuses actually come into play before Attributes are even chosen... This,
however, has interesting repercussions, as it could thus be argued that a
player could buy 6 points of Adept Enhanced Attribute Power, and then put 6
points of Attributes into the Attribute, and the Enhanced Attribute Power
would only cost for "up to racial maximum"...

> Ya know, the order in which you do these things is not specified in the
> rule book, I would certainly allow it, otherwise, why bother with that
> power?

So you would allow a character to purchase bioware that modified Attributes
(such as Muscle Toner), and since bioware is considered a natural Attribute
augmentation (p 77 M&M), then such a character could purchase skills at the
reduced rate thanks to their bioware? Your reasoning implies that you would
allow it, but I'm jsut checking that you've thought it through fully.

My answer is that Adept Attribute bonuses will help out for skill purchasing
during character creation, but bioware Attribute bonuses will not. This is
because, as Burning Avatar points out, equipment is selected _after_ skills
are chosen, so the effects of any gear cannot be applied to the skills that
have _already_ been chosen. Conversely, Adept abilities are chosen _prior_
to skills, so their bonsues may be applied. I assume, also, that because
Adept bonsues specifically vary the cost based upon the Attribute, that a
player must decide upon the Attribute before working out the actual cost for
the Adept Enhanced Attribute Power.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Aethelwulf)
Subject: Rules Question
Date: Thu Aug 1 22:05:01 2002
>
> Actually, if you follow the character creation step-by-step from SR3, the
> order is:
>
> 1) Race
> 2) Magic
> 3) Attributes
> 4) Skills
> 5) Resources (includes spells)
>
technically there is no order for CG, just the order in which the priority categories
are described....

My idea of a logical progression would be race, attributes, magic (if applicable),
skills, and resources.

and speaking of resources... if you can use spell points as karma to start as an
initiate, or to bond foci, would you allow an addept to use spellpoints to buy extra
powers ie 20 karma per extra point worth of powers.....

for that matter would you let characters with extra cash trade it in for pregame
karma?

and do any of you gm's out there make your players roleplay out buying their
starting equipment?

Aethelwulf
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: Rules Question
Date: Fri Aug 2 00:20:01 2002
>and speaking of resources... if you can use spell points as karma to start
>as an
>initiate, or to bond foci, would you allow an addept to use spellpoints to
>buy extra
>powers ie 20 karma per extra point worth of powers.....

Certainly. I think if your letting Magicians and Adepts of the Magical Way
initiate, then adepts should be able to as well, or at least use it to bond
weapon foci and the like.

>for that matter would you let characters with extra cash trade it in for
>pregame
>karma?

Hmmmm, probably not, but maybe, if they had a good argument. If they did get
pregame karma, I would make them either spend it or use it as Karma pool
(with the 10 to one ratio).

>and do any of you gm's out there make your players roleplay out buying
>their
>starting equipment?

No, I don't really see the point. They do have to justify where they got it
though. A non-comabat mage walking round with an assault rifle better have a
really good backround story to justify it.

--
"No grand idea was ever born in a conference, but alot of foolish ideas have
died there."
F. Scott Fitzgerald


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Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Burning Avatar)
Subject: Rules Question
Date: Fri Aug 2 04:05:03 2002
On Thu, 1 Aug 2002 20:05:43 -0600
"Aethelwulf" <uptoic@***********.net> wrote:

> My idea of a logical progression would be race, attributes, magic (if
> applicable), skills, and resources.

That's the way I use too, where choosing spells is included into the
resources.

> and speaking of resources... if you can use spell points as karma to
> start as an initiate, or to bond foci, would you allow an addept to
> use spellpoints to buy extra powers ie 20 karma per extra point worth
> of powers.....

Again ATB: adepts don't get any spellpoint during CG (p.60), and it
stands expliciteky that they can buy combat foci but only bound them
afterward, when they got *real* karma. So no I wouldn't.

> and do any of you gm's out there make your players roleplay out buying
> their starting equipment?

No, not really - I would be happy when they include special equipment in
their character story. The same for important connections or high level
skills/spells.

- Burning Avatar

--

Burning Avatars Data Haven
http://home.t-online.de/home/tobias.d/shadowrun

PGP User ID: 0x825CE007
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Rules Question
Date: Fri Aug 2 05:25:01 2002
According to Aethelwulf, on Fri, 02 Aug 2002 the word on the street was...

> and speaking of resources... if you can use spell points as karma to
> start as an initiate, or to bond foci, would you allow an addept to use
> spellpoints to buy extra powers ie 20 karma per extra point worth of
> powers.....

Adepts don't get spell points, so this doesn't really apply :)

> for that matter would you let characters with extra cash trade it in for
> pregame karma?

No. They could start the game with some spare cash (10% of what they had
left over) and then, if they can think up a good enough reason and I'm in a
good mood, use the Karma For Cash rule at that point, but that's as far as
I'd go.

> and do any of you gm's out there make your players roleplay out buying
> their starting equipment?

Not me; as far as character creation is concerned, the players spend the
money on equipment and that's it. In the game, it depends -- for normal
purchases (like if someone needs a new phone, or some ammo, or whatever) it
gets resolved with only some die rolls, while more special stuff gets
roleplayed out more often.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Huh?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul)
Subject: Rules Question
Date: Fri Aug 2 21:40:01 2002
> Actually, if you follow the character creation step-by-step from SR3, the
> order is:
>
> 1) Race
> 2) Magic
> 3) Attributes
> 4) Skills
> 5) Resources (includes spells)

Actually, I would put spending the Adepts power points in step 5, same
aquiring spells.

Annachie
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: Rules Question
Date: Mon Aug 5 14:15:01 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: "Damion Milliken" <dam01@***.edu.au>


> > > I would say no, because ATB you first choose the attributes, then the
> > > skills and somewhen later the magical stuff...
>
> Actually, if you follow the character creation step-by-step from SR3, the
> order is:
>
> 1) Race
> 2) Magic
> 3) Attributes
> 4) Skills
> 5) Resources (includes spells)
>
> So by your own assessment (which I think is a fair ruling to go off),
Adept
> bonuses to Attributes _would_ help out for skills, as the Adept Attribute
> bonuses actually come into play before Attributes are even chosen...
This,
> however, has interesting repercussions, as it could thus be argued that a
> player could buy 6 points of Adept Enhanced Attribute Power, and then put
6
> points of Attributes into the Attribute, and the Enhanced Attribute Power
> would only cost for "up to racial maximum"...

Unfortunately the book is not clear at all whether Adepts powers a choosen
during Magic or during Resources::Magical Gear and Spells. In my games, to
be consistent with all other magical powers, adept choose during
Resources::Magical Gear and Spells. [Assuming we are acually going by the
order presented in the book.]

> > Ya know, the order in which you do these things is not specified in the
> > rule book,

As best I can tell you are actually correct, those I believe the Official
Shadowrun FAQ rationalizes one of it's answers by saying that you do them
in the order described in the book.

The book itself isn't so picky it says "If you are creating your first
character, you may wish to assign priorities in the order described in this
section."

> > I would certainly allow it, otherwise, why bother with that
> > power?

I allow them to modify skill limits and cost AFTER character creation.
Also there are advantages to just having high attributes! During character
creation I feel cyberware, bioware, and magical bonuses to attributes
modifying skills can be to unbalancing. Specifically, this applies to
modifiers to intelligence adjusting the amount of knowledge and language
skills you recieve but, it also applies less so to the cost of skills.

Da Twink Daddy
datwinkdaddy@*******.com
ICQ# 514984
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Rules Question
Date: Mon Aug 5 22:05:02 2002
Aethelwulf writes:

> technically there is no order for CG, just the order in which the priority
> categories are described....

You're right, of course, and you'll notice that I did say "...if you
follow...", rather than stating that one _should_ follow.

> My idea of a logical progression would be race, attributes, magic (if
> applicable), skills, and resources.

Yes, this would also make good sense.

> and speaking of resources... if you can use spell points as karma to start
> as an initiate, or to bond foci, would you allow an addept to use
> spellpoints to buy extra powers ie 20 karma per extra point worth of
> powers.....

If they spent the 25,000 nuyen per "spell point" to purchase them, yes.
Similarly, I would allow them to Initiate, or to bond weapon foci in the
same way. Remember, Adepts do _not_ get the 25 (or 30) free spell points
during character creation. The term "spell points" is a bit of a misnomer,
really. I liked the previous edition's term "force points", which did not
have a name that implied the points could only be used for spells.

> for that matter would you let characters with extra cash trade it in for
> pregame karma?

I guess if the GM allowed that particular rule, it might be reasonable for
the characters to either trade their resource nuyen for karma, or to trade
it at the 1:10 ratio and then trade it for karma (remember, unspent resource
nuyen transaltes to in-game nuyen at a 1:10 ratio). I, however, personally
think that rules sucks, and so do not use it in any way.

> and do any of you gm's out there make your players roleplay out buying
> their starting equipment?

I don't bother with that sort of thing, but I do usually require an
appropriate character background/history, or at least a good explanation as
to why certain pieces of equipment are in the character's posession. But if
you stick to the rule about not allowing new characters gear with an
Availability of greater than 8, then there usually aren't too many problems
like this.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Rules Question
Date: Mon Aug 5 23:40:02 2002
Da Twink Daddy writes:

> Unfortunately the book is not clear at all whether Adepts powers a choosen
> during Magic or during Resources::Magical Gear and Spells.

Well, in the Magic section of character creation, the book specifically
mentions that Adepts have 6 Power Points, and that various powers cost a
particular amount of Power Points, which must be paid at character creation.
The Resources::Magical Gear and Spells only references foci and spells. It
seems fairly clear to me, although I won't say that it's exactly explicit.

> In my games, to be consistent with all other magical powers, adept choose
> during Resources::Magical Gear and Spells. [Assuming we are acually going
> by the order presented in the book.]

It's fair enough to do this, though.

> As best I can tell you are actually correct, those I believe the Official
> Shadowrun FAQ rationalizes one of it's answers by saying that you do them
> in the order described in the book.

I just skimmed through it twice, and didn't see such a thing. Do you know
where you recall this from? I'd be interested to know.

> The book itself isn't so picky it says "If you are creating your first
> character, you may wish to assign priorities in the order described in this
> section."

That's assigning the priorities, though, not actually spending the points
that the different priorities give you. What it means is that (1) you can
assign the E to race before you assign the A to resources, rather than
having to assign A to E; and (2) you can assign the first priority to Race
or Magic, rather than having to assign Race before Magic. I don't think that
the portion from which you quote is talking about spending the skill
points/attribute points/etc.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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