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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane VR)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Sun Feb 10 17:30:01 2002
Last game, one of the mages in my group bought Physical Mask at Force 1, and
a long debate ensued as to whether the the number of successes is limited by
the force of the spell. I thought that was a general rule, but it doesn't
specifically say it in the spell description. If it isn't, then there
doesn't seem much point in getting more that Force 1 in that spell, as with
12 Sorcery + Spell Pool dice, it is pretty easy to get more successes that
most people have Perception. But if it is limited then Force 1 is pretty
useless. Is there a rule on this anywhere?

Jane


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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Sun Feb 10 18:30:01 2002
> Last game, one of the mages in my group bought Physical Mask at Force
1,
> and
> a long debate ensued as to whether the the number of successes is
limited
> by
> the force of the spell. I thought that was a general rule, but it
doesn't
> specifically say it in the spell description. If it isn't, then there
> doesn't seem much point in getting more that Force 1 in that spell, as
> with
> 12 Sorcery + Spell Pool dice, it is pretty easy to get more successes
that
> most people have Perception. But if it is limited then Force 1 is
pretty
> useless. Is there a rule on this anywhere?
>
> Jane

on a similar note I'm wondering the same thing about most of the health
spells...they're all based on the number of successes you get so why
should you take them at any higher force than 1? (especially since
things get better when you make more successes and the force is the TN
for most spells)
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane VR)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Sun Feb 10 19:05:07 2002
>From: "Derek Hyde" <dhyde@*********.net>

>on a similar note I'm wondering the same thing about most of the health
>spells...they're all based on the number of successes you get so why
>should you take them at any higher force than 1? (especially since
>things get better when you make more successes and the force is the TN
>for most spells)
>

For most of the Health spells, the spell description includes somehting
along the lines of 'the maximum number of successes is equal to the spell's
Force'. So a force 1 spell can only heal one box of damage. The indirect
illusion spells (like mask and invisibility) don't have that line, which
seems a bit odd to me.

Jane


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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Sun Feb 10 19:15:01 2002
> For most of the Health spells, the spell description includes somehting
> along the lines of 'the maximum number of successes is equal to the
spell's
> Force'. So a force 1 spell can only heal one box of damage. The indirect
> illusion spells (like mask and invisibility) don't have that line, which
> seems a bit odd to me.
>

Ah here we go, read through the description for mask/physical mask.
Observers are given the chance to resist the illusion since it effects their
minds. This incurs a spell resistance test in which the force of the spell
becomes the TN. If you're walking into a high security area wouldn't you
like a TN greater than just 1?

In other words yes the force doesn't affect the effectiveness of how
mask/physical mask works on YOU. However it does effect the TN observers
receive to resist the illusion.
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane VR)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Sun Feb 10 19:40:01 2002
>From: "Jonathan" <jhogan@**********.nf.net>

>Ah here we go, read through the description for mask/physical mask.
>Observers are given the chance to resist the illusion since it effects
>their
>minds. This incurs a spell resistance test in which the force of the spell
>becomes the TN. If you're walking into a high security area wouldn't you
>like a TN greater than just 1?
>
>In other words yes the force doesn't affect the effectiveness of how
>mask/physical mask works on YOU. However it does effect the TN observers
>receive to resist the illusion.

Don't the observers have to get more successes that the spellcaster? On
average the mage will get 6 successes (12 dice, TN 4), so an observer would
need at least 7 Intelligence. Even though they only need to roll 2s, they
still need to roll 7 of them.

Jane


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Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Sun Feb 10 19:45:01 2002
> Don't the observers have to get more successes that the spellcaster? On
> average the mage will get 6 successes (12 dice, TN 4), so an observer
would
> need at least 7 Intelligence. Even though they only need to roll 2s, they
> still need to roll 7 of them.
>

That's if you're casting the mask/physical mask on the observers (unwilling
subject). This is just a spell resistance test to disbelieve the illusion.
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane VR)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Sun Feb 10 20:10:01 2002
>From: "Jonathan" <jhogan@**********.nf.net>

> > Don't the observers have to get more successes that the spellcaster? On
> > average the mage will get 6 successes (12 dice, TN 4), so an observer
>would
> > need at least 7 Intelligence. Even though they only need to roll 2s,
>they
> > still need to roll 7 of them.
> >
>
>That's if you're casting the mask/physical mask on the observers (unwilling
>subject). This is just a spell resistance test to disbelieve the illusion.
>

Wow, you mean they only have to get 1 success?

Jane



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Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Sun Feb 10 20:15:01 2002
> Wow, you mean they only have to get 1 success?
>

To disbelieve a force 1 physical mask/mask spell...pretty much.

At least by this method observers can still disbelieve (ugh a sammy trying
to bisbelieve a force 1 physical mask by a fourth grade initiate would be
nuts) but the TN can be high enough to make it a challenge. :)

Mind you this might not be exactly waht was intended but to me it makes
sense...twisted as my sense usually is... :o)
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Sun Feb 10 21:45:01 2002
<snipt!(TM)>
> Ah here we go, read through the description for
mask/physical mask. Observers are given the chance to
resist the illusion since it effects their minds. This
incurs a spell resistance test in which the force of
the spell becomes the TN. If you're walking into a
high security area wouldn't you like a TN greater than
just 1?
>
> In other words yes the force doesn't affect the
effectiveness of how mask/physical mask works on YOU.
However it does effect the TN observers receive to
resist the illusion.

It's all about the strategy, Jonathan...

;)

Here's what Jane's saying - you cast the spell with
Sorcery 6 and 6 spell pool. If you get 6 successes or
above, no normal person will EVER be able to see
through it, Force 1 or no. Why? Because they need to
get MORE successes on their perception test than you
got on your casting test. And no normal person has
more than Intelligence 6. That means, at most, 6
successes.

See the problem?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Sun Feb 10 21:55:01 2002
> Here's what Jane's saying - you cast the spell with
> Sorcery 6 and 6 spell pool. If you get 6 successes or
> above, no normal person will EVER be able to see
> through it, Force 1 or no. Why? Because they need to
> get MORE successes on their perception test than you
> got on your casting test. And no normal person has
> more than Intelligence 6. That means, at most, 6
> successes.
>
>

Well Considering the main part of the spellcasting rules are meant for
spells cast "directly" at a person (hence the sorcery test, and what not),
this applies when casting the spell at yourself or another person.

The resistance test for observers is indirect. The spell isn't being cast at
them, they're resisting the illusion itself. Hence the mage has no dice to
add against them resisting hence the spells TN relies solely on
force...unless I missed a sub section somewhere for indirect spell effect
resistance checks. As it was I just used the spell resistance test provided
in normal spellcasting ignoring the rest since the observers are not
"directly" being targeted by the spell.

And yes it's all in the strategy...the strategy of word play...at which I
obviously am sucking badly :oP
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Sun Feb 10 22:00:01 2002
> > Wow, you mean they only have to get 1 success?
>
> To disbelieve a force 1 physical mask/mask
spell...pretty much.
>
> At least by this method observers can still
disbelieve (ugh a sammy trying to bisbelieve a force 1
physical mask by a fourth grade initiate would be
nuts) but the TN can be high enough to make it a
challenge. :)
>
> Mind you this might not be exactly waht was intended
but to me it makes sense...twisted as my sense usually
is... :o)

Please note, Jane, that this is Jonathan's skew on the
rules. :)

Seriously, your interpretation is the by-the-book
method. For that reason, I think it's worthwhile to
enforce a limit on the number of successes you can get
on such spells. (Force or something similar.)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Sun Feb 10 22:20:01 2002
> Seriously, your interpretation is the by-the-book
> method. For that reason, I think it's worthwhile to
> enforce a limit on the number of successes you can get
> on such spells. (Force or something similar.)
>

Yes which makes having a higher than 1 force mask/physical mask valuable.

Assuming that your original spell pool dice still affect how others resist
seeing your illusion makes the purpose of having anything more than force 1
for the spell utterly useless, you can just make the resistance near
impossible by including all your spell pool dice for success when you
originally cast the spell...

In such a case why bother giving a resistance for anyone other than other
awakened characters? But others should be able to spot false illusion since
in most cases you'll never get it 100% right, there will be tip offs... ;)

:-)
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (M.S. "Herc" Bobroff)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Mon Feb 11 01:20:01 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jane VR" <kadjari@*******.com>


>
> Last game, one of the mages in my group bought Physical Mask at
Force 1, and
> a long debate ensued as to whether the the number of successes is
limited by
> the force of the spell. I thought that was a general rule, but it
doesn't
> specifically say it in the spell description. If it isn't, then
there
> doesn't seem much point in getting more that Force 1 in that spell,
as with
> 12 Sorcery + Spell Pool dice, it is pretty easy to get more
successes that
> most people have Perception. But if it is limited then Force 1 is
pretty
> useless. Is there a rule on this anywhere?
>
> Jane

Yes, the force of the spell is the limit on the number of successes
that can be applied to the "actual" success of a spell ... this does
mean that additional successes can be applied for the purposes of time
reduction though ...

As for a Force 1 spell being useless, it is not, especially in the
Health spell category, wherein Treat and Heal spells can not be cast
on the same person within the force of the spell in hours time. So
say your pc gets nailed with a Serious wound at the end of a combat
sequence, the mage with the Force 1 Treat spell can cast it upon him
and get your pc to under Serious Wounds, thereby only having the mods
for having a Moderate Wound. One hour later, once the party is away
from the heat, the mage can take his/her/its time and cast a more
powerful Heal spell on your pc thus healing the remainder of the
damage ...

Other spells at force 1 are also dangerous as well ... like Freeze
Water ... Fashion (I'm looking for something plain, not tres chic) ...
a simple light spell ...

-Mike
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Mon Feb 11 05:40:01 2002
According to Jane VR, on Sun, 10 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> Last game, one of the mages in my group bought Physical Mask at Force 1,
> and a long debate ensued as to whether the the number of successes is
> limited by the force of the spell. I thought that was a general rule, but
> it doesn't specifically say it in the spell description.

It's a resisted spell, and those are not usually limited in their number of
successes.

> If it isn't,
> then there doesn't seem much point in getting more that Force 1 in that
> spell, as with 12 Sorcery + Spell Pool dice, it is pretty easy to get
> more successes that most people have Perception. But if it is limited
> then Force 1 is pretty useless.

AFAIK, it's not limited, and that makes it a very useful spell to know at a
low Force, yes. Its only real drawback, at this low Force, is that it's
easier to dispel or kill in astral combat.

--
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Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Mon Feb 11 05:40:03 2002
According to Derek Hyde, on Mon, 11 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> on a similar note I'm wondering the same thing about most of the health
> spells...they're all based on the number of successes you get so why
> should you take them at any higher force than 1? (especially since
> things get better when you make more successes and the force is the TN
> for most spells)

The Heal and Treat spells are limited by their Force in the number of boxes
they can heal. Take them at Force 1 and you'll only be able to use a single
success for healing damage -- but you'll do it in amazingly short times :)

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Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Mon Feb 11 05:40:19 2002
According to M.S. \"Herc\" Bobroff, on Mon, 11 Feb 2002 the word on the street
was...

> Yes, the force of the spell is the limit on the number of successes
> that can be applied to the "actual" success of a spell ... this does
> mean that additional successes can be applied for the purposes of time
> reduction though ...

That's not what The Book says, though. The above only applies to most unresisted
spells, and only those that have it noted either in their descriptions or in the
general description for their spell type.

> As for a Force 1 spell being useless, it is not, especially in the
> Health spell category, wherein Treat and Heal spells can not be cast
> on the same person within the force of the spell in hours time.

That is a house rule. BTB, only one Heal or Treat can be applied for any given set
of wounds.

> So
> say your pc gets nailed with a Serious wound at the end of a combat
> sequence, the mage with the Force 1 Treat spell can cast it upon him
> and get your pc to under Serious Wounds, thereby only having the mods
> for having a Moderate Wound. One hour later, once the party is away
> from the heat, the mage can take his/her/its time and cast a more
> powerful Heal spell on your pc thus healing the remainder of the
> damage ...

So this would not be possible. You'd take the Serious, have it reduced to 5 boxes by
the Force 1 spell, and then have to heal that Moderate wound through munane means
such as rest and doctor's aid. (For those who haven't figured it out yet, the
"correct" sequence for anything below a Deadly wound is first aid to reduce the
wound level by one, then magic to heal as much of the rest as possible.)

--
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Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (LeBlanc, Lange)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Mon Feb 11 08:05:01 2002
<SNIP>
> Here's what Jane's saying - you cast the spell with
> Sorcery 6 and 6 spell pool. If you get 6 successes or
> above, no normal person will EVER be able to see
> through it, Force 1 or no. Why? Because they need to
> get MORE successes on their perception test than you
> got on your casting test. And no normal person has
> more than Intelligence 6. That means, at most, 6
> successes.
>
> See the problem?
>
> =====
> Doc'
> (aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka
> Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)
>
> .sig Sauer
>
> If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!
>

Don't know if it's the same spell resistance we're all talking about here, but I had to
double-check this rule last night during our game, and it said that getting an 'equal'
number of successes on the resistance test fought off the spell. Can't give a page number
though, don't have the book in front of me...
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (M.S. "Herc" Bobroff)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Mon Feb 11 10:10:00 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gurth" <Gurth@******.nl>

> As for a Force 1 spell being useless, it is not, especially in the
> Health spell category, wherein Treat and Heal spells can not be cast
> on the same person within the force of the spell in hours time.

>That is a house rule. BTB, only one Heal or Treat can be applied for
any given set
>of wounds.

Thanks for the correction Gurth,
-Mike
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Marc Renouf)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Mon Feb 11 10:35:01 2002
On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Jane VR wrote:

[Invisibility]

> Is there a rule on this anywhere?

Physical Mask is a Resisted Illusion, meaning that the observer
gets to make an Intelligence test in order to spot the illusion. That
technically means that if the casting mage generates more successes
than the observing character's Intelligence, the Mask cannot be pierced
regardless of the force of the spell.
Others have brought up the issues of ease of dispelling or
astrally despatching such spells, so I'll leave that alone.
However, one subtle change you can make to these spells is to
allow the target a Perception check, rather than simply a base
Intelligence check. In most cases, these are the same, but if you allow
use of an Observation type skill (with mechanics similar to Aura Reading
or the Awareness specialization of Stealth), an observer can net more
successes than they have Intelligence.
The other thing to remember is that even if you run it off vanilla
Intelligence, the caster is safe from most normal humans, but that guy
with the Encephalon or Cerebral Booster is going to spot them every time.

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

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Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Mon Feb 11 10:55:00 2002
>From: "Jane VR" <kadjari@*******.com>

>Last game, one of the mages in my group bought Physical Mask at Force 1,
>and
>a long debate ensued as to whether the the number of successes is limited
>by
>the force of the spell. I thought that was a general rule, but it doesn't
>specifically say it in the spell description. If it isn't, then there
>doesn't seem much point in getting more that Force 1 in that spell, as with
>12 Sorcery + Spell Pool dice, it is pretty easy to get more successes that
>most people have Perception. But if it is limited then Force 1 is pretty
>useless. Is there a rule on this anywhere?

>Jane

Way back in the barbaric days of SR2... ;)
...magic was all messed up, and I won't go into all our house rules to fix
it. But, I can think of one house rule you could implement for SR3 that
would make having a higher force spell worthwhile. Restrict the number of
pool dice that can be used to augment the casting of the spell. If a player
can only use pool dice equal to the force of the spell on the casting roll,
they will up the spell level pretty quick. This seems like a nice
compromise between SR2 magic rules (broken), and SR3 magic rules (fixed ?).
BTW, this is entirely based on my understanding of SR3 magic, as gleaned
from this thread. I could be way off. :)

Kori

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Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Dan Turek)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Mon Feb 11 13:15:00 2002
>From: Marc Renouf <renouf@********.com>
>Subject: Re: rules question - mask and physical mask
>
>On Sun, 10 Feb 2002, Jane VR wrote:
>[Invisibility]
> > Is there a rule on this anywhere?
>
> Physical Mask is a Resisted Illusion, meaning that the observer
>gets to make an Intelligence test in order to spot the illusion. That
>technically means that if the casting mage generates more successes
>than the observing character's Intelligence, the Mask cannot be pierced
>regardless of the force of the spell.
> Others have brought up the issues of ease of dispelling or
>astrally despatching such spells, so I'll leave that alone.
> However, one subtle change you can make to these spells is to
>allow the target a Perception check, rather than simply a base
>Intelligence check. In most cases, these are the same, but if you allow
>use of an Observation type skill (with mechanics similar to Aura Reading
>or the Awareness specialization of Stealth), an observer can net more
>successes than they have Intelligence.
> The other thing to remember is that even if you run it off vanilla
>Intelligence, the caster is safe from most normal humans, but that guy
>with the Encephalon or Cerebral Booster is going to spot them every time.
>

So Stealth, Disguise, or any other professional Make Up Artist might notice.
Beware your hairdresser! Most photographers would probably have something
too.

Oh, and since it shows up nice in Astral as a spell I know it shouldn't
change how the aura looks, but would it change the outward appearance of the
astral body? I would guess so. Can a person do that without a spell? (since
you can will astral clothes, etc. it sounds possible, but you can't change
yourself enough to change your Reach bonus).

Oops, that would be a new thread.



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Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Mon Feb 11 14:10:25 2002
According to M.S. \"Herc\" Bobroff, on Mon, 11 Feb 2002 the word on the street
was...

> Thanks for the correction Gurth,

Not a problem :) IMHO it's always best to clearly label house rules as such, to
avoid unnecessary confusion. Not sure if your post confused anyone, but I figured,
better safe than sorry :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (James Zealey)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Mon Feb 11 17:20:05 2002
<snip>
>12 Sorcery + Spell Pool dice, it is pretty easy to get more successes that
>most people have Perception. But if it is limited then Force 1 is pretty
>useless. Is there a rule on this anywhere?
>Jane
</snip>

<snip>
Restrict the number of
pool dice that can be used to augment the casting of the spell.
Kori
</snip>

I like Kori's idea, and I also like Marcs idea of using a perception check (allowing dice
from stealth/awareness).

The other possibility is to use Damion Millikens method of dice rolling. For those who
don't know, all rolls are open-ended and for every multiple of 6 above a TN you get an
extra success ie:
tn 3
roll is 3. 1 success
roll is 9. 6 above 3 = 2 successes
roll is 15. 12 above 3 = 3 successes
...

This means that any roll of a 6 will automatically be two successes against a force 1
spell, making them significantly less worthwhile.(Of course if your mage is an initiate it
would take a force 1 astral quest to bump it up to a force 2 spell for free...)


"Your gun has 'replica'
written down the side, mine
has 'Ares HVAR'..."

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Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane VR)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Mon Feb 11 18:00:02 2002
Thanks for the rules clarification, everyone. I mainly needed the BTB rule,
to settle the argument between the players but I like Kori's idea, and
Marc's, so they might become house tules.

As for the hairdressers and photographers, I imagine it would be very weird
for them, if they didn't see through it, and if they did, what would the
photographer see in the picture he took? What would other people see?

Last question, if you make your resistance roll, what do you see? Do you
just see the real person, or do you see the real person with the illusion
over the top?

Jane


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Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Mon Feb 11 21:55:02 2002
<snipt!(TM)>
> Don't know if it's the same spell resistance we're
all talking about here, but I had to double-check this
rule last night during our game, and it said that
getting an 'equal' number of successes on the
resistance test fought off the spell. Can't give a
page number though, don't have the book in front of
me...

Well, I wasn't sure if it was equal or greater, but it
doesn't make a big difference. 6 or 7 successes for
the mage, and it's impossible for regular joes to see through.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Tue Feb 12 01:55:02 2002
Dan Turek writes:

> Oh, and since it shows up nice in Astral as a spell I know it shouldn't
> change how the aura looks, but would it change the outward appearance of
> the astral body? I would guess so. Can a person do that without a spell?
> (since you can will astral clothes, etc. it sounds possible, but you can't
> change yourself enough to change your Reach bonus).

Is the "changing astral appearance" only for astral projection, though? I
thought that if you astrally perceived (or were dual natured) then your
astral form was pretty much your physical form. If you asrally projected,
however, then you could more or less choose how your form looked (or at
least how its accessories looked ;-)).

OTOH, if you read how mana illusion spells work, and then read how casting
spells in astral space (and on astral targets) works, then you might find
that it seems to be possible to Mask your astral form with a Mask spell...

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Tue Feb 12 01:55:05 2002
James Zealey writes:

> (Of course if your mage is an initiate it would take a force 1 astral
> quest to bump it up to a force 2 spell for free...)

I don't think that's possible. Upgrading spells (BTB) isn't possible. Even
if it were allowed (like I do ;-)), the minimum cost would be 1, even if an
astral quest was taken to reduce the karma cost.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Tue Feb 12 02:00:02 2002
Jane VR writes:

> Last question, if you make your resistance roll, what do you see? Do you
> just see the real person, or do you see the real person with the illusion
> over the top?

I always allow characters that see through illusions to know that there is
an illusion spell active. They will see the true form underneath, surrounded
by a transluscent image of what the illusion was meant to show.

I don't think that this is specifically mentioned either way in the rules,
though.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 29
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Tue Feb 12 02:05:01 2002
Rand Ratinac writes:

> Well, I wasn't sure if it was equal or greater, but it
> doesn't make a big difference. 6 or 7 successes for
> the mage, and it's impossible for regular joes to see through.

But 6 or 7 successes means that they rolled 6 or 7 4's. Likely, they were
rolling 10-14 dice! That's a skill of 5-7 and a spell pool of the same. In
other words, a pretty darned good spell caster. What, exactly, is wrong with
a very good spellcaster routinely fooling "average Joes" with their illusion
spells? It seems OK to me.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 30
From: shadowrn@*********.com (GreyWolf)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Tue Feb 12 02:35:01 2002
> But 6 or 7 successes means that they rolled 6 or 7 4's. Likely, they were
> rolling 10-14 dice! That's a skill of 5-7 and a spell pool of the same. In
> other words, a pretty darned good spell caster. What, exactly, is wrong
with
> a very good spellcaster routinely fooling "average Joes" with their
illusion
> spells? It seems OK to me.

true.. but an Average Joe only has THREE dice for intelligence. these 6 or 7
successes would fool the "smartest normal metahumans" on the planet on a
regular basis. I think its a bit game-unbalancing if your average starting
mage character (who admittedly will have spell pool 6 and sorcery 6 most of
the time) can almost always fool the smartest natural metahumans in the biz
with a simple force 1 illusion spell. I cant see that as working properly in
the game system which for all intensive purposes works pretty darn well
MIHO.

I'm certainly going to implement some 'house rule' to mediate the effect of
low force spells, perhaps limit 'effective' successes to force but allow all
successes to allow for higher quality of illusion perhaps - a better image
of smell or sound created.. like the difference between a symphony by
beethoven played by a professional philharmonic orchestra, or a drunken
ditty played on a rusty piece of barbed wire by Joe shmoe.

Same kind of thing Id apply to 'invisibility' spells.. which leads to my
next post.... coming up shortly.

To be continued!

GreyWolf
Message no. 31
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Tue Feb 12 06:00:14 2002
According to Jane VR, on Tue, 12 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> As for the hairdressers and photographers, I imagine it would be very
> weird for them, if they didn't see through it, and if they did, what
> would the photographer see in the picture he took?

With Mask, the photo would show the real person; with Physical Mask, it'd
show the illusion. This is the fundamental difference between the two,
after all :)

> What would other people see?

Same as everyone else: if they don't resist, they see the illusion, but if
they do resist they see the real person underneath.

> Last question, if you make your resistance roll, what do you see? Do you
> just see the real person, or do you see the real person with the illusion
> over the top?

I'd go for the latter, as that way they know they're seeing magic, instead
of not ralizing magic is in play.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dat is de kip voor het ei spannen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 32
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Tue Feb 12 06:00:46 2002
> > Well, I wasn't sure if it was equal or greater,
but it doesn't make a big difference. 6 or 7 successes
for the mage, and it's impossible for regular joes to
see through.
>
> But 6 or 7 successes means that they rolled 6 or 7
4's. Likely, they were rolling 10-14 dice! That's a
skill of 5-7 and a spell pool of the same. In other
words, a pretty darned good spell caster. What,
exactly, is wrong with a very good spellcaster
routinely fooling "average Joes" with their illusion
spells? It seems OK to me.
> Damion Milliken

Damion, by "average joes", I meant non-shadowrunner or
high-level NPC characters. 6 or 7 successes (depending
on how the rules actually read) means that the
smartest unenhanced (mentally, that is) metahuman
cannot see through the spell. The average "average
joe", with Intelligence 3, will be unable to see
through any spell that gets 3 or 4 successes. Which
means, on average, 6 or 8 dice - not so many if you're
putting in spell pool as well.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 33
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Tue Feb 12 09:45:08 2002
>>
on a similar note I'm wondering the same thing about most of the health
spells...they're all based on the number of successes you get so why
should you take them at any higher force than 1? (especially since
things get better when you make more successes and the force is the TN
for most spells)
>>

Most of the Health Spells state that the effect is limited to the force of
the spell. Heal can only heal one box if cast at force one.

John
Life is to short to drink cheap beer.
Message no. 34
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane VR)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Tue Feb 12 18:15:01 2002
>From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>

>
> > What would other people see?
>
>Same as everyone else: if they don't resist, they see the illusion, but if
>they do resist they see the real person underneath.

How does the magic get into the photo, to still be affecting people? How can
the photo be a photo of the real mage and a photo of the illusory mage
(depending on what people roll for resistance) at the same time?

Jane




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Message no. 35
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Tue Feb 12 19:05:04 2002
> How does the magic get into the photo, to still be affecting people? How
can
> the photo be a photo of the real mage and a photo of the illusory mage
> (depending on what people roll for resistance) at the same time?
>

Well Mask wouldn't fool a camera. Physical Mask would and in that case I
don't know if someone in a guard station watching the security monitors
would even get a chance to resist since it's just a projected image not the
illusion itself... Basically it falls onto how you read the rules, physical
mask is suppose to work versus technological devices (cameras and monitors)
but would it affect someone watching a monitor...Personally I'd say Physical
Mask fools the camera thus someone watching the monitor doesn't get the
spell resistance check basically security would see what the camera sees.
Message no. 36
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Wed Feb 13 00:55:01 2002
On Tue, 12 Feb 2002 18:38:21 +1100
"GreyWolf" <nightgyr@*********.com.au> wrote:

> > But 6 or 7 successes means that they rolled 6 or 7 4's. Likely, they were
> > rolling 10-14 dice! That's a skill of 5-7 and a spell pool of the same. In
> > other words, a pretty darned good spell caster. What, exactly, is wrong
> with
> > a very good spellcaster routinely fooling "average Joes" with their
> illusion
> > spells? It seems OK to me.
>
> true.. but an Average Joe only has THREE dice for intelligence. these 6 or 7
> successes would fool the "smartest normal metahumans" on the planet on a
> regular basis. I think its a bit game-unbalancing if your average starting
> mage character (who admittedly will have spell pool 6 and sorcery 6 most of
> the time) can almost always fool the smartest natural metahumans in the biz
> with a simple force 1 illusion spell. I cant see that as working properly in
> the game system which for all intensive purposes works pretty darn well
> MIHO.

Well, anyone capable of astral perception can ruin this mage's
party pretty quickly. Astral sight seems to be the all-time illusion
breaker - you can always notice spells there, and see the true aura of
someone targeted with an illusion spell.

You don't even need a full magician to do this - even the places
that normally can't afford proper magical security could reasonably find
an adept with the Astral Perception power, or even an enchanter or
"astral adept" (a magician capable only of astral perception and
projection) as an astral watchman.

These last two were removed from the selection of "playable" magicians
in SR3 because they weren't interesting or useful enough to work as PCs
(or at least it seems so), but nothing prevents a GM from introducing
them to the game world as NPCs. Of course, not everyone will be able to
find or afford one of these, but they'd be much more common and cheaper
than full or even aspected magicians.

--
Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
Message no. 37
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Wed Feb 13 05:25:07 2002
According to Jane VR, on Wed, 13 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> How does the magic get into the photo, to still be affecting people? How
> can the photo be a photo of the real mage and a photo of the illusory
> mage (depending on what people roll for resistance) at the same time?

The magic isn't on the photo, and isn't affecting anyone anymore at that
time. The photo is a photo _of_the_magic_ -- if you understand what I mean.
Think of it as a mana illusion spell putting an idea into your head,
whereas a physical illusion spell actually reflects light (this may or may
not be true, but it works for this particular case). So if you take a
picture of someone under a normal Mask spell, the light bounces off the
actual person, not off the illusion, so that is what appears on the photo
-- but if you take a photograph of someone under a Physical Mask spell, the
photograph registers the light that bounces off the subject's _illusory_
appearance.

--
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Dat is de kip voor het ei spannen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 38
From: shadowrn@*********.com (GreyWolf)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Wed Feb 13 05:35:01 2002
> The magic isn't on the photo, and isn't affecting anyone anymore at that
> time. The photo is a photo _of_the_magic_ -- if you understand what I
mean.
> Think of it as a mana illusion spell putting an idea into your head,
> whereas a physical illusion spell actually reflects light (this may or may
> not be true, but it works for this particular case). So if you take a
> picture of someone under a normal Mask spell, the light bounces off the
> actual person, not off the illusion, so that is what appears on the photo
> -- but if you take a photograph of someone under a Physical Mask spell,
the
> photograph registers the light that bounces off the subject's _illusory_
> appearance.

According to your statement then, a force one physical mask is as good as a
force twenty physical mask for the purposes of fooling a camera. That doesnt
make sense. Someone somewhere, or something perhaps, should get a resistance
roll to see if the magic actually worked.. thats how the system is built for
i;llusions - as though they are actually resisted spells. Resisted being the
operative word...

I wish this had been cleared up in errata somewhere.

GreyWolf
Message no. 39
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Wed Feb 13 09:20:01 2002
> According to your statement then, a force one physical mask is as good as
a
> force twenty physical mask for the purposes of fooling a camera. That
doesnt
> make sense. Someone somewhere, or something perhaps, should get a
resistance
> roll to see if the magic actually worked.. thats how the system is built
for
> i;llusions - as though they are actually resisted spells. Resisted being
the
> operative word...
>

Actually considering most are inclined to allow the usage of a mages
successes against the average joe all you'll need is a force 1 physical mask
spell...ever.

People can argue that the higher forces are for fooling awakened
security..but in all honesty exactly how many runs with pre knowledge of
awakened security include fooling that security? I can think of 0. When
awakened security is concerned you do not try to fool it, you neutralize it.

Now then what's the point of a higher force physical mask if joe average
with 3 int is going to have trouble resisting a force 1 with 4-5 spell pool
successes? There is none. Hence mage successes should NOT be counted for it.
This is the only way I can see Physical Mask at a higher force being even
remotely valuable. This might be an unconcious house rule (determined by how
we've read the rules) but it's one which makes joe average better than a
flesh brick and makes Physical Mask more valuable at higher forces.

:-)
Message no. 40
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Achille Autran)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Wed Feb 13 10:40:02 2002
>From: "Jonathan" <jhogan@**********.nf.net>
>
>Now then what's the point of a higher force physical mask if joe average
>with 3 int is going to have trouble resisting a force 1 with 4-5 spell pool
>successes? There is none. Hence mage successes should NOT be counted for it.
>This is the only way I can see Physical Mask at a higher force being even
>remotely valuable. This might be an unconcious house rule (determined by how
>we've read the rules) but it's one which makes joe average better than a
>flesh brick and makes Physical Mask more valuable at higher forces.

In my games, it's magical security SOP to have mid-force watchers (3-5)
ordered to attack low force spells and foci at sight in their guarded
perimeter. This applies to places with moderate security and up, so it's
still not that common, but after having his physical mask dropped during an
infiltration at the front gate, or an improved reflex in mid-combat, any
mage will consider acquiring these spells at higher forces.

I should add that dispatching the watcher will warn the summoner and
trigger security.

Molloy
Message no. 41
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Dan Turek)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Wed Feb 13 11:10:19 2002
>From: "GreyWolf" <nightgyr@*********.com.au>
>Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 21:38:23 +1100
>
> > Think of it as a mana illusion spell putting an idea into your head,
> > whereas a physical illusion spell actually reflects light

This is what we've always used. Physical means it manifests in a physical
manner, while mana is always intangible/mental.

>According to your statement then, a force one physical mask is as good as a
>force twenty physical mask for the purposes of fooling a camera. That
>doesnt
>make sense. Someone somewhere, or something perhaps, should get a
>resistance
>roll to see if the magic actually worked.. thats how the system is built
>for
>i;llusions - as though they are actually resisted spells. Resisted being
>the
>operative word...

Yes/No :) Yes, the camera should see it. A camera can also look at static
just as happily. The way it was written in 1st Ed was the higher the Force
the better quality the detail/appearance. Your Charisma 1 character is NOT
getting into the exclusive club with a Force 1 Mask to make him look like a
star. He might look a little more like whoever, but anyone can tell it's
just a couple similar features. And regardless of successes/Force if the
character talks the cover is most likely blown.

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Message no. 42
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Wed Feb 13 13:25:07 2002
According to GreyWolf, on Wed, 13 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> According to your statement then, a force one physical mask is as good as
> a force twenty physical mask for the purposes of fooling a camera.

Yep, because non-living things don't get resistance tests under SR3 rules.

> That
> doesnt make sense. Someone somewhere, or something perhaps, should get a
> resistance roll to see if the magic actually worked..

The photographer would, at the time the picture is being taken...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dat is de kip voor het ei spannen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 43
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Garrett Guillotte)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Wed Feb 13 13:35:01 2002
Hi, just a newbie lurker butting in to comment on a situation I've hit
before in a game. Pardon the intrusion. ^_^ I'll start off by saying none
of this is BTB, which probably doesn't answer anyone's real question. But
still...

One of my players' characters had been a photojournalist before turning
runner and ended up getting used to grab photos of targets. What we finally
whittled down after about an hour and a half of niggling through the rules
and respective (lack of) knowledge of photography was this:

Off-the-shelf cameras that most people own in the SR world, from the average
joe to the professional journalist, are going to be digital - film cameras
are for hobbyists, art students, dead zone photography, and taking pictures
of spells and enchanted subjects (see the Physically Masked part below).

For Masked subjects, the camera takes a picture of the physical person.
Optical viewfinders show the actual subject UNLESS the viewfinder shows the
subject through the lens and an enchanted anti-illusion lens filter is used.
We figured magic's been around long enough for something like that to have
been made, but the process is complicated and expensive to make one that
just shows that the subject is being Masked. If the camera, film or
digital, simply uses a video screen for a viewfinder, the physical
appearance of the subject is shown with a significant amount of ghosting.
Without further perception checks, all it shows is that the subject is
obviously Masked.

For Physically Masked subjects, we got a little more complicated. We ended
up fleshing out a series of cameras with different stats to add to the
character's for resisting illusionary spells, sort of like weapons, as well
as coming up with a few enchanted or specially-crafted lens filters and new
film and printing paper types to help the camera defeat certain illusion
spells. All those extra stats got a little nerdy and overdone, though, and
we just gave each camera an illusion rating, with a slight bonus to film
cameras over digital cameras. The photography wasn't that important to each
run, but if it is to yours -- say, you have a specialized team of runners
that only takes recon missions -- the detailed system might be a good way to
go. A little tweaking would suit different types of video as well.

Also, there may be rules in the sourcebook about journalism and media that
apply. The name of it escapes me, and I've never read it, but it's worth a
check if one hasn't been done yet.

Bottom line - the resistance roll for a photo of a Physically Masked subject
should take place in the camera (and, to a lesser extent, in the
developing), even though there aren't any rules for it. >_< A higher
quality camera and lens filters can make a force one Physical Mask worthless
even in the viewfinder, and special film and printing paper can at least
prove the existence of an illusion against a Physical Mask of force twenty.

Sorry for the length -- I'll make up for it by not posting for another four
months. ^o^

...
> > photograph registers the light that bounces off the subject's _illusory_
> > appearance.
>
> According to your statement then, a force one physical mask is as good as
a
> force twenty physical mask for the purposes of fooling a camera. That
doesnt
> make sense. Someone somewhere, or something perhaps, should get a
resistance
> roll to see if the magic actually worked.. thats how the system is built
for
> i;llusions - as though they are actually resisted spells. Resisted being
the
> operative word...
>
> I wish this had been cleared up in errata somewhere.
>
> GreyWolf
Message no. 44
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Wed Feb 13 16:00:01 2002
>
> Yep, because non-living things don't get resistance tests under SR3 rules.
>

They get a resistance test if a spell is being cast at them, otherwise it
tends to get ignored.

However that's the one thing I've found since this thread was brought up,
there's lots of info about spellcasting of a direct nature but how indirect
effects are handled is left very vague (ie illusions and observers).

While I can see the points others have made by allowing the mages successes
from when he or she originally cast the spell on a target to apply to
observers who see the illusion later...it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Technically if you read it one way the mages successes are only applied to
the initial casting of the spell, making the force of the spell very
important when observers get a spell resistance check. However on the flip
side allowing the successes means the casual observer shouldn't even bother
with a force 1 resistance check because due to the likely hood of a high
success rate on the mages rolls with his spell pool thus making spells like
Physical Mask impossible to counter other than when dealing with awakened
enemies...and even then most runners seek to neutralize awakened security,
not fool it.

Just wish there was a more clear definition of what happens with indirect
effects since the book seems to harp solely upon direct effects.
Message no. 45
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bo Johnson)
Subject: rules question - mask and physical mask
Date: Wed Feb 13 21:00:01 2002
At 05:35 PM 2/13/02 -03-30, Jonathan wrote:
>While I can see the points others have made by allowing the mages successes
>from when he or she originally cast the spell on a target to apply to
>observers who see the illusion later...it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
>Technically if you read it one way the mages successes are only applied to
>the initial casting of the spell, making the force of the spell very
>important when observers get a spell resistance check. However on the flip
>side allowing the successes means the casual observer shouldn't even bother
>with a force 1 resistance check because due to the likely hood of a high
>success rate on the mages rolls with his spell pool thus making spells like
>Physical Mask impossible to counter other than when dealing with awakened
>enemies...and even then most runners seek to neutralize awakened security,
>not fool it.
>
>Just wish there was a more clear definition of what happens with indirect
>effects since the book seems to harp solely upon direct effects.

Sure it makes sense. I don't recall any reference to sustained spells
declining in power while they are sustained. If someone casts a great
Mask spell and sustains it, it's still going to be great 5 minutes later.

Lots of mages in Shadowrun should have high force spells. Because lots
of mages aren't going to be rolling 12 dice on their Sorcery test. (Of
course many of the PCs and higher-rated NPCs will, but they're exceptions.)
Think of your average Joe Mage with Sorcery 3, INT 3, WILL 3, Magic 6. If
he wants to avoid drain casting a Mask spell, he's probably only going to
roll 5 dice for his Sorcery test. He doesn't have the skill to cast spells
amazingly well, so he has to rely on raw power (high force spells).

However, I do think all spells should somehow be limited by their Force.
I'd recommend a general rule that the number of successes on any spell is
limited to the Force of the spell. This already applies to most spells,
but it is sadly lacking on a few.

Further Reading

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Thwap!