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From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Rules question: Permanently conjuring elementals (and then
Date:	Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:21:31 -0500

Message no. 1 At 10:44 PM 2/27/98 +0000, you wrote:
>I have a few questions I would like answered, or at least discussed.
>
<snipped>

>How important is the flesh to an astral image?
>(In regard to where the person thinks or feels him or herself very
>different from their flesh. Keywords might be homosexuality, some
>shamans, etcetera.).
>

You mean the "I was born the wrong gender" sort of thing? I seem to recall
in either SR2 or the Grimmy that the astral form of a mage is an idealized
self image; I recall an example given regarding a corporate hit mage
looking very sinister on the astral, where he might look normal in the
physical.

Given that concept, I guess a magician who thought they were born the wrong
gender could very well take on the characteristics of the opposite gender,
maybe even looking like a female/male version of themselves.

As for the shamans, I've always role-played that they do have certain
characteristics of their totem, like eagle eyes or a snake tongue or
something. I should think that the shamans mask would become very obvious
and realistic on the astral also.

>I imagine astral space somewhat like this:
>A ghostly landscape, where things people care about emotionally
>appears to have more substance than items disregarded. Everything
>appears solid, but the more emotionally charged an item is the more
>'in focus' it appears... a long forgotten chair would be blurry, but
>still appear perfectly solid. The ghostly appearance is because there
>is little ambient light, except for people (including the astral
>traveller) who gives off a weak, almost sourceless light. While
>letters might be visible, emotional feelings for a single letter is
>fairly unheard of, and so they are blurry beyond recognition.
>Messages in large writing scrawled in blood would still be visible -
>their size and emotional impact would render them clear and
>unblurred. Also, the emotions themselves connected to items may color
>their shape and looks. An assassin's rifle, lovingly used for many
>kills, might look more deadly, more sinister, in the astral, for
>instance, while the rose given on a first date, while faded and
>dried, would look fresh and vibrant with life. Magical constructs
>stand out in perfectly clear detail - not (necessarily) for their
>emotional value, but simply because this is where they are real.
>
>... is that about it?
>
>
Sounds about right to me. Your mileage may vary of course.

Erik J.

"Yes! It's almost the weekend. That's when I get to kill people and
relax!"

From:	William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject:	Re: Rules question: Permanently conjuring elementals (and then
Date:	Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:48:23 +0100

Message no. 2 >I have a few questions I would like answered, or at least discussed.

I'm a bit late but I'll play. :)

>I have seen references to a rule where you can summon elementals
>permanently by paying karma equal to force - they gain 'unlimited
>services' until the elemental is destroyed. Force can be restored by
>resummoning the elemental - this does not require additional karma.
>
>I am unable to find a reference to this in the books. Can I then
>assume this is a house rule, or is it somewhere I haven't looked?

Grimmy. (don't have the book here so I can't give you a page number).

>Can a free spirit inhibiting a homonucili hide its life in the
>homonocili?(sp?)

I don't think it's possible by the rules. Since a spirit is a homonculus,
it is bonded to its corpse. I think hidden should be different from itself.

>How important is the flesh to an astral image?
>(In regard to where the person thinks or feels him or herself very
>different from their flesh. Keywords might be homosexuality, some
>shamans, etcetera.).

I hope no one think of himself with a different sex. It's just like
thinking of himself as an animal, I think it's impossible. So, you see
yourself a bit differently but never to become someone. IMO, it's much more
a show of your main qualities and defaults.

>I imagine astral space somewhat like this:
> [skip description]
>
>... is that about it?

That seems fine.

>Can personal barriers only be cast as a 'dome' spell centered at the
>caster? (I have assumed so.).

IMO, it's centered on the caster but not necessarily a dome.

>I also assume barriers do not move with the caster.

IMO, they do. If you think that a detection spell with area effect moves
with the caster, I think it's the same with manip spells. Since it isn't
stated anywhere, I think all spell types functions the same way regarding
area effect.

>Is LOS required for sustaining a spell?
>(There was a discussion about this a few months ago. I failed to
>notice a conclusion.).

Mike says yes. I say only at casting time (if no ritual is used).

>If it is, will an elemental sustaining a spell have to remain within
>the caster's LOS? (Could an elemental sustain the spell without
>having to stay in the caster's LOS, in other words. I think not, but
>it'd be nice if it was that way.).

Mike says an elemental has to be within LOS to provide the mage a service.
IMO, it doesn't have to. In your case, I would say it need to be there
because I see the spirit sustaining the spell by holding it in astral space
(which would be my explanation for the lost force).

>Has anyone noticed how utterly devastating running through a ward
>with a few active foci, quickened spells etc. is?

Yep. That always gave me a problem.
* For foci however, there's no real problem since you only need to
deactivate it.
* For quickened spells, you can consider it is highly connected with your
body and so passes with you. That should also mean you could ground through
the quickened spell in that case... Just make your choice.

Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"

From:	Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject:	Re: Rules question: Permanently conjuring elementals (and then
Date:	Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:07:29 +0000

Message no. 3 William Gallas wrote:

> >I also assume barriers do not move with the caster.
>
> IMO, they do. If you think that a detection spell with area effect moves
> with the caster, I think it's the same with manip spells. Since it isn't
> stated anywhere, I think all spell types functions the same way regarding
> area effect.

The detection spells in question is the so-called 'hypersense'
spells, which is a special case. It would be very unwise to assume
all spells in general work as special case spells.

Detection spells, P 152, BBB:
'those called hypersense spells, give a magician new senses for as
long as the spell is maintained. To determine the range at which the
hypersense operate, the magician rollse Force dice against a TN 4,
successes * magic meters range. Such spells are listed as having a
limited range.'.

And barrier is, obviously, not a hypersense spell.

The Barrier spell does not state that it is treated differently
wether the caster is inside or outside the area of effect, neither
does it cover any of the numerous questions about what would happen
if a barrier's movement was blocked.

Examining the data so far, despite the fact that most said, 'sure, it
moves with the caster', I have not seen a good reason to change my
assumption that it does not move.

About LOS:
Reading the book, it only states that concentration is required.
When more than a few has said LOS is not required, I am inclined to
agree. That implies sustaining a spell and quickening a spell is two
very similar processes, incidentally.

About personal barriers:
The only description of the 'personal' effect I remember reading is
in the grimoire, in spell design, where it states that if a spell has
the 'personal' modification, it is considered cast at the caster, and
thus modifiers for voluntary target, touch or limited range e etc. is
inappliccable. I have not been able to find - anywhere - something
that says this changes the way the spell basically works. So I am
still very curious *where* it says that personal barrier spells are
'body armor'. I have assumed this for a long time, but then I got a
bad case of doubt, which made me ask. And while many have said that
'Mike says it works that way', it appears Mike is going by his own
rules in a number of questions and isn't entirely official. Also,
since a 'body armor' version of the barrier spell would be very
different from the original spell, it should have a little more of a
description than
'Personal: F/2+1M Drain.'

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost

From:	William Gallas <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject:	Re: Rules question: Permanently conjuring elementals (and then
Date:	Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:41:44 +0100

Message no. 4 >> >I also assume barriers do not move with the caster.
>>
>> IMO, they do. If you think that a detection spell with area effect moves
>> with the caster, I think it's the same with manip spells. Since it isn't
>> stated anywhere, I think all spell types functions the same way regarding
>> area effect.
>
>The detection spells in question is the so-called 'hypersense'
>spells, which is a special case. It would be very unwise to assume
>all spells in general work as special case spells.

Don't start over on this, please ! I don't want to argue on this anymore.
Anyway, I mustn't have been very clear : I wrote about area effect and not
range, which is two different things.

>And barrier is, obviously, not a hypersense spell.

A barrier a LOS range. Area effect is different from range.

>The Barrier spell does not state that it is treated differently
>wether the caster is inside or outside the area of effect, neither
>does it cover any of the numerous questions about what would happen
>if a barrier's movement was blocked.

Yep. That's the main problem.

>Examining the data so far, despite the fact that most said, 'sure, it
>moves with the caster', I have not seen a good reason to change my
>assumption that it does not move.

I haven't my BBB here but I'll look closer at this area of effect and tell
you a bit more on this.

>About LOS:
>Reading the book, it only states that concentration is required.
>When more than a few has said LOS is not required, I am inclined to
>agree. That implies sustaining a spell and quickening a spell is two
>very similar processes, incidentally.

I don't see why it would make those two very similar...

Cobra.

E-mail adress : wgallas@*****.fr
Quote : "Never trust an elf"

From:	Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject:	Re: Rules question: Permanently conjuring elementals (and then
Date:	Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:06:53 +0000

Message no. 5 > > > >I also assume barriers do not move with the caster.
> > >(snip detection spells AOE moves with caster so all AOE's do)

> >The detection spells in question is the so-called 'hypersense'
> >spells, which is a special case. It would be very unwise to assume
> >all spells in general work as special case spells.
>
> Don't start over on this, please ! I don't want to argue on this anymore.

I hate that kind of rethoric/argument technique. Don't use it,
please. If I were in a worse mood I'd flame you.

> Anyway, I mustn't have been very clear :

'I mustn't have been very clear' is meant to imply I am too dense to
understand you, right? Just asking to make sure I understand what you
are saying here... just in case you're not clear.

> I wrote about area effect and not range, which is two different things.

Not for hypersense spells it isn't. There, the area of effect is the
area within range, because they give the caster senses extending to
the spells' range. Thus this is an unique condition which causes the
'AOE' to move with the caster for this particular class of spells.
And it is, therefore, a very poor example on why AOE in general
should move with the caster.

> >And barrier is, obviously, not a hypersense spell.
>
> A barrier a LOS range. Area effect is different from range.

A barrier is Limited range. Area effect is different from range for a
barrier spell.. not a hypersense detection spell. The point is?
(Most detection spells is hypersense spells.).

> I haven't my BBB here but I'll look closer at this area of effect and tell
> you a bit more on this.

Great. Rather than tell me 'a bit', why not tell me whay you find,
and quote the relative sections?

> >About LOS:
> >Reading the book, it only states that concentration is required.
> >When more than a few has said LOS is not required, I am inclined to
> >agree. That implies sustaining a spell and quickening a spell is two
> >very similar processes, incidentally.
>
> I don't see why it would make those two very similar...

Both sustained spells and quickened spells are powered by an outside
force (caster or karma) both has a link to the caster, neither can be
grounded through, neither is broken by lack of LOS, both can be
attacked on the astral... they act and can be acted upon in an
identical manner. That makes them very similar. The logical
conclusion is that quickening is a more advanced form of
sustaining... a conclusion which makes sense, and makes things more
streamlined, which is for the good.

(Oops.. 'neither can be grounded through'... well. Call it a house
rule and ignore it.).

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost

From:	Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Rules question: Permanently conjuring elementals (and then
Date:	Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:07:01 EST

Message no. 6 In a message dated 98-03-02 04:42:23 EST, wgallas@*****.FR writes:

> >Can a free spirit inhibiting a homonucili hide its life in the
> >homonocili?(sp?)
>
> I don't think it's possible by the rules. Since a spirit is a homonculus,
> it is bonded to its corpse. I think hidden should be different from itself.

It says in the rules (Grimoire) that if an Ally Spirit becomes "Free" while it
is in "Inhabitation Form", it becomes "trapped" in that form. That
isn't the
same as Hidden Life, but it -could- be looked at in similar fashion. Besides,
it would make the Spirit a more powerful opponent and/or increase it's
inherent survivability (somewhat).
>
> I hope no one think of himself with a different sex. It's just like
> thinking of himself as an animal, I think it's impossible. So, you see
> yourself a bit differently but never to become someone. IMO, it's much more
> a show of your main qualities and defaults.

Actually, the Astral Self is the "idealized" self, so such things as
"Transexuality" or "Beastial Personification" are completely within
the
bounds. DAMN that gives me a twisted thought, a person (magician of some
nature) arranges a meet in the astral, and is a Transexual/Transvestite...the
group meets a person of the opposite -apparent- sex than they are
physically...wow, what a way to hide...

> >I also assume barriers do not move with the caster.
>
> IMO, they do. If you think that a detection spell with area effect moves
> with the caster, I think it's the same with manip spells. Since it isn't
> stated anywhere, I think all spell types functions the same way regarding
> area effect.

I remember something about "Circular Barriers" can move, but moving more than
minimal speed (1 meter per action/turn sort of thing) requires a Spell
Sustaining (Willpower) test...don't remember where I read that, could be
something from First Ed...

> >Is LOS required for sustaining a spell?
> >(There was a discussion about this a few months ago. I failed to
> >notice a conclusion.).
>
> Mike says yes. I say only at casting time (if no ritual is used).

I am just -SO- glad Mike has remained consistent (NOT) with the way SR magic
system was first set up...(sigh)

> Mike says an elemental has to be within LOS to provide the mage a service.
> IMO, it doesn't have to. In your case, I would say it need to be there
> because I see the spirit sustaining the spell by holding it in astral space
> (which would be my explanation for the lost force).

Mike's phrasing is a "from the editor's remark" and I believe it was Steve
Kenson who said that Mike is not always consistent with those answers. I know
I've caught him conflicting himself before.

IMHO, "Remote Service" is just that, Remote, and doesn't require LOS with the
magician.

> Yep. That always gave me a problem.
> * For foci however, there's no real problem since you only need to
> deactivate it.
> * For quickened spells, you can consider it is highly connected with your
> body and so passes with you. That should also mean you could ground through
> the quickened spell in that case... Just make your choice.

Ah, but Quickenings are NOT necessarily connected to your body. They are also
always active once created. What you are suggesting implies "House Rules" or
"Case by Case Circumstances" of some nature.

As for the foci, yes, turning it off fixes that problem with Wards...of course
the projecting magician "turns it off" he can't turn it back on either and
thus use it against anyone inside the Ward he may have wanted to...

-K

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