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From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Rules question: Permanently conjuring elementals (and then s
Date:	Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:41:33 EST

Message no. 1 > I have seen references to a rule where you can summon elementals
> permanently by paying karma equal to force - they gain 'unlimited
> services' until the elemental is destroyed. Force can be restored by
> resummoning the elemental - this does not require additional karma.
>
> I am unable to find a reference to this in the books. Can I then
> assume this is a house rule, or is it somewhere I haven't looked?

You can pay Karma equal to force to bind an elemental to a PLACE.
(my group interprets this to mean it can perform one set of pre-given
orders at that place). This is in the books, but I don't have them
here, so....

> Can a free spirit inhibiting a homonucili hide its life in the
> homonocili?(sp?)

I don't believe it says otherwise. I did it with one NPC. (also
made that his personal domain...he was a sword, and could attempt to
possess anyone that held him.)

> How important is the flesh to an astral image?
> (In regard to where the person thinks or feels him or herself very
> different from their flesh. Keywords might be homosexuality, some
> shamans, etcetera.).

Erm....defintely a GM call here. I'd say that regardless of
"appearance", the astral image will always be recognizable as the
person though.
<snip nice astral description>
> ... is that about it?

As far as I'm concerned.

> Can personal barriers only be cast as a 'dome' spell centered at the
> caster? (I have assumed so.).

I assumed they followed the casters aura....thus covering the
clothing, but not much else (according to FASAMike, this is why
Personal Bullet Barrier doesn't render your gun useless)

> I also assume barriers do not move with the caster.

GM's go 50/50 on this one. I say personal version do.

> Is LOS required for sustaining a spell?
> (There was a discussion about this a few months ago. I failed to
> notice a conclusion.).

I believe the conclusion was "Books don't say.....but it better not
be or else 90% of their fiction is wrong, which is worse than usual"

> If it is, will an elemental sustaining a spell have to remain within
> the caster's LOS? (Could an elemental sustain the spell without
> having to stay in the caster's LOS, in other words. I think not, but
> it'd be nice if it was that way.).

<brain fart>

> Has anyone noticed how utterly devastating running through a ward
> with a few active foci, quickened spells etc. is?

Yup. EGMG Note that the creation rules for wards severally limit
their force. Too many GM's forget this.

-=SwiftOne=-

From:	Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject:	Re: Rules question: Permanently conjuring elementals (and then s
Date:	Sat, 28 Feb 1998 03:01:32 +0000

Message no. 2 > You can pay Karma equal to force to bind an elemental to a PLACE.
> (my group interprets this to mean it can perform one set of pre-given
> orders at that place). This is in the books, but I don't have them
> here, so....

This sounds like physical service, which does not cost karma IIRC.

> > Can a free spirit inhibiting a homonucili hide its life in the
> > homonocili?(sp?)
>
> I don't believe it says otherwise. I did it with one NPC. (also
> made that his personal domain...he was a sword, and could attempt to
> possess anyone that held him.)

Uh.. right. Personal domain too. OUCH! I thought a regenerating
spirit with 14+ hardened armor was bad enough. :)

> > Can personal barriers only be cast as a 'dome' spell centered at the
> > caster? (I have assumed so.).
>
> I assumed they followed the casters aura....thus covering the
> clothing, but not much else (according to FASAMike, this is why
> Personal Bullet Barrier doesn't render your gun useless)

Brings me to another question (which was a hidden part of the first,
actually)... I've heard that a personal barrier works as 'close
barrier protection'.. similar to the shields in 'Dune'. Reading the
book carefully, that is not the case. It's just a normal, (magic)
meter radius dome barrier centered on the caster. So it cannot be
cast at range to trap enemies, nor as a wall if it is personal.
(The wall bit I'm not sure about.).

I'd say you shouldn't get -3 drain level reduction for casting a more
useful spell. Notice that personal barriers aren't (shouldn't be?)
fully 3 levels less since the basic barriers allready had limited
range.

> > I also assume barriers do not move with the caster.
>
> GM's go 50/50 on this one. I say personal version do.

If personal works as described above too? If it works as Brett
describes ('force field armor') then it will have to move with the
caster, but if not?

> > Is LOS required for sustaining a spell?
> > (There was a discussion about this a few months ago. I failed to
> > notice a conclusion.).
>
> I believe the conclusion was "Books don't say.....but it better not
> be or else 90% of their fiction is wrong, which is worse than usual"

Hm... ok. :)

> > Has anyone noticed how utterly devastating running through a ward
> > with a few active foci, quickened spells etc. is?
>
> Yup. EGMG Note that the creation rules for wards severally limit
> their force. Too many GM's forget this.

Mmm... I thought the rules were slightly ambiguous. I interpreted
them like this:

Get materials, line up the area, cast the ward at max of magic rating
* 2 force. For each success (TN force) it lasts one day.. that won't
be long if it's rating 6+, of course, but most major corps can afford
to have it reinforced daily... 11+ force is highly unlikely, though.
The exact nature of the rating was ambiguous, and I assumed it meant
rating=duration and force=force.

Which doesn't severely limit their force.. unless you haven't got a
huge budget, of course. It's the exact opposite of watcher
summoning.. hm.. which is odd.. ok, any other ways to interpret the
ward rules?

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost

From:	GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject:	Re: Rules question: Permanently conjuring elementals (and then s
Date:	Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:00:20 -0700

Message no. 3 > I have seen references to a rule where you can summon elementals
> permanently by paying karma equal to force - they gain 'unlimited
> services' until the elemental is destroyed. Force can be restored by
> resummoning the elemental - this does not require additional karma.

Actually..this is called an Ally..And detailed discriptions and
rules can be found on pgs 67-72 of the Grimmy..

> I am unable to find a reference to this in the books. Can I then
> assume this is a house rule, or is it somewhere I haven't looked?

It is somewhere you haven't looked..probably because you were looking
under summoning and elementals..

> Can a free spirit inhibiting a homonucili hide its life in the
> homonocili?(sp?)

I suppose it could..but it probably would he better served hiding it
is secret and remote place..somewhere it is not likely to be
attacked..

> How important is the flesh to an astral image?

Not important at all..My magically active folk rarely look anything
like their flesh..having a much different self image than their
flesh..my shaman are more likely to have animalistic self images
though..

> ... is that about it?

that works well..ANd should be easier for you to discribe to your
players..

> Can personal barriers only be cast as a 'dome' spell centered at the
> caster? (I have assumed so.).

As they are personal in nature I have always imagined them as
conforming to the surface of the aura..And roughly humanoid in
shape..Assuming caste by a humanoid..if a dragon had caste it it
would of course be dragonoid in shape..

> I also assume barriers do not move with the caster.

Well that all depends on the barrier and the intent of the
casting..If it is a personal bullet barrier..Naturally it should move
about as the character moves about.. if it is a physical or mana
barrier I would say the barrier is where the caster put it and does
not move..

> Is LOS required for sustaining a spell?
> (There was a discussion about this a few months ago. I failed to
> notice a conclusion.).

If LOS is a requirement of the spell..If for instace a caster is
using Claraudience[extended range]..the answer is no..

> Has anyone noticed how utterly devastating running through a ward
> with a few active foci, quickened spells etc. is?

I am not sure what you mean by devastating..Usually active foci and
such simply will not go through an active ward..this of course
depends on the ward..

--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
===============================================
Kind of a bummer. Gettin' your butt kicked by a dead guy.
- Lt Col McQueen
The truth is a three edged sword. - Kosh
No Matter Where You Go, There You Are. - B.Bonsai

From:	Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject:	Re: Rules question: Permanently conjuring elementals (and then s
Date:	Sat, 28 Feb 1998 08:43:42 +0000

Message no. 4 > > I have seen references to a rule where you can summon elementals
> > permanently by paying karma equal to force - they gain 'unlimited
> > services' until the elemental is destroyed. Force can be restored by
> > resummoning the elemental - this does not require additional karma.
>
> Actually..this is called an Ally..And detailed discriptions and
> rules can be found on pgs 67-72 of the Grimmy..

Hmm.. no, I'm fairly sure it's an elemental. (Yes I know the Ally
rules.). But then, in other words, your answer is, 'No, summoning
elementals for karma is a house rule and not in the books'.

> > Has anyone noticed how utterly devastating running through a ward
> > with a few active foci, quickened spells etc. is?
>
> I am not sure what you mean by devastating..Usually active foci and
> such simply will not go through an active ward..this of course
> depends on the ward..

Actually, the ward rules state that attempting to bring a magically
active construct - sustained spell, quickening, foci - into a warded
area gives an immediate opposed test between the items and the ward.
Whatever wins survive. Entering while astrally perceiving or
projecting is impossible without first destroying the ward.

That's what I meant by devastating.
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Rules question: Permanently conjuring elementals (and then s
Date:	Sat, 28 Feb 1998 14:50:08 +0100

Message no. 5 Fade said on 22:44/27 Feb 98...

> I have seen references to a rule where you can summon elementals
> permanently by paying karma equal to force - they gain 'unlimited
> services' until the elemental is destroyed. Force can be restored by
> resummoning the elemental - this does not require additional karma.

This is hidden in the Astral Security text on page 91 of the Grimoire.
Such elementals don't gain unlimited services, but they are bound to watch
(guard) a certain site until they are banished or killed.

> I am unable to find a reference to this in the books. Can I then
> assume this is a house rule, or is it somewhere I haven't looked?

It's in an illogical place; I'd expect this sort of rule to appear in the
chapter on spirits.

> Can a free spirit inhibiting a homonucili hide its life in the
> homonocili?(sp?)

I think so. The homunculus is an object, and Hidden Life allows the spirit
to hide its life in "some place or thing."

> How important is the flesh to an astral image?
> (In regard to where the person thinks or feels him or herself very
> different from their flesh. Keywords might be homosexuality, some
> shamans, etcetera.).

Your astral image is your idealized self-image, so I don't really think
your meat body is very relevant here.

> Can personal barriers only be cast as a 'dome' spell centered at the
> caster? (I have assumed so.).

It's annoying that SR doesn't say _anything_ about this. I've ruled that
they "wrap around" the caster as a second skin, instead of forming a dome
or wall.

> I also assume barriers do not move with the caster.

In my game they do move with the caster, but can get snagged behind
obstacles. We had a pretty big discussion about this a few months ago, so
you could check the logs.

> Is LOS required for sustaining a spell?
> (There was a discussion about this a few months ago. I failed to
> notice a conclusion.).

According to some fiction parts of sourcebooks and novels, no, but IIRC
there's no rule that says so. IMHO you don't need LOS to sustain a spell,
only to actually cast it.

> If it is, will an elemental sustaining a spell have to remain within
> the caster's LOS? (Could an elemental sustain the spell without
> having to stay in the caster's LOS, in other words. I think not, but
> it'd be nice if it was that way.).

Elementals have to be in LOS of the caster to perform their services
(except Remote Service), period.

> Has anyone noticed how utterly devastating running through a ward
> with a few active foci, quickened spells etc. is?

As in "The ward gets an attack against each focus"? The question I've been
wondering about is whether the focus can pass the ward if it fails to
defeat it... All the Grimoire and SRII say is that the ward gets an
attack, but it doesn't say what happens if the focus isn't destroyed.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
They say they know what's best for me.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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From:	Ashlocke <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Rules question: Permanently conjuring elementals (and then s
Date:	Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:11:52 -0005

Message no. 6 On 27 Feb 98 at 22:44, Fade wrote:

> I have a few questions I would like answered, or at least discussed.
>

<snip binding spirits to a site>

> I am unable to find a reference to this in the books. Can I then
> assume this is a house rule, or is it somewhere I haven't looked?

GRII, under Astral Security, p91-92

>
> Can a free spirit inhibiting a homonucili hide its life in the
> homonocili?(sp?)

Don't see why it couldn't.

>
> How important is the flesh to an astral image?

Not much apparently. Only reference that comes to mind about it is that
the Astral body is an idealized self image... then they go on with the
example of the old man who is super-guy on the astral and his boneheaded
apprentice who is a comparative wimp on the astral. And then mentions ork
shaman as being scary.

>
> I imagine astral space somewhat like this:

<snip description>

Works for me.

>
> Can personal barriers only be cast as a 'dome' spell centered at the
> caster? (I have assumed so.).

personal barriers fit like a second skin on the target of the spell
(which does not have to be the caster).

>
> I also assume barriers do not move with the caster.

Why? Nothing in the rules prohibits it. I've heard the assumption
before and I wonder how much of it is an AD$D carry over where walls of
force and the like don't move. There's nothing in SR to indicate
sustained spell effects cannot be moved by the caster. And there are some
cases where it is clear the effect does move (telekinetic manipulations
for example). There are other examples where the rules don't say, but it
seems to make sense that the effect could be moved (the Light spell for
example). Something else to be clarified in SR3 I hope.

>
> Is LOS required for sustaining a spell?
> (There was a discussion about this a few months ago. I failed to
> notice a conclusion.).

No. LOS is only considered during spell casting, no where in any SR book
does it say, mention or even imply that sustaining a spell requires LOS of
any kind.

>
> If it is, will an elemental sustaining a spell have to remain within the
> caster's LOS? (Could an elemental sustain the spell without having to
> stay in the caster's LOS, in other words. I think not, but it'd be nice
> if it was that way.).

Oh gaaah the "elemental LOS" thing. Something else that needs
clarification in SR3. Officially nobody knows what happens if an
elemental goes out of the controlling mage's LOS, the rules aren't clear.
However, there are plenty of house rules on the subject.
--
@>->,-`---
Ashelock
o=<======-

GM's Theme: "I am the eye in the sky, looking at you, I can see your lies.
I am the maker of rules, dealing in fools, I can cheat you blind."

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