Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: james@****.uow.edu.au (James Niall Zealey)
Subject: Rules tweaks (was Re: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore)
Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2004 09:16:37 +1000
> Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
>>The only real problem that opposed tests have is when the modifiers get
>>too high, noone succeeds
>
>
> I tend to see the reverse problem: if you have a character with Negotiation
> 8 haggling with someone who has Negotiation 2, the first one needs to roll
> 2s on eight dice while the other one needs 8s on two dice. No points for
> guessing who'll come out on top. Not that this is wholly unexpected, of
> course, but it does take away much of the risk in using things like forged
> IDs or maglock passkeys, where if you get a rating 6 or so you'll hardly
> ever have any problems with scanners, because most you'll encounter will
> be rating 3 or 4 or so. I've been meaning to try out Graht's house rule of
> having both sides roll against a 4 regardless of the other's rating, but I
> haven't got round to it yet.
>

Well, the problem I was alluding to is that if you've got a pair of
guys, and the modifiers on each of them push their TN's above about 12.

Even if one of them is after 20s and the other is after 13s, the chance
of neither of them rolling a single success is very high indeed, yet one
of them has almost twice the TN of the other.

If you're talking about a rating 6 passkey or ID vs a scanner at 4, you
expect it to work almost all the time. You're talking about a good ID vs
an average scanner. Personally I don't think that making the player's
time harder on that one is a good idea - it just makes the "blow open
the door and do it quick" option way, way, way more attractive than the
stealth version.

However if you're talking about a rating 18 ID vs a rating 12 scanner, I
want those 6 points of rating to make a genuine difference.
Message no. 2
From: jcotton1@*********.net (jcotton1@*********.net)
Subject: Rules tweaks (was Re: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 1:32:26 -0400
> From: James Niall Zealey <james@****.uow.edu.au>
>
> However if you're talking about a rating 18 ID vs a rating 12 scanner, I
> want those 6 points of rating to make a genuine difference.

This is a problem I've always had with SR, unfortunately, as well as the
"breakpoint" problem -- i.e., 7 is the same as a 6, 13 same as 12, etc. I much
preferred EarthDawn's step system. If I were more ambitious and had a better grasp of
statistics :), I'd take a stab at translating skills etc into that. Plus, then I'd get to
use all those neat polyhedral dice I have lying about. :)

Joseph M. Cotton
"There are only two stories in all of literature -- a man goes on a journey, and a
stranger comes to town." Leo Tolstoy
Message no. 3
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod@*******.net)
Subject: Rules tweaks (was Re: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore)
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:53:59 -0700
jcotton1@*********.net wrote:
>
> This is a problem I've always had with SR, unfortunately, as
> well as the "breakpoint" problem -- i.e., 7 is the same as a
> 6, 13 same as 12, etc. I much preferred EarthDawn's step
> system. If I were more ambitious and had a better grasp of
> statistics :), I'd take a stab at translating skills etc into
> that. Plus, then I'd get to use all those neat polyhedral
> dice I have lying about. :)
>


Actually, if you really want to make things simple, just subtract one from
the number rolled and use the D5 system. Whenever you roll a 6 (now 5) you
reroll and add the new result (-1) so you won't ever have 6=7, 12, etc
etc etc. And then you could have a minimum target number of 1, if you like.
That way, there's no need to roll different dice, or come up with a lot of
complicated rules.

Zeb

<a
href="http://www.spreadfirefox.com/community/?q¯filiates&amp;id621&amp;t
=1">Get Firefox!</a>
Message no. 4
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Rules tweaks (was Re: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 10:52:50 +0200
According to jcotton1@*********.net, on Friday 01 October 2004 07:32 the
word on the street was...

> I much preferred EarthDawn's step system. If I were more ambitious and
> had a better grasp of statistics :), I'd take a stab at translating
> skills etc into that. Plus, then I'd get to use all those neat
> polyhedral dice I have lying about. :)

Ages ago, I helped some people from the old ED list (is that still around)
out a bit with converting SR to use ED's rules. Unfortunately I don't have
any of the files anymore :( They did a pretty good job, but where to find
what they prodcuced...?

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
+--The end is here
|-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
|-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-
|
|GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
|O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
|Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
V
Message no. 5
From: jcotton1@*********.net (Joseph Cotton)
Subject: Rules tweaks (was Re: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 09:17:21 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: zebulingod@*******.net
> Actually, if you really want to make things simple, just
> subtract one from the number rolled and use the D5 system.
> [...]
> That way, there's no need to roll different dice[.]

Yeah, but I *like* rolling different dice. :) Actually, I remember
one buddy of mine coming up with the D5 "fix" as well, but I had
forgotten about it. And I think the only complicated rule would
probably be figuring out how to redefine the target numbers, for the
most part. Don't hold me to that one, though, 'cos I'm really rusty
on the ED system.

Joe Cotton
Message no. 6
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: Rules tweaks (was Re: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 10:21:02 -0300
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 22:53:59 -0700, zebulingod@*******.net
<zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:
>
> Actually, if you really want to make things simple, just subtract one from
> the number rolled and use the D5 system. Whenever you roll a 6 (now 5) you
> reroll and add the new result (-1) so you won't ever have 6=7, 12, etc
> etc etc. And then you could have a minimum target number of 1, if you like.
> That way, there's no need to roll different dice, or come up with a lot of
> complicated rules.
>
> Zeb

An option that seems more and more attractive to me is ditching
variable target numbers and making everyone roll against a 4 or 5 all
the time, converting TN modifiers into dice penalties or bonuses.

--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
Message no. 7
From: jcotton1@*********.net (Joseph Cotton)
Subject: Rules tweaks (was Re: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 09:27:35 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bira
> An option that seems more and more attractive to me is ditching
> variable target numbers and making everyone roll against a 4 or 5
all
> the time, converting TN modifiers into dice penalties or bonuses.

Hmmmmm. Does this mean that if you have, for example, a skill (or
rating, for equipment) of 5, and the penalty (modifier) is 5 or
greater, you have no chance? Or do you always have 1 die, and
therefore always have a chance to do something, no matter how
ridiculous? Or does it have to be a "GM's call" thing when you get
out on the margins?

Joe Cotton
Message no. 8
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: Rules tweaks (was Re: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 10:43:13 -0300
On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 09:27:35 -0400, Joseph Cotton <jcotton1@*********.net> wrote:
> Hmmmmm. Does this mean that if you have, for example, a skill (or
> rating, for equipment) of 5, and the penalty (modifier) is 5 or
> greater, you have no chance?

If you use the new World of Darkness system as a guideline (since this
sort of thing is what they do there), you'd still get to roll one die.
If you get a 6, you got one success. If you get a one, you botch. This
would be the only way to botch.

You could also put some other details in place, like rerolling sixes
to see if you can get more successes, or doing away with pools and
having everyone roll Skill + Linked Attribute instead.



--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
Message no. 9
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Rules tweaks (was Re: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:24:34 -0700 (PDT)
--- Bira <u.alberton@*****.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 09:27:35 -0400, Joseph Cotton
> <jcotton1@*********.net> wrote:
> > Hmmmmm. Does this mean that if you have, for example, a skill
> (or
> > rating, for equipment) of 5, and the penalty (modifier) is 5 or
> > greater, you have no chance?
>
> If you use the new World of Darkness system as a guideline (since
> this
> sort of thing is what they do there), you'd still get to roll one
> die.
> If you get a 6, you got one success. If you get a one, you botch.
> This
> would be the only way to botch.
>
> You could also put some other details in place, like rerolling
> sixes
> to see if you can get more successes, or doing away with pools and
> having everyone roll Skill + Linked Attribute instead.

We are back to where we started with this. Why reinvent a game you
don't even want to play?

What you have just described is as alien to SR as adding Alignment
ratings or saying mages cannot wear armor because kevlar interupts
their connection to mana. Mechanics are part and parcel of the
flavor of a game. SR is built around a certain set of mechanics, and
contrary to the dominant theme of this thread, they work really well
(all you need is a GM and players who want to make them work).

If you don't want to play Shadowrun, don't. Write your own
cyber-magic-punk adaptation of WoD. Or D20. Or whatever. If you
are going to play Shadowrun, then do. Learn the system, make the
minor tweaks you and your players like, and focus on building a
shared image of the game world everyone in the game can visualize.

Maybe I am having a bad day, but when you start suggesting that SR
could be "fixed" by using Vampire: The Masquerade 1st Edition rules,
I get a little twitchy.

NO rule set will address every possible question of mechanics right
off the shelf and out of the starting gate. GM and players have to
become familiar and comfortable enough with any given rule set that
they can adapt when the odd situations arise. Beyond that, the real
issue is visualizing the setting. If you can't get into the genre,
and don't enjoy the themes, mechanics won't matter.

In the end, this is why I oppose any move to D20, WoD, or other dice
mechanics. Even ED mechanics are not the answer for SR. They work
for ED, and in that setting, I love them. For SR, I use the SR
system. Any and all house rules/tweaks build on and within the
existing mechanics. Period. Once the basic mechanics are understood
by all players in the game, they fade away and the focus is the
setting, mood, and storyline.

To play SR or not to play SR, that is the question. Because in my
very far from humble opinion, it ain't broke, quit trying to fix it.

======Korishinzo
--rolling Charisma + Shadowrun Zeal and spending 2 temporary Karma
points for automatic successes... specialized in Harangue, so
re-rolling any 6's for additional successes









__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Message no. 10
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Rules tweaks (was Re: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 10:01:25 -0600
On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:24:34 -0700 (PDT), Ice Heart <korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:
>
> We are back to where we started with this. Why reinvent a game you
> don't even want to play?

Because you want to play it? ;)

Also, keep in mind that we also like to casually talk about how the
rules/dice could be changed. Most of the time someone points out why
a proposed rule change is a Bad (TM) idea.

> What you have just described is as alien to SR as adding Alignment
> ratings or saying mages cannot wear armor because kevlar interupts
> their connection to mana. Mechanics are part and parcel of the
> flavor of a game. SR is built around a certain set of mechanics, and
> contrary to the dominant theme of this thread, they work really well
> (all you need is a GM and players who want to make them work).

Agreed, they do work well, but...

> Maybe I am having a bad day, but when you start suggesting that SR
> could be "fixed" by using Vampire: The Masquerade 1st Edition rules,
> I get a little twitchy.

I think that the suggestion was to look at other systems for ideas,
not to use the other systems.

> NO rule set will address every possible question of mechanics right
> off the shelf and out of the starting gate.

Except for diceless systems of course (sorry, couldn't resist ;)


> GM and players have to
> become familiar and comfortable enough with any given rule set that
> they can adapt when the odd situations arise. Beyond that, the real
> issue is visualizing the setting. If you can't get into the genre,
> and don't enjoy the themes, mechanics won't matter.

True. But on the flip side, if you can get into the genre and enjoy
the themes flaws in the mechanics can and do matter. I know I've
bought several games because theme was cool, but gave up because the
mechanics failed miserably.

> To play SR or not to play SR, that is the question. Because in my
> very far from humble opinion, it ain't broke, quit trying to fix it.

But one of the points raised is that there are things in Shadowrun
that are broken (or aren't up to par). The basic mechanic (roll d6 vs
a TN, count the number of dice that succeed, and use the number of
successes to determine the level of succes) works great. One flaw is
the 6=7. There are two good (IMHO) fixes to this, use the d5 rule, or
use d8 numbered 0-7. Another flaw is that the system falls apart
after target numbers get (or start) beyond a certain point. Using TN
modifers to modify the number of dice rolled instead of the TN is an
interesting idea, and quite frankly I would like to see more
discussion.

I will be playing Shadowrun again. I would like to play a better game :)

--
-Graht
Message no. 11
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Rules tweaks (was Re: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 09:50:51 -0700 (PDT)
> Also, keep in mind that we also like to casually talk about how the
> rules/dice could be changed. Most of the time someone points out
> why a proposed rule change is a Bad (TM) idea.

True. Perhaps I am just cranky today. Sleepless night, stupid
people operating vehicles on the same road as me, a satellite
broadband connection at work that likes to say "oh no, humidity!" and
shut down at critical moments... :)

> > NO rule set will address every possible question of mechanics
> > right off the shelf and out of the starting gate.
>
> Except for diceless systems of course (sorry, couldn't resist ;)

LOL. My gaming group was woefully incapable of wrapping their heads
around Amber. Had one guy who got it... he sort of crushed everyone
else. :p
Oddly enough, I have run dice-based games in a somewhat diceless mode
and had terrific success.
What I do is sit down with each player and make a character with
them, glossing over creation mechanics in favor of getting the
character image/concept down. Once I have a balanced starting
character made, I create an abstract for them. It has NO numbers on
it, only relative descriptions stating how approximately far from
average a given skill or stat is, as well as how they
learned/attained it. The only number they have are on their
inventory sheet.
During play, I roll all dice for actions they state. In SR it might
go something like this.

Player: I want to shoot the ganger with my Uzi.
Me: Okay, he is ducking behind cover, but your smartlink is helping
you reacquire him pretty well. Is this a skill shot, or are you
going to try and anticipate him a little, relying on ability?
Player: Hmm... I want cover too... I'll rely on ability some, try and
lead the guy.
Me: Smartlink says you are firing burst mode right now, keeping that?
Player: umm, yea, two bursts.
Me: <quickly checking skill and pool, rolling some dice> Okay,
here's what happens...

Almost 100% of the time, players start really roleplaying, using
terrain, equipment, and skills more intelligently. It is a lot more
work for me, and sometimes I will fudge a bit, just grabbing a half
dozen dice and rolling to get a feel for the relative degree of
success. This is to keep things moving, and I never penalize PCs
when I do this. I started doing this back in 2nd Ed AD&D, and have
tried it with WoD, ED, WEG Star Wars, StarTrek: TNG, Marvel, Ars
Magica, and SR.

It is especially effective with new players to a game system. They
have no preconceived notions of what should or should not be tried
from a mechanics standpoint. All they have is an idea of what sounds
rational to try, based on equipment and skillset descriptions.

> True. But on the flip side, if you can get into the genre and
> enjoy the themes flaws in the mechanics can and do matter. I know
> I've bought several games because theme was cool, but gave up
> because the mechanics failed miserably.

Ugh. I can agree with this. Palladium Games in general. :)

> But one of the points raised is that there are things in Shadowrun
> that are broken (or aren't up to par). The basic mechanic (roll d6
> vs a TN, count the number of dice that succeed, and use the number
> of successes to determine the level of succes) works great. One
> flaw is the 6=7. There are two good (IMHO) fixes to this, use the
> d5 rule, or use d8 numbered 0-7. Another flaw is that the system
> falls apart after target numbers get (or start) beyond a certain
> point. Using TN modifers to modify the number of dice rolled
> instead of the TN is an interesting idea, and quite frankly I would
> like to see more discussion.

Actually, I don't consider the 6=7 issue a breaking point of the
game. Diffculty curves don't have to be linear, nor do they have to
be smooth. Why can't you have area along the curve where the
marginal change is so minimal that the curve appears to flatten out,
or plateau? This happens all the time in real life. You end up with
a 'stepped' curve, but this is not unrealistic or problematic in my
opinion.

The TN mod --> dice mod conversion is not necessarily a bad idea. I
was reall taking issue with the attribute + skill dice pool
suggestion. :)

However, in genreral, I find that the TN system is a good indicator
of stupid ideas.
"I want to shoot the Vindicator from my hip at the the sprinting
ganger at the end of a cluttered alley while jogging through a cloud
of thermal smoke."
"Ummm... your TN is 23."
"Darn. I wish this was a game system that didn't suck. I could do
it Palladium."
"Well, actually, you can try it here too... your odds, however, or
rather bad."
Once TN get up into the 12+ range, players ought to consider that
their character's common sense kicks in and looks for some options to
work around what is clearly an improbable attempt.
I find that wise players look at anything over an 8 TN and start
thinking, "hmmm... how can I cut down my liability here?"
Someone made reference earlier in this thread to a rating 12 ID and a
rating 18 scanner. What is the point? Most of my players have IDs
rated about 4-6, and maybe one good rating 8 to run and hide with if
things go badly. Most scanners are rating 3-5, with the occasional 8
right where you know it will cause the most tension/drama in the
story. After that, you are just getting ridiculous. Rating 12 ID?
Who made it, the entire sysop crew at Shadowland, working around the
clock for a year?!?
A rating 18 scanner? WTF is it protecting, naked pictures of Lofwyr
from before he hit the big time?
Frag, people, the versimilitude and challenge of the game are not
maintained by raising ratings and TNs. They are maintained by
increasing the layers and complexity in plots and supporting cast.

> I will be playing Shadowrun again. I would like to play a better
> game :)

Come sit in mine.

Call it arrogance, but I think you'll find that the machanics are
irrelevant in a well run game. :)

======Korishinzo
--High TN are not evil... giving the security guard somebody just
shot a 'black-sheep-of-the-family' sibling who left in huff to work
for the Triads, but still loves her brother... that is evil. :>




_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
Message no. 12
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: Rules tweaks (was Re: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 14:01:32 -0300
On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:24:34 -0700 (PDT), Ice Heart <korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:
> We are back to where we started with this. Why reinvent a game you
> don't even want to play?

Because I met some really good players and got to know some really
good games, which made me a lot less insular than I played Shadowrun
to the exclusion of everything else.

If you don't think it's broke, just stay out of discussions about
alternate mechanics. I think this one in particular is labeled clearly
enough that you can just delete its messages without reading them, and
save yourself a lot of stress.

I'll keep talking about this because it's what I want to talk about.
There seem to be other people who want to discuss it, too. If you
don't, don't try to stop other people from talking.



--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
Message no. 13
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: Rules tweaks (was Re: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 14:03:21 -0300
> Because I met some really good players and got to know some really
> good games, which made me a lot less insular than ***when*** I played
> Shadowrun to the exclusion of everything else.

Yeah, replying to yourself is lame, but I missed a word on the
original message. It's added to the quote, along with a lot of
asterisks to mark it out.

--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
Message no. 14
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Rules tweaks (was Re: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 10:21:37 -0700 (PDT)
--- Bira <u.alberton@*****.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 08:24:34 -0700 (PDT), Ice Heart
> <korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:
> > We are back to where we started with this. Why reinvent a game
> you
> > don't even want to play?
>
> Because I met some really good players and got to know some really
> good games, which made me a lot less insular than I played
> Shadowrun
> to the exclusion of everything else.
>
> If you don't think it's broke, just stay out of discussions about
> alternate mechanics. I think this one in particular is labeled
> clearly
> enough that you can just delete its messages without reading them,
> and
> save yourself a lot of stress.
>
> I'll keep talking about this because it's what I want to talk
> about.
> There seem to be other people who want to discuss it, too. If you
> don't, don't try to stop other people from talking.

Let me apologize for the tone of my previous post to this thread. I
was cranky this morning. I did not mean to attack you, but was
trying to point out that we keep coming back to the same point. A
lot of people on this list are fans of the SR community, but seem to
not like the game. Some dislike the setting. Others dislike the
mechanics. I think that the solutions presented for both problems
have all involved reworking fundamental underpinnings of the game.
My post was a clumsy (and cranky) attempt to make clear my opinion
that changing such fundamental elements of the game constitutes
effectively changing games entirely. In the end, playability of a
game lies in the mindset of the people trying to play. That is all I
was saying. I apologize for the rest. :)

======Korishinzo
--the invitation stands... find your way to my gaming table, and I
will change your view of the game





__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Message no. 15
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Rules tweaks (was Re: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 19:42:32 +0200
According to Bira, on Friday 01 October 2004 19:01 the word on the street
was...

> Because I met some really good players and got to know some really
> good games, which made me a lot less insular than I played Shadowrun
> to the exclusion of everything else.

That sounds like an attitude I see quite a lot, but it's not usually SR
that's the cause of it (mostly it's people used only to d20 or whatever
who need exposure to other games, not SR players).

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
+--The end is here
|-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
|-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-
|
|GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
|O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
|Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
V
Message no. 16
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Rules tweaks (was Re: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 10:49:22 -0700 (PDT)
--- Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:

> > Because I met some really good players and got to know some
> > really good games, which made me a lot less insular than when I
> > played Shadowrun to the exclusion of everything else.

> That sounds like an attitude I see quite a lot, but it's not
> usually SR that's the cause of it (mostly it's people used only to
> d20 or whatever who need exposure to other games, not SR players).

I think it is an attitude quite seperate of the game played, lying in
the person instead. I have seen table top gamers have it towards CCG
gamers, or LARPers, or computers gamers... and I have seen the
reverse as well. I have, in fact, seen just about every permutation
of geek elitism, gamer segregation, and nerd isolationism there is.
Insular is a factor of personality, not choice of past time. :)

That said, gaming should be approached much like life...

Try everything... twice.

======Korishinzo
--Zen and the Art of Geek Social Interaction :p



_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
Message no. 17
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod@*******.net)
Subject: Rules tweaks (was Re: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 10:58:47 -0700
Ice Heart wrote:

> <SNIP> Rating 12 ID?
> Who made it, the entire sysop crew at Shadowland, working
> around the clock for a year?!?
> A rating 18 scanner? WTF is it protecting, naked pictures of
> Lofwyr from before he hit the big time?
> Frag, people, the versimilitude and challenge of the game are
> not maintained by raising ratings and TNs. They are
> maintained by increasing the layers and complexity in plots
> and supporting cast.
>


Kori, you...wow. The absolute barrage of imagery is horrifying and funny all
at the same time.

Zeb
Message no. 18
From: msde_shadowrn@*****.com (Mark S)
Subject: Rules tweaks (was Re: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore)
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 18:28:48 -0700 (PDT)
--- Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
> According to Bira, on Friday 01 October 2004 19:01 the word on the
> street
> was...
>
> > Because I met some really good players and got to know some really
> > good games, which made me a lot less insular than I played
> Shadowrun
> > to the exclusion of everything else.
>
> That sounds like an attitude I see quite a lot, but it's not usually
> SR
> that's the cause of it (mostly it's people used only to d20 or
> whatever
> who need exposure to other games, not SR players).

I see it everywhere including SR, and I'm guilty of it at times too.
It's a pretty universal attitude.

My pet SR gripe is TN 5 vs. TN 6. Have someone roll 5 dice vs. 6 dice
at TN 4, and the person with 6 dice will win the majority of the time,
but the person with 5 dice will get lucky and win quite a few. Have
someone role an opposed test of 5 dice @ TN 6 vs. 6 dice @ TN 5, and
the person with only 5 dice is almost never going to get lucky.

5 vs. 6 is a big jump compared to anything else, and it encourages too
many 6s at character creation.

My other related gripe is that Negotiation 6 gets you nowhere if you
have a low willpower. It's a skill, you shouldn't need nerves of steel
and the ability to resist stun damage in a skill that can even be
performed via e-mail.

Mark

OT - I heard a pretty nasty bargaining trick the other day in a Chinese
cultural setting:

A: 500.
B: 300.
A: 400.
B: 400 is an unlucky number. (just like in Japanese, 4 sounds like
death)
A: 380.




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Message no. 19
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Rules tweaks (was Re: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore)
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 11:25:58 +0200
According to Mark S, on Saturday 02 October 2004 03:28 the word on the
street was...

> My other related gripe is that Negotiation 6 gets you nowhere if you
> have a low willpower. It's a skill, you shouldn't need nerves of steel
> and the ability to resist stun damage in a skill that can even be
> performed via e-mail.

Perhaps true, but OTOH if you have low Willpower you will tend to give in
more quickly, and so will lose more in negotiations. IMHO it's also good
from a game perspective, because this way it doesn't depend on a single
stat but on different, and otherwise unrelated, ones.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
+--The end is here
|-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
|-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-
|
|GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
|O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
|Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
V

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Rules tweaks (was Re: Why I Don't Play Shadowrun Anymore), you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.