Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Runner Morals - More Questions!
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 23:23:39 -0800 (PST)
*snort*

Right, Kawaii, you go trying to prove that someone
didn't die when the plane's scattered across a mile of
mountains and tissue that's an exact DNA match for
their's (clonal) is found in the wreckage. ;)

Anyway...

> > Personally, while my characters are not morally
against killing people to achieve their ends, it is
just bad business. The easier way is just to find a
squatter of your metatype, hire a good dentist,
plastic surgeon, and blow him away in your favorite
uniform. :)

Right, and if someone is keen to make sure you're
really dead and can do DNA matching or ritual
tracking?

Never mind - this belongs in that OTHER discussion.

> Man your a prick, but a smart one :) My entire
roll-playing buddies hate me because I tend to play
the guy that "hates killing".Man they get so pissed
off when I won't blow somebody away. I love to play a
moral character with these people because it's never
crossed their minds and it adds flavor and reality.
Plus what's the point? There's got to be hundreds of
ways to fake it, all without taking somebody with you.
It's all about style.
> Josh

Hah. Style is taking 400 people with you - and not
really dying! :)

Anyway, seeing as you guys seem to intend to answer my
example, here's another one. Your target, a corp suit
whose wife wants him offed rather than having to go
through a messy divorce, has taken a hostage, Joe
Nobody. You're holding a Barrett sniper rifle with
depleted uranium ammo. You KNOW your round will go
right through both Joe and the target, but that the
chances of JUST killing the target are next to
nil...but if you DON'T take the shot, he'll get away.
Do you shoot?

What if your target is a terrorist with a bomb that'll
wipe out half the city if you don't kill him? What if
the hostage is a kid? What if they're a teammate, or
your mother, or your sister, or your lover? What if
they're your greatest rival? What if it's Kyle
Haeffner - good ol' Pres?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/
Message no. 2
From: Michael Schmidt Michael.Schmidt@****.uni-hannover.de
Subject: Runner Morals - More Questions!
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:50:31 +0100 (MET)
On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, Rand Ratinac wrote:

> Right, and if someone is keen to make sure you're
> really dead and can do DNA matching or ritual
> tracking?

Then he needs a sample of your DNA, so just make sure you work clean.

> Hah. Style is taking 400 people with you - and not
> really dying! :)

Style is to do it silently, you are a shadowrunner, not a street punk, are
you.

If you take out a skyscraper with a bomb leaving nothing other than a
bunch of carbo-organic chemicals which can no longer proof you are really
dead, you can devide you opponents in two groups:

1) The dumb ones: Oh, now he`s dead, nobody can survive this kind of
explosion.

2) The keen ones: Oh, 400 dead people and no proof he was
really there... Why did this explosion occure, who could make an advantage
of it ? How many resources are free to find him, if he`s still alive ?

> Anyway, seeing as you guys seem to intend to answer my
> example, here's another one. Your target, a corp suit
> whose wife wants him offed rather than having to go
> through a messy divorce, has taken a hostage, Joe
> Nobody. You're holding a Barrett sniper rifle with
> depleted uranium ammo. You KNOW your round will go
> right through both Joe and the target, but that the
> chances of JUST killing the target are next to
> nil...but if you DON'T take the shot, he'll get away.
> Do you shoot?

I am skilled... at least more than my target, I will find him.
But if there is a chance he will get away for good. <Pull trigger> ( If
the price is right, I won`t kill for free. )

> What if your target is a terrorist with a bomb that'll
> wipe out half the city if you don't kill him? What if
> the hostage is a kid? What if they're a teammate, or
> your mother, or your sister, or your lover? What if
> they're your greatest rival? What if it's Kyle
> Haeffner - good ol' Pres?

As I said before, only a question of the price: 10 Survivors, 1 Dead is a
good price.

Michael Schmidt

Icewolf
Message no. 3
From: Martin Steffens marste@*********.com
Subject: Runner Morals - More Questions!
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 06:50:49 -0800
From: Rand Ratinac [mailto:docwagon101@*****.com]

> Anyway, seeing as you guys seem to intend to answer my
> example, here's another one. Your target, a corp suit
> whose wife wants him offed rather than having to go
> through a messy divorce, has taken a hostage, Joe
> Nobody. You're holding a Barrett sniper rifle with
> depleted uranium ammo. You KNOW your round will go
> right through both Joe and the target, but that the
> chances of JUST killing the target are next to
> nil...but if you DON'T take the shot, he'll get away.
> Do you shoot?

No question about it, unless he pays much better >:).

> What if your target is a terrorist with a bomb that'll
> wipe out half the city if you don't kill him? What if
> the hostage is a kid?

Bang! for most PCs I've GMed or played.

> What if they're a teammate, or your mother, or your
> sister, or your lover?

Probably not, although they might come up with the
"Aim for the hostage's shoulder and then after they drop,
shoot the target" trick. Although one PC wouldn't
hesitate and just off them as well.

> What if they're your greatest rival?

The hostage? Pump in a few extra rounds I guess :).
If you mean your greatest rival holds say your lover
hostage I don't know that many PCs who would shoot.

But then again, in one case that rival did already
kill a lot of friends and relatives and the PC did
kill his lover to get to him, but that was more
damage control than anything else. Plus he never
really got attached to people apart from his family.

> What if it's Kyle Haeffner - good ol' Pres?

Probably not, although it would be interesting :).
Too much trouble afterwards with all those feds gunning
for you.

Martin
-
Message no. 4
From: Jonathan Choy jjchoy@*********.net
Subject: Runner Morals - More Questions!
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:00:16 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rand Ratinac" <docwagon101@*****.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: 29 November 2000 2:23 AM
Subject: Re: Runner Morals - More Questions!


> *snort*
>
> Right, Kawaii, you go trying to prove that someone
> didn't die when the plane's scattered across a mile of
> mountains and tissue that's an exact DNA match for
> their's (clonal) is found in the wreckage. ;)
>
> Anyway...
>
> > > Personally, while my characters are not morally
> against killing people to achieve their ends, it is
> just bad business. The easier way is just to find a
> squatter of your metatype, hire a good dentist,
> plastic surgeon, and blow him away in your favorite
> uniform. :)
>
> Right, and if someone is keen to make sure you're
> really dead and can do DNA matching or ritual
> tracking?
>
> Never mind - this belongs in that OTHER discussion.
>
> > Man your a prick, but a smart one :) My entire
> roll-playing buddies hate me because I tend to play
> the guy that "hates killing".Man they get so pissed
> off when I won't blow somebody away. I love to play a
> moral character with these people because it's never
> crossed their minds and it adds flavor and reality.
> Plus what's the point? There's got to be hundreds of
> ways to fake it, all without taking somebody with you.
> It's all about style.
> > Josh
>
> Hah. Style is taking 400 people with you - and not
> really dying! :)
>
> Anyway, seeing as you guys seem to intend to answer my
> example, here's another one. Your target, a corp suit
> whose wife wants him offed rather than having to go
> through a messy divorce, has taken a hostage, Joe
> Nobody. You're holding a Barrett sniper rifle with
> depleted uranium ammo. You KNOW your round will go
> right through both Joe and the target, but that the
> chances of JUST killing the target are next to
> nil...but if you DON'T take the shot, he'll get away.
> Do you shoot?
>
> What if your target is a terrorist with a bomb that'll
> wipe out half the city if you don't kill him? What if
> the hostage is a kid? What if they're a teammate, or
> your mother, or your sister, or your lover? What if
> they're your greatest rival? What if it's Kyle
> Haeffner - good ol' Pres?
>
<quote ref="speed"> Shoot the hostage, take them out of the
equation</quote>

You use a fixed set of stats for the Barret 121 and blow the hostage-taker
away without hitting the hostage. (knock the damage code down to 8S or so
and give it many points of extra accuracy/scoping, making called shots
aronud hostages simpler).

On the other hand, if you're across the street from him holding nothing
better than a HK227... then your question becomes interesting

Tetsujin no Oni
Message no. 5
From: Jaster Jaster7663@****.com
Subject: Runner Morals - More Questions!
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:52:19 -0800
Doc Wrote-

--Anyway, seeing as you guys seem to intend to answer my
-example, here's another one. Your target, a corp suit
-whose wife wants him offed rather than having to go
-through a messy divorce, has taken a hostage, Joe
-Nobody. You're holding a Barrett sniper rifle with
-depleted uranium ammo. You KNOW your round will go
-right through both Joe and the target, but that the
-chances of JUST killing the target are next to
-nil...but if you DON'T take the shot, he'll get away.
-Do you shoot?
-
--What if your target is a terrorist with a bomb that'll
-wipe out half the city if you don't kill him? What if
-the hostage is a kid? What if they're a teammate, or
-your mother, or your sister, or your lover? What if
-they're your greatest rival? What if it's Kyle
-Haeffner - good ol' Pres?


Hmm..I'd take out my trusty two shot holdout pistol, shoot the hostage
in the leg, then take out the terrorist. >=P
(Courticy [no, as a matter of fact I *can't* spell...hopefully it's
just my imagination tho..^_^''] of a movie that I saw a long time ago,
can't remember the name though..I keep wanting to say it was that movie
Speed with Keanu Reeves or something/one..)
Message no. 6
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Runner Morals - More Questions!
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:57:16 -0800 (PST)
> > Right, and if someone is keen to make sure you're
really dead and can do DNA matching or ritual
tracking?
>
> Then he needs a sample of your DNA, so just make
sure you work clean.

Right - what if you're not a runner? What if you're a
corp wageslave and they have your DNA and a ritual
sample on file? What if you're an idiot runner who's
bought himself a DocWagon contract? (Yes, any serious
runner who gets a DocWagon contract is an IDIOT -
you're giving them both DNA traceable material AND a
ritual sample, and anyone who knows about it can try
to steal it - doesn't stop me from doing it, though :)
)?

> > Hah. Style is taking 400 people with you - and not
really dying! :)
>
> Style is to do it silently, you are a shadowrunner,
not a street punk, are you.

Bullshit. It all depends how ruthless you are and who
your enemies are, not whether you consider yourself a
shadowrunner. I was being facetious, but there are
times when you might have to take out a lot of people
to make something look convincing.

> If you take out a skyscraper with a bomb leaving
nothing other than a bunch of carbo-organic chemicals
which can no longer proof you are really dead, you can
devide you opponents in two groups:
>
> 1) The dumb ones: Oh, now he`s dead, nobody can
survive this kind of explosion.
>
> 2) The keen ones: Oh, 400 dead people and no proof
he was really there... Why did this explosion occure,
who could make an advantage of it ? How many resources
are free to find him, if he`s still alive ?
> Michael Schmidt

Right, sure. But what if that bomb was planted by a
group of terrorists with a very real grudge against
the owners of that building? And what if there's
plenty of circumstantial evidence that you WERE there?
You gotta do it right - you need to make yourself look
like a victim of circumstance, not the reason the
building went up.

Anyone ever wonder just who was in that building in
Oklahoma when it was blown up?

Okay, conspiracy theories aside, what if you're
apparently aboard a plane that goes down, killing
everyone aboard? What if, when people investigate,
they find that the cause was a mechanical malfunction
(and yes, that's something you could easily arrange
with the right know-how)? Boom, instant accidental
death.

Mass murder can be useful - but only if done right.

Now, just to be clear, I, personally, would never
consider something like this...but I have characters
who would. ;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/
Message no. 7
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Runner Morals - More Questions!
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:28:26 -0800 (PST)
<snipt!(TM)>
> > What if they're a teammate, or your mother, or
your sister, or your lover?
>
> Probably not, although they might come up with the
"Aim for the hostage's shoulder and then after they
drop, shoot the target" trick. Although one PC
wouldn't hesitate and just off them as well.

*lol*

Martin, did you read what gun I said you have? You
shoot them in the shoulder and you'll probably take
their shoulder, their arm, most of their torso and
quite possibly their head as well. :)

I suppose you could shoot them in the lower leg (after
all, they'd certainly fall when most of their leg
vanished) and replace it with a cloned one later, but
would you? :)

> > What if they're your greatest rival?
>
> The hostage? Pump in a few extra rounds I guess :).
If you mean your greatest rival holds say your lover
hostage I don't know that many PCs who would shoot.
> Martin

I actually meant the hostage, but either way works.

However, by "rival", I meant that guy on the other
runner team you've been trying to show up for years,
not the homicidal bastard who wants you dead and vice
versa. :)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/
Message no. 8
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Runner Morals - More Questions!
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:53:32 -0800 (PST)
<snipt!(TM)>
> <quote ref="speed"> Shoot the hostage, take them out
of the equation</quote>
>
> You use a fixed set of stats for the Barret 121 and
blow the hostage-taker away without hitting the
hostage. (knock the damage code down to 8S or so and
give it many points of extra accuracy/scoping, making
called shots aronud hostages simpler).
>
> On the other hand, if you're across the street from
him holding nothing better than a HK227... then your
question becomes interesting
> Tetsujin no Oni

*sigh*

I'm talking real world here, not game rules. But fine
- you're holding an SMG, an assault cannon, a minigun,
a grenade launcher - anything that guarantees you can
take the target, but you're 99.99999% guaranted to
take out the hostage as well. Then what?

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

Can you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/
Message no. 9
From: Martin Steffens marste@*********.com
Subject: Runner Morals - More Questions!
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 08:41:41 -0800
From: Rand Ratinac

> Martin, did you read what gun I said you have? You
> shoot them in the shoulder and you'll probably take
> their shoulder, their arm, most of their torso and
> quite possibly their head as well. :)

Ah, it's nothing, just a flesh wound! :)
What I meant was one of those glancing shots, or just
shoot in the room to convince the hostage taker that
you don't give a damn.

> I suppose you could shoot them in the lower leg (after
> all, they'd certainly fall when most of their leg
> vanished) and replace it with a cloned one later, but
> would you? :)

Depends if the choice is your head or the leg :).

> However, by "rival", I meant that guy on the other
> runner team you've been trying to show up for years,
> not the homicidal bastard who wants you dead and vice
> versa. :)

Shoot :). Aim for a century, get all the bonuses you can
get and then just pray that you hit the hostage taker.
If you hit, you look damn cool and pretend that you
planned this all along, and if you miss you either
pretend it was a warning shot, or you look for a different
rival :). What kind of stupid runner gets himself in such
a situation anyway ;).

Martin
- "You miss, but kill the granny" -
"What granny?"
"The one in the room next door"
"Ah... well... oups... I could swear she had a gun!
honest!" -
Message no. 10
From: Patrick Goodman pgoodman13@************.com
Subject: Runner Morals - More Questions!
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 12:38:12 -0600
From: Rand Ratinac
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 7:05 AM

> Anyway, seeing as you guys seem to intend to answer my
> example, here's another one. Your target, a corp suit
> whose wife wants him offed rather than having to go
> through a messy divorce, has taken a hostage, Joe
> Nobody. You're holding a Barrett sniper rifle with
> depleted uranium ammo. You KNOW your round will go
> right through both Joe and the target, but that the
> chances of JUST killing the target are next to
> nil...but if you DON'T take the shot, he'll get away.
> Do you shoot?

Dancer in his early days? He'd take the shot, no questions asked. Of
course, in his early days, he didn't have the luxury of refusing jobs if he
wanted to keep eating, and he hadn't really found his calling yet.

Dancer now? Wouldn't get involved in a domestic dispute except under some
really strange circumstances.

> What if your target is a terrorist with a bomb that'll
> wipe out half the city if you don't kill him?

Take the shot, no questions, minimal regrets.

> What if the hostage is a kid? What if they're a teammate, or
> your mother, or your sister, or your lover?

Say a prayer, take the shot, say some more prayers, and get monumentally
drunk (this situation actually occurred in a game once). Receive post-death
apparition of lover in question, find a higher calling, quit drinking.

> What if they're your greatest rival?

You have to ask?

> What if it's Kyle Haeffner - good ol' Pres?

Dancer tries to remain apolitical, but hates elections. He'd probably try
to find a shot that wouldn't endanger the President's life, but in the end,
millions of people are more important to him than the life of one public
official.

--
Patrick Goodman
"We say atoms are bound by weak attractors. Why not admit the truth: The
universe is held together by love."
-- Michio Von Kerr, Wayist Physicist
(from GENE RODDENBERRY'S ANDROMEDA)

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Runner Morals - More Questions!, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!