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Message no. 1
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:45:19 +1000
Re: Mobile phones;
> Sounds good to me also it shouldnt be to much problem for the trace to be
> connected to a Global Positioning system might ad valuble seconds to
> the trace but not much more.

They should posislby suffer from the same reaction penalties that
satlinks get.... And no, they wouldn't be untraceable (if anyone has seen
The Assasin for example)

Same goes for satlinks; They should not be untraceble... Perhaps give a
+4 to TNs for the trace, but that's all. The (convoluted) reasoning
behind this is;

Any satellite worthy of a decent bandwidth will be reasonably secure,
and secure satellites would use directional aerials so that the senstive
data transmitted over them is not broadcast to everyone in the footprint.
Encyrytpion systems are not entirely secure in the SR game universe, so
directional transmission would be a necessity.

It would of course be possible to find a satellite without driectional
transmission, but does the decker really want to broadcast his entire run
to the whole satellite footprint..... It'd be a great way to accidently
disseminate the data he just trashed his deck to steal.... unless you've
got military-grade encryption systems that is.

Data flow is a two-way event, which is what the trace locks onto... This
means that the trace can lock down your physical position to al least within
the diameter of the tight beam transmission... It doesn't give a matrix
address, and only pinpoints the satellite uplink station, not the decker.

But there are still plenty of things a corp can do to stop the decker,
aside from attacking his persona with IC or corp deckers.... They can
for instance, launch a guided missile at the GPS location provided by the
satellite. Personally, I'd want a really long cord between the uplink
station and myself. And don't put a GPS in your deck, either *grin*

Another thing to consider with satellites is that many of them are not in
geosynchronous orbit....This is especially true for surveillance birds
and backup communications sats (it makes them harder to shoot down) They
have fast orbits and the decker only has a narrow window before the
satellite passes out of view.

Just so the GM can make decking runs that little bit more complex.

Bleach.
Message no. 2
From: Max Rible <cheshire@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:28:46 -0800
At 15:45 10/15/96 +1000, Marty wrote:
>Encyrytpion systems are not entirely secure in the SR game universe, so
>directional transmission would be a necessity.

This is something that is simply not believable; either encryption is something
you can make arbitrarily difficult to defeat by using bigger keys, or someone
finally proved p = np and there's no point to encryption at all.

>Data flow is a two-way event, which is what the trace locks onto... This
>means that the trace can lock down your physical position to al least within
>the diameter of the tight beam transmission... It doesn't give a matrix
>address, and only pinpoints the satellite uplink station, not the decker.

How tight-beamed is a transmission from a satellite? A block? A quarter
mile?

>But there are still plenty of things a corp can do to stop the decker,
>aside from attacking his persona with IC or corp deckers.... They can
>for instance, launch a guided missile at the GPS location provided by the
>satellite.

No way. If Ares suddenly launched a guided missile into UCAS airspace,
they'd be in *very* deep drek.
--
%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
%%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%%
%%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%%
Message no. 3
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 05:00:10 +1000
> >Encyrytpion systems are not entirely secure in the SR game universe, so
> >directional transmission would be a necessity.
>
> This is something that is simply not believable; either encryption is something
> you can make arbitrarily difficult to defeat by using bigger keys, or someone
> finally proved p = np and there's no point to encryption at all.
>

This is one case where I'm going to rules lawyer with no thought to
logic...... I'm not up with the technical side of the encyption argument,
apart from hating the NSA on principle, but the machanics of the SR
universe are pretty clear on this;

It's called a scramble IC. They have ratings. They CAN be defeated,
usually using the decrpyt utility. The transmission between the
cyberdeck and the host CAN NOT be any more secure than a scrambled data
packet, which is (as I have just shown) brekable.. if it was more secure
everyone would use it for all kinds of data.

If the player wants to fool with a wide-beam transmission source, assign
an arbitrary rating to the encryption system he uses... perhaps
equivalent to the MPCP, or the Evasion persona rating of his deck.

The encryption may be secure enough that no-one can fool around with it
in real time and stuff with the run, but you can bet that given enough
time it is crackable.

> >Data flow is a two-way event, which is what the trace locks onto... This
> >means that the trace can lock down your physical position to al least within
> >the diameter of the tight beam transmission... It doesn't give a matrix
> >address, and only pinpoints the satellite uplink station, not the decker.
>
> How tight-beamed is a transmission from a satellite? A block? A quarter
> mile?
>
No idea, really..... I'd say that it's up to the GM, and pray that he's
in a good mood. Personally I'd say that a quarter block would be a good
radius; It gives the players something to think about.

With a laser the theoretical raduis is about half an inch, but that's not
going to happen because of atmospheric disturbances and positioning
inaccuracies.

> >But there are still plenty of things a corp can do to stop the decker,
> >aside from attacking his persona with IC or corp deckers.... They can
> >for instance, launch a guided missile at the GPS location provided by the
> >satellite.
>
> No way. If Ares suddenly launched a guided missile into UCAS airspace,
> they'd be in *very* deep drek.
>
Only if they didn't pay the price to shut the UCAS up... I think the UCAS
comes under the definition "toothless tiger"... Where do they get all of
their armaments from, anyway?

I'll admit that it's not likely to happen often,. but if it's a big
datasteal, then the probability increases. Also, MCT would be more
likely to do something like that than Shiawase (they'd send a squad
of mages)

Bleach
Message no. 4
From: Max Rible <cheshire@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:22:12 -0800
At 05:00 10/16/96 +1000, Marty wrote:
>This is one case where I'm going to rules lawyer with no thought to
>logic...... I'm not up with the technical side of the encyption argument,
>apart from hating the NSA on principle, but the machanics of the SR
>universe are pretty clear on this;
>
>It's called a scramble IC. They have ratings. They CAN be defeated,
>usually using the decrpyt utility. The transmission between the
>cyberdeck and the host CAN NOT be any more secure than a scrambled data
>packet, which is (as I have just shown) brekable.. if it was more secure
>everyone would use it for all kinds of data.

I figure that Scramble IC is just there to make it difficult to get at
data unauthorized, and that if you want serious security, you have a black
box that contains your encryption algorithm and key that you plug into
a terminal. (I suppose you could stick with the standard rules on
encryption just like you can play with the multi-ton computers in Traveller...)

>The encryption may be secure enough that no-one can fool around with it
>in real time and stuff with the run, but you can bet that given enough
>time it is crackable.

"Enough time" is a *very* broad statement...

>No idea, really..... I'd say that it's up to the GM, and pray that he's
>in a good mood. Personally I'd say that a quarter block would be a good
>radius; It gives the players something to think about.

This would then lead to deckermobiles: vans tricked out to look like some
sort of newscasting van with a dish on top. (Probably dismountable through
an oversized sunroof.)

>> No way. If Ares suddenly launched a guided missile into UCAS airspace,
>> they'd be in *very* deep drek.

>Only if they didn't pay the price to shut the UCAS up... I think the UCAS
>comes under the definition "toothless tiger"... Where do they get all of
>their armaments from, anyway?

The UCAS army is still pretty serious in its own right, I believe. (I haven't
run into *any* references that it qualifies as a "toothless tiger" in the
source material, unless my memory's decaying faster than usual.)

>I'll admit that it's not likely to happen often,. but if it's a big
>datasteal, then the probability increases. Also, MCT would be more
>likely to do something like that than Shiawase (they'd send a squad
>of mages)

I'd expect a flock of drones followed by a VTOL full of high threat response
team, not a missile...
--
%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
%%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%%
%%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%%
Message no. 5
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 05:38:58 +1000
> >It's called a scramble IC. They have ratings. They CAN be defeated,
> >usually using the decrpyt utility. The transmission between the
> >cyberdeck and the host CAN NOT be any more secure than a scrambled data
> >packet, which is (as I have just shown) brekable.. if it was more secure
> >everyone would use it for all kinds of data.
>
> I figure that Scramble IC is just there to make it difficult to get at
> data unauthorized, and that if you want serious security, you have a black
> box that contains your encryption algorithm and key that you plug into
> a terminal. (I suppose you could stick with the standard rules on
> encryption just like you can play with the multi-ton computers in Traveller...)
>
Yeah, but then the decker can't get access to any of the secure data
without the encrpytion code. That negates the whole reason for a dekcers
existence and renders the whole data-paranoid atmosphere of SR invalid...
You therefore have no Corporate based game if the data encryption is
secure. Because face it, every file worth metioning is going to be
encrypted.

> >The encryption may be secure enough that no-one can fool around with it
> >in real time and stuff with the run, but you can bet that given enough
> >time it is crackable.
>
> "Enough time" is a *very* broad statement...
>
Certainly is. All that really matters in this case is that some other
fool could be listening in, and crack your encryption and sell the data
to whomever wants it, before you can get to market.

> >No idea, really..... I'd say that it's up to the GM, and pray that he's
> >in a good mood. Personally I'd say that a quarter block would be a good
> >radius; It gives the players something to think about.
>
> This would then lead to deckermobiles: vans tricked out to look like some
> sort of newscasting van with a dish on top. (Probably dismountable through
> an oversized sunroof.)
>
Not necessarily; The trace IC can have sub-routines that interrogate the
satellite to find out where it is sending the return signal that is your
data trail. The satellite has to know after all, in order to keep track of
where to send the signal.

> >Only if they didn't pay the price to shut the UCAS up... I think the UCAS
> >comes under the definition "toothless tiger"... Where do they get all
of
> >their armaments from, anyway?
>
> The UCAS army is still pretty serious in its own right, I believe. (I haven't
> run into *any* references that it qualifies as a "toothless tiger" in the
> source material, unless my memory's decaying faster than usual.)
>
Most of the later fiction (Just Compensation) and the comments in the
archetypes kind of imply that to my POV..... The navy has certianly
shrunk, and the UCAS sold NASA to Ares Macrotech... That kind of implies
decreased national capabilities in general.

Perhaps not toothless, but the corp would do something, and then
apologise, butt-suck, or try and pin the blame on someone else when the
dust has settled.

> >I'll admit that it's not likely to happen often,. but if it's a big
> >datasteal, then the probability increases. Also, MCT would be more
> >likely to do something like that than Shiawase (they'd send a squad
> >of mages)
>
> I'd expect a flock of drones followed by a VTOL full of high threat response
> team, not a missile...
>
Really depends how much time they have to stop you...... If there's an
attack helicopter in the area, and the repsonse team is ten minutes away,
then the missile is more likely. it also depends on whether they have
knocked the decker out with a Black IC.... prisoners are always preferrable.

It also depends heavily on the type of people living in the area where
you are decked in... The SINless can't complain if they cop a stray round
or two, while the gainfully employed certianly would.

The drones are a good idea though... I might use them if I ever GM
Message no. 6
From: Max Rible <cheshire@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:21:26 -0800
At 05:38 10/16/96 +1000, Marty wrote:
>Yeah, but then the decker can't get access to any of the secure data
>without the encrpytion code. That negates the whole reason for a dekcers
>existence and renders the whole data-paranoid atmosphere of SR invalid...
>You therefore have no Corporate based game if the data encryption is
>secure. Because face it, every file worth metioning is going to be
>encrypted.

As it stands, every file worth mentioning is going to be kept on systems
not on the Matrix, requiring physical penetration by the deckers. Player
characters get to use common sense, so the corps have to have access to
it too or they're a pushover. This way, it means that you make runs to get
the executive's ring that contains his private encryption key so you can get
his files, or kidnap him to run a Mind Probe for those authorization codes...

>> This would then lead to deckermobiles: vans tricked out to look like some
>> sort of newscasting van with a dish on top. (Probably dismountable through
>> an oversized sunroof.)

>Not necessarily; The trace IC can have sub-routines that interrogate the
>satellite to find out where it is sending the return signal that is your
>data trail. The satellite has to know after all, in order to keep track of
>where to send the signal.

Yes; the deckermobile notion is to get the decker out of the area if they
think they're being traced or when the Matrix run is over.
--
%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
%%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%%
%%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%%
Message no. 7
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:15:27 +1000
> >Yeah, but then the decker can't get access to any of the secure data
> >without the encrpytion code. That negates the whole reason for a dekcers
> >existence and renders the whole data-paranoid atmosphere of SR invalid...
> >You therefore have no Corporate based game if the data encryption is
> >secure. Because face it, every file worth metioning is going to be
> >encrypted.
>
> As it stands, every file worth mentioning is going to be kept on systems
> not on the Matrix, requiring physical penetration by the deckers. Player
> characters get to use common sense, so the corps have to have access to
> it too or they're a pushover. This way, it means that you make runs to get
> the executive's ring that contains his private encryption key so you can get
> his files, or kidnap him to run a Mind Probe for those authorization codes...
>
Fiar enough.... but it can't be that common, or decker still would not
exist.

Keep in mind that isolated data storage only works if no-one needs to
access the data. If it's hot and used by people all over the world, then it
has to be kept on the matrix. The encryption also has to be multi-key
accessible, or you have to give the same key to everyone and hope no-one
loses it.

Bleach
Message no. 8
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:28:36 +0100
>> No way. If Ares suddenly launched a guided missile into UCAS airspace,
>> they'd be in *very* deep drek.
>>
>Only if they didn't pay the price to shut the UCAS up... I think the UCAS
>comes under the definition "toothless tiger"... Where do they get all of
>their armaments from, anyway?

You haven't followed the debate over in r.g.f.c, have you? :)

Basically, the UCAS outguns Ares about 20:1 to 100:1. An armed solution
won't work.

If the UCAS uses Ares weapons, so what? Putting "off" switches in the
weapons is a one-use gig: after it happens once, nobody will buy from
you. There are plenty of competitors out there who will sell instead,
assuming the UCAS doesn't just buy one system and reverse-engineer or,
legally, licence-produce it themselves.

And there isn't much you can do about a platoon of soldiers in Bradleys
manning roadblocks at every gate outside Ares HQ in Detroit, insisting
on _full_ immigration procedures and customs checks for every single
person and vehicle. You are crossing national boundaries, the UCAS is
entitled to impose whatever checks it likes...

Okay, you could shoot the soldiers. Then you get a MLRS strike across
your HQ, UCAS Air Force fighters closing your corporate airfields, your
merchant shipping carrying your goods at sea mysteriously explode and
sink, all your telecom lines are cut, your power lines are down, your
water is contaminated, there's massive back pressure in the sewer
system...

Corporations don't fight military actions, especially not with major
nations. A small black-ops squad to grab or kill the decker, being
careful to avoid collateral casualties, makes sense. Giving the UCAS
reason to beat on the corporation doesn't.

I mean, imagine the reciprocity... "well, we traced the illegal
operation to Mr Smith, one of your executives, so we lofted four 2000lb
laser-guided bombs into his office... using the matter of dispute
resolution you demonstrated last week with the missile shot into Tacoma.
Collateral damage? I would quote your representative, if his remarks had
been printable."

Corps have little to gain and much to lose in this scenario.

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 9
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 07:53:16 +1000
> You haven't followed the debate over in r.g.f.c, have you? :)
>
What's the appreviation stand for??
I don't know.

> Basically, the UCAS outguns Ares about 20:1 to 100:1. An armed solution
> won't work.
>
Unlikely. the UCAS no longer has the same strike force that America
enjoyed.... Read the sourcebooks.. There's no really big spiel in any one
sourcebook but if you read them all you soon get the idea.

> If the UCAS uses Ares weapons, so what? Putting "off" switches in the
> weapons is a one-use gig: after it happens once, nobody will buy from
> you. There are plenty of competitors out there who will sell instead,
> assuming the UCAS doesn't just buy one system and reverse-engineer or,
> legally, licence-produce it themselves.
>
I was thinking more along the lines of delays in supply... accidental
losses in transit;

"Oh I'm sorry Mr. Army Dude, the stock appears to have been ambushed by
a bunch of seperatist rebels... You know, the ones that want to drek all
over your country."

> Corporations don't fight military actions, especially not with major
> nations. A small black-ops squad to grab or kill the decker, being
> careful to avoid collateral casualties, makes sense. Giving the UCAS
> reason to beat on the corporation doesn't.
>
Ares does.... they field at least a full combined arms regiment.

The UCAS has to be able to hit the corporation's offices.... It works for
ARES, but not for any of the other major magacorps.... They all have
their top offcies elsewhere in the world.

And if you're using Ares as an example; The UCAS tried to keep Hawaii
(sp?) from going independent and Ares dropped a Thor shot right in front
of the invasions fleet, as a warning.... They have significant
space-based capaibilities. Arers and most of the other Corporations also
have NULCEAR capability.

The only reason Ares does not get involved in wars is because wars are
generally bad for business....If, however, they stand to lose a lot of
money from a decker, they'll shoot first and ask questions later.

Recall the U2 spy plane that got shot down over Russia... that was a
diplomatic incident, but they still did it.

> I mean, imagine the reciprocity... "well, we traced the illegal
> operation to Mr Smith, one of your executives, so we lofted four 2000lb
> laser-guided bombs into his office... using the matter of dispute
> resolution you demonstrated last week with the missile shot into Tacoma.
> Collateral damage? I would quote your representative, if his remarks had
> been printable."
>
> Corps have little to gain and much to lose in this scenario.
>
Bull; How about several million dollars worth of research data, in
exchange for a favour (ie; ignoring the indiscretion).

And they have to know it's Ares....There's always pausible deniability.

O.K. if you think that the UCAS still has the military might to lord it
over the corporations, fair enough. There is always commercial pressure
as well. How much would Ares (for example) have invested in the UCAS?
How many outstanding loans does the UCAS have... And before you say
'none', think how much America of today owes to the rest of the world.

Whatever the UCAS can do in the way of retaliation, a Megacorp can
match....They may not hack it in a stand-up fight, but in black ops, who
hires more shadowrunners on a day-to day basis? Who has the corporate
court on side??

Frankly, nations are second tier powers in shadowrun..... the corps rule
the world.

If they don't in your world, then we're not playing the same game.

Bleach
Message no. 10
From: A Halliwell <u5a77@**.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 22:55:25 +0100
|
|> You haven't followed the debate over in r.g.f.c, have you? :)
|>
|What's the appreviation stand for??
| I don't know.

The newsgroup rec.games.frp.cyber

It's the newsgroup dedecated to the cyberpunk genre of rpgs, such as
Shadowrun and Cyberpunk (And the occasionaly earthdawn and gurps)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk | |
|Andrew Halliwell | "ARSE! GERLS!! DRINK! DRINK! DRINK!!!" |
|Principal subjects in:-| "THAT WOULD BE AN ECCLESIASTICAL MATTER!...FECK!!!!|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | - Father Jack in "Father Ted"
|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! >*SULK*<|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: Max Rible <cheshire@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:16:20 -0800
At 07:53 10/17/96 +1000, Marty wrote:
>> You haven't followed the debate over in r.g.f.c, have you? :)

>What's the appreviation stand for??
> I don't know.

Rec.games.frp.cyber. It's a USENET news group.

>Unlikely. the UCAS no longer has the same strike force that America
>enjoyed.... Read the sourcebooks.. There's no really big spiel in any one
>sourcebook but if you read them all you soon get the idea.

I've read them all (save for Prime Runners), and I don't get that impression.

>I was thinking more along the lines of delays in supply... accidental
>losses in transit;

> "Oh I'm sorry Mr. Army Dude, the stock appears to have been ambushed by
>a bunch of seperatist rebels... You know, the ones that want to drek all
>over your country."

Then Ares doesn't get paid, and takes the loss. If they really start
screwing up, the UCAS can reverse its extraterritoriality decision,
seize any Ares assets it deems to be in violation of any laws they
decide to make, and start making life hell for even megacorps. Of
course, the repercussions on the UCAS would also be nasty, but the
world would be different when the dust settled.

>> Corporations don't fight military actions, especially not with major
>> nations.

>Ares does.... they field at least a full combined arms regiment.

Desert Wars assets are pretty impressive, but they're still going to have
serious trouble if the UCAS decides to get mad.

>The UCAS has to be able to hit the corporation's offices.... It works for
>ARES, but not for any of the other major magacorps.... They all have
>their top offcies elsewhere in the world.

So what? The other corps have major assets in the UCAS. They know
that corporate extraterritoriality can be reversed by an appropriate
vote or declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court. They have
plenty of license, but it's not unlimited.

>And if you're using Ares as an example; The UCAS tried to keep Hawaii
>(sp?) from going independent and Ares dropped a Thor shot right in front
>of the invasions fleet, as a warning.... They have significant
>space-based capaibilities. Arers and most of the other Corporations also
>have NULCEAR capability.

That was merely a matter of making the UCAS think that it wouldn't be worth
the effort to keep Hawai'i. Something going on in the continental US would
be worth a lot more.

>Frankly, nations are second tier powers in shadowrun..... the corps rule
>the world.

>If they don't in your world, then we're not playing the same game.

No, we're not. In my world, major nations and AAA megacorps are *each*
first-tier powers. If one decides to frag with another, serious drek
ensues, threatening the lives and livelihoods of everyone in the vicinity.
--
%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
%%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%%
%%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%%
Message no. 12
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 18:27:00 -0700
>Unlikely. the UCAS no longer has the same strike force that America
>enjoyed.... Read the sourcebooks.. There's no really big spiel in any one
>sourcebook but if you read them all you soon get the idea.


Not really the governments aren't exactly toothless.


>I was thinking more along the lines of delays in supply... accidental
>losses in transit;
> "Oh I'm sorry Mr. Army Dude, the stock appears to have been ambushed by
>a bunch of seperatist rebels... You know, the ones that want to drek all
>over your country."


No they don't have half a dozen other corps just waiting to sell them their
knock-offs and their specialized gear.

>Ares does.... they field at least a full combined arms regiment.

One regiment comapred to how many UCAS troops?

>And if you're using Ares as an example; The UCAS tried to keep Hawaii
>(sp?) from going independent and Ares dropped a Thor shot right in front
>of the invasions fleet, as a warning.... They have significant
>space-based capaibilities. Arers and most of the other Corporations also
>have NULCEAR capability.

No the Hawaii wasn't worth that kind of effort. But no UCAS or CAS for that
matter wouldn't have come up with a reponse for that by now. As for their
nuclear capability. I don't believe its in the ICBM ranges quite yet.


snip

>Whatever the UCAS can do in the way of retaliation, a Megacorp can
>match....They may not hack it in a stand-up fight, but in black ops, who
>hires more shadowrunners on a day-to day basis? Who has the corporate
>court on side??

Shadowrunners generally can't comapre to a say a seal team or army rangers
etc....
Corp court? Remeber this line" Mr. Phips (spelling) if you or any members of
your IMF team are caught the secretary will disavow(spelling?) any knowledge
of your activities."

>Frankly, nations are second tier powers in shadowrun..... the corps rule
>the world.

Even second tier powers still have teeth. Corp rule their realm who knows
about the govt realm.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 13
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 08:43:40 +1000
> >I was thinking more along the lines of delays in supply... accidental
> >losses in transit;
> > "Oh I'm sorry Mr. Army Dude, the stock appears to have been ambushed by
> >a bunch of seperatist rebels... You know, the ones that want to drek all
> >over your country."
>
>
> No they don't have half a dozen other corps just waiting to sell them their
> knock-offs and their specialized gear.
>
And in the case of Ares, who else really makes any Aerospace gear???
They've got a lock on the market.

Some things the competition just can't supply.

> >Whatever the UCAS can do in the way of retaliation, a Megacorp can
> >match....They may not hack it in a stand-up fight, but in black ops, who
> >hires more shadowrunners on a day-to day basis? Who has the corporate
> >court on side??
>
> Shadowrunners generally can't comapre to a say a seal team or army rangers
> etc....
>
Depends how good the average shadworunner is.... Some of the ones I've
seen posted on the list were better than the stats I've seen for the Seal
teams on the web.

And when a lot of Shadworunners ARE ex-seals and rangers........

Bleach
Message no. 14
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 01:10:09 +0100
>And in the case of Ares, who else really makes any Aerospace gear???
>They've got a lock on the market.

Oh? Only Ares has aerospace equipment? I seriously doubt that. India has
an indigenous satellite launch capacity today, as does China: many
smaller powers are developing either orbital capability or IRBMs.

If space is important, then others than Ares will develop capability. If
only Ares has it, then it's not considered that significant.

Remember, it was _forty years ago_ that Ares took over NASA. If space
began to matter again, then there's no reason the UCAS couldn't get back
in the business, and be damn good at it by now.

>Some things the competition just can't supply.

When the competition is seven other AAA megas, a number of major
nations, then the whole raft of lesser players, there's ample scope for
a new boy in the market, backed by one or more parties who intend to
steal some of Ares' monopoly profit margin.



--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 15
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:14:50 -0700
snip
>And in the case of Ares, who else really makes any Aerospace gear???
>They've got a lock on the market.
>Some things the competition just can't supply.

Oh I don't know how about Rockwell.


>Depends how good the average shadworunner is.... Some of the ones I've
>seen posted on the list were better than the stats I've seen for the Seal
>teams on the web.
>
>And when a lot of Shadworunners ARE ex-seals and rangers........
>
Yeah I did the ex-milt( insert favorite beanch and team ) thing back in High
School. It however doesn't jive. Maybe a troop of elite merc's and not the
ones who run the shadow either. As as for the one posted they usually end up
somewhere between silly and god like. And remember if going to assume those
god like runners exist it's fair to say the milt black op have people to
match if not out right out power these characters. I've seen some of the
characters and nearly died laughing. Remind me of the old monty haul theme
in D&D.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 16
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:39:29 +1000
> >And in the case of Ares, who else really makes any Aerospace gear???
> >They've got a lock on the market.
>
> Oh? Only Ares has aerospace equipment? I seriously doubt that. India has
> an indigenous satellite launch capacity today, as does China: many
> smaller powers are developing either orbital capability or IRBMs.
>
Read corp security..... Other corps have decetn ratings in Aerospace
tech, but Ares has an 11, which consitutes market dominance accoridng to
the book, and my memory.

> Remember, it was _forty years ago_ that Ares took over NASA. If space
> began to matter again, then there's no reason the UCAS couldn't get back
> in the business, and be damn good at it by now.
>
Where from???? Ares owns NASA and all the facilities.... and the UCAS
doesn't have any extra-national sites for a possible base.


Can we agree to disagree here??? I'll play my campaign, where the Corps
have more power than the Government, and you'll play yours....

Hey, BTW if *every* missle strike or criminal action got avenged by the
Government (OR the corp).... No shadowrunners would be employed.

Anyway, ciao....

Bleach
Message no. 17
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:43:23 +1000
> >Depends how good the average shadworunner is.... Some of the ones I've
> >seen posted on the list were better than the stats I've seen for the Seal
> >teams on the web.
> >
> >And when a lot of Shadworunners ARE ex-seals and rangers........
> >
> Yeah I did the ex-milt( insert favorite beanch and team ) thing back in High
> School. It however doesn't jive. Maybe a troop of elite merc's and not the
> ones who run the shadow either. As as for the one posted they usually end up
> somewhere between silly and god like. And remember if going to assume those
> god like runners exist it's fair to say the milt black op have people to
> match if not out right out power these characters. I've seen some of the
> characters and nearly died laughing. Remind me of the old monty haul theme
> in D&D.
>
Me too, personally....But I have to say that I'm currently playing an
ex-Sioux Wildcat and he's no power character by any means... The highest
stat he's got is a six.

But..... he was the sniper and/or forward scout for the team; Stealth not
Grunt.

Anyway, end of thread... we can agree to disagree on the general
retaliatory action a corp is willing to make.... It makes my game more
dangerous and unpredictable, which I like.

See ya.

Bleach
Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:09:59 +0100
Marty said on 7:53/17 Oct 96...

> > You haven't followed the debate over in r.g.f.c, have you? :)
> >
> What's the appreviation stand for??
> I don't know.

rec.games.frp.cyber

> > Basically, the UCAS outguns Ares about 20:1 to 100:1. An armed solution
> > won't work.
> >
> Unlikely. the UCAS no longer has the same strike force that America
> enjoyed.... Read the sourcebooks.. There's no really big spiel in any one
> sourcebook but if you read them all you soon get the idea.

You're saying you think the UCAS Army couldn't take on a "light
regiment/exceptional" force? That's about 1000 well-trained personnel,
according to Corp Shadowfiles... Send in a couple of divisions and they're
finished, no doubt about it at all (if the army gets to do it without too
much political interference, that is).

> I was thinking more along the lines of delays in supply... accidental
> losses in transit;
>
> "Oh I'm sorry Mr. Army Dude, the stock appears to have been ambushed by
> a bunch of seperatist rebels... You know, the ones that want to drek all
> over your country."

They can't control all the arms manufacturers, especially not if that
manufacturer is another megacorp. Assume Ares doesn't want to sell to the
UCAS military anymore... So the Pentagon will just go to Fuchi (although I
guess the "Military Technology: 18" rating is a typo and should be 8) and
buy their weapons.

> > Corporations don't fight military actions, especially not with major
> > nations. A small black-ops squad to grab or kill the decker, being
> > careful to avoid collateral casualties, makes sense. Giving the UCAS
> > reason to beat on the corporation doesn't.
> >
> Ares does.... they field at least a full combined arms regiment.

Big deal against a major army. Even if that regiment is armed with the
latest weapons and best training, sheer weight of numbers would kill them
all in a few days, especially if the UCAS were to throw it entire weight
against it.

> The UCAS has to be able to hit the corporation's offices.... It works for
> ARES, but not for any of the other major magacorps.... They all have
> their top offcies elsewhere in the world.

Since when has that stopped the U(CA)S from bombing something? Grenada,
Libia, Panama, Iraq, Bosnia, and Iraq again all in the last 15 years.

> And if you're using Ares as an example; The UCAS tried to keep Hawaii
> (sp?) from going independent and Ares dropped a Thor shot right in front
> of the invasions fleet, as a warning.... They have significant
> space-based capaibilities. Arers and most of the other Corporations also
> have NULCEAR capability.

And using that is *VERY BAD* for PR, not to mention sales. What is a
megacorp if there is nobody left to sell to?

> If they don't in your world, then we're not playing the same game.

Of course you're not. Everybody's game is different.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Apestaartje"?!?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 19
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 17:35:11 +0100
>> Oh? Only Ares has aerospace equipment? I seriously doubt that. India has
>> an indigenous satellite launch capacity today, as does China: many
>> smaller powers are developing either orbital capability or IRBMs.
>>
>Read corp security..... Other corps have decetn ratings in Aerospace
>tech, but Ares has an 11, which consitutes market dominance accoridng to
>the book, and my memory.

In other words, there are plenty of people out there who can build and
launch comsats, recce birds, killersats, et cetera for you, and if Ares
cut you off you can go to one of several competitors.

>> Remember, it was _forty years ago_ that Ares took over NASA. If space
>> began to matter again, then there's no reason the UCAS couldn't get back
>> in the business, and be damn good at it by now.
>>
>Where from???? Ares owns NASA and all the facilities.... and the UCAS
>doesn't have any extra-national sites for a possible base.

How about Ascension Island? It's as far south of the Equator as Guinea
is north, and the ESA use Equatorial Guinea for their Ariane launches.

>Hey, BTW if *every* missle strike or criminal action got avenged by the
>Government (OR the corp).... No shadowrunners would be employed.

Criminal action? No, of course not. No proof, no links, no evidence.

Missile strike? If the Iranian Embassy started firing machine guns at
passers-by in Washington, do you think the US would sit still or might
they possibly do something about it? Check out the Libyan People's
Bureau siege in the mid-1980s for an example. If that's the reaction to
a few bullets, imagine the response to artillery fire.

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 20
From: John Pederson <Canthros@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:49:49 -0400
In a message dated 96-10-16 18:29:47 EDT, you write:

snip
>>Whatever the UCAS can do in the way of retaliation, a Megacorp can
>>match....They may not hack it in a stand-up fight, but in black ops, who
>>hires more shadowrunners on a day-to day basis? Who has the corporate
>>court on side??
>
>Shadowrunners generally can't comapre to a say a seal team or army rangers
>etc....
Oh, I don't know. I don't get to play much, but the general consensus that
only the special ops groups are equipped as well as (or better than) a group
of runners is what I hold to...So, I'd figure that the Navy SEALs or the
Rangers would probably be about on equal ground with a group of experienced
runners with equal numbers-especially if the combat ground was, say, urban as
opposed to a nameless field in the middle of the UCAS somewhere.

>Corp court? Remeber this line" Mr. Phips (spelling) if you or any members of
>your IMF team are caught the secretary will disavow(spelling?) any knowledge
>of your activities."
>
>>Frankly, nations are second tier powers in shadowrun..... the corps rule
>>the world.
>
>Even second tier powers still have teeth. Corp rule their realm who knows
>about the govt realm.
>
I agree there. Just because you're more powerful than somebody else doesn't
mean you discount them, for two reasons: one, they may have something that
you don't know about, two, there are LOTS of somebody else's-two second tier
powers could probably better than match one first tier.

John Pederson
canthros@***.com
http://members.gnn.com/lenoj/johns.htm
Message no. 21
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:09:39 +1000
Jesus H. Christ guys, I asked that these thread stop because we have an
unresolvable difference of opinion, and because we strayed way off topic.

Would you please mind my request and stop the thread? You'll notice that
I didn't respond to any of yours.


Bleach
Message no. 22
From: Guardian <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 09:45:27 +1000
> Oh? Only Ares has aerospace equipment? I seriously doubt that. India has
> an indigenous satellite launch capacity today, as does China: many
> smaller powers are developing either orbital capability or IRBMs.

<snip>

Try looking in Corporate shadowfiles. Ares is streets ahead of the
others in aerospace technology.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's called tourist season, so why can't we shoot them?"
Adam Treloar aka Guardian
s777317@*****.student.gu.edu.au http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1900/
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 23
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:34:27 -0700
>Try looking in Corporate shadowfiles. Ares is streets ahead of the
>others in aerospace technology.
>
Yes they are ahead. But certanly the other would be more than willing to
take up what ever slack that would be produced in ares suddendly no onger
providingtaht service. Still what about Rockwell. Even in Sr I can't imagine
the would be that far behind area in aerospace tech.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicley I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 24
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 13:03:11 +0100
NightLife said on 21:34/16 Oct 96...

> Yes they are ahead. But certanly the other would be more than willing to
> take up what ever slack that would be produced in ares suddendly no onger
> providingtaht service. Still what about Rockwell. Even in Sr I can't imagine
> the would be that far behind area in aerospace tech.

Who says nobody bought Rockwell out? Maybe Ares owns Rockwell now, or
Renraku does. Maybe it went bankrupt altogether in the Crash of '29. The
possibilities are almost endless.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
My words are minimal.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 25
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:08:37 -0600
Gurth wrote:
|
|NightLife said on 21:34/16 Oct 96...
|
|> Yes they are ahead. But certanly the other would be more than willing to
|> take up what ever slack that would be produced in ares suddendly no onger
|> providingtaht service. Still what about Rockwell. Even in Sr I can't imagine
|> the would be that far behind area in aerospace tech.
|
|Who says nobody bought Rockwell out? Maybe Ares owns Rockwell now, or
|Renraku does. Maybe it went bankrupt altogether in the Crash of '29. The
|possibilities are almost endless.

Or maybe Rockwell was the target of some serious sabatoge
(ShadowRunners) by a megacorp.

-David

/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 26
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:30:30 +0100
In message <Pine.SOL.3.91.961018094440.8567B-100000@*****.student.gu.edu
.au>, Guardian <s777317@*******.GU.EDU.AU> writes
>> Oh? Only Ares has aerospace equipment? I seriously doubt that. India has
>> an indigenous satellite launch capacity today, as does China: many
>> smaller powers are developing either orbital capability or IRBMs.

>Try looking in Corporate shadowfiles. Ares is streets ahead of the
>others in aerospace technology.

So? Their cutting-edge tech is not likely to be widely available nor
readily affordable: nor, if Ares is sole supplier, will many people
trust them.

A usefully effective comsat or reconnaisance satellite is neither
difficult to build, nor to launch, and Ares merely acquired NASA: ESA is
not mentioned, neither are the Indian, Japanese, UCAS, Israeli, et
cetera space programmes.

Ares might dominate in THOR orbital KE weapons, well, big deal. You
can't use THOR on a guerrilla force, nor on an urban area unless you're
completely reckless as to noncombatant casualtues.

Their dominance might be useful, but since they're still merely one of a
Big Eight I suggest it's hardly decisive.

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 27
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:32:12 -0700
>Who says nobody bought Rockwell out? Maybe Ares owns Rockwell now, or
>Renraku does. Maybe it went bankrupt altogether in the Crash of '29. The
>possibilities are almost endless.


No the original question was how could compete with Area in aereospace.
Rockwell was just a idea. Last time I check ares didn't own Rockwell. AS for
the rest who knows.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

If you have to ask then it's probably classified.
Which means that I have to follow protocol.
But if you ask nicely I might forget that you asked.
Then again maybe not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 28
From: Marty <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 11:53:39 +1000
> >Try looking in Corporate shadowfiles. Ares is streets ahead of the
> >others in aerospace technology.
>
> So? Their cutting-edge tech is not likely to be widely available nor
> readily affordable: nor, if Ares is sole supplier, will many people
> trust them.
>
Just end this thread please.... Or better yet, go back and read the
orignal post that I made; I covered most of the bases in that, before
everyone jumped on my back about the possibility of using a missile to
stop a decker.

Bleach
Message no. 29
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:50:26 +0000
On 18 Oct 96 at 9:09, Marty wrote:

> Jesus H. Christ guys, I asked that these thread stop because we have an
> unresolvable difference of opinion, and because we strayed way off topic.
>
> Would you please mind my request and stop the thread? You'll notice that
> I didn't respond to any of yours.
*grin* You should have learned by now that it is not too important if you want
a threat, err, thread to stop. People are discussing, w/o a moderator, and
that's good. Got a couple of nice ideas again...

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 30
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Satlinks and Decking
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 17:50:26 +0000
On 17 Oct 96 at 8:43, Marty wrote:
[snip]
> > No they don't have half a dozen other corps just waiting to sell them their
> > knock-offs and their specialized gear.
> >
> And in the case of Ares, who else really makes any Aerospace gear???
> They've got a lock on the market.
Check Corporate Shadowfiles p. 118. Although Ares is the corp with the highest
rating (11) in the Aerospace sector, others do work there too (Fuchi (7),
Aztech, Saeder-Krupp, Shiawase, Yamatetsu (all 6)). So there will be
competition. Which makes sense too. There wouldn't be the Corporate Council in
space, if just one of its members would controll all the whole technology.

And these are just the big eight ones. Corporations that might be specialize
in spacecrafts are not even listed.

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | 'Hate is a force of|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| attraction. Hate is|
| \___ __/ | | just love with its|
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* |back turned' - Terry|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me |Pratchett-Masquerade|
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Satlinks and Decking, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!