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From:	"Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject:	Science Frontiers
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:53:55 -0500

Message no. 1 Saw a real cool show on The Learning Channel tonight.
It detailed some of the new technical breakthroughs in use by the police.
Many were particularly appropriate for SR.

Probably the neatest thing I saw was the Road Patriot.
It's a wheeled platform the size of a skateboard. It's powered by a model
rocket engine, and launches from the front of a police vehicle.
The unit is designed to be fired underneath a car, where it adminsters a
huge electric shock to the engine, shorting it out.
This stops the vehicle from running, but allows brakes and steering to
function, so that there is much less risk of a crash - similar to the
zappers mentioned in "Into the Shadows" - Now if we could just get stats on
them!

OK, you caught the perps . . . how do you keep them?
Here comes the React Belt.
It's about the size of a weightlifting belt, and fits snugly around the
lower back of a prisoner.
As long as the prisoner behaves - null persp.
If he gets uppity - one button sends enough electricity into the lumbar
area to drop a man like a pole-axed horse!
The legs malfunction, and the perp drops to the ground, end of problem.
I'm thinking this is like a 10D stun at least in SR terms.

The last idea was an interesting one, especially considering The Big D's
last request that Lone Star of whoever come up with a non-lethal means of
restraint/capture.
They call it "The Goo Gun"
Basically it sprays a fast drying expandable foam directly onto a target
from a distance of apprx. 10-20 meters - pistol range.
The crap IMMEDIATELY solidifies upon contact, so spraying someone's head is
a quick way to blind them, and spraying the feet seems rather effective as
well.
In the video, the cops sprayed a felon's hand holding a gun.
In seconds the hand and gun were encased in enough goop that he couldn't
hold the hand upright, much less aim, or pull a trigger.

Very interesting - for SR I think I'll work it like the net gun for
targetting, maybe with a STR test to break free.

Any suggestions?

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com./users/bluewizard
"It's your favorite! Applesauce and medecine!"

From:	GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject:	Re: Science Frontiers
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:43:03 -0700

Message no. 2 > From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
> Probably the neatest thing I saw was the Road Patriot..........
> The unit is designed to be fired underneath a car, where it administers a
> huge electric shock to the engine, shorting it out.

Hmmm..I have not heard of this one before..Sounds interesting...

> OK, you caught the perps . . . how do you keep them?
> Here comes the React Belt.......
> As long as the prisoner behaves - null persp.
> If he gets uppity - one button sends enough electricity into the lumbar
> area to drop a man like a pole-axed horse!

Yup..we have a couple of these here at our jail..there are 2 remote
controls for "The Belt" one goes to the Judge and the other in the
hands of a security officer..One push and the Inmate gets an 8 second
charge..We watched a video about this little item..And some big macho
pro football player tried it out..He was hopping around and rolling
and spinning trying to get away from the pain..And there is no way to
turn it off until the entire 8 seconds is up..And for someone getting
stunned that is an eternity..We stunned one guy with a stun gun
[50,000V] for approx 5 seconds and he went unconcious...

> They call it "The Goo Gun"
> Basically it sprays a fast drying expandable foam directly onto a target
> from a distance of approx. 10-20 meters - pistol range...........
> Very interesting - for SR I think I'll work it like the net gun for
> targetting, maybe with a STR test to break free.

And I don't really think it is a good idea to spray this stuff in
some guys face..Think about it...Instant suffocation...Kinda makes a
temporary solution into a permanent one...

There is also a "Sticky Net"..This one works just like the SR
netgun..But the net is coated with some super sticky
substance..instantly enveloping and attaching itself to the escaping
bad guy...

Oh yea..I would say give only 1/2 STR test...in order to break
free..Due to the fluid nature of the stuff...
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer

From:	'Spaceman' WD Lee <spaced@*.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Science Frontiers
Date:	Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:58:25 -0800

Message no. 3 On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Steven A. Tinner wrote:
# The last idea was an interesting one, especially considering The Big D's
# last request that Lone Star of whoever come up with a non-lethal means of
# restraint/capture.
# They call it "The Goo Gun"

Ok, required reading time again. For a really good description of
a device extremely similar to this doohickey, check out Neal Stephenson's
_Snow Crash_. At one point a character named Y.T. gets nabbed by it. He
has a better name for it: the Loogie Gun (I swear, I'm not making this up)

The Spaceman |You are Rosencrantz and Guildenstern.
spaced@*.washington.edu |That is enough.
Check out the Bill Page! | -The Player
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~spaced/bill.html
GCC/GL d- s:++ a-- C++ U+ P+ L>L++ !E W++ N++ o+ K w !O M-- V--
PS+ PE Y+ PGP t 5++ X+ R+ tv b+++ DI+ D+ G+ e+ h r z+
MPA/SH/TA S G Q+ 666 y W C++ N+ PEC+++ Dr

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Science Frontiers
Date:	Wed, 29 Jan 1997 12:11:34 +0000

Message no. 4 <"New" technology snipped>

There's been another program about those "wonder tools"....

The goo-gun has been found to be dangerous. It causes asphyxiation if it
gets in your nose.

The shock belt is totally unusable. Shocking people is just too dangerous,
and we all know how prone to lawsuits the americans are ATM.

The rocket powered scateboard only works on electronic ignition.
(It fries the processor)

On standard rotor-arm vehicles, no problem....

In 205x however..... Who can tell????
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Science Frontiers
Date:	Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:36:27 +0100

Message no. 5 Steven A. Tinner said on 23:53/28 Jan 97...

> OK, you caught the perps . . . how do you keep them?
> Here comes the React Belt.
> It's about the size of a weightlifting belt, and fits snugly around the
> lower back of a prisoner.
> As long as the prisoner behaves - null persp.
> If he gets uppity - one button sends enough electricity into the lumbar
> area to drop a man like a pole-axed horse!
> The legs malfunction, and the perp drops to the ground, end of problem.
> I'm thinking this is like a 10D stun at least in SR terms.

I saw this on TV on a documentary about "non-lethal" weapons, and well...
first of all, what's the use? Handcuffing the suspect is a lot easier and
just as reliable, IMHO. Second, it seems far too open to abuse, even
inviting it -- he won't cooperate 110%? Hit the button!

> They call it "The Goo Gun"
> Basically it sprays a fast drying expandable foam directly onto a target
> from a distance of apprx. 10-20 meters - pistol range.
> The crap IMMEDIATELY solidifies upon contact, so spraying someone's head is
> a quick way to blind them, and spraying the feet seems rather effective as
> well.
> In the video, the cops sprayed a felon's hand holding a gun.
> In seconds the hand and gun were encased in enough goop that he couldn't
> hold the hand upright, much less aim, or pull a trigger.

I've also seen footage of this thing getting tested, and though it seems
less likely to be abused, it's a big thing IIRC (sort of flamethower-size)
and not something you can equip every cop with.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Past Perfect Tense
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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From:	GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject:	Re: Science Frontiers
Date:	Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:52:22 -0700

Message no. 6 > From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> I saw this on TV on a documentary about "non-lethal" weapons, and well...
> first of all, what's the use? Handcuffing the suspect is a lot easier and
> just as reliable, IMHO. Second, it seems far too open to abuse, even
> inviting it -- he won't cooperate 110%? Hit the button!

First it is only used [in the county I work for] for High Risk
Inmates..the thing is way too expensive to replace belly chains or
handcuffs completely..Those High Risk Inmates are the ones most
likely to attempt and escape or to injure either themselves or
someone else..actually use of a stun weapon is less likely to be
abusedthat say tightening hand cuffs just a little bit too tight just
enough to cause the inmate discomfort but not enough to cause
injury.."Yea, that guy wouldn't stop jerking on his cuffs." you would
be supprised how many people do jerk and pull st their cuff for
real...Some people just don't know or care that they are hurting
themselves..All stun weapons leave a [to differing degrees for
different individuals] histamine response mark on the skin..Very
distinctive and very noticable..If this is not properly backed up by
the officers reports..The officer may as well just give the keys to
his house to the inmate...So I will have to dissagree..
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer

From:	The Digital Mage <mn3rge@****.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Science Frontiers
Date:	Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:27:59 +0000

Message no. 7 On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Steven A. Tinner wrote:

> Saw a real cool show on The Learning Channel tonight.
> It detailed some of the new technical breakthroughs in use by the police.
> Many were particularly appropriate for SR.

There was a program over in the Uk on Ch4 calledequinox which looked at
this stuff. They also showed the Aquius (sp?) foam which is piped into
houses etc where criminals are holed up, you can move through it no
problem but visibility is nil and you've got to hold your breath while in
it.

However the main point about the program was that as people thought the
devices were completely non-lethal they were more likely to use them when
tehy weren't really needed and they would use them with less care. Most of
teh devices such as teh goo gun aimed at teh face could do serious damage
and kill.

The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
"So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html

From:	GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject:	Re: Science Frontiers
Date:	Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:52:22 -0700

Message no. 8 > From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
> The shock belt is totally unusable. Shocking people is just too dangerous,
> and we all know how prone to lawsuits the americans are ATM.

The county I work for dissagrees with you..We use the belt and it is
very effective..As well as more comfortable than standard belly
chains for a transport..Stun tech is non-lethal and is less likely to
cause any kind of damage to an individual..the only result to a stun
is a histamine response in the skin that causes reddness in the
contact points...And at least one of the corps that makes these
devices will provide legal support if 1] the user was trained to use
the device 2] use of the device was not outside of the trained
methods [ie, crainial or genetal stuns] 3] the stun weapon used was
made by the corp...
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject:	Re: Science Frontiers
Date:	Fri, 31 Jan 1997 00:42:51 +0000

Message no. 9 In message <199701290450.XAA24838@***.ncweb.com>, "Steven A. Tinner"
<bluewizard@*****.COM> writes
>Saw a real cool show on The Learning Channel tonight.
>It detailed some of the new technical breakthroughs in use by the police.

>OK, you caught the perps . . . how do you keep them?
>Here comes the React Belt.
>If he gets uppity - one button sends enough electricity into the lumbar
>area to drop a man like a pole-axed horse!

I hear the words "cardiac arrest" floating around somewhere. Blasting
someone in the chest with this much electricity could cause some painful
and lasting harm.

>The last idea was an interesting one, especially considering The Big D's
>last request that Lone Star of whoever come up with a non-lethal means of
>restraint/capture.
>They call it "The Goo Gun"
>Basically it sprays a fast drying expandable foam directly onto a target
>from a distance of apprx. 10-20 meters - pistol range.

>The crap IMMEDIATELY solidifies upon contact, so spraying someone's head is
>a quick way to blind them,

Not to mention suffocating them...

>and spraying the feet seems rather effective as
>well.

The tests I saw were at ~10 feet range and the spray was directed at the
torso.

>In the video, the cops sprayed a felon's hand holding a gun.
>In seconds the hand and gun were encased in enough goop that he couldn't
>hold the hand upright, much less aim, or pull a trigger.

"In seconds". Assuming you can hit the hand and keep the stream on
target long enough. In seconds, at that range, I can put four or more
.45 slugs into you: I think that may interfere with your ability to
spray me with goo :)

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject:	Re: Science Frontiers
Date:	Fri, 31 Jan 1997 14:26:23 -0700

Message no. 10 > From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
> >If he gets uppity - one button sends enough electricity into the lumbar
> >area to drop a man like a pole-axed horse!
>
> I hear the words "cardiac arrest" floating around somewhere. Blasting
> someone in the chest with this much electricity could cause some painful
> and lasting harm.

Nope...The stun belt and most other stun devices designed for human
use are high Voltage but extremely low Amperage...Amps are what
kills...for instance our hand held and stun shields produse 50,000V
and .043 Amps this level of amperage is safe [according to the
manufacturer] for use against people with heart conditions and
internal heart stimulation devices...and it hurts to get hit..but
there are no lasting side effects....except when I try and plugg
things into an outlet....
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer

From:	Floating Head <fastjack@****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Science Frontiers
Date:	Sun, 2 Feb 1997 11:12:40 -0500

Message no. 11 At 16:27 1/29/97 +0000, you wrote:

>However the main point about the program was that as people thought the
>devices were completely non-lethal they were more likely to use them when
>tehy weren't really needed and they would use them with less care. Most of
>teh devices such as teh goo gun aimed at teh face could do serious damage
>and kill.
>
> The Digital Mage : mn3rge@****.ac.uk
> "So that which I imagine, is that which I believe" -Rush
> Shadowrun Web Site http://www.bath.ac.uk/~mn3rge/Shadowrun.html
>
>

Just like people that think that they won't kill someone by shooting them
at point blank in the head with a gel round (arrrhgh!)
Floating Head(fastjack@****.net)

"Just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you."

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Science Frontiers
Date:	Mon, 3 Feb 1997 19:07:33 -0500

Message no. 12 Floating Head enlightened us with these words of wisdom:
>Just like people that think that they won't kill someone by shooting them
>at point blank in the head with a gel round (arrrhgh!)

I had someone try that just yesterday....I didn't feel like having an
argument for several hours, so I only had the victim lose an eye.

-=SwiftOne=-

From:	Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject:	Re: Science Frontiers
Date:	Tue, 4 Feb 1997 00:06:03 +0000

Message no. 13 On 3 Feb 97 at 19:07, Brett Borger wrote:

> Floating Head enlightened us with these words of wisdom:
> >Just like people that think that they won't kill someone by shooting them
> >at point blank in the head with a gel round (arrrhgh!)
>
> I had someone try that just yesterday....I didn't feel like having an
> argument for several hours, so I only had the victim lose an eye.
Better then the guy who shot with a Narcoject Pistol to take the
character we had to kidnap alive - and then fired twice to be sure he
hit. Well... he hit twice... Fascinating how fast a shadowrunner team
turns medical ambulance sometimes!

Sascha
--
+---___---------+------------------------------------+------------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |Things that try to look |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@ | like things often do |
| \___ __/ | Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.de | look more like things |
|==== \_/ ======|*Wearing hats is just a way of life*| than things. Well known|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | fact. - E.Weatherwax |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+

From:	Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Science Frontiers
Date:	Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:32:27 GMT

Message no. 14 Sascha Pabst writes
> >
> > I had someone try that just yesterday....I didn't feel like having an
> > argument for several hours, so I only had the victim lose an eye.
> Better then the guy who shot with a Narcoject Pistol to take the
> character we had to kidnap alive - and then fired twice to be sure he
> hit. Well... he hit twice... Fascinating how fast a shadowrunner team
> turns medical ambulance sometimes!
>
Lucky that was the first hit, try it after the local martial artist
has walloped him for an serious stun, seen it done with a taser, zap,
wrap S physical, zap!, 6 overflow, croak!...oops. (lucky they didn't
need to interogate that one)

I have also seen perm kills with stun magic but the poor target was
on about 17 boxes by the time i got at him :(

Mark

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