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Message no. 1
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Screwing the Mage
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:15:35 -0600
"Oh boB, that was so magical ..."

That's not what I mean ... What I mean is, if a mage astrally projects,
can a shaman use a Nature Spirit service have the spirit use Alienation
on the body (for 6.1 hours. :) to prevent the mage from returning?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 2
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Screwing the Mage
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 07:58:37 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, D. Ghost wrote:
/
/ That's not what I mean ... What I mean is, if a mage astrally projects,
/ can a shaman use a Nature Spirit service have the spirit use Alienation
/ on the body (for 6.1 hours. :) to prevent the mage from returning?

I'd say no. Per BBB3 the Alienation power would only be effective on
the physical plane. Since the astral mage is on the astral plane I
don't think the Alienation would affect him.

It would be a lot of fun for the physical PCs though, as they suddenly
realize that the mage's body, which they'd been entrusted to guard, is
suddenly missing :)

-David Buehrer
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 3
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Screwing the Mage
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:35:15 EST
In a message dated 10/26/98 11:58:05 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.COM writes:

> That's not what I mean ... What I mean is, if a mage astrally projects,
> can a shaman use a Nature Spirit service have the spirit use Alienation
> on the body (for 6.1 hours. :) to prevent the mage from returning?

The Alienation power applied to the mage's meat bod will not prevent the mage
from returning to it, it will prevent the mage from interacting with the real
world once they are back in their meatbod until the spirit's duration is
toast.

Oh, and on another subject ... if a shaman (say Moon) went to the moon and
summoned a spirit, say a Desert spirit, how long would it stay? According to
the day and night of the moon (which is an awfully long time)? Or using the
Earth day/night time frames?

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 4
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Screwing the Mage
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:51:39 -0500
Mike Bobroff wrote:
>
> Oh, and on another subject ... if a shaman (say Moon) went to the moon and
> summoned a spirit, say a Desert spirit, how long would it stay? According to
> the day and night of the moon (which is an awfully long time)? Or using the
> Earth day/night time frames?

Er.. I'm hoping this is hypothetical and didn't actually happen in
someone's game.. But in any case, I'd say by Shadowrun metaphysical
theory, it wouldn't be possible to summon a spirit on the moon. There's
no prevalence of life there, and therefore no manasphere. Magic as
practiced on Earth simply wouldn't work.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 5
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Screwing the Mage
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:31:06 -0500
Quoting Steve Eley (sfeley@***.NET):
> Mike Bobroff wrote:
> > Oh, and on another subject ... if a shaman (say Moon) went to the moon and
> > summoned a spirit, say a Desert spirit, how long would it stay? According t
> > the day and night of the moon (which is an awfully long time)? Or using the
> > Earth day/night time frames?
> Er.. I'm hoping this is hypothetical and didn't actually happen in
> someone's game.. But in any case, I'd say by Shadowrun metaphysical
> theory, it wouldn't be possible to summon a spirit on the moon. There's
> no prevalence of life there, and therefore no manasphere. Magic as
> practiced on Earth simply wouldn't work.

Yeah, wouldn't you be prone to the screaming heebee-jeebies that people
get when they try to astrally perceive or project outside of the atmosphere?
And even if you managed to summon SOMETHING, who knows what it would be....

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 6
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Screwing the Mage
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:21:02 -0600
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 9:37 AM

>Oh, and on another subject ... if a shaman (say Moon) went to the moon
>and summoned a spirit, say a Desert spirit, how long would it stay?

The problem, of course, with this is that the moon is a quarter-million
miles away; the edge of the atmosphere is also the edge of the manasphere.
Try to project or cast a spell, and it's my understanding that a lot of
nasty things happen.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 7
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Screwing the Mage
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 15:23:36 -0600
:That's not what I mean ... What I mean is, if a mage astrally projects,
:can a shaman use a Nature Spirit service have the spirit use Alienation
:on the body (for 6.1 hours. :) to prevent the mage from returning?


Alienation is a mana effect (oops, wait, its not in SR3).

I'd say no, using something like "concealment" would not make finding
the body harder, since the mage follows the "silver thread" back (which
only he can see, afaik, and nothing can directly effect). It might be
possible to fool hi into thinking the body was moved, thus requiring just
such a search, however.
Either way, if you want the mage dead, and are there physically (as
would be required, to affect the body with magic), there's easier ways to
kill.

Mongoose
Message no. 8
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Screwing the Mage
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 00:50:24 EST
In a message dated 10/27/1998 10:51:48 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
sfeley@***.NET writes:

>
> Mike Bobroff wrote:
> >
> > Oh, and on another subject ... if a shaman (say Moon) went to the moon
and
> > summoned a spirit, say a Desert spirit, how long would it stay?
According
> to
> > the day and night of the moon (which is an awfully long time)? Or using
> the
> > Earth day/night time frames?
>
> Er.. I'm hoping this is hypothetical and didn't actually happen in
> someone's game.. But in any case, I'd say by Shadowrun metaphysical
> theory, it wouldn't be possible to summon a spirit on the moon. There's
> no prevalence of life there, and therefore no manasphere. Magic as
> practiced on Earth simply wouldn't work.
>
Mike was afraid that this would be the reply. What he is asking is the purely
hypothetical, that *if* it could be done, assuming there was *some* mana
present, what would be the duration of the spirit conjured on the moon. There
are day/night rotations, they are just two-some-odd weeks in duration versus
the 24 rotation cycle we have.

-K
Message no. 9
From: "XaOs [David Goth]" <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Screwing the Mage
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 00:00:44 -0600
> Mike was afraid that this would be the reply. What he is asking
> is the purely
> hypothetical, that *if* it could be done, assuming there was *some* mana
> present, what would be the duration of the spirit conjured on the
> moon. There
> are day/night rotations, they are just two-some-odd weeks in
> duration versus
> the 24 rotation cycle we have.

Well...kinda. The equivalent to the 24 hour cycle that we have, is 28 days
long. Which is why the same face always faces earth. (I could easily be
using bad logic here...that's just how I'm picturing it in my mind.
Lessee...full, quarter, new, 3/4...yup. I think that works).
Message no. 10
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Screwing the Mage
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 00:29:22 -0600
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 11:50 PM

>Mike was afraid that this would be the reply. What he is asking is
>the purely hypothetical, that *if* it could be done, assuming there
>was *some* mana present, what would be the duration of the spirit
>conjured on the moon. There are day/night rotations, they are just
>two-some-odd weeks in duration versus the 24 rotation cycle we have.

Since we're speaking in terms of pure hypothesis: My interpretation of the
rules says that sunrise to sunset (or vice versa) means just that, whether
the period between the two is roughly twelve hours or roughly fifteen Earth
days. I think it's the sun the spirits respect, not the ticking of the
clock.

Your mileage, of course, may vary.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 11
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Screwing the Mage
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:44:03 -0500
K in the Shadows wrote:
>
> In a message dated 10/27/1998 10:51:48 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
> sfeley@***.NET writes:
> >
> > Er.. I'm hoping this is hypothetical and didn't actually happen in
> > someone's game.. But in any case, I'd say by Shadowrun metaphysical
> > theory, it wouldn't be possible to summon a spirit on the moon. There's
> > no prevalence of life there, and therefore no manasphere. Magic as
> > practiced on Earth simply wouldn't work.
> >
> Mike was afraid that this would be the reply. What he is asking is the purely
> hypothetical, that *if* it could be done, assuming there was *some* mana
> present, what would be the duration of the spirit conjured on the moon. There
> are day/night rotations, they are just two-some-odd weeks in duration versus
> the 24 rotation cycle we have.


It's *all* "purely hypothetical." This is a role-playing game. Since
you're asking about something that doesn't exist in the published game --
that is in fact impossible according to the published game's background --
the only way to answer the question is to make something up.

Therefore I think Mike Bobroff (or you, or whoever is doing the asking)
should just pick a house rule that pleases you, and leave it there. You
can't really have a logical discussion about it; it's like asking, "If the
sky were really red, how would this have influenced Picasso's Blue
Period?"


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 12
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Screwing the Mage
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:27:04 -0500
On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, XaOs [David Goth] wrote:

->> Mike was afraid that this would be the reply. What he is asking
->> is the purely
->> hypothetical, that *if* it could be done, assuming there was *some* mana
->> present, what would be the duration of the spirit conjured on the
->> moon. There
->> are day/night rotations, they are just two-some-odd weeks in
->> duration versus
->> the 24 rotation cycle we have.
->
->Well...kinda. The equivalent to the 24 hour cycle that we have, is 28 days
->long. Which is why the same face always faces earth. (I could easily be
->using bad logic here...that's just how I'm picturing it in my mind.
->Lessee...full, quarter, new, 3/4...yup. I think that works).

Think of the odds of an orbital body that just happens to have a
spin that coincides perfectly with it's orbit around a larger body. The
sole effect of which is that we always see one side of that body. Almost
makes you wonder, given the odds, if it was intentional..... <spooky
sounds>
Oh, and to those that participate, Happy Halloween (early, but
I'll forget later).

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 13
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Screwing the Mage
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 12:43:38 -0500
Quoting Fixer (fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US):
> Think of the odds of an orbital body that just happens to have a
> spin that coincides perfectly with it's orbit around a larger body. The
> sole effect of which is that we always see one side of that body. Almost
> makes you wonder, given the odds, if it was intentional..... <spooky
> sounds>
> Oh, and to those that participate, Happy Halloween (early, but
> I'll forget later).
>

I'm Not an Orbital Physicist, But...

Actually, it's not all THAT unlikely, if (as I believe is theorized)
the Earth and the Moon were originally a single spinning mass (WAY back, when
the planets were forming), and the moon 'spun off' before they solidified.
If you tie a rope to something and spin it around your head, the same side
of the object will always be facing you. If you could somehow cut the rope
and keep the object moving in the same way (like, say, because it was orbitting
you), it'd keep the same rate of spin and still have just one side constantly
facing you. The more surprising thing is that Earth DOESN'T spin at a rate
that would keep the same side always facing the moon, and I'd guess that's
because it compressed (and thus sped up) as it cooled.
But as people have pointed out before, I just pull these things out
of my ass, because I'm too lazy to look it up. So don't take this conjecture
to a physics test with you :)

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 14
From: Mike Elkins <Mike_Elkins@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Screwing the Mage
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 14:05:37 -0500
<snip: why does the moon always face the earth>

Answer: a mechanism called "Tidal Locking". Just as the moon creates tides
in water on the earth, the earth creates tides in the rocks of the moon.
Because rock can't flow like water, it just stretches a little in place.
Anyway, this stretch and release, stretch and release takes energy and
turns it into friction generated heat. The loss of energy makes the moon
spin just a little bit slower. Now imagine what happens when the moon
slows down to 1 revolution per month: suddenly there is no more tidal
friction, it stays there. If it ever slows down a bit (by being hit JUST
RIGHT by a comet, for instance), the tidal forces will actually "pull it
forward" a little bit, speeding it up. And there you have it, a situation
that will last forever, or September 13, 1999*, whichever comes first.

Double-Domed Mike
*The date Moonbase Alpha was blasted out of Earth orbit, and thus no longer
subject to Earth's tides.
Message no. 15
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Screwing the Mage
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:40:03 EST
In a message dated 10/27/98 10:51:56 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
sfeley@***.NET writes:

> > Oh, and on another subject ... if a shaman (say Moon) went to the moon and
> > summoned a spirit, say a Desert spirit, how long would it stay?
According
> to
> > the day and night of the moon (which is an awfully long time)? Or using
> the
> > Earth day/night time frames?
>
> Er.. I'm hoping this is hypothetical and didn't actually happen in
> someone's game.. But in any case, I'd say by Shadowrun metaphysical
> theory, it wouldn't be possible to summon a spirit on the moon. There's
> no prevalence of life there, and therefore no manasphere. Magic as
> practiced on Earth simply wouldn't work.

Okay, I do understand that, but supposing you could conjure up a spirit on the
moon, what would you use as the time of duration for the spirit?

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 16
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Screwing the Mage
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:46:46 EST
In a message dated 10/27/98 11:43:58 AM US Eastern Standard Time, remo@***.NET
writes:

> >Oh, and on another subject ... if a shaman (say Moon) went to the moon
> >and summoned a spirit, say a Desert spirit, how long would it stay?
>
> The problem, of course, with this is that the moon is a quarter-million
> miles away; the edge of the atmosphere is also the edge of the manasphere.
> Try to project or cast a spell, and it's my understanding that a lot of
> nasty things happen.

But what, in your opinion, would be the time of duration for a spirit if it
were summoned on the Moon, if this were possible at all?

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 17
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Screwing the Mage
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:59:41 EST
In a message dated 10/28/98 9:44:32 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
sfeley@***.NET writes:

> Therefore I think Mike Bobroff (or you, or whoever is doing the asking)
> should just pick a house rule that pleases you, and leave it there. You
> can't really have a logical discussion about it; it's like asking, "If the
> sky were really red, how would this have influenced Picasso's Blue
> Period?"

Yes, it was I, Mike Bobroff, who did the asking ... and I am interested in
seeing what you guys would suggest as an answer ... that is why I asked the
question ...

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 18
From: Michael R Papas <michaelp@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Screwing the Mage
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 21:39:28 -0800
---Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM> wrote:
> Oh, and on another subject ... if a shaman (say
> Moon) went to the moon and summoned a spirit,
> say a Desert spirit, how long would it stay?
> According to the day and night of the moon
> (which is an awfully long time)? Or using
> the Earth day/night time frames?
-----< snipped SR magical theory >-----
> Okay, I do understand that, but supposing you
> could conjure up a spirit on the moon, what
> would you use as the time of duration for the
> spirit?
> -Herc> ------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

My best guess would be to use the time-frame of
the shaman's native bio-sphere. I would hazard this
theory on the basis that magic (especially shamanism)
is a personal experience, and would use personal
definitions of things such as time. In other words,
I would use the time-frame of Earth's rotation.

I may be wrong, but this is what I believe would
happen. Fire away (If I am wrong) ;)

Ithanyel E. Ashkevaron
-- "Artic storm of blizzard's night,"
-- "Twillight's flame of darkling light"
<mailto:michaelp@****.com>
Message no. 19
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Screwing the Mage
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 19:02:19 -0600
:->Well...kinda. The equivalent to the 24 hour cycle that we have, is 28
days
:->long. Which is why the same face always faces earth. (I could easily be
:->using bad logic here...that's just how I'm picturing it in my mind.
:->Lessee...full, quarter, new, 3/4...yup. I think that works).
:
: Think of the odds of an orbital body that just happens to have a
:spin that coincides perfectly with it's orbit around a larger body. The
:sole effect of which is that we always see one side of that body. Almost
:makes you wonder, given the odds, if it was intentional..... <spooky
:sounds>
: Oh, and to those that participate, Happy Halloween (early, but
:I'll forget later).


Or, it was caused by tidal effects, which naturally reduce rotation
until exactly this effect occurs. The term is "tidal locking", I think;
its the most
common rotation periods for moons. K had his cause and effect reversed;
tides make one side face the earth, which means moon days are 28 earth
days long. No "spookiness" required; its a basic fact of Newtonian
gravity, even.

Mongoose
Message no. 20
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Screwing the Mage
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 15:54:08 EST
In a message dated 10/29/98 12:55:40 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
michaelp@****.COM writes:

> ---Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM> wrote:
> > Oh, and on another subject ... if a shaman (say
> > Moon) went to the moon and summoned a spirit,
> > say a Desert spirit, how long would it stay?
> > According to the day and night of the moon
> > (which is an awfully long time)? Or using
> > the Earth day/night time frames?
> -----< snipped SR magical theory >-----
> > Okay, I do understand that, but supposing you
> > could conjure up a spirit on the moon, what
> > would you use as the time of duration for the
> > spirit?
> > -Herc> ------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
>
> My best guess would be to use the time-frame of
> the shaman's native bio-sphere. I would hazard this
> theory on the basis that magic (especially shamanism)
> is a personal experience, and would use personal
> definitions of things such as time. In other words,
> I would use the time-frame of Earth's rotation.
>
> I may be wrong, but this is what I believe would
> happen. Fire away (If I am wrong) ;)
>
Ithyanel (sic, I hope I got that right, otherwise sorry), I like your idea,
which in this case means that I want to have a mage character that comes from
the Moon then.

Perhaps another possible idea. What if instead of being based on the shaman's
magic perspective, how about using the standard 12 hour duration for spirits
and tack on say the shaman's charisma as additional hours that the spirit gets
to hang around for?

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 21
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Screwing the Mage
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 17:54:16 EST
In a message dated 10/29/1998 1:26:54 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
evamarie@**********.net writes:

<snipped the two examples>

> Or, it was caused by tidal effects, which naturally reduce rotation
> until exactly this effect occurs. The term is "tidal locking", I think;
> its the most
> common rotation periods for moons. K had his cause and effect reversed;
> tides make one side face the earth, which means moon days are 28 earth
> days long. No "spookiness" required; its a basic fact of Newtonian
> gravity, even.
>
> Mongoose

I am gonna just point this out that I didn't have anything flipped in those
two examples, as none of those two sections so quoted were mine.

As for Cause/Effect and said reversals, doesn't this fall along the same
argument lines as the Chicken and the Egg???

-K (who is just looking to poke some fun now ;)

Further Reading

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Thwap!