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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bryan Pow)
Subject: Seattle Population-Low
Date: Wed Sep 5 12:45:01 2001
Why is it that the population of settle in 2060 is only about 3 million?
Sure, vitas and goblinization and other factors would have slowed the
population growth a little, but 3 Million!!
The city has spread to engulf the neighbouring cities!
ts one of the Major cities on the west coast!
Its a Metroplex, a Spawl!
And it got an injection of americans kicked out of NAN!
I just think that 3 million is such a pidly wee number!


--
Ein scharfes Schwert schneidet sehr, eine scharfe Zunge noch viel mehr.
The tongue is sharper than any sword.
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Peter Mikulsky)
Subject: Seattle Population-Low
Date: Wed Sep 5 14:00:01 2001
Hello Bryan,

Wednesday, September 05, 2001, 6:41:47 PM, you wrote:

> Why is it that the population of settle in 2060 is only about 3 million?
> Sure, vitas and goblinization and other factors would have slowed the
> population growth a little, but 3 Million!!
> The city has spread to engulf the neighbouring cities!
> ts one of the Major cities on the west coast!
> Its a Metroplex, a Spawl!
> And it got an injection of americans kicked out of NAN!
> I just think that 3 million is such a pidly wee number!

That means 3 Million people with a SIN, there will be a lot of more
SINless people in Seattle.

--
Best regards,
Peter
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Seattle Population-Low
Date: Wed Sep 5 15:10:17 2001
>Why is it that the population of settle in 2060 is only about 3 million?
>Sure, vitas and goblinization and other factors would have slowed the
>population growth a little, but 3 Million!!
> The city has spread to engulf the neighbouring cities!
> ts one of the Major cities on the west coast!
> Its a Metroplex, a Spawl!
> And it got an injection of americans kicked out of NAN!
> I just think that 3 million is such a pidly wee number!

It's 3 million REGISTERED citizens (ie those with SINs).
Of course there's over 3 million people on Seattle, the barrens alone house
300,000.
(at least in my game, both above and bellow the streets)
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Fenris F-e-n-r-i-s)
Subject: Seattle Population-Low
Date: Wed Sep 5 16:05:01 2001
>
>Why is it that the population of settle in 2060 is only about 3 million?
>Sure, vitas and goblinization and other factors would have slowed the
>population growth a little, but 3 Million!!
> The city has spread to engulf the neighbouring cities!
> ts one of the Major cities on the west coast!
> Its a Metroplex, a Spawl!
> And it got an injection of americans kicked out of NAN!
> I just think that 3 million is such a pidly wee number!
>
>
The New Seattle sourcebook says 3,000,000 +
That's because they can only count people who have SIN's, remember???
The number of SINless far outnumber the amount of people WITH SIN's, so this
number is very inaccurate, just about as inaccurate as the U.S. Census. (
and less used, too )

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Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Seattle Population-Low
Date: Wed Sep 5 17:35:03 2001
On Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:57:24 +0200
PeterMikulsky@********.de (Peter Mikulsky) wrote:

> That means 3 Million people with a SIN, there will be a lot of more
> SINless people in Seattle.

The unregistered population can't be that large... If there were more SINless
people than SINners, they'd at least figure in the population count!

--
Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://www.shadowland.com.br
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.f2s.com
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Dale C. Blessing)
Subject: Seattle Population-Low
Date: Wed Sep 5 20:15:01 2001
--- Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 5 Sep 2001 19:57:24 +0200
> PeterMikulsky@********.de (Peter Mikulsky) wrote:
>
> > That means 3 Million people with a SIN, there will
> be a lot of more
> > SINless people in Seattle.
>
> The unregistered population can't be that
> large... If there were more SINless people than
> SINners, they'd at least figure in the population
> count!
> Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
[SNIP}

NOT if the powers-that-be refused to admit that they
exist and REFUSED to count them.(This has happened in
the RW. Certain governments have refused to
acknowledge the existance of minority groups in their
countries. Some places these minority groups were
considered "animals" and hunted for sport.

Dale


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Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Seattle Population-Low
Date: Wed Sep 5 20:35:01 2001
On Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:09:53 -0700 (PDT)
"Dale C. Blessing" <mechahunter@*****.com> wrote:

> > The unregistered population can't be that
> > large... If there were more SINless people than
> > SINners, they'd at least figure in the population
> > count!
> > Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
> [SNIP}
>
> NOT if the powers-that-be refused to admit that they
> exist and REFUSED to count them.(This has happened in
> the RW. Certain governments have refused to
> acknowledge the existance of minority groups in their
> countries. Some places these minority groups were
> considered "animals" and hunted for sport.
>
> Dale

But it's not exactly the same thing... If what everyone else is saying is true
(that there's more SINless people than registered citizens), then theSINless are the
_majority_. And, according to the SR3 basic book, they have a few rights according to UCAS
law. Even if no one cares when these rights are disrespected, the census people would
still count the SINless among the population, just out of principle. They may not make the
effort to register all of them, but most SINless don't make any effort to hide, and would
be quite easy to reach.

The very least they would do is change the "Population" label to
"Registered Citizens", which is closer to what the number actually represents.

--
Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://www.shadowland.com.br
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.f2s.com
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (CJ Tipton)
Subject: Seattle Population-Low
Date: Thu Sep 6 01:55:09 2001
On Wed, 05 Sep 2001 21:27:31 -0300 Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br> writes:

>
Even
> if no one cares when these rights are disrespected, the census
> people would still count the SINless among the population, just out
> of principle.

No corporater or government employee in his or her right mind would have
anything whatsoever to do with a principle.
Principles are invariably detrimental to the bottom line, as is the urge
to register people who don't matter.

Think of this in terms of man-hours. It is not in the governments best
interest to spend even a minute recording the statistics of someone who
cannot vote,
legally hold employment or legally own property. It is certainly then not
in their best interest to spend thousands of man hours tabulating how
many of these
worthless SOBs their are.

If your really wanted to find out how many people there would be in
Seattle in the Awakened Age, you might try taking the census figures for
the entire area,
as of 2000, perhaps reduced slightly for VITAS and such, and treat the
result as an actual population, while retaining the New Seattle info as
the number of people
with SINs: aka the number of peoples lives that actually affect a corps
bottom line.

Cowboy( is the most cynical guy you'll ever meet)
CJ
Arkades@****.com
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Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (david lowe-rogstad)
Subject: Seattle Population-Low
Date: Thu Sep 6 02:35:06 2001
At 12:50 AM -0500 9/6/01, CJ Tipton wrote:
>If your really wanted to find out how many people there would be in
>Seattle in the Awakened Age, you might try taking the census figures for
>the entire area,
>as of 2000, perhaps reduced slightly for VITAS and such, and treat the
>result as an actual population, while retaining the New Seattle info as
>the number of people
>with SINs: aka the number of peoples lives that actually affect a corps
>bottom line.


according to the us census web site, in the year 2000, the total
population of king county is 1.7 million, the total population of the
city of seattle is just over 563,000. it shows a population density
of king county between 550 and 800 persons per square mile.

so, three million (documented) people over the seattle sprawl (which
is smaller than all of king county i would imagine) is somewhat
dense. i'd give a rough figure of 1000 to 1500 persons per square
mile. still, it's a lot less dense than new york, san francisco,
chicago, or similar major cities today (2000).

hope this helps.
--
david lowe-rogstad


dlowe@****.com
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Seattle Population-Low
Date: Sat Sep 8 02:20:10 2001
CJ Tipton writes:

> No corporater or government employee in his or her right mind would have
> anything whatsoever to do with a principle. Principles are invariably
> detrimental to the bottom line, as is the urge to register people who don't
> matter.
>

> Think of this in terms of man-hours. It is not in the governments best
> interest to spend even a minute recording the statistics of someone who
> cannot vote, legally hold employment or legally own property. It is
> certainly then not in their best interest to spend thousands of man hours
> tabulating how many of these worthless SOBs their are.

Well, I don't entirely agree with this. At the very minimum, government and
similar agencies would like an approximate estimation if SINless people were
a large portion of the population. After all, they still use public
infrastructure like roads and such, so government planners can't ignore
them. If they did, then they would vastly underestimate when planning city
services and the like, and everything would screw up. "What, Mr Politician?
You say your government ignored the 67% of SINless population when you
funded the new sewerage works? Is this the reason toilets all over Bellvue
are backing up and half the city is inundated with raw sewerage? How could
you make such a stupid mistake?"

OTOH, I do not ever recall reading that the SINless population outnumbered
the SINned population in Seattle. I was always of the opinion that it was
large enough to be noticeable, but not large enough to dramatically affect
things. Say 10%?

> If your really wanted to find out how many people there would be in
> Seattle in the Awakened Age, you might try taking the census figures for
> the entire area, as of 2000, perhaps reduced slightly for VITAS and such,
> and treat the result as an actual population, while retaining the New
> Seattle info as the number of people with SINs: aka the number of peoples
> lives that actually affect a corps bottom line.

The designers of SR made things fairly easy for by and large. For example,
the nuyen is worth about the same as a modern day US$. The population of most
places in SR is about the same as it is today. The reason for this is that
even though there's been 60 years of population growth, this was almost
exactly countered by the two VITAS epidemics. So SR era New York probably
has the same population (or thereabouts) as modern day New York.

OTOH, this is a little skewed for places like Seattle, as their population
increased a fair bit with displaced non-native American citizens during the
breakup of the US. Oh well, we can't have everything.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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