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Message no. 1
From: Jarmo Karonen jarmo.karonen@***.fi
Subject: Seattle related questions
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 19:48:20 +0300
Here's a couple of things I need clarified:

When was Renraku Arcology completed? I have here the original Seattle
Sourcebook that says it's estimated to be completed in late summer 2054.
Is there any canon material that would confirm that it really was
completed then?

What special is there to Ancients, the gang? Seattle sourcebooks
mentions them, but really does not give anything else. Anyway, for some
reason, I'm under expression that there's something special in this
gang... Could someone lighten me, tell me why they are extraordinary
gang? What sourcebook or other product tells more about them?

Thanks in advance.

- Jarmo Karonen





From renouf@********.com Fri, 11 Jun 1999 13:03:02 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 13:03:02 -0400 (EDT)
From
Message no. 2
From: Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject: Seattle related questions
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 11:18:38 CST
>What special is there to Ancients, the gang? Seattle sourcebooks
>mentions them, but really does not give anything else. Anyway, for some
>reason, I'm under expression that there's something special in this
>gang... Could someone lighten me, tell me why they are extraordinary
>gang? What sourcebook or other product tells more about them?

Check "The Underworld Sourcebook" they have a bit on them. They were in
some short stories but I don't know where they were or what they were
called.

>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>- Jarmo Karonen
>
>
>


Geoff Haacke
"if you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."


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From cyberraven@********.net Fri, 11 Jun 1999 13:22:15 -0400
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 13:22:15 -0400
From: IronRa
Message no. 3
From: Karsten_DÃŒrotin karsten@****.net
Subject: Seattle related questions
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 09:12:39 +0200
>>What special is there to Ancients, the gang? Seattle sourcebooks
>>mentions them, but really does not give anything else. Anyway, for
some
>>reason, I'm under expression that there's something special in this
>>gang... Could someone lighten me, tell me why they are extraordinary
>>gang? What sourcebook or other product tells more about them?
>
>Check "The Underworld Sourcebook" they have a bit on them. They were
in
>some short stories but I don't know where they were or what they were
>called.


Not to forget the old Adventure Book "Elven Fire", which gave a lot of
detail about the Ancients and also set a distinct feeling for them which
makes them (IMHO) cooler than most other gangs.

--- Karsten





From dghost@****.com Sat, 12 Jun 1999 03:21:01 -0500
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 03:21:01 -0500
From: dghost@****.co
Message no. 4
From: Jarmo Karonen jarmo.karonen@***.fi
Subject: Seattle related questions
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 15:15:47 +0300
>Your one-stop source for just about all available information about the
>Renraku Arcology is the book Renraku Arcology: Shutdown. October 2059
is
>when it was expected to be completed (that "was written" earlier in
2059,
>so it's reasonably accurate, I guess). Things went out of control
during
>the grand opening in December '59.

Is there any information why the five year holdup? I mean, in Seattle
Sourcebook it says that Renraku is expected to be completed in summer
2054 and now RA:S gives us the end of 2059... Is there a story here?

Well anyway, RA:S is a one book I have planned to get pretty soon.


- Jarmo Karonen





From jarmo.karonen@***.fi Sat, 12 Jun 1999 15:33:27 +0300
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 15:33:27 +0300
From: Jarmo Kar
Message no. 5
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Seattle related questions
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:49:58 +0200
> Is there any information why the five year holdup?

I'm not sure. I read the book once, soon after it came out, and only spent
a few minutes looking through it this morning. The blurb about the actual
arcology (before the shutdown) in RA:S is promotional material by Renraku,
so I wouldn't expect too much background on the delays...

However, construction was started in 2040, and if such a project is
supposed to be complete about 15 years later, well... we all know how big
construction projects have this tendency to take longer and cost more than
originally planned, right?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here I am, still intact, and I should give myself credit for that
-- Tilt, "Unravel"
-> ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998




From razrzedge@*****.com Sat, 12 Jun 1999 10:56:29 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 10:56:29 -0700 (PDT)
From
Message no. 6
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Seattle related questions
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:07:03 -0500
:When was Renraku Arcology completed? I have here the original Seattle
:Sourcebook that says it's estimated to be completed in late summer 2054.
:Is there any canon material that would confirm that it really was
:completed then?

"Renraku Arcology Shutdown" should be a good source...
Apparentlyu there were some construction delays, resulting in a new
construction manager being hired (not a spoiler, BTW). The Arc was
completed in October 2059, but I think people were living and working there
earlir than that; with 400 floors, who cares if they are still doing work
200 floors above you?

:What special is there to Ancients, the gang? Seattle sourcebooks
:mentions them, but really does not give anything else. Anyway, for some
:reason, I'm under expression that there's something special in this
:gang... Could someone lighten me, tell me why they are extraordinary
:gang? What sourcebook or other product tells more about them?


The Shadowrun Companion gives some info on thier history, as part of the
"alternate camapigns" background info. Nothing really special about them-
just like theres nothing really special about the Hells Angels! They are
strong because they have members across a wide area and connections to
organized crime, and, if you believe the rumours, Tit Tairgire governement
"dirty tricks" divisions. Thats not so unusual for gangs, though; its a
pretty well known fact fact that my local Chicago alderman (IRL) hires gangs
to terorize his political opponants. The Ancients would just give the Tir
the abilty to do that across national borders...

Mongoose





From dghost@****.com Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:07:14 -0500
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:07:14 -0500
From: dghost@****.co
Message no. 7
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Seattle related questions
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:45:08 +0200
To me, that is entirely what Essence Loss and Body Index tracking are all
about...

-K




From Ereskanti@***.com Sat, 12 Jun 1999 16:37:38 EDT
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 16:37:38 EDT
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: SR3 and movement

In a message dated 6/12/1999 11:58:45 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
ljvance@*******.edu writes:

> >No Justin, actually it doesn't. Not entirely anyway. I understand what
> both
> >of you are trying to say, but for some reason I keep remembering the
> >difference between Voluntary and Involuntary Muscle systems in the body.
>
> Don't forget that any involuntary muscle can become a voluntary muscle.
> There are people who spend their whole lives in this pursuit. Now what if
> these cyber/bio improvements help with those? Justification?

Again, within the scope of the game mechanics. NO, none whatsoever.
However, in the whole-world picture of things, yes, again I agree with you.
And btw, there are certain sets of muscles/neural connections that biorhythms
have yet to link down for some reason. Most of them are in the far reaching
ends of the body believe it or not, and not the central organism. In other
words, there are more problems with the outer fingertips/toes than there are
with the heart, lungs, etc...

Go figure.

-K




From Ereskanti@***.com Sat, 12 Jun 1999 16:41:22 EDT
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 16:41:22 EDT
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Imortal Elves=Dragon Kin?

In a message dated 6/12/1999 12:56:36 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
razrzedge@*****.com writes:

Gosh there's a lot here...

> Also, do dragons follow all the same traditions in the
> sixth world as they claim to in the fourth?

I would say most vehemently no. Dunkelzahn and Lofwyr especially, believe it
or not, as they are massively interacting with greater humanity, and in fact,
on a scale that far exceeds anything they were capable of in previous "Ages".

>The dragon
> flight over Dunklezahn's mana warp is an example of
>
Message no. 8
From: Jarmo Karonen jarmo.karonen@***.fi
Subject: Seattle related questions
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 13:41:38 +0300
-K




From u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk Sun, 13 Jun 1999 17:21:33 +0100 (BST)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 17:21:33 +0100 (BST)
From: A Halliwell u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk
Subject: [T-shirt] Name List

And verily, didst Graht hastily scribble thusly...
|If you don't want a T-shirt this year because you feel that the back of the
|shirt is a billboard, and not something you want to display on your person,
|then I won't hold it aga
Message no. 9
From: Tarek Okail Tarek_Okail@**********.com
Subject: Seattle related questions
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 20:40:46 -0400
Jarmo--

>Is there any information why the five year holdup? I mean, in
>Seattle Sourcebook it says that Renraku is expected to be completed
>in summer 2054 and now RA:S gives us the end of 2059... Is there a
>story here?

Actually, no, there is no story here. In any lg. construction
project there are *always* delays and cost overruns. The degree of the
problem depends on the size of the structure. For the Renraku Arcology
a five-year delay in completion is reasonable and typical.
Another little point: In such a large structure, the actual
floorplan will deviate from the construction blueprints. I remember
once touring a construction site and being told that the project had
a couple of stairwells that were about ten feet deeper than they should
be. They also had a minor problem with the elevator shafts that was
being corrected; it seems that past the 8th floor the elevator shafts
were 6 inches narrower than they should have been. And this was a 12
floor combination residence/office building. Much smaller than the
Renraku Arcology.
Egregious and massive errors would have been corrected during
construction, but the little errors would probably have been left in
place. The process of correcting these errors, and the inevitable wait
for building materials, etc. could easily account for that five year
delay.
It might be a good way to divert 'runners, if they base their
plans on the building blueprints only to find that, say, a stairwell
that they wanted to use doesn't connect to the hallway to which they
need to get.

Shadowmage
Message no. 10
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Seattle related questions
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 23:10:24 -0700 (PDT)
> What special is there to Ancients, the gang? Seattle sourcebooks
mentions them, but really does not give anything else. Anyway, for some
reason, I'm under expression that there's something special in this
gang... Could someone lighten me, tell me why they are extraordinary
gang? What sourcebook or other product tells more about them?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> - Jarmo Karonen

They're the biggest gang in all of Seattle, and, in all likelihood, in
all of North America (one of the few first tier gangs - see Underworld
Sourcebook - in NA). They're all elves - which is pretty darn
interesting/impressive when you consider that they have 400 members in
Seattle alone. And, yes, most of all, their leaders are - or were -
agents of the Tir. Possible spoiler to follow.

Y
e
a
h
,

b
i
t
e

m
e
.

L
i
k
e

t
h
i
s

i
s

a

s
p
o
i
l
e
r

r
e
a
l
l
y.

IIRC, it mentions in the Underworld Sourcebook that, while the Ancients
used to be FAIRLY openly associated with the Tir, their current leaders
have severed that link...officially. In fact, they're actually working
more hand in glove with the Tir than before, if I'm not mistaken. Now,
Mongoose, I hate to disagree with you, ( :) ), but I think that makes
them pretty special. A crooked politician hiring a local gang is one
thing. A foreign (and potentially hostile) power running what amounts
to a large, black-bag paramilitary force in heaps of your (and your
neighbours' for that matter) cities is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

Btw, if everyone knows your alderman is doing that, Mongoose, why
hasn't someone exposed him?

*Doc' finds it weird that people in America would resort to criminal
tactics to get a job that no one would give a devil-rat's arse for in
Australia. Politics of power, neh?*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 11
From: Iridios iridios@*********.com
Subject: Seattle related questions
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 08:19:49 -0400
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> Btw, if everyone knows your alderman is doing that, Mongoose, why
> hasn't someone exposed him?

No-one exposed him, because it's not surprising or shocking to the
locals. Mongoose lives in Chicago, which has an extremely rich
history of criminal activity.

--
Iridios
"Accept what you cannot avoid,
Avoid what you cannot accept."
Message no. 12
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Seattle related questions
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 22:55:46 -0700 (PDT)
> > Btw, if everyone knows your alderman is doing that, Mongoose, why
hasn't someone exposed him?
>
> No-one exposed him, because it's not surprising or shocking to the
locals. Mongoose lives in Chicago, which has an extremely rich history
of criminal activity.
> Iridios

Oh, come on, Iridios. That's the kind of thinking that perpetuates this
lovely criminal history. :)

Seriously, though, while that may be SOP under the boards, I'm sure
that if it became official public knowledge SOMEONE would do something
about it, wouldn't they? And no, I'm not thinking of the Mob there. :)

*Doc' tries to undo the laces of his cement shoes...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

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Message no. 13
From: Iridios iridios@*********.com
Subject: Seattle related questions
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:37:01 -0400
Rand Ratinac wrote:
>
> > > Btw, if everyone knows your alderman is doing that, Mongoose, why
> hasn't someone exposed him?
> >
> > No-one exposed him, because it's not surprising or shocking to the
> locals. Mongoose lives in Chicago, which has an extremely rich history
> of criminal activity.
> > Iridios
>
> Oh, come on, Iridios. That's the kind of thinking that perpetuates this
> lovely criminal history. :)

Hey, what can I say? This is America. :)

>
> Seriously, though, while that may be SOP under the boards, I'm sure
> that if it became official public knowledge SOMEONE would do something
> about it, wouldn't they? And no, I'm not thinking of the Mob there. :)

Well if some politician were stupid enough to leave hard evidence or
make a stupid comment, then something is done about it. But more
often than not stories of criminal ties are only little more than
inneundo and rumor, often it is discounted as mud slinging coming from
the opposition.

>
> *Doc' tries to undo the laces of his cement shoes...*

No need to worry about the shoes Doc', just have a good cover story
for the kilo of coke that'll be found in your doss. ;)

--
Iridios
"Accept what you cannot avoid,
Avoid what you cannot accept."
Message no. 14
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Seattle related questions
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 14:28:10 -0500
:> > Btw, if everyone knows your alderman is doing that, Mongoose, why
:hasn't someone exposed him?
:>
:> No-one exposed him, because it's not surprising or shocking to the
:locals. Mongoose lives in Chicago, which has an extremely rich history
:of criminal activity.
:> Iridios
:
:Oh, come on, Iridios. That's the kind of thinking that perpetuates this
:lovely criminal history. :)
:
:Seriously, though, while that may be SOP under the boards, I'm sure
:that if it became official public knowledge SOMEONE would do something
:about it, wouldn't they? And no, I'm not thinking of the Mob there. :)
:
:*Doc' tries to undo the laces of his cement shoes...*


"Everyone knows" in the same way "everyone knows" the Teamsters
are tied
to the Mob, or the CIA operates inside U.S. borders, or the oil companies
are stopping cold fusion development...

Its not the sort of thing people want to believe, its handled through
levels of legitimate contact, and its easily deniable. Is it so hard to
believe that if the alderman gives 10 thugs $25 an hour jobs as garbage men,
with lifetime pension and health insurance, regardless of future performance
or crimes, they MIGHT "not be discouraged" from doing something fire bombing
the car outside my apartment that (coincidentally) belongs to somebody who
canvassed for his opposition? That's the nature of "clout"- it so permeates
the city, the folks who benefit don't even have to ASK people to commit
crimes for them, because they have folks under them who have folks under
them, and they all scratch each others backs.
Theres a school not two blocks from where I live named for a aldemanic
candidate, who was shot in his living room, the night of the election, in
front of his family. No arrest was ever made. This was in the '60s, but
how much do you think things have changed?

Mongoose
Message no. 15
From: cmpetro@*********.com cmpetro@*********.com
Subject: Seattle related questions
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 08:20:14 -0500
> > > Btw, if everyone knows your alderman is doing that, Mongoose, why
hasn't someone exposed him?
> >
> > No-one exposed him, because it's not surprising or shocking to the
locals. Mongoose lives in Chicago, which has an extremely rich history
of criminal activity.
> > Iridios

>Oh, come on, Iridios. That's the kind of thinking that perpetuates this
lovely criminal history. :)

>Seriously, though, while that may be SOP under the boards, I'm sure
that if it became official public knowledge SOMEONE would do something
about it, wouldn't they? And no, I'm not thinking of the Mob there. :)


Don't count on it... Unless someone has something very specific to gain.
Chicago politicians have a rich history of corruption... And it works for
the city... I mean look at who many people consider to be the best mayor
Chicago ever had -- Papa Daley (The current mayors father)-- They didn't
get any more crooked.

Further Reading

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