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Message no. 1
From: xanth@****.uky.edu (Terry Amburgey)
Subject: self image
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 15:37:43 -0500 (EST)
Damion wrote:
[snip]
>Hmmmm, that makes me wonder. What if my stylised self image is a 50 meter
>tall, 7 headed, firebreathing hydra on a 30 meter long skateboard... :-)

Heh heh. As opposed to your real life existence as a 35 meter tall 4 headed
Hydra...

>Otherwise I think you have quite a good point, most peoples stylised self
>images tend to include a pair of fully functional arms.

The section I was referencing covers the 'astral form' of a projecting
magician. Now you have me wondering. It seems like the astral form and the
aura are distinct [for example the section on assensing says that you can
determine the true form of an entity]. How can the 'astral form' and the
aura be distinct?

>> P.S. Welcome back from lurking.
>
>Thanks. It seems you've had quite a, err, warm ride while I've been gone.
>Not meaning to criticise (you did start quite a few good, if hot, threads),
>but I personally do think you went a bit overboard a few times. But,
>anyhow, continue!

Yeah, I do that sometimes. But, like my GM says, if you aren't living on the
edge you're taking up space. Terry

Terry L. Amburgey Office: 606-257-7726
Associate Professor Home: 606-224-0636
College of Business & Economics Fax: 606-257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506
Message no. 2
From: Nathan Walker <NTWALKER@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US>
Subject: Re: self image
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 16:20:41 -0500 (EST)
Klingon Name: Captain K'vort, Commander, DSF C7 "Victory"
MIME: We shoot them here.

From: xanth@****.uky.edu (Terry Amburgey)
>Damion wrote:
>[snip]
>>Hmmmm, that makes me wonder. What if my stylised self image is a 50 meter
>>tall, 7 headed, firebreathing hydra on a 30 meter long skateboard... :-)
>
>Heh heh. As opposed to your real life existence as a 35 meter tall 4 headed
>Hydra...
>
>>Otherwise I think you have quite a good point, most peoples stylised self
>>images tend to include a pair of fully functional arms.

Hmmm... I think, from what I have picked up from psychology, that your self
image is how you subconsciously see yourself, not how you would _like_ to
see yourself. So then your geek mage might like to see himself as that
fabio guy, but he really might see himself as a wussie geek. OTOH, he might
see himself as Fabio, I don't know.

Could someone learned in Psychology help me out here? I don't take the course
until next semester...

>>>>>>>>> Nate
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
| NTWalker@******.SUNYGENESEE.CC.NY.US |
| a.k.a. The Joker |
| |
| Where does he get those marvelous toys? |
| - Joker |
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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Message no. 3
From: "Damion Milliken" <adm82@***.edu.au>
Subject: Re: self image
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 00:25:46 +1100 (EST)
Terry Amburgey writes:

> Heh heh. As opposed to your real life existence as a 35 meter tall 4 headed
> Hydra...

What!!? How did you find out? Have you been spying on me? <Paranoid look
over shoulder> Now my secret's out! Damn you! Now you'll have to die!
(Actually this reminds me of the cartoon on the back of our student rag, it
had a picture of a little kid standing in a stairway looking down on Santa
as he distributed gifts around the Christmas tree, and had the caption
"You've seen me, Tommy. Now I'll have to kill you".)

> The section I was referencing covers the 'astral form' of a projecting
> magician. Now you have me wondering. It seems like the astral form and the
> aura are distinct [for example the section on assensing says that you can
> determine the true form of an entity]. How can the 'astral form' and the
> aura be distinct?

Well, I think that a persons aura is like their astral fingerprint, but
their idealized self image is like the clothes and makeup they wear. You
can change your clothes and alter your appearance all you like, but your
fingerprints aren't going to change.

Nathan Walker writes:

> Hmmm... I think, from what I have picked up from psychology, that your self
> image is how you subconsciously see yourself, not how you would _like_ to
> see yourself. So then your geek mage might like to see himself as that
> fabio guy, but he really might see himself as a wussie geek. OTOH, he might
> see himself as Fabio, I don't know.
>
> Could someone learned in Psychology help me out here? I don't take the course
> until next semester...

I don't think the subconscious self image is what they had in mind. I think
they intended more of a concious idealized self image. At least that's the
impression I get from the little text block associated with the "Astral
Projection" section, where the magician says "Over this side, you are what
you will, not what you think!".

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au
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Message no. 4
From: Sean Spriggs saarons@*****.ColoState.EDU
Subject: Self Image
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 14:01:42 -0700 (MST)
> Rat wrote:
> She was a budding Cat Shaman, right? And she had some deep psychological
> issues about her body, thinking she was ugly, IIRC. So that kinda answers
> your question, I guess. Elves and Humans can be beautiful, Dwarves can be
> cute, and Orks and Trolls are ugly, according to themselves and others>

That's an increadibly small sample size for such large generalizations to
be made. The way beauty is used in today's marketing scheems, I could
easily see the female elf form appitamized as the most beautiful image or
perhaps a computer generated image thus removing real models alltogether.

I saw a program about what is beauty a few years ago and the people
conducting the reaserch concluded it was symmatry (to water down an hour
of info into one sentance).
Message no. 5
From: Grim Shear grim_shear@*******.com
Subject: Self Image
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:15:53 CST
>I saw a program about what is beauty a few years ago and the people
>conducting the reaserch concluded it was symmatry (to water down an hour of
>info into one sentance).

I think I remember seeing that one. I think they had even worked out the
different shapes that are represented in different faces, and which ones are
seen as "beautiful".
Didn't they also say that certain features, when a little off kilter, were
even more attractive (I can't remember who was given as an example).

Grim Shear
"Dammit man, I thought I told you to throw the _Grenade_
not the pin." Spoken soon after telling a _really_ stupid
(and well roleplayed Troll), to pull the pin and throw it.

______________________________________________________
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Message no. 6
From: Bruce iti03678@****.co.za
Subject: Self Image
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:16:00 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: Sean Spriggs <saarons@*****.ColoState.EDU>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 17 November 1999 11:05
Subject: Self Image


>
>
>> Rat wrote:
>> She was a budding Cat Shaman, right? And she had some deep
psychological
>> issues about her body, thinking she was ugly, IIRC. So that kinda
answers
>> your question, I guess. Elves and Humans can be beautiful, Dwarves
can be
>> cute, and Orks and Trolls are ugly, according to themselves and
others>
>
>That's an increadibly small sample size for such large
generalizations to
>be made. The way beauty is used in today's marketing scheems, I
could
>easily see the female elf form appitamized as the most beautiful
image or
>perhaps a computer generated image thus removing real models
alltogether.
>
>I saw a program about what is beauty a few years ago and the people
>conducting the reaserch concluded it was symmatry (to water down an
hour
>of info into one sentance).

This is a very interseting point. I can personally see Troll and Ork
woman being attractive. The hurdles they face will be a rougher skin,
different, but not in a bad way bodily proportions and in the case of
Trolls, the skin deposits and tusks and horns. All these things
however vary from individual to individual and I'm sure Mother Nature
will produce some stunning examples of all races.

The size issue will be a factor in personal relationships, the
differences between Dwarves and Trolls being the most marked. I think
people will find a way to make it work though, love has always found a
way :)

- -
Bruce <phantasm@****.co.za>

Give me reasons why the sun has to shine
why they murdered the noisy mime
tell me the answers to the puzzles of Poe
and sing me to sleep on the rivers of woe
Message no. 7
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: Self Image
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 08:38:14 -0500
Once upon a time, Sean Spriggs wrote;

>That's an increadibly small sample size for such large generalizations to
>be made. The way beauty is used in today's marketing scheems, I could
>easily see the female elf form appitamized as the most beautiful image or
>perhaps a computer generated image thus removing real models alltogether.

No computer image can walk a runway.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 8
From: Bruce iti03678@****.co.za
Subject: Self Image
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:53:44 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.com>
To: ShadowRN <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 18 November 1999 03:40
Subject: Re: Self Image


>Once upon a time, Sean Spriggs wrote;
>
>>That's an increadibly small sample size for such large
generalizations to
>>be made. The way beauty is used in today's marketing scheems, I
could
>>easily see the female elf form appitamized as the most beautiful
image or
>>perhaps a computer generated image thus removing real models
alltogether.
>
> No computer image can walk a runway.
> I am MC23

But a computer generated hologram sure could. In fact, this would be
the perfect place to use such technology.

- -
Bruce <phantasm@****.co.za>

Give me reasons why the sun has to shine
why they murdered the noisy mime
tell me the answers to the puzzles of Poe
and sing me to sleep on the rivers of woe
Message no. 9
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: Self Image
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:54:00 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 08:38 AM 11/18/99 -0500, MC23 wrote:
::or perhaps a computer generated image thus removing real models
::alltogether.
:
: No computer image can walk a runway.

A computer image of a model can walk a computer image of a runway.
About a month or two ago, Macys.com had a promotion featuring an
"online virtual fashion show" done with 3d models of well, models.

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PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
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Message no. 10
From: Da Twink Daddy datwinkdaddy@*******.com
Subject: Self Image
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:57:23 -0600 (CST)
Today, MC23 spoke on Re: Self Image:

> Once upon a time, Sean Spriggs wrote;
>
> >That's an increadibly small sample size for such large generalizations to
> >be made. The way beauty is used in today's marketing scheems, I could
> >easily see the female elf form appitamized as the most beautiful image or
> >perhaps a computer generated image thus removing real models alltogether.
>
> No computer image can walk a runway.

Unless of course, it was a project hologram, or a robically controlled
lump of Ruthenium.

Da Twink Daddy
e-mail: bss03@*******.uark.edu
ICQ: 514984
Message no. 11
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: Self Image
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 17:10:27 -0500
> >> She was a budding Cat Shaman, right? And she had some deep
> psychological
> >> issues about her body, thinking she was ugly, IIRC. So that kinda
> answers
> >> your question, I guess. Elves and Humans can be beautiful,
Dwarves
> can be
> >> cute, and Orks and Trolls are ugly, according to themselves and
> others>
>
> This is a very interseting point. I can personally see Troll and Ork
> woman being attractive. The hurdles they face will be a rougher
skin,
> different, but not in a bad way bodily proportions and in the case
of
> Trolls, the skin deposits and tusks and horns. All these things
> however vary from individual to individual and I'm sure Mother
Nature
> will produce some stunning examples of all races.
>
> The size issue will be a factor in personal relationships, the
> differences between Dwarves and Trolls being the most marked. I
think
> people will find a way to make it work though, love has always found
a
> way :)

Completely off topic (I think), but I've always held the opinion that
an attribute like Charisma is an internal attribute (IOW, Mental), not
an external attribute (Physical). This being the case, it is entirely
possible to play an unbelievable attractive character with a Charisma
of 2 due to factors like low self-esteem, poor self-image, and so on.
Things like Tailored Pheromones work mostly because of the pheromones,
but do nothing for the mental part of being a 'people person.' In
fact, I'd argue that the pheromones work for Charisma only because the
person who has them *believes* that they are more charismatic because
of the bioware.

What I'd like to know is, elves get a Charisma boost because society
deems them as attractive, while orks and trolls receive a Charisma
penalty because society sees them as unattractive, which implies that
Charisma is a socially-influenced attribute, but what happens when you
have an ork raised in an all-ork community who's been raised to
believe that things like race and looks just don't matter? Or even a
blind ork who has no idea what he looks like?


AK404
http://freespeech.org/ak404
Message no. 12
From: lomion lomion@*********.or
Subject: Self Image
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:47:40 -0800
>Completely off topic (I think), but I've always held the opinion that
>an attribute like Charisma is an internal attribute (IOW, Mental), not
>an external attribute (Physical).

Charisma in SR always seemed to me more of a combo of force of personality,
physcial attractiveness and society influences.


> This being the case, it is entirely
>possible to play an unbelievable attractive character with a Charisma
>of 2 due to factors like low self-esteem, poor self-image, and so on.
>Things like Tailored Pheromones work mostly because of the pheromones,
>but do nothing for the mental part of being a 'people person.' In
>fact, I'd argue that the pheromones work for Charisma only because the
>person who has them *believes* that they are more charismatic because
>of the bioware.

I disagree here, pheromones are scientifically proven, think of why perfume
and cologne works as it does.

>What I'd like to know is, elves get a Charisma boost because society
>deems them as attractive, while orks and trolls receive a Charisma
>penalty because society sees them as unattractive, which implies that
>Charisma is a socially-influenced attribute, but what happens when you
>have an ork raised in an all-ork community who's been raised to
>believe that things like race and looks just don't matter? Or even a
>blind ork who has no idea what he looks like?

That wouldn't apply since the societal aspect comes down to how other ppl
view them, other people being society at large not a specifc community.
Message no. 13
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: Self Image
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 18:03:04 -0500
> >Completely off topic (I think), but I've always held the opinion
that
> >an attribute like Charisma is an internal attribute (IOW, Mental),
not
> >an external attribute (Physical).
>
> Charisma in SR always seemed to me more of a combo of force of
personality,
> physcial attractiveness and society influences.

Well, would the messages society sends you affect your self-esteem? I
mean, if society keeps on telling you that fat people are ugly and fat
people are this and that, and whatnot, wouldn't that affect your
opinion of overweight people (and conversely, people who are not
overweight) even if you kept on telling yourself it was all total
jetwash?

> I disagree here, pheromones are scientifically proven, think of why
perfume
> and cologne works as it does.

Pheromones, yes. But what if the bioware really didn't do jack? What
if your body sent out more pheremones because you believed you did?
Sure this is taking the placebo effect to an extreme, but oh well. As
for perfume and cologne, I don't know. I think it's just to cover up
the smell of sweat, but that's just me.

> >What I'd like to know is, elves get a Charisma boost because
society
> >deems them as attractive, while orks and trolls receive a Charisma
> >penalty because society sees them as unattractive, which implies
that
> >Charisma is a socially-influenced attribute, but what happens when
you
> >have an ork raised in an all-ork community who's been raised to
> >believe that things like race and looks just don't matter? Or even
a
> >blind ork who has no idea what he looks like?
>
> That wouldn't apply since the societal aspect comes down to how
other ppl
> view them, other people being society at large not a specifc
community.

True, but why would elves and humans be seen as better than orks and
trolls, especially in places like the Ork Underground or Ymoi?
Message no. 14
From: lomion lomion@*********.or
Subject: Self Image
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:32:27 -0800
>Well, would the messages society sends you affect your self-esteem? I
>mean, if society keeps on telling you that fat people are ugly and fat
>people are this and that, and whatnot, wouldn't that affect your
>opinion of overweight people (and conversely, people who are not
>overweight) even if you kept on telling yourself it was all total
>jetwash?

Personally i could care less about society's view of me. I doesn't affect
my personal outlook on who i am.

As for esteem, Hitler had terrible self-esteem really, thats part of why
he did what he did, but he was charismatic as hell. I mean he mobilized a
nation to attempt genocide on other races. Many celebrities have esteem
problems that is why they do what they do for the validation but they can
be very charismatic. Charisma is not self esteem, I think self-esteem
would be more tied to willpower as strength of character.


> > I disagree here, pheromones are scientifically proven, think of why
>perfume
> > and cologne works as it does.
>
>Pheromones, yes. But what if the bioware really didn't do jack? What
>if your body sent out more pheremones because you believed you did?
>Sure this is taking the placebo effect to an extreme, but oh well. As
>for perfume and cologne, I don't know. I think it's just to cover up
>the smell of sweat, but that's just me.

I think your stretching a little here.


>True, but why would elves and humans be seen as better than orks and
>trolls, especially in places like the Ork Underground or Ymoi?

I don't think self-esteem and charisma are tied together, what would happen
is that they would not have the smae preconceptions and might be different
in how they react at first.

--lomion
Message no. 15
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Self Image
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:54:12 -0800 (PST)
<Snippola(TM)>
> > This being the case, it is entirely possible to
play an unbelievable attractive character with a
Charisma of 2 due to factors like low self-esteem,
poor self-image, and so on.
<Snippage(TM)>

Oh, quite. I once played an incredibly beautiful (Good
Looking and Knows It edge) woman with a charisma of 1.
Why? Because she was an absolute BITCH.

*Doc' thinks a Melrose Place/Shadowrun crossover could
be interesting. Of course, the body count (and plastic
surgery bills) would be horrendous.*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 16
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Self Image
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 19:56:42 EST
In a message dated 11/18/1999 12:18:22 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
datwinkdaddy@*******.com writes:

>
> > No computer image can walk a runway.

Somehow I think everybody missed MC23's point here. I do believe I can
understand what he means. It may have the look, the walk, the clothing,
etc...but not the *FEEL* of a real supermodel.

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 17
From: Grim Shear grim_shear@*******.com
Subject: Self Image
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:35:21 CST
>Completely off topic (I think), but I've always held the opinion that
>an attribute like Charisma is an internal attribute (IOW, Mental), not an
>external attribute (Physical). This being the case, it is entirely
>possible to play an unbelievable attractive character with a >Charisma of 2
>due to factors like low self-esteem, poor self-image, and so on. Things
>like Tailored Pheromones work mostly because of the >pheromones, but do
>nothing for the mental part of being a 'people person.' In fact, I'd argue
>that the pheromones work for Charisma only because the person who has them
>*believes* that they are more charismatic because of the bioware.
>What I'd like to know is, elves get a Charisma boost because society
>deems them as attractive, while orks and trolls receive a Charisma
>penalty because society sees them as unattractive, which implies that
>Charisma is a socially-influenced attribute, but what happens when you have
>an ork raised in an all-ork community who's been raised to
>believe that things like race and looks just don't matter? Or even a
>blind ork who has no idea what he looks like?
>AK404

Charisma is (IMHO) a combination of societal factors and what the person
think of themself (which is actually influenced by society).
(In SR)Society is dominated by Homo Sapiens Sapiens. Therefore, Sapiens
Sapiens ideas of looks are those that dominate. Elves get a Charisma bonus
because they exemplify Sapiens Sapiens views of women (fine boned, delicate
looking, more effeminate body proportions (longer looking legs for one), and
with finer hair). Orks and Trolls on the other hand look like "goblins"
which have always been referred to as "ugly" and "bad" in different
stories,
so this view carries over into Sapiens Sapiens views of those (sub?)species.
On the other hand, the better a person thinks/feels about themself, they
carry themselves better (head higher, whatever) and basically through sheer
force of will make people like them. (Does anyone know someone who just
"feels" like a "nice guy").
As for the pheromones, its a matter of genetic programming. Certain
chemical structures activate certain responses in the brain, which then
causes the body to respond. If the person has tailored pheromones, they
don't have to think/feel good about themself, people just react (hopefully
positively) to them, because of a few hundered million years of genetic
programming.

Grim Shear
"Yes you can have some Jello, and no I dond't have any!"
Said to the teams petulant (lesbian elf) Cat Shaman, right after she bombed
the run.

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Message no. 18
From: Grim Shear grim_shear@*******.com
Subject: Self Image
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:46:38 CST
>Oh, quite. I once played an incredibly beautiful (Good Looking and Knows It
>edge) woman with a charisma of 1.
>Why? Because she was an absolute BITCH.
>Doc'

Hell, my rigger is about as subtle as a meat hook and acts cold,
foreboding, and tactless. The guy shows almost no emotion, and is roughly
described as a bastard.
But he can get people to do what he wants because he has a forceful
personality (Charisma 4).
BTW we had a lesbian, Elf, Street Sammi who had max Charisma. No skills in
anything remotely charismatic, but she could make almost anyone do anything.

Grim Shear
"When there's a sock on the door nob, don't disturb me"
Said by the above mentioned Lesbian Elf Street Sammi.

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Message no. 19
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Self Image
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 19:24:41 -0600
: As for esteem, Hitler had terrible self-esteem really, thats part of why
:he did what he did, but he was charismatic as hell. I mean he mobilized a
:nation to attempt genocide on other races. Many celebrities have esteem
:problems that is why they do what they do for the validation but they can
:be very charismatic. Charisma is not self esteem, I think self-esteem
:would be more tied to willpower as strength of character.

A good point. Charisma in Shadowrun seems to reflect how "manipulative"
a character is. That may not be the best word, due to its connotations, but
it seems to fit, especially if you look at who has really high charisma
(dragons, powerful spirits, and elves).
It is entirley possible that trolls and orcs are inherently, genetically
unskilled at social manipulations, just as some folks are unskilled at
spatial perception. This does not depend on societal factors at all,
although it may result in orcs and trolls having slightly different social
values or behavior.
Afaik, Pheromones are chemicals that directly provoke (or facilitate)
certain reactions- the most obvious ones to enhance in this case would be
those that call for "submisive" response (if they exist- this being
fiction, we can say they do). This would have nothing to do with social
perception of attractiveness, although "dominance" is generally (though not
universally) a sexually and socially attractive trait.

:>True, but why would elves and humans be seen as better than orks and
:>trolls, especially in places like the Ork Underground or Ymoi?

It need not have anything to do with who is "seen as better"- it depends
on who has the behavior patterns that inherently manipulate others
effectively. Just as a troll has to work harder at being good at technical
skills (low intellegence) he has to work harder at having good social skills
(low charisma), because his brain just isn't naturally wired up quite as
well for that kind of work.
Of course, this completley contrdicts claims made in the book about
thier infectionless speach, etc- but I never bought that anyhow. That is a
social perception factor, which makes no sense when, for example,
determining how much damage you can do in astral combat...

Mongoose
Message no. 20
From: Bruce iti03678@****.co.za
Subject: Self Image
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:21:28 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: Ereskanti@***.com <Ereskanti@***.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 19 November 1999 06:23
Subject: Re: Self Image


>In a message dated 11/18/1999 12:18:22 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
>datwinkdaddy@*******.com writes:
>
>>
>> > No computer image can walk a runway.
>
>Somehow I think everybody missed MC23's point here. I do believe I
can
>understand what he means. It may have the look, the walk, the
clothing,
>etc...but not the *FEEL* of a real supermodel.
>
>-K

And how often do you get to *FEEL* a supermodel? :)

- -
Bruce <phantasm@****.co.za>

Give me reasons why the sun has to shine
why they murdered the noisy mime
tell me the answers to the puzzles of Poe
and sing me to sleep on the rivers of woe
Message no. 21
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: Self Image
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:51:16 -0500
Once upon a time, Bruce wrote;

>But a computer generated hologram sure could. In fact, this would be
>the perfect place to use such technology.

Display windows maybe, Billboards yes, runways no.


Once upon a time, Paul Gettle wrote;

>A computer image of a model can walk a computer image of a runway.
>About a month or two ago, Macys.com had a promotion featuring an
>"online virtual fashion show" done with 3d models of well, models.

Hardly Haute Couture, more of a novelty. The idea of a fashion show
is what you can do with clothing, hair & makeup on people (well models).
Also clothing is item that needs to be personally seen. I would say
that the people on this list is a rather techno-savvy bunch, who here has
bought clothes on line (at least those of you who consider yourself well
dressed)? It's not the best medium for it and is one of the fields making
the least progress into e-commerce because of it.

Once upon a time, Ereskanti@***.com wrote;

>Somehow I think everybody missed MC23's point here. I do believe I can
>understand what he means. It may have the look, the walk, the clothing,
>etc...but not the *FEEL* of a real supermodel.

That's the point. There is a reason why models are referred to as
talent in the biz. And not all models can walk (find small local shows if
you don't believe me). Maybe it's something one is trained to see but at
the big shows that would be everyone there.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are,
not as they ought to be."
-The Devil's Dictionary, Ambrose Bierce

I am MC23
Message no. 22
From: Comatose demonic_cultist@*****.com
Subject: Self Image
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 07:15:05 -0800 (PST)
--<Snippola(TM)>
-> > This being the case, it is entirely possible to
-play an unbelievable attractive character with a
-Charisma of 2 due to factors like low self-esteem,
-poor self-image, and so on.
-<Snippage(TM)>

>Looking and Knows It edge) woman with a charisma of
1.
>Why? Because she was an absolute BITCH.

Don't forget that attractive, yet hopelessly naive
fellow that thinks he's swingin' and hip, but always
says the wrong things, all the time.
He may look fine, but just doesn't have the social
awareness to notice his bunny-hop ain't cuttin' it in
the mosh pit.






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Message no. 23
From: Paul Gettle RunnerPaul@*****.com
Subject: Self Image
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 10:51:57 -0500
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 07:56 PM 11/18/99 -0500, Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
:Somehow I think everybody missed MC23's point here. I do believe I
:can understand what he means. It may have the look, the walk, the
:clothing, etc...but not the *FEEL* of a real supermodel.

With the number of jokes floating around these days about supermodels
not being real people, I honestly don't see an Idoru-style entirely
artificial, computer generated supermodel being much different than
the real thing.

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 24
From: dbuehrer@****.org dbuehrer@****.org
Subject: Self Image
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 10:33:08 -0700
Paul Gettle wrote:
\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
\
\ At 07:56 PM 11/18/99 -0500, Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
\ :Somehow I think everybody missed MC23's point here. I do believe I
\ :can understand what he means. It may have the look, the walk, the
\ :clothing, etc...but not the *FEEL* of a real supermodel.
\
\ With the number of jokes floating around these days about supermodels
\ not being real people, I honestly don't see an Idoru-style entirely
\ artificial, computer generated supermodel being much different than
\ the real thing.

Ditto that.

There are very few models that come across as real people. I don't see
that changing anytime soon. Otherwise the model's image supercedes the
clothing that she's wearing, which is generally *not* what clothing
designers want (unless they know their line is crap and they *need* someone
who can make it look good ;).

IMHO it would come down to cost effectiveness. Which would be cheaper,
paying teenage women to wear your cloths, or paying for a software package
that emulates clothing physics, and the hardware to run and display the
program, and the graphic artists to transfer your designs, and the techs to
keep it all working?

I think real runway models will be alive and well in SR20xx.

-Graht
--
"The light is reached not by turning back from the darkness,
but by going through it."
Message no. 25
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Self Image
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:32:57 EST
In a message dated 11/19/1999 4:25:12 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
iti03678@****.co.za writes:

>
> And how often do you get to *FEEL* a supermodel? :)

At all THREE of the floor shows I have ever attended with such
present...thankyouverymuch!!! ;-P

-K (who just *knows* you're jealous now.. ;-)
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 26
From: Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject: Self Image
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:45:24 -0200
On Thu, 18 Nov 1999 08:38:14 -0500
MC23 <mc23@**********.com> wrote:

> Once upon a time, Sean Spriggs wrote;
>
> >That's an increadibly small sample size for such large generalizations to
> >be made. The way beauty is used in today's marketing scheems, I could
> >easily see the female elf form appitamized as the most beautiful image or
> >perhaps a computer generated image thus removing real models alltogether.
>
> No computer image can walk a runway.

In the Matrix, it can :) . But I don't think real models will
vanish, because many people will still prefer "the real thing", and
corps can't ignore a significant share of the market :) .

Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
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Message no. 27
From: Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject: Self Image
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:45:29 -0200
On Thu, 18 Nov 1999 17:10:27 -0500
"Angelkiller 404" <angelkiller404@**********.com> wrote:

>
> What I'd like to know is, elves get a Charisma boost because society
> deems them as attractive, while orks and trolls receive a Charisma
> penalty because society sees them as unattractive, which implies that
> Charisma is a socially-influenced attribute, but what happens when you
> have an ork raised in an all-ork community who's been raised to
> believe that things like race and looks just don't matter? Or even a
> blind ork who has no idea what he looks like?

Your first cade would be an Orc with a high Charisma... The
second one might be at any level, depending on how he behaves himself
:), or what he thinks of himself.


Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455
Message no. 28
From: Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject: Self Image
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:45:32 -0200
On Fri, 19 Nov 1999 07:15:05 -0800 (PST)
Comatose <demonic_cultist@*****.com> wrote:

> >Why? Because she was an absolute BITCH.
>
> Don't forget that attractive, yet hopelessly naive
> fellow that thinks he's swingin' and hip, but always
> says the wrong things, all the time.
> He may look fine, but just doesn't have the social
> awareness to notice his bunny-hop ain't cuttin' it in
> the mosh pit.
>

I like the definition that "Legend of the Five Rings" gives to
charisma... It's the perception of things you can't notice with normal
intelligence, to notice the most subtle things in people follow these
leads (unconsciously), making them have a good impression about you :) .

>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>

Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455
Message no. 29
From: Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject: Self Image
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:45:30 -0200
On Thu, 18 Nov 1999 19:24:41 -0600
"Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*********.com> wrote:

>
> It is entirley possible that trolls and orcs are inherently, genetically
> unskilled at social manipulations, just as some folks are unskilled at
> spatial perception. This does not depend on societal factors at all,
> although it may result in orcs and trolls having slightly different social
> values or behavior.

That's relative... If orcs were the "dominant race", humans
would be the low charisma types :) .

>
Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455
Message no. 30
From: Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject: Self Image
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:45:34 -0200
On Fri, 19 Nov 1999 10:51:57 -0500
Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.com> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> At 07:56 PM 11/18/99 -0500, Ereskanti@***.com wrote:
> :Somehow I think everybody missed MC23's point here. I do believe I
> :can understand what he means. It may have the look, the walk, the
> :clothing, etc...but not the *FEEL* of a real supermodel.
>
> With the number of jokes floating around these days about supermodels
> not being real people, I honestly don't see an Idoru-style entirely
> artificial, computer generated supermodel being much different than
> the real thing.

And Rei-san was much more "real" than other female characters in
the book :) .

Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455
Message no. 31
From: Ahrain Drigar ahrain_drigar@*******.com
Subject: Self Image
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 15:12:08 EST
>From: Ereskanti@***.com
>Subject: Re: Self Image
>Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:32:57 EST
>
>In a message dated 11/19/1999 4:25:12 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>iti03678@****.co.za writes:
>
> >
> > And how often do you get to *FEEL* a supermodel? :)
>
>At all THREE of the floor shows I have ever attended with such
>present...thankyouverymuch!!! ;-P
>
>-K (who just *knows* you're jealous now.. ;-)
>[Hoosier Hacker House]
>[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
>ICQ#-51511837
>


Ah...Hey K, when are you going to another show, and do you have room in a
suitcxase for a passenger.....<grin, as he ducks from his wife>.

Ahrain

______________________________________________________
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Message no. 32
From: lomion lomion@*********.or
Subject: Self Image
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:20:03 -0800
At 05:45 PM 11/19/99 -0200, you wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Nov 1999 08:38:14 -0500
>MC23 <mc23@**********.com> wrote:
>
> > Once upon a time, Sean Spriggs wrote;
> >
> > >That's an increadibly small sample size for such large generalizations to
> > >be made. The way beauty is used in today's marketing scheems, I could
> > >easily see the female elf form appitamized as the most beautiful image or
> > >perhaps a computer generated image thus removing real models alltogether.
> >
> > No computer image can walk a runway.
>
> In the Matrix, it can :) . But I don't think real models will
>vanish, because many people will still prefer "the real thing", and
>corps can't ignore a significant share of the market :) .

What about the model status thing for bigwigs? You cannot goto dinner
unless the model is a real person.

--lomion


>Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
>http://members.xoom.com/slbr
>http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
>ICQ# 4055455
Message no. 33
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Self Image
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:23:52 -0600
:> It is entirley possible that trolls and orcs are inherently,
genetically
:> unskilled at social manipulations, just as some folks are unskilled at
:> spatial perception. This does not depend on societal factors at all,
:> although it may result in orcs and trolls having slightly different
social
:> values or behavior.
:
: That's relative... If orcs were the "dominant race", humans
:would be the low charisma types :) .

I don't think so. Elves are NOT the dominant race, but (even in Japan)
they get a Charisma bonus (though maybe test TN mods for racism). There's
some inherent part of thier mind, IMO, that lets them easily judge how to
influence the bahavior of others, how to act so as to get what they want,
etc. This is not the same as having social skills, but it makes learning
those skills easier, and using those skills more effective (all else being
equal, which, given racsim in some places, it won't be).
If orcs were the "dominant race", racism against humans might be common,
but just as with elves in Japan, thier charisma would still be higher than
orcs'.

Mongoose
Message no. 34
From: lomion lomion@*********.or
Subject: Self Image
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:05:40 -0800
At 05:23 PM 11/19/99 -0600, you wrote:
>:> It is entirley possible that trolls and orcs are inherently,
>genetically
>:> unskilled at social manipulations, just as some folks are unskilled at
>:> spatial perception. This does not depend on societal factors at all,
>:> although it may result in orcs and trolls having slightly different
>social
>:> values or behavior.
>:
>: That's relative... If orcs were the "dominant race", humans
>:would be the low charisma types :) .
>
> I don't think so. Elves are NOT the dominant race, but (even in Japan)
>they get a Charisma bonus (though maybe test TN mods for racism).


I agree here, racism is a factor of dominate race not charisma. Elves are
supposed to be physically beautifal, let's face it appearance can be a
factor to intimidate/impress but real charisma goes beyond looks (Hitler
was an ugly SOB, and I think Britney Spears is a boob-jobbed dog but ppl
seem to love her)

Charisma gets into the "touchy feely" things really and is one of those
attributes that is hard to quantify fully. It's not like strength were you
can press X lbs or Quickness where you can run the 100m dash in x seconds.

As for why elves get a bonus in most literature beyond shadowrun they are
described sometimes as terrible to behold in their anger, i think it may
come down to perhaps they are very intense on a level that affects others
easily.

>There's
>some inherent part of thier mind, IMO, that lets them easily judge how to
>influence the bahavior of others, how to act so as to get what they want,
>etc. This is not the same as having social skills, but it makes learning
>those skills easier, and using those skills more effective (all else being
>equal, which, given racsim in some places, it won't be).

This is an interesting thought, a genetic predisposition to social behavior
on a level higher than other? Elves strike me as being very social within
their own circles, pulling from memory of the TT book, social standing
is very important to them, if they are social creatures moreso than most
other metatypes that could explain it partially. Again though I think
charisma is very hard to pin down as a stat.

--lomion
Message no. 35
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Self Image
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 00:33:21 EST
In a message dated 11/19/1999 6:20:00 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
m0ng005e@*********.com writes:

> I don't think so. Elves are NOT the dominant race, but (even in Japan)
> they get a Charisma bonus (though maybe test TN mods for racism). There's
> some inherent part of thier mind, IMO, that lets them easily judge how to
> influence the bahavior of others, how to act so as to get what they want,
> etc. This is not the same as having social skills, but it makes learning
> those skills easier, and using those skills more effective (all else being
> equal, which, given racsim in some places, it won't be).
> If orcs were the "dominant race", racism against humans might be
common,
> but just as with elves in Japan, thier charisma would still be higher than
> orcs'.

Oh come on, the *REAL* (come on, check that term out ;-) reason the charisma
bonuses apply is because the original game writers/designers decided to make
it that way and then later used it as a basis for explaining so many other
factors about "Elves" that we have since learned to see in Shadowrun.
Charisma (self-image, personality, etc...) is just one factor of the
(meta)human being. And the writers wanted *somethone* to have an advantage
with the attribute. It's proven itself to be almost the most unilaterally
most misunderstood or incompletely defined of all the SR attributes as it is.
The examples that are being given are doing nothing more than furthering
that proof IMO.

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 36
From: dghost@****.com dghost@****.com
Subject: Self Image
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 00:00:14 -0800
On Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:51:16 -0500 MC23 <mc23@**********.com> writes:
> Once upon a time, Bruce wrote;
>
> >But a computer generated hologram sure could. In fact, this would be
> >the perfect place to use such technology.

> Display windows maybe, Billboards yes, runways no.

I think this (holographic/CG models) would be predominant in low- to
middle-end fashion. High-end fashion would mostly still use models, but I
wouldn't be surprised to see this used to show case the occasional
designer creations, particularly for retro- and technical-themed designs
(one for contrast, the other for the parallel.). I would also think that
Holographic/CG models would be "the rage" when first introduced and
fizzle out of fashion as the tech trickles down to the lower end of the
fashion comunity.

The biggest reason I can think for designers to use Holographic/CG
fashion shows is the lack of restraint of normal show and models.
Designers would be able to eliminate the runway and have the models
fly/float or walk on bizare runways. Models could be human or "artistic"
(ie, maybe the designer wants the plainest of mannequins modeling his
designs or even simply a wire frame of a person). Designers could perform
all manner of nifty effects to showcase the clothes: super-sized models
(imagine a show where all the models are 40 feet tall!), Pan/Zoom (ie,
the "model" walks to the end of the runway, strikes a pose as the image
zooms to his/her feet and pans upwards), duplicate (ie, cloned views of
the "model"), also nifty special effects (Matrix, Lost in Space, Gap
commercials), and casting each outfit (or group of outfits) against
seperate backdrops (ie, winter outfits could be displayed against an
arctic background with polar bears and penguins which melts to warm sunny
beach for the summer line).

"And this design by Georgio sets Sharon Apple's electrons atingle. With
its sharp cut and sleek lines, this two peice suit says 'look out, boys,
I'll crash your OS.'"

:)

--
D. Ghost
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
-Groucho Marx

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Message no. 37
From: Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject: Self Image
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:35:00 -0200
On Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:23:52 -0600
"Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*********.com> wrote:

> : That's relative... If orcs were the "dominant race", humans
> :would be the low charisma types :) .
>
> I don't think so. Elves are NOT the dominant race, but (even in Japan)
> they get a Charisma bonus (though maybe test TN mods for racism). There's
> some inherent part of thier mind, IMO, that lets them easily judge how to
> influence the bahavior of others, how to act so as to get what they want,
> etc. This is not the same as having social skills, but it makes learning
> those skills easier, and using those skills more effective (all else being
> equal, which, given racsim in some places, it won't be).
> If orcs were the "dominant race", racism against humans might be
common,
> but just as with elves in Japan, thier charisma would still be higher than
> orcs'.
>
> Mongoose
>

As it is in SR, all races have the same culture, that of humans.
If Orcs had been there since the beginning, and humans had "goblinized"
>from them instead, we'd be taking orcs as a standard, so Charisma
penalties would perhaps be different. But I don't think Charisma is
cultural, it will have other origins. But play your game as you wish :)
.

Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455
Message no. 38
From: Bira ubiratan@**.homeshopping.com.br
Subject: Self Image
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:34:47 -0200
On Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:20:03 -0800
lomion <lomion@*********.or> wrote:

> What about the model status thing for bigwigs? You cannot goto dinner
> unless the model is a real person.
>
> --lomion

Well, if the virtual model is inteligent enough, you can always
use a holographic projector and let her handle the conversation. Though
this tactic is more aproppriate to Idol Singers (such as Sharon Apple or
Rei Toei) than simple "computer models". Also, as someone pointed out,
real models are less expensive, so they won't dissapear completely.

Bira - SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
ICQ# 4055455

Further Reading

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