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Message no. 1
From: Terry Amburgey <xanth@****.UKY.EDU>
Subject: semi-armor piercing shell
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 11:04:10 -0400
My SRII describes the assault cannon shell as 'semi armor piercing'. I don't
want to initiate a supercalifragilistic ammo thread, but I am interested in
the game mechanics of 'semi armor piercing' shells. Is there a by-the-book
game mechanic that I've missed? If not, what sort of house rule would work?
Terry
Terry L. Amburgey Office: 606-257-7726
Associate Professor Home: 606-224-0636
College of Business & Economics Fax: 606-257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506
Message no. 2
From: Ioannis Pantelidis <jpante@******.COMPULINK.GR>
Subject: Re: semi-armor piercing shell
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 18:16:53 +0300
sorry but the 18D power code is not enough you need also to have the rule
of apds?
Message no. 3
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: semi-armor piercing shell
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 11:45:16 -0400
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Semi-armor piercing is a military-esque term for a round that has some
means of defeating armor (ie, shaped charge, hard round/jacket material)
but is really only effective against lighter grades of armor (ie, it
won't scratch an MBT). 5.56mm NATO Ball ammunition is also listed as
"semi-armor piercing" or "light armor piercing".

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--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/ \ head.
Message no. 4
From: Charles McKenzie <kilroy@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: semi-armor piercing shell
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:12:06 -0500
On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Terry Amburgey wrote:

> My SRII describes the assault cannon shell as 'semi armor piercing'. I don't
> want to initiate a supercalifragilistic ammo thread, but I am interested in
> the game mechanics of 'semi armor piercing' shells. Is there a by-the-book
> game mechanic that I've missed? If not, what sort of house rule would work?


It means that you can come ----->this close<-----to killing an armored
vehicle...
Kilroy

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http://yar.cs.wisc.edu:80/~kilroy/
Message no. 5
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: semi-armor piercing shell
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:18:00 PDT
>My SRII describes the assault cannon shell as 'semi armor piercing'. I
don't
>want to initiate a supercalifragilistic ammo thread, but I am interested in
>the game mechanics of 'semi armor piercing' shells. Is there a by-the-book
>game mechanic that I've missed? If not, what sort of house rule would work?

me srll says that is an explosive warhead. or something like that. and
that you cannot have armor piecing or ex -explosive cannon rounds.

Rick St Jean

<<<<<stjeanr@*******.canadore.ca>>>>>
Message no. 6
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: semi-armor piercing shell
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:03:14 +0200
> My SRII describes the assault cannon shell as 'semi armor piercing'. I don't
> want to initiate a supercalifragilistic ammo thread, but I am interested in
> the game mechanics of 'semi armor piercing' shells. Is there a by-the-book
> game mechanic that I've missed? If not, what sort of house rule would work?

They probably mean the power of the attack (18) witch makes the HAC capable
of punching through hardened armor even though its not armor-piercing.
We're taling brute force chummer.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: semi-armor piercing shell
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:10:47 +0200
>My SRII describes the assault cannon shell as 'semi armor piercing'. I don't
>want to initiate a supercalifragilistic ammo thread, but I am interested in
>the game mechanics of 'semi armor piercing' shells. Is there a by-the-book
>game mechanic that I've missed?

No rules in the book AFAIK.

>If not, what sort of house rule would work?

We have you now! :)

Sorry, couldn't resist :) I'd say make armor x .75 for this semi-AP round
(full AP = x .5)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We're definitely not normal --Hillary, in the movie "Fun"
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Message no. 8
From: Mark Steedman <RSMS@******.EEE.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: semi-armor piercing shell
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:25:34 GMT
Terry Amburgey writes

> My SRII describes the assault cannon shell as 'semi armor piercing'. I don't
> want to initiate a supercalifragilistic ammo thread, but I am interested in
> the game mechanics of 'semi armor piercing' shells. Is there a by-the-book
> game mechanic that I've missed? If not, what sort of house rule would work?

FASA get the wires more than a bit crossed over APDS, particularly
converting 1sted sourcebooks (eg SSC) to 2nded, but they seems to
have three ammo types in this particular diection.

ordinary - easy
semi armour piercing - no armour reduction but a few weapons are
'semi armour piercing' in that they do not suffer a power level stage
down against veihcular targets, they are therefore more effective
than regular ammunition. I'm not sure about cannons off hand but the
anti vehicle missiles and rockets certainly have this sort of armour
piercing which i think is simply rated as normal attack against
living targets [ignoring dragons and the like (which have critter
hardened armour) where what sort of target you class it as caused an
arguement here before]

full APDS - half armour

> Terry

This of course may not be wonderfully equivalent to reality but then
wether a cannon class weapon is APDS or not don't worry folks in
armour jackets, 11's and 14's are both hard to come by in quantity.

Mark
Message no. 9
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: semi-armor piercing shell
Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 17:44:55 GMT
> My SRII describes the assault cannon shell as 'semi armor piercing'. I don't
> want to initiate a supercalifragilistic ammo thread, but I am interested in
> the game mechanics of 'semi armor piercing' shells. Is there a by-the-book
> game mechanic that I've missed? If not, what sort of house rule would work?
> Terry
> Terry L. Amburgey Office: 606-257-7726

In military parlance, semi-armour-piercing is intermediate between AP/APDS
shot and HE shells: it carries less explosive, has thicker shell walls, and
a base fuse rather than a nose fuse. Thus, instead of either exploding
on the surface or drilling a small hole, it penetrates the target and
detonates.

For SR terms, this means it doesn't have an "armour piercing" rule effect,
but it does have a very high Power. It doesn't have any real burst effect,
but it does mondo damage to whatever it hits. In short, it's a fudge, but (for
once) a sensible one.

I suppose you could develop HE and APDS loads if you were being realistic,
but whether it fits your game or not is another matter :)

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: semi-armor piercing shell
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 1995 10:55:39 +0200
>I suppose you could develop HE and APDS loads if you were being realistic,

Already done, the book is just not finished yet :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
We're definitely not normal --Hillary, in the movie "Fun"
-> Unofficial Shadowrun Guru & NERPS Project Leader <-
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Message no. 11
From: Sebastian Vilstrup <vilstrup@*****.IHI.KU.DK>
Subject: semi-armor piercing shell
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 15:47:31 +0100
>My SRII describes the assault cannon shell as 'semi armor piercing'. I don't
>want to initiate a supercalifragilistic ammo thread, but I am interested in
>the game mechanics of 'semi armor piercing' shells. Is there a by-the-book
>game mechanic that I've missed? If not, what sort of house rule would work?
>Terry

For years my group played the Assault Cannon shell as a normal armour
piercing bullet, i.e. armour is at 50% normal value.

Then we found the exact same paragraph as Terry and changed our rules to
half armour piercing, i.e. armour is at 75% normal value.

We felt that is was okay to limit the AC a bit. Now, the anti-vehicle is
actually better in some situations.

We tried to find a book rule about it, but as we found one we used the above.

Happy Hunting
Madman
Message no. 12
From: Sebastian Vilstrup <vilstrup@*****.IHI.KU.DK>
Subject: Re: semi-armor piercing shell
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 16:03:39 +0100
>>My SRII describes the assault cannon shell as 'semi armor piercing'.

>me srll says that is an explosive warhead. or something like that. and
>that you cannot have armor piecing or ex -explosive cannon rounds.
>
>Rick St Jean

If I recall with accuracy, the Assault Cannon fires HEAP rounds (High
Explosive, Armour Piercing). The high damage code is due to the explosive
effect, the semi-armour piercing (My idea: reduce armour by 25%
instead of 50%) ability is just a bonus.

Madman
Message no. 13
From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: semi-armor piercing shell
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:18:00 PDT
>>My SRII describes the assault cannon shell as 'semi armor piercing'. I
don't
>>want to initiate a supercalifragilistic ammo thread, but I am interested
in
>>the game mechanics of 'semi armor piercing' shells. Is there a by-the-book
>>game mechanic that I've missed? If not, what sort of house rule would
work?
>>Terry

>For years my group played the Assault Cannon shell as a normal armour
>piercing bullet, i.e. armour is at 50% normal value.

>Then we found the exact same paragraph as Terry and changed our rules to
>half armour piercing, i.e. armour is at 75% normal value.

>We felt that is was okay to limit the AC a bit. Now, the anti-vehicle is
>actually better in some situations.

>We tried to find a book rule about it, but as we found one we used the
above.

>Happy Hunting
>Madman

I'm sorry but does anyone else find this weapon suitably powerful. This is
18D we are talking about isn't it. This is a painful blast, unless all of
you characters have heavy military armour. And even then 12 skill will
still do an ouchy.

Does anyone else find the scale of armor and weapons is no longer suble. My
pcs all want heavy military armor and vehicle lasers mounted on the
shoulder. Because of all of the technology, NPC's need barret sniper rifles
amd 12 layers of clothing.

What happened to a narcojet pistol or silenced predator with gel rounds, and
sporting only an armored jacket?

thoughts


Ricky
"All seeing, all knowing, ALWAYS annoying"
<<<<<stjeanr@*******.CANADORE.ON.CA>>>>>
Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: semi-armor piercing shell
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 11:50:37 +0100
> From: "St. Jean, Ricky" <stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>

> What happened to a narcojet pistol or silenced predator with gel rounds, and
> sporting only an armored jacket?

They went out of style when the campaign got out of hand...

If your players really want military armor, I say let them roll for it.
Fail to roll 24? Oh, too bad... it isn't there... Try again in a month :)
In any half-way normal campaign I doubt you'd ever have a use for military
armor -- you can NOT wear it in the street, so how would you get it to
where you want to use it and still be able to put it on before you need
it? And all without raising eyebrows, without word getting out on the
street that you have this armor at home, and so on and so on.

IMHO it's more hassle than it's worth for any normal shadowrunner...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
De cursus "Omgaan met teleurstellingen" gaat wederom niet door.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

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Message no. 15
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: semi-armor piercing shell
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 20:38:48 +0930
Gurth wrote:
>
> > From: "St. Jean, Ricky"
<stjeanr@*******.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
>
> > What happened to a narcojet pistol or silenced predator with gel rounds, and
> > sporting only an armored jacket?
>
> They went out of style when the campaign got out of hand...
>
> If your players really want military armor, I say let them roll for it.
> Fail to roll 24? Oh, too bad... it isn't there... Try again in a month :)
> In any half-way normal campaign I doubt you'd ever have a use for military
> armor -- you can NOT wear it in the street, so how would you get it to
> where you want to use it and still be able to put it on before you need
> it? And all without raising eyebrows, without word getting out on the
> street that you have this armor at home, and so on and so on.

You buy it in crates, and store it that way. You gear up near the site, and
move in fast. And, if you're really lucky, it doesn't get damaged (ie, you
didn't need it), so you don't have to go through the hassles of getting
another set for the next time you DO need it.

But then, about the only time I let my players near the big bang-bang is
when they're being contracted by a corp as a fast, expendable reaction
team.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 16
From: Scott Taylor Spencer <sts100z@********.CC.ODU.EDU>
Subject: Re: semi-armor piercing shell
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 16:15:48 -0400
On Mon, 25 Sep 1995, St. Jean, Ricky wrote:
[Large Snip]
>
> I'm sorry but does anyone else find this weapon suitably powerful. This is
> 18D we are talking about isn't it. This is a painful blast, unless all of
> you characters have heavy military armour. And even then 12 skill will
> still do an ouchy.
>
> Does anyone else find the scale of armor and weapons is no longer suble. My
> pcs all want heavy military armor and vehicle lasers mounted on the
> shoulder. Because of all of the technology, NPC's need barret sniper rifles
> amd 12 layers of clothing.
>
> What happened to a narcojet pistol or silenced predator with gel rounds, and
> sporting only an armored jacket?
>
> thoughts
>
>
> Ricky
> "All seeing, all knowing, ALWAYS annoying"
> <<<<<stjeanr@*******.CANADORE.ON.CA>>>>>
> ______________

I am afraid I have to agree, with all the new toys out on the "market"
subtlety has gone the way of Dollar. However, there are ways to
compensate. For instance in a few of my games, Lonestar is a very active
threat. The have jacked the price of the more noisy items up through the
roof. However, my players can get them if the want to pay through the
nose. Also, Stealth is much more important than firepower. Anyone can
have firepower, and engage in fire fights but the smart players avoid it.

_______________________________________________________________________________


"Come Friends Run With me Towards Danger"
-Unknown MST3K quote

Scott Spencer
sts100z@********.cc.odu.edu

"Nothing can stop us......we're on a mission from Glod"
-Cliff the Troll from Terry Prachett's Soul Music
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message no. 17
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: semi-armor piercing shell
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 17:33:38 GMT
Ricky St. Jean writes:
> Does anyone else find the scale of armor and weapons is no longer suble. My
> pcs all want heavy military armor and vehicle lasers mounted on the
> shoulder. Because of all of the technology, NPC's need barret sniper rifles
> amd 12 layers of clothing.
>
> What happened to a narcojet pistol or silenced predator with gel rounds, and
> sporting only an armored jacket?

That's the way most of our group does it... admittedly they're powergamed,
*highly* experienced PCs with Firearms skills of 9 or 10, so a pistol shot
can be *very* deadly (especially with Smartlink II...) On the other hand,
Lynch uses an antique Colt Python .357 revolver, because he feels that
only having six rounds teaches fire discipline :)

In our campaign, outside *very* defined circumstances, loudÞad. The
opposition always has more people, more guns, more armoured vehicles than
you do. There is a time and a place for heavy weaponry, but it isn't on
your standard shadowrun.

And if the stuff is so widespread that the PCs have it, then so do the NPCs.
Or a streetgang or another runner team decide they want all that flash gear.
They want lasers? They have them. But the klystron polariser's just died.
How do they even find out beyond "I pull the trigger and nothing happens"?
Who actually knows how to fix a broken laser? Let alone has access to the
spare parts? This guy wants parts for a Fireblade? That means he must *have*
a Fireblade! Let's set up a meet, grab him, and make him tell us where he
stashed it!

No, when I GM my players make sure that they stick to nice, conventional
stuff that doesn't make waves or attract attention any more than necessary :)
The alternatives can be a little... embarrassing.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

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