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Message no. 1
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 21:08:12 +0100
Has our view of flight changed by 2064?
The inclusion of Zeppelins suggests that some of our ideas have altered, ie
airships have become acceptable again...

If may be Frank Herbert's influence but I'm wondering whether anyone has
considered Ornithopters?

Do we see their use? do we see technology being at a level where they're
possible? Certainly the VCR gives a pilot enough control...

Has anyone thought of using ornithopters? If so, in what capacity?
presumably not as gunships (or maybe so) So, experimental prototypes which
are really going to confuse the team's rigger when they try to steal it?
Recon aircraft?


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 2
From: jameserec@*****.ca (James Erec)
Subject: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 17:53:33 -0400 (EDT)
--- Lone Eagle <loneeagle@********.co.uk> wrote: >
> Has our view of flight changed by 2064?
> The inclusion of Zeppelins suggests that some of our
> ideas have altered, ie
> airships have become acceptable again...
>
Zeppelins are indeed safe again as can be attested by
Goodyear. I believe they changed the gas they use to
helium but I may be mistaken. I know they are not as
flamable as they were. They are not popular for
transport because jets are faster. From a rigger
standpoint I can see their popularity because of their
stealth. A black Zepplin at night could drop a team
off on the roof of a building quite handily. They are
not the fastest getaway vehicle but I imagine they can
reach higher altitudes than the average Lonestar
yellowjacket.



====Kato Combat Cabbie

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
Message no. 3
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 18:55:04 -0400
At 05:53 PM 9/11/2003, James Erec wrote:
>Zeppelins are indeed safe again as can be attested by
>Goodyear. I believe they changed the gas they use to
>helium but I may be mistaken. I know they are not as
>flamable as they were. They are not popular for

Yep, helium.

>transport because jets are faster. From a rigger

And, I think probably more weight capacity by volume.

Though, I believe zeppelins can VTOL, plus they have much better fuel economy.

>standpoint I can see their popularity because of their
>stealth. A black Zepplin at night could drop a team
>off on the roof of a building quite handily. They are
>not the fastest getaway vehicle but I imagine they can
>reach higher altitudes than the average Lonestar
>yellowjacket.

And should be able to pack a more than sufficient fly swatter... or is it
bee swatter?

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
Message no. 4
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 16:02:53 -0700
On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 17:53:33 -0400 (EDT)
James Erec <jameserec@*****.ca> wrote:
> --- Lone Eagle <loneeagle@********.co.uk> wrote: >
> > Has our view of flight changed by 2064?
> > The inclusion of Zeppelins suggests that some of our
> > ideas have altered, ie
> > airships have become acceptable again...
> >
> Zeppelins are indeed safe again as can be attested by
> Goodyear. I believe they changed the gas they use to
> helium but I may be mistaken. I know they are not as
> flamable as they were.

[big, fat, snip]

Zepplins are not safe in the current era because there is not yet a solution
for an exterior frame that can stand up to major air turbulence. That's what
brought down the Navy Zepplins, and they were helium filled. I suppose a
waving of hands and invocation of 'smart fibers' could generate a solution
for SR purposes. Modern airships of size are still unframed blimps, as far as
I know.
--Anders
Message no. 5
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 10:56:22 +0200
According to Lone Eagle, on Thursday 11 September 2003 22:08 the word on
the street was...

> If may be Frank Herbert's influence but I'm wondering whether anyone has
> considered Ornithopters?

Hmm... why do I, based on the time on your message, get the idea you
watched Science Shack on BBC2 on Thursday? :)

FWIW, I doubt it; I don't think smart materials are up to the job in SR
(yet) to allow wing movement to be as refined as birds can do it -- and,
based on my limited knowledge of the subject, I'm under the impression
that until you can do that, you're better off with fixed or rotating wings
than with flapping ones.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't you know you know what's right?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:02:00 +0200
According to James Erec, on Thursday 11 September 2003 23:53 the word on
the street was...

> Zeppelins are indeed safe again as can be attested by
> Goodyear.

Nitpicking: the Goodyear and other advertising airships are not zeppelins.
A zeppelin has a rigid frame, made from aluminium in the 1900s ones,
whereas current airships do not, making them blimps. They're just bags
filled with helium that retain their shape because of the gas pressure
inside.

> I believe they changed the gas they use to
> helium but I may be mistaken.

No aviation authority in the world would let you fly an airship filled with
hydrogen :)

> They are not popular for transport because jets are faster.

And can carry a lot more for a given size aircraft. Typical modern blimps
have cabins that hold something like two to ten people, depending on the
model, and they're as big as a couple of houses. Whereas a fixed-wing,
prop-driven aircraft for the same number of people is roughly the size of
a car or small van with wings and a tail stuck on.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't you know you know what's right?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: arclight@*********.de (Arclight)
Subject: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:34:17 +0200
At 11:02 12.09.2003 +0200, Gurth wrote:

<snip>

> > They are not popular for transport because jets are faster.
>
>And can carry a lot more for a given size aircraft. Typical modern blimps
>have cabins that hold something like two to ten people, depending on the
>model, and they're as big as a couple of houses. Whereas a fixed-wing,
>prop-driven aircraft for the same number of people is roughly the size of
>a car or small van with wings and a tail stuck on.

But blimps (or real Zeppelin) can carry more weight. Until this year, there
was a company planning to build new Zeppelin for heavy load transportation
- then, they went bancrupt ...


--
Arclight

Death to all fanatics!
Message no. 8
From: markus.widmer@******.at (Markus Widmer)
Subject: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:17:02 +0200
Actually, the "Deutsche Zeppelin Reederei" in Friedrichshafen,
Germany, has reeinvented itself. They have a series of zeppelins, one
of them flying tours for tourists over the Lake of Constance.

According to www.zeppelinflug.de, this zeppelin is no blimp. It is
filled with several ballonets filled with helium, and the hull is
slightly overpressured. There is some sort of endoskeleton constructed
with carbon-fibre triangles joined by horizontal aluminum ribs. All
engines, the rudder und the passenger cabin are integral parts of this
construction. The whole thing weighs about 1.000 kilos.

Obviously though, the thing is not made for commercial transport,
since it is not allowed to fly in bad weather conditions.

Markus
Message no. 9
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:18:42 +0100
At 09:56 AM 12/9/2003, Gurth wrote:
> > If may be Frank Herbert's influence but I'm wondering whether anyone has
> > considered Ornithopters?
>
>Hmm... why do I, based on the time on your message, get the idea you
>watched Science Shack on BBC2 on Thursday? :)

Perhaps because you watched it too? :)

But I did some checking afterwards, looked into that Canadian one... the
project is still ongoing and they seem so be making some progress (although
not much).

My thought was that with the high efficiency flatmotors used in
cybernetics...etc, the level of control offered by a VCR and smart
materials being used perhaps only to change the aerofoil cross-section, (a
flexible core surrounded by a solid leading and trailing edge and smart top
and bottom surfaces, a charge passed through the underside of the wing
would increase the curve of the aerofoil allowing the pilot to "cup" the
wing for a birdlike stall landing.) it might be enough of an advance to
make them vaguely practical...

<toggle fireproof suit>
There's also the point that not long ago it was thought that with modern
materials and some slight advances the first recorded ornithopter reference
could be made to fly... and after all the chap's been around thinking it
through for long enough to make his own adjustments...
So perhaps with Leonardo running around the advances might be even greater...

<runs to hide in experimental carp-proof shelter taken directly from one of
deVinci's lost notebooks>


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 10
From: mooseshagger@*******.com (Captain Canuck)
Subject: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 04:32:25 -0700
I don't know/care about zeppelins or ornithopters, but have a look here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3112095.stm

In terms of stealthy long distance approaches, this one seems pretty high on
the list, but I wasn't there to hear what kind of noise the winged
parachutist would make.

Either way, seems pretty insane to me.

And speaking of British television, I need to make a freerunning/parcours
skill specialty.

CMF.

_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid963
Message no. 11
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:43:55 +0100
At 10:02 AM 12/9/2003, Gurth wrote:
>No aviation authority in the world would let you fly an airship filled with
>hydrogen :)

Which is annoying, especially considering some of the new evidence
regarding the Hindenburg which suggests that Nazi pressures had corners cut
in its construction, including the use of a fabric for the outer skin which
only needs the slightest spark to ignite it and burns with quite a shocking
speed and intensity.
Hydrogen as the lift gas looked like picking back up not that long ago
(being cheaper, more easily and more enviromentally soundly synthesised)
but the fear of another Hindenburg hammered it down again.


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 12
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:14:27 +0200 (MEST)
Arclight wrote:

> But blimps (or real Zeppelin) can carry more weight. Until this year,
> there
> was a company planning to build new Zeppelin for heavy load transportation

Yeah, the Cargolifter CL-160, the company went bancrupt last year 'cause
they weren't able to solve the problems coming with the size of the thing: The
hull couldn't resist speeds higher than 50 knots (IIRC), the thing couldn't
climb higher than 2000 meters and the thing wasn't too stable in the first
place.

They were able to produce a working model though, and sold a smaller CL-75
to Canada.


Given the materials in the SR Universe, Zeppelins of the size ol the CL-160
(240 meters long!) wouldn't be that much trouble anymore.

--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard Gamemaster from Hell and General Idiot

COMPUTERBILD 15/03: Premium-e-mail-Dienste im Test
--------------------------------------------------
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Message no. 13
From: shadowrun@********.demon.co.uk (Andrew Norman)
Subject: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:43:00 +0100
On Friday 12 Sep 2003 12:32 pm, Captain Canuck wrote:
[snip]
> In terms of stealthy long distance approaches, this one seems pretty high
> on the list, but I wasn't there to hear what kind of noise the winged
> parachutist would make.

Is his aim is off ... **splat** I would think.

But seriously I wonder what the terminal velocity for a winged troll would be
?

-Andrew
Message no. 14
From: me@******.net (X3K6A2)
Subject: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 15:44:46 +0200
> They were able to produce a working model though, and sold a smaller CL-75
> to Canada.

This one they sold to canada, was PR.
They sold it to a company they own to 100%.

X3K6A2
Message no. 15
From: grimjack@******.com (Martin Little)
Subject: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 10:51:48 -0400 (EDT)
> > I believe they changed the gas they use to
> > helium but I may be mistaken.
>
> No aviation authority in the world would let you fly an airship filled with
> hydrogen :)

IIRC the only reason the german airships were using hydrogen was because
they could not obtain suitable amounts of helium (to prevent the
zeppelin's being used for military purposes)
Message no. 16
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 08:13:23 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phillip Gawlowski" <cmd_jackryan@***.net>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 5:14 AM
Subject: Re: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...


> Arclight wrote:
>
> > But blimps (or real Zeppelin) can carry more weight. Until this year,
> > there
> > was a company planning to build new Zeppelin for heavy load
transportation
>
> Yeah, the Cargolifter CL-160, the company went bancrupt last year 'cause
> they weren't able to solve the problems coming with the size of the thing:
The
> hull couldn't resist speeds higher than 50 knots (IIRC), the thing
couldn't
> climb higher than 2000 meters and the thing wasn't too stable in the first
> place.
>
> They were able to produce a working model though, and sold a smaller CL-75
> to Canada.
>
Like I said, classical Zeps can't be built strong enough to put up with the
sort of
air turbulence that killed the majority of 'em historiclly. You get a little
vertrical
rolling turbulance, and --- SNAP---. Hey, it just LOOKS serene and safe up
there.
Strong enough in modern terms means able to deal with storm turbulence.
There
is no easy solution.

--Anders
Message no. 17
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 08:16:28 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lone Eagle" <loneeagle@********.co.uk>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 4:43 AM
Subject: Re: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...


> At 10:02 AM 12/9/2003, Gurth wrote:
> >No aviation authority in the world would let you fly an airship filled
with
> >hydrogen :)
>
> Hydrogen as the lift gas looked like picking back up not that long ago
> (being cheaper, more easily and more enviromentally soundly synthesised)
> but the fear of another Hindenburg hammered it down again.

It also had something to do with availability. Germany apparently did not
have access to American helium at that time. Something about a reserve
of strategic materials.
--Anders
Message no. 18
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:44:22 +0100
At 12:32 PM 12/9/2003, Captain Canuck wrote:
>And speaking of British television, I need to make a freerunning/parcours
>skill specialty.

Know the feeling :D

Although it really wasn't as good as I expected, not like the old advert
they did.


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 19
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 16:55:58 +0100
At 03:51 PM 12/9/2003, Martin wrote:
>IIRC the only reason the german airships were using hydrogen was because
>they could not obtain suitable amounts of helium (to prevent the
>zeppelin's being used for military purposes)

Hydrogen allowed the big Zeppelins to do their job, The size the Hindenburg
would have had to be if it had been filled with helium is scary, you need
nearly twice the volume of helium as hydrogen to provide the same lift.


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 20
From: grimjack@******.com (Martin Little)
Subject: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:23:13 -0400 (EDT)
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, Lone Eagle wrote:

> At 03:51 PM 12/9/2003, Martin wrote:
> >IIRC the only reason the german airships were using hydrogen was because
> >they could not obtain suitable amounts of helium (to prevent the
> >zeppelin's being used for military purposes)
>
> Hydrogen allowed the big Zeppelins to do their job, The size the Hindenburg
> would have had to be if it had been filled with helium is scary, you need
> nearly twice the volume of helium as hydrogen to provide the same lift.
>
According to a quick google search of various ham radio (use balloons in
emergencies) sites:
Helium gas has 92% of Hydrogen's lifting capacity even though it is twice
the density

Helium
24 ft^3 lifts 463.79 lbs
Hydrogen
24 ft^3 lifts 503.87
Message no. 21
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:05:56 +0200
According to Lone Eagle, on Friday 12 September 2003 13:18 the word on the
street was...

> >Hmm... why do I, based on the time on your message, get the idea you
> >watched Science Shack on BBC2 on Thursday? :)
>
> Perhaps because you watched it too? :)

Could be, could be...

> But I did some checking afterwards, looked into that Canadian one... the
> project is still ongoing and they seem so be making some progress
> (although not much).

As long as they don't use a Mini engine and windsurfing sails, they should
do OK :)

> My thought was that with the high efficiency flatmotors used in
> cybernetics...etc, the level of control offered by a VCR and smart
> materials being used perhaps only to change the aerofoil cross-section,
> (a flexible core surrounded by a solid leading and trailing edge and
> smart top and bottom surfaces, a charge passed through the underside of
> the wing would increase the curve of the aerofoil allowing the pilot to
> "cup" the wing for a birdlike stall landing.) it might be enough of an
> advance to make them vaguely practical...

I think it depends a lot on how advanced you see SR tech as being, in your
game world.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't you know you know what's right?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 22
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Semiballistics, Suborbitals, Zeppelins...
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:09:35 +0200
According to Lone Eagle, on Friday 12 September 2003 17:55 the word on the
street was...

> Hydrogen allowed the big Zeppelins to do their job, The size the
> Hindenburg would have had to be if it had been filled with helium is
> scary, you need nearly twice the volume of helium as hydrogen to provide
> the same lift.

AFAIK (from watching Discovery Channel :) the Hindenburg was designed to be
filled with helium; the fact that the Americans refused to sell helium to
Nazi Germany forced them to fill it with hydrogen instead.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't you know you know what's right?
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Further Reading

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