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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject:	[Semi-OT] AVM Missile Tech Link
Date:	Thu Sep 20 16:40:00 2001

Message no. 1 The following link takes you to a site with a few pictures and a
downloadable movie of a Javaline anti-tank missile hitting a T-72, and
reducing it to it's component parts.

http://www.esdjournal.com/articles/javelin/javelin.htm

When it comes to anti-tank weapons and Shadowrun, I'm pretty much inclined
to just say that a hit equals a kill after seeing the video.

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
--

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Martin Little)
Subject:	[Semi-OT] AVM Missile Tech Link
Date:	Thu Sep 20 16:55:01 2001

Message no. 2 On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, Graht wrote:

> The following link takes you to a site with a few pictures and a
> downloadable movie of a Javaline anti-tank missile hitting a T-72, and
> reducing it to it's component parts.
>
> http://www.esdjournal.com/articles/javelin/javelin.htm
>
> When it comes to anti-tank weapons and Shadowrun, I'm pretty much inclined
> to just say that a hit equals a kill after seeing the video.
>

I wouldn't really consider that weapon to be a man portable (at least in
the case of a shadowrun team)
If you figure the missle itself is 50 pounds I'd guess the launcher is
probably at least another 50.

What's interesting about this is it's not a direct fire weapon, it's an
indirect fire so that it hits the tank where it's armour is the weakest
and least suited to directing the energy away.

Impressive video though, glad I'm not a tanker anymore :)

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Robert Manning)
Subject:	[Semi-OT] AVM Missile Tech Link
Date:	Thu Sep 20 17:25:01 2001

Message no. 3 At 05:09 PM 9/20/01, you wrote:

>I wouldn't really consider that weapon to be a man portable (at least in
>the case of a shadowrun team)
>If you figure the missle itself is 50 pounds I'd guess the launcher is
>probably at least another 50.
>
>What's interesting about this is it's not a direct fire weapon, it's an
>indirect fire so that it hits the tank where it's armour is the weakest
>and least suited to directing the energy away.
>
>Impressive video though, glad I'm not a tanker anymore :)

According to the information I have (Greenhill Military Manuals) ,
the Javelin weighs 15.88kg with the combined missile in tube and the
Command Launch Unit, which is the targeting and firing system. It doesn't
say what each component weighs, but I would venture to guess that most of
the weight is in the missile itself.
Anyway, in SR terms, a relatively strong character (4+) could
carry it without any encumbrance, provided that he wasn't carrying much
else. Concealing such a beast is a whole other problem.

archangel@*********.com

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12 (Decipher at http://www.geekcode.com/ )
GU d- s+: a22? C++ UL P L+ E(----) W+ N++ o? K? w(---) O? M-- V? PS+ PE Y+
PGP? t-- 5 X+ R+ tv b++(+++) DI++++ D++ G e h(--) !r y-
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	[Semi-OT] AVM Missile Tech Link
Date:	Fri Sep 21 06:15:13 2001

Message no. 4 According to Graht, on Thu, 20 Sep 2001 the word on the street was...

> When it comes to anti-tank weapons and Shadowrun, I'm pretty much
> inclined to just say that a hit equals a kill after seeing the video.

There is, however, a mention in FoF that armor tech is better than
anti-armor tech in SR. Not to mention that firing a latest-generation ATGM
at even a recent version of the T-72 may not be the best example -- it
needs to be fired against an equally-modern MBT for true comparisons, IMHO.
(But lets not go there :) Still, you are right in that SR's anti-armor
weapons are basically far too weak, but simply telling your players, "As
you're sitting in the back of the Banshee, there's a big explosion and then
it's all over" kind of lacks appeal...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If only it were almost easy.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	[Semi-OT] AVM Missile Tech Link
Date:	Fri Sep 21 06:15:19 2001

Message no. 5 According to Martin Little, on Thu, 20 Sep 2001 the word on the street was...

> I wouldn't really consider that weapon to be a man portable (at least in
> the case of a shadowrun team)
> If you figure the missle itself is 50 pounds I'd guess the launcher is
> probably at least another 50.

Javelin is a man-portable missile, that can be carried and operated by a
single person easily enough. There's no separate launcher, just the missile
in a tube that you chuck away after firing it. I don't have any weights and
dimensions handy, but the fact that they fit into the same missile racks as
TOWs in the M2A2 Bradley (which can carry either 5 TOWs or 3 TOWs and 2
Javelins, says the manual) means the tubes will be about a meter long and
maybe 20 cm in diameter. At a guess, that means they'd weigh somewhere
between 10 and 20 kg each, which is light enough to carry them for short
distances. Shadowrunners and law enforcement forces only need to travel
short distances on foot anyway, so a weapon like this could certainly be
part of their arsenal.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If only it were almost easy.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject:	[Semi-OT] AVM Missile Tech Link
Date:	Fri Sep 21 11:00:01 2001

Message no. 6 At 12:05 PM 9/21/2001 +0200, Gurth wrote:
>According to Graht, on Thu, 20 Sep 2001 the word on the street was...
>
> > When it comes to anti-tank weapons and Shadowrun, I'm pretty much
> > inclined to just say that a hit equals a kill after seeing the video.
>
>There is, however, a mention in FoF that armor tech is better than
>anti-armor tech in SR. Not to mention that firing a latest-generation ATGM
>at even a recent version of the T-72 may not be the best example -- it
>needs to be fired against an equally-modern MBT for true comparisons, IMHO.
>(But lets not go there :)

Actually, it was my fault for not being clear in that I mean if an
anti-tank weapon hits any vehicle that is less substantial then an MBT,
than that vehicle is toast. Sorry for the confusion :)

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
--

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	[Semi-OT] AVM Missile Tech Link
Date:	Sat Sep 22 06:15:01 2001

Message no. 7 According to Graht, on Fri, 21 Sep 2001 the word on the street was...

> Actually, it was my fault for not being clear in that I mean if an
> anti-tank weapon hits any vehicle that is less substantial then an MBT,
> than that vehicle is toast. Sorry for the confusion :)

Oh, yes, I agree with that. The problem, though, as I already mentioned is
that it would make the PCs' lives very short if they run into that kind of
weapon even once. Better to stick with the cinematic way SR handles a lot
of things and give them at least a chance of crawling out of the vehicle
^H^H^H^H^H^H wreck with only a Serious wound :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If only it were almost easy.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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