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Message no. 1
From: Pete *Iago* Palmer <peter@***********.NET.NZ>
Subject: Re: [Semi-OT] Book Bindings (was Re: Damaged soft covers)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 08:05:31 +1200
At 12:22 27/09/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Greetings!!
>
>Would everyone say that poor book binding is a big problem with FASA Corp and
>most of the gaming industry in general? Would gamers in general be willing to
>pay more if the companies could guarantee that their books would hold up a
lot
>better?
>
>-Bandit

The only books that I had fall apart on me were the first ed SSC and 1st Ed
Grimoire. However I vehemently disagree with the idea that to get a product
that doesn't fall apart i must pay more $$$.

To me that is just poor quality control and smacks of greed and arrogance.

For $30 US read NZ $100 or more for SR3 softcover, i would expect a book
to not fall apart, even softcover. TSR had a real problem in NZ with their
books constantly failing, and many shopowners were at their wits end with
a constant stream of returned books from unhappy customers.

It got to the point here that the local distributors had to get all the
hardback
books rebound at their own expense...

I know that I won't be giving any book publisher the benefit of the doubt if
a book is improperly bound, and will want a refund. If the situation is as
grave
as it seems then Fasa will probably lose a fair few overseas sales because
at the
prices paid, it's not worth the effort to update if the new books are
flimsier and
yet more expensive.

I don't mind paying a premium price for a premium product, and hardback
editions
of rulebooks certainly have worked in the past...colour artwork is the
first thing that
should be dropped, it may add to the aesthetic appeal, but oft-times it is
filler, and
not always worthwhile.

- Iago
Message no. 2
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: [Semi-OT] Book Bindings (was Re: Damaged soft covers)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 07:57:43 +1000
>The only books that I had fall apart on me were the first ed SSC and 1st Ed
>Grimoire. However I vehemently disagree with the idea that to get a product
>that doesn't fall apart i must pay more $$$.

I'd agree with you there - though our main problem was with the SR2
hardback. I've got the original group copy and it's in *multiple* bits. As
soon as I find it again, I'll be popping it in a binder.

>For $30 US read NZ $100 or more for SR3 softcover, i would expect a book
>to not fall apart, even softcover. TSR had a real problem in NZ with their
>books constantly failing, and many shopowners were at their wits end with
>a constant stream of returned books from unhappy customers.

$NZ 100?? Are you _sure_? It's only $AU 50 - if it truly is $100 for you,
you might do better ordering from Aus.

Lady Jestyr

- Eagles may soar, but turkeys don't get sucked into jet engines. -
jestyr@*******.com.au URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr
Message no. 3
From: Pete *Iago* Palmer <peter@***********.NET.NZ>
Subject: Re: [Semi-OT] Book Bindings (was Re: Damaged soft covers)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:05:58 +1200
At 07:57 28/09/98 +1000, Lady Jestyr wrote:

>>For $30 US read NZ $100 or more for SR3 softcover, i would expect a book
>>to not fall apart, even softcover. TSR had a real problem in NZ with their
>>books constantly failing, and many shopowners were at their wits end with
>>a constant stream of returned books from unhappy customers.
>
>$NZ 100?? Are you _sure_? It's only $AU 50 - if it truly is $100 for you,
>you might do better ordering from Aus.

It's an extrapolation based on similar US priced products...given the way the
NZ $ has devalued to less than 48 cents US, and that the local importers are
notoriously greedy in their margins, I doubt I'll see SR3 in shops here for
less
the ubiquitous $99.95.

The extrapolation is also based on my experience in the NZ games retail area,
I managed one of the few long term gaming specific shops in NZ.

Also despite the fact that SR3 is a book per se, the fact that on invoices
it is
listed as a _game_ means that it attracts a 20% duty [one of the few areas to
still get this].

Ordering from Aus is actually a pain...
A$50 Aus + freight say of A$10 = A$60 ~ $73 + Duty of $14 then add in
GST of 12.5 % = $97 approx... not much difference there.

And to all those who say Customs won't hit me up...I live in a city which
serves
as a major incoming goods gateway...Customs have a serious presence here :o(

[I know this having just paid duty on a second hand boardgame that I bought
for $350 US, despite the fact it was 2nd Hand, the duty was charged
regardless]

oh well looking at it now, 100 bucks is chickenfeed, as long as it doesn't
crap out,
which was the original subject of this thread...

-Iago
Message no. 4
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: [Semi-OT] Book Bindings (was Re: Damaged soft covers)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 12:02:00 +1000
I'm having a hard time dealing with the fact that _everyone's_ books seem
to be falling apart "within a month" or so. I've got a hell of a lot of
Shadowrun books, and I've only had two fall apart on me (one was ripped to
pieces by a sodding bastard I know and the other was lent out to a few
people who I no longer lend books to). Take care of your books - don't
bend them too much, don't throw them around, and don't otherwise abuse
them. Even the most well-made books will fall apart if you don't take the
necessary precautions to ensure their safety - and that includes hardcovers.

- ARKHAM
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste somebody with..."

ARKHAM'S ASYLUM ( http://www.asgard.net.au/~zzdeden/shadowrun/ )
Message no. 5
From: Rick Musci <Chocobo219@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [Semi-OT] Book Bindings (was Re: Damaged soft covers)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 22:12:16 EDT
In a message dated 9/27/98 7:08:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU writes:

> Even the most well-made books will fall apart if you don't take the
> necessary precautions to ensure their safety - and that includes
hardcovers.

Well, I find FASA's hardcovers to be fairly poor normally. That is, I have't
gotten a baby, so I don't know how they've changed. But I did buy a slightly
damaged Earthdawn Hardcover a year or two back. It is made of the
flimsyist<sp> material. The edges have been torn to shreds through just normal
use. That really bothers me as I haven't been able to find another main ED
rulebook since.

Steel Katana
Message no. 6
From: Michael vanHulst <Schizi@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [Semi-OT] Book Bindings (was Re: Damaged soft covers)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 22:14:20 EDT
In a message dated 9/27/98 7:09:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU writes:

> I'm having a hard time dealing with the fact that _everyone's_ books seem
> to be falling apart "within a month" or so. I've got a hell of a lot of
> Shadowrun books, and I've only had two fall apart on me (one was ripped to
> pieces by a sodding bastard I know and the other was lent out to a few
> people who I no longer lend books to).
The only one that fell apart on me was BBB1 that had the "easy to remove"
archetype section :o) Other than that, I have had several with the peeling
spines (my ED hardcover lost the outer part of the spine, yet the book itself
is still held togethor)
I guess it depends on ho wmuch you use them, but also on who uses them,
several of my players proved too much for my AD&D books, so I told them they
could only reference the ones they bought, worked well for me.
Message no. 7
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: [Semi-OT] Book Bindings (was Re: Damaged soft covers)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 12:19:31 +1000
>Well, I find FASA's hardcovers to be fairly poor normally. That is, I have't
>gotten a baby, so I don't know how they've changed. But I did buy a slightly
>damaged Earthdawn Hardcover a year or two back. It is made of the
>flimsyist<sp> material. The edges have been torn to shreds through just
normal
>use. That really bothers me as I haven't been able to find another main ED
>rulebook since.

Well, maybe it'd help if you defined what you term "normal use". Most
people I've known call "normal use" simply throwing the sourcebook into a
bag, lugging it around to where ever, passing it around between players,
throwing it across the table to others, leaving it on the ground for a few
hours with cover up and pages open, and then throwing it back in a bag and
lugging back home. That seems a little harsh to me. No book will survive
long under these conditions. Just take a few precautions - put a plastic
folder into your bag to give the softcovers some protection, use plastic
sleeves on each of your books to protect them from water damage and
abrasion, make sure the players know _not_ to throw the books around or
leave them in awkward positions, and so on. Works for me.
Oh, and by the way, my ED hardcover is still fine and I got it when the
game first came out. Sure the edges have started to lose a little colour,
but that's normal on any sourcebook. =)

- ARKHAM
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste somebody with..."

ARKHAM'S ASYLUM ( http://www.asgard.net.au/~zzdeden/shadowrun/ )
Message no. 8
From: Rick Musci <Chocobo219@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [Semi-OT] Book Bindings (was Re: Damaged soft covers)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 22:29:11 EDT
In a message dated 9/27/98 7:26:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU writes:

> Well, maybe it'd help if you defined what you term "normal use". Most
> people I've known call "normal use" simply throwing the sourcebook into a
> bag, lugging it around to where ever, passing it around between players,
> throwing it across the table to others, leaving it on the ground for a few
> hours with cover up and pages open, and then throwing it back in a bag and
> lugging back home. That seems a little harsh to me.

Normal Use:
Reading it occasionally. Holding it open to make a character. Leaving it on
the shelf most of the rest of the time.
Fact is I haven't been able to find any people to play with for a while. And
just as I do, well it goes on the market.

Steel Katana
Message no. 9
From: Bill ChewStriker <bill@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: [Semi-OT] Book Bindings (was Re: Damaged soft covers)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 22:40:51 -0400
> I'm having a hard time dealing with the fact that _everyone's_ books seem
>to be falling apart "within a month" or so. I've got a hell of a lot of
>Shadowrun books, and I've only had two fall apart on me (one was ripped to
>pieces by a sodding bastard I know and the other was lent out to a few
>people who I no longer lend books to). Take care of your books - don't
>bend them too much, don't throw them around, and don't otherwise abuse
>them. Even the most well-made books will fall apart if you don't take the
>necessary precautions to ensure their safety - and that includes hardcovers.
>
>- ARKHAM
> "A mind is a terrible thing to waste somebody with..."
>
>ARKHAM'S ASYLUM ( http://www.asgard.net.au/~zzdeden/shadowrun/ )
>
>
The only complaint I have is about my 3rd edition book which I got a few
weeks ago. The arch-type section is loose and is falling apart but besides
that it's all good. Not sure if this has happened to others but this is
only problem I had.
---Myth-Chip/Striker/Bill
Message no. 10
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: [Semi-OT] Book Bindings (was Re: Damaged soft covers)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 23:37:55 -0500
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU>
Date: Sunday, September 27, 1998 9:25 PM

>>The edges have been torn to shreds through just normal use.
>
> Well, maybe it'd help if you defined what you term "normal use". Most
>people I've known call "normal use" simply throwing the sourcebook into a
>bag, lugging it around to where ever, passing it around between players,
>throwing it across the table to others, leaving it on the ground for a few
>hours with cover up and pages open, and then throwing it back in a bag and
>lugging back home. That seems a little harsh to me.

That sounds almost like a normal night at a game session, Bob. You sure you
game a lot?

Having said that, I spend a lot of time gaming, treating my books much as
you describe, and none of them have more than scuffed-up covers.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 11
From: Bob Tockley <zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: [Semi-OT] Book Bindings (was Re: Damaged soft covers)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 15:15:22 +1000
>That sounds almost like a normal night at a game session, Bob. You sure you
>game a lot?
>
>Having said that, I spend a lot of time gaming, treating my books much as
>you describe, and none of them have more than scuffed-up covers.

Yeah, and I know it sounds like a normal night at a game session (minus
the pizza, nibblies, chips, and so on =) ), but that doesn't mean that
it's how you have treat your books.

- ARKHAM
"A mind is a terrible thing to waste somebody with..."

ARKHAM'S ASYLUM ( http://www.asgard.net.au/~zzdeden/shadowrun/ )
Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: [Semi-OT] Book Bindings (was Re: Damaged soft covers)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:58:43 +0200
According to Bob Tockley, at 12:02 on 28 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> I'm having a hard time dealing with the fact that _everyone's_ books seem
> to be falling apart "within a month" or so.

ine don't. The only SR book that really fell apart on me was my first-
edition softback. Both covers have come off, and the first 40 pages or so
are loose from the rest of the book. This after about 9 months of use. My
SRII hardback is damaged along the sides of the spine, especially the
back, and a few pages have come out, but that took about 5 years. My
others books are generally in good shape, though some more than others.

> Take care of your books - don't bend them too much, don't throw them
> around, and don't otherwise abuse them. Even the most well-made books
> will fall apart if you don't take the necessary precautions to ensure
> their safety - and that includes hardcovers.

Fact remains, though, that if you use your books they will eventually get
worn out. The only way to keep them in perfect conditions is to not use
them at all -- buy two of every book, one for the game and one for the
collection. But I certainly won't be doing that -- I'd rather spend my
money on something I don't already own...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Nobody's going to murder anyone here even if it means I have to
kill someone!" --Kane, detective/rigger
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: [Semi-OT] Book Bindings (was Re: Damaged soft covers)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 01:35:17 EDT
In a message dated 9/27/1998 9:09:00 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
zzdeden@****.ASGARD.NET.AU writes:

> I'm having a hard time dealing with the fact that _everyone's_ books seem
> to be falling apart "within a month" or so. I've got a hell of a lot of
> Shadowrun books, and I've only had two fall apart on me (one was ripped to
> pieces by a sodding bastard I know and the other was lent out to a few
> people who I no longer lend books to). Take care of your books - don't
> bend them too much, don't throw them around, and don't otherwise abuse
> them. Even the most well-made books will fall apart if you don't take the
> necessary precautions to ensure their safety - and that includes
hardcovers.
>
I'll shed some nice light on this situation for you Arkham. My book isn't
coming apart, neither are to my knowledge any of the other 5 softcovers that
were purchased at Gencon for the home game group here. I do admit however,
that our gaming group is considerably nicer to their SR materials these
days...

-K

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