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Message no. 1
From: The Geek in the Hat alex@**********.com
Subject: senses and magical targets
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 21:23:32 -0400 (EDT)
Doc' sez:
> Personally, I think that being in
> contact with something is just as good as seeing it -
> you don't have to have your eyes open (or have enough
> light in this case) to cast a spell on something
> you're touching. But that's another can of worms
> altogether.

Perhaps it'd be a good idea to pop this can o' worms open... why is it,
exactly, that metahuman magicians rely on line of sight to cast spells?
I agree that you should be able to cast spells at things you're touching;
this would make playing a blind magician a good bit more viable...

But what happens if we're talking about a magician that's not a metahuman?
The magical dependence on sight, in our case, is because we depend so much
on sight in our daily lives; we humans are visual creatures. So if we've
got an Awakened dog, who doesn't have the same degree of reliance on
sight, but thinks more in terms of scent and sound than we do, I would
imagine that targeting would work entirely differently... perhaps a dog
could get a metaphysical fix on something in terms of its smell. Then
again, this probably wouldn't come up to often, as we don't get awakened
canines in SR... but Merrows? Or awakened dolphins? Could they target by
echolocation?

On a note that's more likely to come up, could a troll or dwarf mage (who
would tend to think of infravision as a normal part of sight) zap
somebody who was trying to hide behind something by the heat signature?

The Geek in the Hat
alex@********.org
Message no. 2
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: senses and magical targets
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 11:39:27 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: The Geek in the Hat <alex@**********.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, October 05, 2000 11:13 AM
Subject: senses and magical targets
>
>Perhaps it'd be a good idea to pop this can o' worms open... why is it,
>exactly, that metahuman magicians rely on line of sight to cast spells?
>I agree that you should be able to cast spells at things you're touching;
>this would make playing a blind magician a good bit more viable...
>
>But what happens if we're talking about a magician that's not a metahuman?
>The magical dependence on sight, in our case, is because we depend so much
>on sight in our daily lives; we humans are visual creatures. So if we've
>got an Awakened dog, who doesn't have the same degree of reliance on
>sight, but thinks more in terms of scent and sound than we do, I would
>imagine that targeting would work entirely differently... perhaps a dog
>could get a metaphysical fix on something in terms of its smell. Then
>again, this probably wouldn't come up to often, as we don't get awakened
>canines in SR... but Merrows? Or awakened dolphins? Could they target by
>echolocation?
>
>On a note that's more likely to come up, could a troll or dwarf mage (who
>would tend to think of infravision as a normal part of sight) zap
>somebody who was trying to hide behind something by the heat signature?
>
Interesting. At the moment I don't really have an opinion on if this should
work, but I will say that there is a scientist doing the rounds right now
trying to prove that seeing things is a two-way street. The reason you can
feel someone watching the back of your head is because they are also sending
some kind of signal whenever they focus on something. Now it really doesn't
matter how right or wrong this guy is, there's no reason why this can't be a
working mechanism in Shadowrun, and the reason why LOS is needed.
Message no. 3
From: Florian Schaetz (Irian) iryan@********.de
Subject: senses and magical targets
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 11:02:43 +0200
> >Perhaps it'd be a good idea to pop this can o' worms open... why is it,
> >exactly, that metahuman magicians rely on line of sight to cast spells?
> >I agree that you should be able to cast spells at things you're touching;
> >this would make playing a blind magician a good bit more viable...

And magemasks totaly senseless...

> >On a note that's more likely to come up, could a troll or dwarf mage (who
> >would tend to think of infravision as a normal part of sight) zap
> >somebody who was trying to hide behind something by the heat signature?

In this case, I would say: No, because there's no direct sight-line to the
target's aura....

Irian
Message no. 4
From: Matt Bond MBOND@******.demon.co.uk
Subject: senses and magical targets
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 10:21:32 +0100
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Florian Schaetz (Irian) [mailto:iryan@********.de]

> > >On a note that's more likely to come up, could a troll or
> dwarf mage (who
> > >would tend to think of infravision as a normal part of sight) zap
> > >somebody who was trying to hide behind something by the
> heat signature?
>
> In this case, I would say: No, because there's no direct
> sight-line to the
> target's aura....
>
> Irian

I see. So aura's are hidden by warm air... No wonder villains always
plot their nefarious activities while in a sauna.

:)

Matt
Message no. 5
From: Florian Schaetz (Irian) iryan@********.de
Subject: senses and magical targets
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 13:38:00 +0200
> > > >On a note that's more likely to come up, could a troll or
> > > dwarf mage (who
> > > >would tend to think of infravision as a normal part of sight) zap
> > > >somebody who was trying to hide behind something by the
> > heat signature?
> >
> > In this case, I would say: No, because there's no direct
> > sight-line to the
> > target's aura....
> >
> > Irian
>
> I see. So aura's are hidden by warm air... No wonder villains always
> plot their nefarious activities while in a sauna.

??? When you just see the heat signature (throug a paper-wall, for example),
you can't "zap" him... Am I wrong or was the question, if you can
"zap"
someone, when you just see his body heat?

Irian
Message no. 6
From: Matt Bond MBOND@******.demon.co.uk
Subject: senses and magical targets
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 14:17:07 +0100
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Florian Schaetz (Irian) [mailto:iryan@********.de]
> Sent: 06 October 2000 12:38
> To: shadowrn@*********.com
> Subject: Re: senses and magical targets
>
>
> > > > >On a note that's more likely to come up, could a troll or
> > > > dwarf mage (who
> > > > >would tend to think of infravision as a normal part of
> sight) zap
> > > > >somebody who was trying to hide behind something by the
> > > heat signature?
> > >
> > > In this case, I would say: No, because there's no direct
> > > sight-line to the
> > > target's aura....
> > >
> > > Irian
> >
> > I see. So aura's are hidden by warm air... No wonder villains always
> > plot their nefarious activities while in a sauna.
>
> ??? When you just see the heat signature (throug a
> paper-wall, for example),
> you can't "zap" him... Am I wrong or was the question, if you
> can "zap"
> someone, when you just see his body heat?
>
> Irian

Ahh, I see. I misread the earlier poster as saying

"can a dwarf or troll [who have natural infravision, and see heat as
naturally as humans see light] target someone who is hiding behind a
heat source."

whereas they were actually saying

"can a dwarf or troll [who have natural infravision, and see heat as
naturally as humans see light] target someone who is hidden, by 'seeing'
their [the targets] heat signature [through the obstruction to light]."

Matt
Message no. 7
From: Florian Schaetz (Irian) iryan@********.de
Subject: senses and magical targets
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 16:22:47 +0200
> Ahh, I see. I misread the earlier poster as saying
>
> "can a dwarf or troll [who have natural infravision, and see heat as
> naturally as humans see light] target someone who is hiding behind a
> heat source."
>
> whereas they were actually saying
>
> "can a dwarf or troll [who have natural infravision, and see heat as
> naturally as humans see light] target someone who is hidden, by 'seeing'
> their [the targets] heat signature [through the obstruction to light]."

I had to read it twice, too.. :-)

Irian
Message no. 8
From: Bira ra002585@**.unicamp.br
Subject: senses and magical targets
Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 16:51:11 GMT
On Fri, 6 Oct 2000 11:02:43 +0200
"Florian Schaetz (Irian)" <iryan@********.de> wrote:

> > >Perhaps it'd be a good idea to pop this can o' worms open... why is it,
> > >exactly, that metahuman magicians rely on line of sight to cast spells?
> > >I agree that you should be able to cast spells at things you're touching;
> > >this would make playing a blind magician a good bit more viable...
>
> And magemasks totaly senseless...

Not so. They also mess up your concentration :).



Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://members.xoom.com/slbr
http://www.terravista.pt/Nazare/2729
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.cjb.net
ICQ#4055455
Message no. 9
From: Florian Schaetz (Irian) iryan@********.de
Subject: senses and magical targets
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 22:51:22 +0200
> > > >Perhaps it'd be a good idea to pop this can o' worms open... why is
it,
> > > >exactly, that metahuman magicians rely on line of sight to cast
spells?
> > > >I agree that you should be able to cast spells at things you're
touching;
> > > >this would make playing a blind magician a good bit more viable...
> >
> > And magemasks totaly senseless...
>
> Not so. They also mess up your concentration :).

You can't see it, you can't cast a spell on it.

Irian
Message no. 10
From: Wagemage wagemage@**.rr.com
Subject: senses and magical targets
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 09:40:45 -0400
>Perhaps it'd be a good idea to pop this can o' worms open... why is it,
<snip>
>On a note that's more likely to come up, could a troll or dwarf mage (who
>would tend to think of infravision as a normal part of sight) zap
>somebody who was trying to hide behind something by the heat signature?

I'll weigh in on this particular quandry. IMHO, you need some direct
method of pinpointing a target and then a direct "view" of that target.
So under my interpretation, a dog could not cast based on scent alone,
because they do not know where the person is, only that they went thatta
way. Same for heat wafting off people. You cannot see THEM, you can see the
effects of thier presence. No more useful than trying to cast on a
footprint.
However, echolocation is a viable means of casting to my mind. The
caster knows the precise location of the target via echolocation, not just
it's general direction. Dolphins can even distinguish shapes and identify
creatures, boats, etc, by the method. Thus it's a direct view of the target.

Say you're in a dark room, an office. There are cubes about. You can see
the beam of a flashlight shining up from within the cube. You might even be
able to figure out that it's being held against the wall, but you still
don't KNOW EXACTLY where it is. You have a pretty damn good guess, but you
don't KNOW. For magic you have to know.
Message no. 11
From: Walter Scheper ratlaw@*******.com
Subject: senses and magical targets
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 04:35:54 -0400
On 7 Oct 2000, at 9:40, Wagemage wrote:

> However, echolocation is a viable means of casting to my mind. The
> caster knows the precise location of the target via echolocation, not just
> it's general direction. Dolphins can even distinguish shapes and identify
> creatures, boats, etc, by the method. Thus it's a direct view of the target.
>
Okay, but in MaM it says that the ultrasound vision can't be used
to target spells. So is echolocation a different process from
ultrasound vision or should ultrasound vision be a viable way to
target spells?

That is all
-Walter
ICQ: 83513580
Message no. 12
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: senses and magical targets
Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 09:37:38 GMT
>From: "Walter Scheper" <ratlaw@*******.com>
> > However, echolocation is a viable means of casting to my mind. The
> > caster knows the precise location of the target via echolocation, not
>just
> > it's general direction. Dolphins can even distinguish shapes and
>identify
> > creatures, boats, etc, by the method. Thus it's a direct view of the
>target.
> >
>Okay, but in MaM it says that the ultrasound vision can't be used
>to target spells. So is echolocation a different process from
>ultrasound vision or should ultrasound vision be a viable way to
>target spells?

There should not be any difference between cyber and natural echo location
IMHO; the cyber version is paid for with essence. I guess the same logic
that does not allow you to target things through a clairvoyance spell
applies.

Phil

Let us assume we have a can opener.
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Message no. 13
From: Paul Collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject: senses and magical targets
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 21:25:29 +1000
Paul Collins


------------------------------------------------

-----Out you popped, out of your mummy's pumpkin and everybody shouting,
"It's a boy, it's a boy!" And somebody said, "But it hasn't got a
winkle!"
And then I said, "A boy without a winkle? God be praised, it is a miracle. A
boy without a winkle!" And then Sir Thomas More pointed out that a boy
without a winkle is a girl. Anyway, I was really disappointed.
-----Nursie


----- Original Message -----
From: "Walter Scheper" <ratlaw@*******.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: senses and magical targets


> On 7 Oct 2000, at 9:40, Wagemage wrote:
>
> > However, echolocation is a viable means of casting to my mind. The
> > caster knows the precise location of the target via echolocation, not
just
> > it's general direction. Dolphins can even distinguish shapes and
identify
> > creatures, boats, etc, by the method. Thus it's a direct view of the
target.
> >
> Okay, but in MaM it says that the ultrasound vision can't be used
> to target spells. So is echolocation a different process from
> ultrasound vision or should ultrasound vision be a viable way to
> target spells?
>
> That is all
> -Walter

More than likely it's because the ultrasound vision isn't a natural sense,
or a techno version of a natural sense. For echolocation, if it where
natural, then maybe, say for a dolphin magician.

Paul Collins


------------------------------------------------

-----Out you popped, out of your mummy's pumpkin and everybody shouting,
"It's a boy, it's a boy!" And somebody said, "But it hasn't got a
winkle!"
And then I said, "A boy without a winkle? God be praised, it is a miracle. A
boy without a winkle!" And then Sir Thomas More pointed out that a boy
without a winkle is a girl. Anyway, I was really disappointed.
-----Nursie
Message no. 14
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: senses and magical targets
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 22:07:26 -0500
On Fri, 6 Oct 2000 13:38:00 +0200 "Florian Schaetz (Irian)"
<iryan@********.de> writes:
<SNIP>
> ??? When you just see the heat signature (throug a paper-wall,
> for
> example),
> you can't "zap" him... Am I wrong or was the question, if you
> can
> "zap"
> someone, when you just see his body heat?

It's a matter of astral LOS, not physical LOS. Now, the mage might not
think of targeting someone he doesn't see, but that's another matter. :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
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