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Message no. 1
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Fwd: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:54:29 EDT
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I got this from Daniel, so I'm doing as he requested... Enjoy, I like this
line of thinking...

-K

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From: Danyel N Woods <9604801@********.ac.nz>
To: "'K in the Shadows'" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:21:33 +1200
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G'day, K. A nasty thought occurred to me over the weekend. Could you do me
a favour and forward the following point to the ShadowRN list, and the
ensuing thread to me? Thanks a ton, and of course feel free to put in your
own .02Y.

* * * * * * *

It occurred to me over the weekend that the Seretech and Shiawase decisions
were made by the US Supreme Court, and thus were part of American law. Now,
admittedly, these may well be landmark decisions, precedent-setting
decisions in the States, _but who says that other countries recognise
Seretech and Shiawase as part of their legal systems?_ I rather doubt that
_every country in the world_ is going to be boneheaded enough to sign away
sovereignty over good portions of their territory.

Can anyone imagine the chagrin of a megacorp citizen who is told that their
corporate SIN isn't valid in, say, New Zealand <patriotic grin> because the
High Court doesn't consider a corporation to be a sovereign state? Or an
ACS officer who can't extradite a shadowrunner from such a country? Or that
same ACS officer being told that they can't even carry a pistol without
police permission, that an Aztechnology compound is still New Zealand
jurisdiction, and no matter who you work for, machine-gunning a trespasser
is still Murder-1?

I know I can. <G>

Danyel Woods - <mailto:9604801@********.ac.nz>
9604801@********.ac.nz
There are three sides to every story: yours, theirs, and the truth.

--part0_906422069_boundary--
Message no. 2
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:59:44 -0500
----------

> I got this from Daniel, so I'm doing as he requested... Enjoy, I like
this
> line of thinking...
>
> -K


That was beautiful, K... I have a tear in my eye... time to play with
people's heads...
Message no. 3
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:13:07 +1000
[stuff about how the Seretech and Shiawase decisions are UCAS law snipped]

There are countries that do not recognise corporate extraterritoriality (Tir
Tairngire springs to mind). I'd imagine that most holders of corporate
citizenship would also hold a national citizenship of some sort to get
around this problem.

Of course, this then brings up a whole new kettle of fish...

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 4
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:22:23 -0400
At a guess, once the US made that particular boneheaded decision,
it'd only take a small handful of other nations before the corporations
had enough leverage to make everyone do it.

"What? You say you won't grant us extraterritoriality within your
borders? That's very unfortunate. I'm afraid budget cuts have forced us to
lay off all of your citizens. And I without employees, we won't be needing
those facilities we were paying you taxes on - we'll close those too,
and relocate the equipment to your neighbor, who was kind enough to
make certain legal concessions to us. I suspect that with your
suddenly decreased tax base, you'll have trouble feeding your suddenly
increased unemployed population, but that's really not my concern.
Unless you'd care to reconsider?"

--Sean
Message no. 5
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:41:58 -0400
At 07:54 PM 9-21-98 EDT, you wrote:

>It occurred to me over the weekend that the Seretech and Shiawase decisions
>were made by the US Supreme Court, and thus were part of American law. Now,
>admittedly, these may well be landmark decisions, precedent-setting
>decisions in the States, _but who says that other countries recognise
>Seretech and Shiawase as part of their legal systems?_ I rather doubt that
>_every country in the world_ is going to be boneheaded enough to sign away
>sovereignty over good portions of their territory.

I can easily see it due to one very simple factor: economics. A megacorp
means money in your economy, and lots of it. If the Big Eight said, "I'm
sorry, we have to close down all our major operations in your country,
because it's simply better business to be extraterritorial in America,"
don't you think a government would do what it takes to keep that money from
leaving the country? (No, the government isn't collecting that much in
taxes from a corp, but yes, the presence of the corps still drives the
economy.) Heck, even some local corps may up and move, given that kind of
advantage. Can you really see any country being able to afford giving up a
significant portion of their economic base, no matter the cost?

Besides which, who's to say that the megas didn't simply buy the courts of
other countries, as it's implied they did the US Justices?

It might be a painful pill to swallow, but in the end it's a no-brainer.


Starjammer | "Would it help if we sacrificed a
goat?"
starjammer@**********.com | -- Street sam "Crusher" Carlson
to mage
Marietta, GA | Straight Blue, on a really bad day
Message no. 6
From: Royce Cetlin <rcetlin@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:14:59 PDT
Ya know...I'm sure i would've loved it...BUT, hotmail is a bit of a pain
when it comes to attachements, SO, I (at this point) have no clue what
the deal is....

>Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 19:54:29 EDT
>Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
>From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
>Subject: Fwd: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
>To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
>
>I got this from Daniel, so I'm doing as he requested... Enjoy, I like
this
>line of thinking...
>
>-K
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 7
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 20:13:47 -0700
At 19:14 9/21/98 , you wrote:
>Ya know...I'm sure i would've loved it...BUT, hotmail is a bit of a pain
>when it comes to attachements, SO, I (at this point) have no clue what
>the deal is....

This has been sent off list.

--
Dvixen - dvixen@********.com
TSA Team Builder! - The Shadowrun Archive - New location soon(ish)!
Herkimer's Lair (framed) - http://coastnet.com/~dvixen
(Comments welcomed, flames dropped into the abyss.)
Message no. 8
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 00:46:56 EDT
In a message dated 9/21/1998 9:17:06 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
rcetlin@*******.COM writes:

>
> Ya know...I'm sure i would've loved it...BUT, hotmail is a bit of a pain
> when it comes to attachements, SO, I (at this point) have no clue what
> the deal is....

It came as an attachment??? NO!!! Please tell me it wasn't so. It was a
forwarded message, and I didn't think my forwarding made things an attachment.
Nexx, if you have it, please resend it as a reply or something, PLEASE!!!
That was just *too good* a thought to let slip by.

-K
Message no. 9
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: FW: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:35:27 +1000
As per K's request, here's Daynel's message.

-----Original Message-----
From: Danyel N Woods [mailto:9604801@********.ac.nz]
Sent: Monday, 21 September 1998 9:22
To: 'K in the Shadows'
Subject: Seretech and Shiawase decisions


G'day, K. A nasty thought occurred to me over the weekend.
Could you do me
a favour and forward the following point to the ShadowRN list, and the
ensuing thread to me? Thanks a ton, and of course feel free to
put in your
own .02Y.

* * * * * * *

It occurred to me over the weekend that the Seretech and Shiawase
decisions
were made by the US Supreme Court, and thus were part of American
law. Now,
admittedly, these may well be landmark decisions, precedent-setting
decisions in the States, _but who says that other countries recognise
Seretech and Shiawase as part of their legal systems?_ I rather
doubt that
_every country in the world_ is going to be boneheaded enough to sign away
sovereignty over good portions of their territory.

Can anyone imagine the chagrin of a megacorp citizen who is told
that their
corporate SIN isn't valid in, say, New Zealand <patriotic grin>
because the
High Court doesn't consider a corporation to be a sovereign state? Or an
ACS officer who can't extradite a shadowrunner from such a
country? Or that
same ACS officer being told that they can't even carry a pistol without
police permission, that an Aztechnology compound is still New Zealand
jurisdiction, and no matter who you work for, machine-gunning a trespasser
is still Murder-1?

I know I can. <G>

Danyel Woods - <mailto:9604801@********.ac.nz>
9604801@********.ac.nz
There are three sides to every story: yours, theirs, and
the truth.
Message no. 10
From: Michael Coleman <mscoleman@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 02:39:32 -0500
> It occurred to me over the weekend that the Seretech and Shiawase
> decisions
> were made by the US Supreme Court, and thus were part of American
> law. Now,
> admittedly, these may well be landmark decisions, precedent-setting
> decisions in the States, _but who says that other countries recognise
> Seretech and Shiawase as part of their legal systems?_ I rather
> doubt that
> _every country in the world_ is going to be boneheaded enough to sign away
> sovereignty over good portions of their territory.
>
> Can anyone imagine the chagrin of a megacorp citizen who is told
> that their
> corporate SIN isn't valid in, say, New Zealand <patriotic grin>
> because the
> High Court doesn't consider a corporation to be a sovereign state? Or an
> ACS officer who can't extradite a shadowrunner from such a
> country? Or that
> same ACS officer being told that they can't even carry a pistol without
> police permission, that an Aztechnology compound is still New Zealand
> jurisdiction, and no matter who you work for, machine-gunning a trespasser
> is still Murder-1?
>
> I know I can. <G>
>
> Danyel Woods

I have never understood on what basis the Supreme Court made their decision.
It is contrary to the constitution and all the laws of the USA. I can only
think that the judges were bribed or coerced. As to other counties limiting
corporate sovereignty I see it as perfectly possible. Unless they mess with
the judges again. In fact I think Tir Tairngire has limits on corporate
sovereignty. Speaking of New Zealand does anyone have any info on it in
2060. I have always heard it was a pretty stable country and wonder how the
sixth world would effect it.

Mike
Message no. 11
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:58:06 +1000
> I have never understood on what basis the Supreme Court made their
> decision.
> It is contrary to the constitution and all the laws of the USA. I can
> only
> think that the judges were bribed or coerced. As to other counties
> limiting
> corporate sovereignty I see it as perfectly possible. Unless they
> mess with
> the judges again. In fact I think Tir Tairngire has limits on
> corporate
> sovereignty. Speaking of New Zealand does anyone have any info on it
> in
> 2060. I have always heard it was a pretty stable country and wonder
> how the
> sixth world would effect it.
>
> Mike
>
You're right about the rights of megas being severely limited in Tir
Tairngire, Mike. The thing is though, somehow the elves managed to
create a strong economy almost out of thin air, that doesn't now and
NEVER DID rely on the megas. A lot of other countries can't afford to
rile the megas because their economies just aren't strong enough to
survive it. The kinds of countries that would (oppressive places like
Aztlan or third world countries or communist regimes or some other kind
of fringe market group) are either going to have the clout to survive it
(by being owned by another mega or by having IEs backing it or something
like that) or they're gonna fold and be bought out by the megas. Yes,
countries can go bankrupt and I can very easily see the AAAs buying out
entire bankrupt countries. Hell, it wouldn't be that hard for them to
ARRANGE for a country to go bust - and if the country owes almost all of
its debts to one mega, that corp isn't going to have to sweat much to
buy it out. Now ain't THAT a scary thought?

On the other hand, your average capitalist nation is just going to
knuckle under to the pressure. They might not like it, but it IS good
business sense to go along with it. After all, isn't that was happened
to the USA? And that was when it was STILL a world power - NOT after it
had crumbled.

I'm not saying that there won't BE places like you guys are describing -
after all, there already are. I'm just saying that they're going to be
in the minority.

And like I said, if you want to REALLY freak your players, why not try
going the other way? Have them take a run somewhere in Africa or Eastern
Europe and find themselves in an ENTIRE COUNTRY owned by one fragging
mega! Sure, it wouldn't be much different than Aztlan, but that's just
one place and it's well known - and the Azzies are actually sorta subtle
about it, even though everyone knows what's what. How would you feel
when you drive into a country and the border guards all visibly and
officially work for a corp who has you on their A-list for termination?
When you walk down the street and everything and everyone has that
corp's logo on it/them? When you don't actually have any rights unless
you're a shareholder? Could you imagine if every AAA had its own private
domain the size Texas or bigger - and they each went to war with each
other over MARKET SHARES?? I don't know about you, but that would
fraggin' terrify me.

Doc'

.sig Sauer
Message no. 12
From: Michael Coleman <mscoleman@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 03:17:38 -0500
> At a guess, once the US made that particular boneheaded decision,
> it'd only take a small handful of other nations before the corporations
> had enough leverage to make everyone do it.
>
> "What? You say you won't grant us extraterritoriality within your
> borders? That's very unfortunate. I'm afraid budget cuts have forced us to
> lay off all of your citizens. And I without employees, we won't be needing
> those facilities we were paying you taxes on - we'll close those too,
> and relocate the equipment to your neighbor, who was kind enough to
> make certain legal concessions to us. I suspect that with your
> suddenly decreased tax base, you'll have trouble feeding your suddenly
> increased unemployed population, but that's really not my concern.
> Unless you'd care to reconsider?"
>
> --Sean
>
"Oh that is Ok. By the while we have just nationalized all your property
and facilities here in <insert name>. I am sure we can find some patriotic
citizen to run them. And we have outlawed all the goods you manufacturer.
We can have you competing against us. And you know all those raw materials
you use to buy from us, well we can sell them to you any more. Do you have
any valid ID? I am sorry we don't recognize that form of ID. Do you have
any money with you? I am sorry we don't recognize that form of currency.
Being that you are a vagrant I suggest you leave now."

Mike
Message no. 13
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 04:39:21 -0400
At 03:17 AM 9-22-98 -0500, you wrote:

<Snip a mega telling a government they're withdrawing from that country's
economy because they can't get extraterritoriality.>

>"Oh that is Ok. By the while we have just nationalized all your property
>and facilities here in <insert name>. I am sure we can find some patriotic
>citizen to run them. And we have outlawed all the goods you manufacturer.
>We can have you competing against us. And you know all those raw materials
>you use to buy from us, well we can sell them to you any more. Do you have
>any valid ID? I am sorry we don't recognize that form of ID. Do you have
>any money with you? I am sorry we don't recognize that form of currency.
>Being that you are a vagrant I suggest you leave now."
>
>Mike

Yeah, that would work. For about a minute. But what does your
oh-so-clever Minister of Trade do when *all* the megas, from the Triple-A's
on down, boycott your country due to their "anti-business attitudes?" Gee,
you've just been cut off from 95% of the world economy. Hope your economy
can survive on almost zero imports and exports. Hope you can manufacture
every item you need and grow all the food. Hope that when all those
nationalized factories blow up from being hit repeatedly by "accidentally
deorbited satellites" (i.e. Thor bundles) you can rebuild them and get by
without their products. Hope that you don't want access to any satellites
that you haven't launched for anything like weather, reconaissance, mining,
communications, etc. Hope that when your military's vehicles and weapon
systems become obsolete you can design and manufacture cutting-edge
replacements. Hope that you don't want to send any of your citizens to
schools sponsored by corps anywhere in the world. Hope you don't need
Matrix access. Hope you don't...

But I think you get the idea...

Starjammer | "Would it help if we sacrificed a
goat?"
starjammer@**********.com | -- Street sam "Crusher" Carlson
to mage
Marietta, GA | Straight Blue, on a really bad day
Message no. 14
From: Michael Coleman <mscoleman@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 04:04:16 -0500
> Yeah, that would work. For about a minute. But what does your
> oh-so-clever Minister of Trade do when *all* the megas, from the
> Triple-A's
> on down, boycott your country due to their "anti-business
> attitudes?" Gee,
> you've just been cut off from 95% of the world economy. Hope your economy
> can survive on almost zero imports and exports. Hope you can manufacture
> every item you need and grow all the food. Hope that when all those
> nationalized factories blow up from being hit repeatedly by "accidentally
> deorbited satellites" (i.e. Thor bundles) you can rebuild them and get by
> without their products. Hope that you don't want access to any satellites
> that you haven't launched for anything like weather,
> reconaissance, mining,
> communications, etc. Hope that when your military's vehicles and weapon
> systems become obsolete you can design and manufacture cutting-edge
> replacements. Hope that you don't want to send any of your citizens to
> schools sponsored by corps anywhere in the world. Hope you don't need
> Matrix access. Hope you don't...
>
> But I think you get the idea...
>
> Starjammer

You are right in that many countries would not be able to withstand that
kind of pressure. But there should be a good many that could do to
ethical, cultural or religious reason. Shadowrun already has some, Tir
Tairngire, Tir Na Nog, Tibet the Awakened Lands and the NANs all have
restrictions. And I cant see the AAAs pissing off any of the major oil
producing countries in the middle east. They need that oil. And those
countries wont give up any sovereignty. Look at New Zealand and Australia
telling the US and France they did not want nuclear weapons tested or near
their territory. Just because you threaten me with a big stick does not
mean I will back down.

Mike
Message no. 15
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 21:46:56 +1000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
> Behalf Of Sean McCrohan
> Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 1998 10:22 AM
>
>
> At a guess, once the US made that particular boneheaded decision,
> it'd only take a small handful of other nations before the corporations
> had enough leverage to make everyone do it.
>
> "What? You say you won't grant us extraterritoriality within your
> borders? That's very unfortunate. I'm afraid budget cuts have forced us to
> lay off all of your citizens. And I without employees, we won't be needing
> those facilities we were paying you taxes on - we'll close those too,
> and relocate the equipment to your neighbor, who was kind enough to
> make certain legal concessions to us. I suspect that with your
> suddenly decreased tax base, you'll have trouble feeding your suddenly
> increased unemployed population, but that's really not my concern.
> Unless you'd care to reconsider?"

That was about what I was going to say. It only takes a few countries
interested in some real financial benefits that corps are willing to offer
to get extraterritoriality, and viola, they have the small handful of
nations needed to leverage the others.

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947
Message no. 16
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:34:51 -0400
On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Sean McCrohan wrote:

-> At a guess, once the US made that particular boneheaded decision,
->it'd only take a small handful of other nations before the corporations
->had enough leverage to make everyone do it.
->
-> "What? You say you won't grant us extraterritoriality within your
->borders? That's very unfortunate. I'm afraid budget cuts have forced us to
->lay off all of your citizens. And I without employees, we won't be needing
->those facilities we were paying you taxes on - we'll close those too,
->and relocate the equipment to your neighbor, who was kind enough to
->make certain legal concessions to us.

Actually, until they SELL the property, they have to pay taxes on
it. Just a minor point.

->I suspect that with your
->suddenly decreased tax base, you'll have trouble feeding your suddenly
->increased unemployed population, but that's really not my concern.
-> Unless you'd care to reconsider?"

If one corporation did this in a country with five or six big
corps, it wouldn't faze them. If five or six did it... maybe. Most of
the biggest economic countries besides USA & USSR (Britain, France,
Germany, Spain, China/maybe) might be able to withstand the pressure to
allow megacorps to extraterritorialize. Each government freezes the
assets of that corporation within their territorial boundaries (thereby
allowing them to continue to collect taxes on it), file charges for laying
off population without due cause (and, since it's that government's
laws...guess who'll win), then you'll have the suits from the ex-workers,
also being tried in that country's courts, which will also probably win.
Government isn't helpless... they can push back. Imagine how expensive
lawsuits from every employee, lawsuits from the government, and still
paying property taxes would cost the company.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 17
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:16:49 -0400
Fixer wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Sean McCrohan wrote:
>
> -> [ . . . ] And I without employees, we won't be needing
> ->those facilities we were paying you taxes on - we'll close those too,
> ->and relocate the equipment to your neighbor, who was kind enough to
> ->make certain legal concessions to us.
>
> Actually, until they SELL the property, they have to pay taxes on
> it. Just a minor point.

On the land, yes. But not on profits. (Which drop to zero rather quickly
when you shut down.) Besides, it wouldn't be hard at all for the corps to
sell all that prime industrial space to some local for a cheap price.


> Government isn't helpless... they can push back. Imagine how expensive
> lawsuits from every employee, lawsuits from the government, and still
> paying property taxes would cost the company.

But how would the government enforce it? The corp's just pulled itself
and all its executives out of the nation's borders... Who is the country
going to charge? And how would they get them to show up in court? If the
company was still operating in that country, the most you could do is
threaten to shut them down -- and they've just done that for you.

It's not another nation, you can't declare war on them.. And if you did
you'd be flattened. The only appeal available is to the Corporate Court.
And if the offended corp was one of the Big Eight, or if the defendant
makes a plausible case that your government is anti-commerce, well, so
much for that. >8->


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 18
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:41:34 -0400
At 09:34 AM 9/22/98 -0400, you wrote:
>On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Sean McCrohan wrote:
> If one corporation did this in a country with five or six big
>corps, it wouldn't faze them. If five or six did it... maybe. Most of
>the biggest economic countries besides USA & USSR (Britain, France,
>Germany, Spain, China/maybe) might be able to withstand the pressure to
>allow megacorps to extraterritorialize. Each government freezes the

Actually, I just heard on the news a few days ago that with the current
problems in Russia the size of the economy in Russia has contracted a lot.
To put it in perspective, the economy of Russia is now smaller than that of
The Netherlands.

The biggest economies now, in a wierd kind of order (ie I don't remember
their exact placement):

USA, Japan, UK, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Canada. China is getting
there quickly because of sheer size. The so-called paper tigers in the
Southeast Asia are have to one point or another collapsed. Most of that was
because of cronyism in the government with the buisnesses. A corp would say
jump and the govt would say how high. Because they were almost all owned by
the same people who ran the government. Same thing in Russia.

That does brin up an interesting point in SR3.

Spoiler for Blood in the Boardroom!















One of the big tracks in BitB shows the downside of extra-territoriality
and not reporting to anyone. The american guy in Fuchi (blanking on his
name) spends about 2 years plotting around with Fuchi and selling off
everything that he can so that he can create Novatech. He could do this
because no-one was watching. If they were still under UCAS law, he would
have had to provide details on his stock dealings and the japanese would
have found out in plenty of time to stop him. At the very least it would
have made it a lot harder to do.

Sommers
Homepage comming soon!
Message no. 19
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:50:42 -0400
At 10:16 AM 9/22/98 -0400, you wrote:
>It's not another nation, you can't declare war on them.. And if you did
>you'd be flattened. The only appeal available is to the Corporate Court.
>And if the offended corp was one of the Big Eight, or if the defendant
>makes a plausible case that your government is anti-commerce, well, so
>much for that. >8->

But remember that these companies do try to act like countries. They have
boarders, their own money, make their own laws, some of them even have
militaries. So if you're a little country you play the same thing against
these corps as third world countries did in the 60's: play them against
each other. Soviet Union and USA both want a little country to go their
way, they play the other side. Its dangerous, but you can win.

The Big Eight are not monolithic, quite a few of these corps hate each
other both professionally and personally. Think how bad it'll be with Cross
and Ares on the Big Ten. If a country wants some leverage, find those
rivalries and play them out. Make them think that its in their own best
interests not to push for those laws that favor them 75% of the time,
because another corp is going to settle for 50%.

"I'm sorry that you don't agree with our interpretation that your
corporation is not extra-territorial Mr. Ares rep. And since you've
threated to pull out all of your people and equipment, I'm afraid that
we'll have to declare a national emergency and seize all of your assets. So
sorry, your people can go but the equipment now belongs to the People.

Oh, who will run everything? We have some friends of the people who said
that they would be happy to help us. I believe you know our friend from
Cross Applied Technologies? Well, here he is now, so I must be going. These
men will show you to the airport."

Sommers
Homepage comming soon!
Message no. 20
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:25:00 -0400
Sommers wrote:
>
> Oh, who will run everything? We have some friends of the people who said
> that they would be happy to help us. I believe you know our friend from
> Cross Applied Technologies? Well, here he is now, so I must be going. These
> men will show you to the airport."

Good thoughts, but Ares wouldn't sit still for this, and neither would the
Corporate Court. Let's not forget that this is *exactly* what
Aztechnology tried when Aztlan nationalized all of the other megacorps'
assets inside their borders.. The Corp Court nailed Aztechnology with
everything they could short of an Omega Order, and the other megacorps
banded together to slam the Big A hard and fast until reparations were
made.

Based on that, I'm not even sure Cross would *go* for the country's deal.
Not on the surface, anyway. They might be a Big Player now thanks to
recent events, but they're still a very young megacorp and they can't
afford to risk slotting off Ares *and* everyone else.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 21
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:00:13 -0400
At 11:25 AM 9/22/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Sommers wrote:
>Good thoughts, but Ares wouldn't sit still for this, and neither would the
>Corporate Court. Let's not forget that this is *exactly* what
>Aztechnology tried when Aztlan nationalized all of the other megacorps'
>assets inside their borders.. The Corp Court nailed Aztechnology with
>everything they could short of an Omega Order, and the other megacorps
>banded together to slam the Big A hard and fast until reparations were
>made.

True, because Aztechnology tried a power grab for every other corp's toys
in Aztlan. So the Coporate Corp did a strike against Aztechnology assets.
They didn't attack the country directly. Every single corp felt threatened
by what Aztechnology was doing. Ares would have to convince everyone in the
CC (now 8 other people besides the target) that the other corp was doing
something bad. Think that some of the others might want to take Ares down a
peg or two just to slot them off for past insults? Or not really care one
way or another because at this time Renraku doesn't have anything in
country and doesn't plan too? Or Cross tells Novatach that if they side
with them against Ares, it'll make it easier for them to beat Ares for that
new weapons contract?

>Based on that, I'm not even sure Cross would *go* for the country's deal.
>Not on the surface, anyway. They might be a Big Player now thanks to
>recent events, but they're still a very young megacorp and they can't
>afford to risk slotting off Ares *and* everyone else.

Only if they think it would slot off everyone else. Cross goes out of it
way to slot off Ares. Lucien Cross has a personal thing against Damien
Knight. Hell, it sounds like he made his company for the express purposes
of slotting him off. And now the other guy from Ares is with Cross to bring
up the personal animosity even more.

Oh, and for a counter example to privelaged treatement, look at Aztech and
Cross. They both get almost exclusive deals in their respective countries.
Any other corp in country has to be owned in part by a local subsidiary or
by the government...except of course for Aztechnology and Cross. They're
getting away with it all the time, and the CC doesn't do anything about it.

Sommers
Homepage comming soon!
Message no. 22
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:37:05 -0400
At 04:04 AM 9-22-98 -0500, you wrote:

<Snip me listing some consequences of corporate censure.>

>You are right in that many countries would not be able to withstand that
>kind of pressure. But there should be a good many that could do to
>ethical, cultural or religious reason. Shadowrun already has some, Tir
>Tairngire, Tir Na Nog, Tibet the Awakened Lands and the NANs all have
>restrictions. And I cant see the AAAs pissing off any of the major oil
>producing countries in the middle east. They need that oil. And those
>countries wont give up any sovereignty. Look at New Zealand and Australia
>telling the US and France they did not want nuclear weapons tested or near
>their territory. Just because you threaten me with a big stick does not
>mean I will back down.
>
>Mike

No, it's not impossible, though IMHO it's not as easy or cut-and-dried as
the SR folks seem to make it, either. The Tirs seem to have managed
through Uber-Elf machinations during the early magic years, when they were
the only ones who really knew what was going on. The NAN primarily because
they actually might have the industrial and resource base to manage on
their own, and because of the threat of the Ghost Dance. But those are
incredibly thin reasons when you consider the economic power the megas are
wielding in the early 21st c. The bottom line is, if the megas won't do
business with you, that leaves darn few folks to do business with.

As for the oil producers, I do see them having to play the megas' game.
After all, oil isn't the energy staple in the 21st c. that it has been in
the 20th, and you can't eat it. Honestly, I see a lot of middle eastern
countries having hard times in the SR future. The oil market starts
declining as deregulation and improved technology make nuke power and
electric vehicles more attractive, and the Resource Rush starts fulfilling
the world's shrinking oil requirements from other sources. Then the Crash
of '29 wipes out the banks and the holdings that those countries have
already built up over the course of a century of oil dealings. So you're
left with countries who need customers just at the moment when their
particular product is at its lowest demand in many years. Ouch!

The bottom line is that I just don't see any small, limited-resource
country being able to dictate to the megas, simply because they need the
economy that the megas control more than the megas need to do business with
countries that won't play their game. Most of the countries that have done
it in SR mostly got away with it through Deus ex Machina. Even today there
are multinational conglomerates not far from megacorp status that have
annual revenues larger than almost any nation's GNP. The primary thing
that keeps them in check is that governments can still tell them "no."
When that power goes... <shudder>


Starjammer | "Would it help if we sacrificed a
goat?"
starjammer@**********.com | -- Street sam "Crusher" Carlson
to mage
Marietta, GA | Straight Blue, on a really bad day
Message no. 23
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:40:29 -0400
On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Starjammer wrote:

-><Snip me listing some consequences of corporate censure.>
<snip you..snipping him..sniping...>
->As for the oil producers, I do see them having to play the megas' game.
->After all, oil isn't the energy staple in the 21st c. that it has been in
->the 20th, and you can't eat it.

Oil may not be the energy staple, but where do you think all those
chemicals for plastic come from? Gasoline is porbably more a byproduct in
2060 than it is now.

<snip rest of paragraph>
->The bottom line is that I just don't see any small, limited-resource
->country being able to dictate to the megas, simply because they need the
->economy that the megas control more than the megas need to do business with
->countries that won't play their game. Most of the countries that have done
->it in SR mostly got away with it through Deus ex Machina. Even today there
->are multinational conglomerates not far from megacorp status that have
->annual revenues larger than almost any nation's GNP. The primary thing
->that keeps them in check is that governments can still tell them "no."
->When that power goes... <shudder>

Welcome to the sixth world, chummer... ]:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 24
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:31:30 -0400
At 11:37 AM 9/22/98 -0400, you wrote:
>At 04:04 AM 9-22-98 -0500, you wrote:
>The bottom line is that I just don't see any small, limited-resource
>country being able to dictate to the megas, simply because they need the
>economy that the megas control more than the megas need to do business with
>countries that won't play their game. Most of the countries that have done
>it in SR mostly got away with it through Deus ex Machina. Even today there
>are multinational conglomerates not far from megacorp status that have
>annual revenues larger than almost any nation's GNP. The primary thing
>that keeps them in check is that governments can still tell them "no."
>When that power goes... <shudder>

It depends on what the corps think that they're going to get out of it
versus what they think they're going to lose. How many corps now have a web
page that they don't know what to do with because they were afraid that
their competitor would do it first?

Look at companies going into China, the Holy Grail of developing nations
for corps. Everyone wants in because all of these billion Chinese are going
to buy Nikes and Windows 2000. Everybody tries to forget all of the
restrictions that the government puts on these companies. Hell, they don't
have the rights that they have in the US, let alone extraterritoriality.

Ford is willing to bet billions to build a plant there because they want to
do it before GM and Toyota. Their willing to bet that China won't
confiscate everything again, or have a civil war,or any of the other dozens
of scenarios that could crash the Chinese econonmy the same way that the
other Southeast Asia economies did. Who do you think they based their
crony-cpaitalism system on? Look what happened to Japan, they have a 7 year
recession. No one can say for certain exactly what goes on in China,
because acon info is a state secret!

A lot of the time its the country that needs the corp, but there are plenty
of times that the corp needs the country. Can't grow those profits without
new markets...

Sommers
Homepage comming soon!
Message no. 25
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:07:34 -0400
Sommers wrote:
>
> Look at companies going into China, the Holy Grail of developing nations
> for corps. Everyone wants in because all of these billion Chinese are going
> to buy Nikes and Windows 2000.

Valid in principle; invalid in scale. SOME of those billion Chinese are
going to buy Nikes and Windows 2000; certainly many millions, enough to
make it worthwhile for companies; but the vast majority of the country is
agricultural, developing slowly if at all, and would only deal with Nike
and Microsoft if they bought rice or sold oxen.


> Ford is willing to bet billions to build a plant there because they want to
> do it before GM and Toyota. Their willing to bet that China won't
> confiscate everything again, or have a civil war,or any of the other dozens
> of scenarios that could crash the Chinese econonmy the same way that the
> other Southeast Asia economies did.

Moving ahead to the mid-21st again -- what's the picture on extranational
corps in China? We know what happened to China itself; it fragmented
under a bunch of different warlords. And we know they've got their own
companies on the inside, some of which are ripening and one of which has
burst out of the shell. But what about Ares? And Renraku, and
Aztechnology, and the others? DO they have a presence there? Or were
they booted by the government and triads in favor of local entrepeneurs?


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 26
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:39:24 -0400
At 10:41 AM 9/22/98 -0400, you wrote:

>That does brin up an interesting point in SR3.
>
>Spoiler for Blood in the Boardroom!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>One of the big tracks in BitB shows the downside of extra-territoriality
>and not reporting to anyone. The american guy in Fuchi (blanking on his
>name) spends about 2 years plotting around with Fuchi and selling off
>everything that he can so that he can create Novatech. He could do this
>because no-one was watching. If they were still under UCAS law, he would
>have had to provide details on his stock dealings and the japanese would
>have found out in plenty of time to stop him. At the very least it would
>have made it a lot harder to do.

Richard Villiers also did it the smart way, via holding companies and
shells and whatnot, because almost certainly people *were* watching. Also
remember that most of the purchases wouldn't have fallen under corporate
(Fuchi) extraterritoriality. Novatech Holdings didn't fall under those
rules back then, it fell under the same rules that any UCAS company would.
So it would have had to reported those acquisitions.

No, Villiers pulled it off not becuase no one was watching (which is
patently not true) but because he was able to take advantage of every
loophole, ploy and gambit available to him.

Aside from Lofwyr, Villiers and Knight are easily the two most devious
corporate shark CEO's in 2060. Both were essentially able to connive their
way into their current positions with sheer guile, bloody-mindedness and
raw intelligence.

Erik J.


http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/dungeon/480/index.html
The Reality Check for a Fictional World
Message no. 27
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:27:40 -0400
At 12:40 PM 9-22-98 -0400, you wrote:
>On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Starjammer wrote:
>
>-><Snip me listing some consequences of corporate censure.>
><snip you..snipping him..sniping...>
>->As for the oil producers, I do see them having to play the megas' game.
>->After all, oil isn't the energy staple in the 21st c. that it has been in
>->the 20th, and you can't eat it.
>
> Oil may not be the energy staple, but where do you think all those
>chemicals for plastic come from? Gasoline is porbably more a byproduct in
>2060 than it is now.

In 2060? Synthetics or bio-tech. For example, I've heard of at least one
project to bioengineer corn plants to produce strands of raw bio-plastic in
place of kernels. And that doesn't even touch on nanotech or smart molecules.

>Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,

Starjammer | "Would it help if we sacrificed a
goat?"
starjammer@**********.com | -- Street sam "Crusher" Carlson
to mage
Marietta, GA | Straight Blue, on a really bad day
Message no. 28
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:14:20 -0400
At 01:07 PM 9-22-98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Moving ahead to the mid-21st again -- what's the picture on extranational
>corps in China? We know what happened to China itself; it fragmented
>under a bunch of different warlords. And we know they've got their own
>companies on the inside, some of which are ripening and one of which has
>burst out of the shell. But what about Ares? And Renraku, and
>Aztechnology, and the others? DO they have a presence there? Or were
>they booted by the government and triads in favor of local entrepeneurs?
>
> - Steve Eley
> sfeley@***.net

Well, let's try a hypothetical: Say you're a chinese warlord-wannabe.
You've got access to a fair number of troops, but you need weapons, money,
and tech to pull off a land-grab. The only coin you've got to pay is that
you can do favors for whoever helped you once you get into power.

Who do you think might back you? ;)

Yeah, I'd say the corps are in there somewhere...
Starjammer | "Would it help if we sacrificed a
goat?"
starjammer@**********.com | -- Street sam "Crusher" Carlson
to mage
Marietta, GA | Straight Blue, on a really bad day
Message no. 29
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:33:18 -0400
On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Starjammer wrote:

->At 12:40 PM 9-22-98 -0400, you wrote:
->>On Tue, 22 Sep 1998, Starjammer wrote:
->>
->>-><Snip me listing some consequences of corporate censure.>
->><snip you..snipping him..sniping...>
->>->As for the oil producers, I do see them having to play the megas' game.
->>->After all, oil isn't the energy staple in the 21st c. that it has been in
->>->the 20th, and you can't eat it.
->>
->> Oil may not be the energy staple, but where do you think all those
->>chemicals for plastic come from? Gasoline is porbably more a byproduct in
->>2060 than it is now.
->
->In 2060? Synthetics or bio-tech. For example, I've heard of at least one
->project to bioengineer corn plants to produce strands of raw bio-plastic in
->place of kernels. And that doesn't even touch on nanotech or smart molecules.

Considering how rare real food is (like, corn), and that
synthetics must be made of something (I don't think we can feasably
explain throwing a bunch of rocks into a machine and coming out with
synthetic chemicals) I still think oil is important in the Sixth world.
After all, where does all that pollution come from we've all been reading
about throughout the history of the game if the corps/govt are using corn,
synthetics from rocks and nanotech-smart molecules to make stuff out of?

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 30
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:56:51 -0400
At 02:33 PM 9/22/98 -0400, you wrote:

>->In 2060? Synthetics or bio-tech. For example, I've heard of at least one
>->project to bioengineer corn plants to produce strands of raw bio-plastic in
>->place of kernels. And that doesn't even touch on nanotech or smart
molecules.
>
> Considering how rare real food is (like, corn), and that
>synthetics must be made of something (I don't think we can feasably
>explain throwing a bunch of rocks into a machine and coming out with
>synthetic chemicals) I still think oil is important in the Sixth world.
>After all, where does all that pollution come from we've all been reading
>about throughout the history of the game if the corps/govt are using corn,
>synthetics from rocks and nanotech-smart molecules to make stuff out of?

First I'm sure that people still eat a lot of corn based products, as well
as soy based. Look at a food label and see if it has corn starch or syrup
in it. An awful lot do. And soy and corn are real food, its just processed
a lot to make it look and (theoretically) taste like other kinds of food.

Ever wonder WHY people eat so much soy protein food? Maybe its because the
corn and other grains like that are being used to grow all of that
bio-plastic, and is being used in multi-fuel mixtures to cut with gas. I'm
sure they still use gas, but not so much of it anymore.

Sommers
Homepage comming soon!
Message no. 31
From: Micheal Feeney <Starrngr@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:08:22 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-22 12:10:02 EDT, you write:

<< As for the oil producers, I do see them having to play the megas' game.
After all, oil isn't the energy staple in the 21st c. that it has been in
the 20th, and you can't eat it. Honestly, I see a lot of middle eastern
countries having hard times in the SR future. The oil market starts
declining as deregulation and improved technology make nuke power and
electric vehicles more attractive, and the Resource Rush starts fulfilling
the world's shrinking oil requirements from other sources. Then the Crash
of '29 wipes out the banks and the holdings that those countries have
already built up over the course of a century of oil dealings. So you're
left with countries who need customers just at the moment when their
particular product is at its lowest demand in many years. Ouch! >>

Oil is needed for a lot of other things than motor oil. Its needed for
plastics (which now will be reaching an all time high) lubrications, fabrics,
and a thousand and one other products. Short form result: People not burning
as much gas doesnt affect their power base that much. The world still needs
oil, and they are still the ones who have control of it.
Message no. 32
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:12:18 -0700
>You are right in that many countries would not be able to withstand that
>kind of pressure. But there should be a good many that could do to
>ethical, cultural or religious reason. Shadowrun already has some, Tir
>Tairngire, Tir Na Nog, Tibet the Awakened Lands and the NANs all have
>restrictions. And I cant see the AAAs pissing off any of the major oil
>producing countries in the middle east. They need that oil. And those

Why would a megacorp need oil? With fusion reactors, oil and fossil fuels
are relics. You may need drastically smaller amounts for plastics, but
nothing like former production.

Yes, I figure with the collapse of the Oil Cartel and oil as a major
industry, those desert countries get to go back to being what they were ...

>Mike

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 33
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:27:47 -0400
Micheal Feeney wrote:
>
> Oil is needed for a lot of other things than motor oil. Its needed for
> plastics (which now will be reaching an all time high) lubrications, fabrics,
> and a thousand and one other products. Short form result: People not burning
> as much gas doesnt affect their power base that much. The world still needs
> oil, and they are still the ones who have control of it.

You're right, but the amount of petroleum needed for those sorts of things
isn't nearly at the same level of volume as the petroleum needed for power
generation and vehicle fuel. (And I do notice all the "serious" vehicles
in Rigger 2 still burn gas.) I don't know the numbers, but I'd *guess*
that if all you want to do is make plastics and grease, you could get by
-- in North America, anyway -- with the oil in Texas and Alaska. Yes,
this means negotiating with the CAS and NAN (who's up north there?
Tsimshian?) but that may be more practical than dealing with the Middle
East.

And if that doesn't work either, there's always shale oil. There's more
petroleum locked up in rocks than there is in liquid form.. Right now
(1990's) it costs more to extract it than the oil is worth, but given an
economic incentive and a few more decades of research, that may change.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 34
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:31:14 -0400
Adam Getchell wrote:
>
> Why would a megacorp need oil? With fusion reactors, oil and fossil fuels
> are relics. You may need drastically smaller amounts for plastics, but
> nothing like former production.

Can *you* fit a fusion reactor on a Yellowjacket? Or a Harley Scorpion?
(And if you could, *would* you?) >8->

Electric vehicles are well and good, but even in SR they've got their
limitations. For serious power, internal combustion still seems to be the
way to go.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 35
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:58:32 -0700
:Adam Getchell wrote:
:>
:> Why would a megacorp need oil? With fusion reactors, oil and fossil
fuels
:> are relics. You may need drastically smaller amounts for plastics, but
:> nothing like former production.
:
:Can *you* fit a fusion reactor on a Yellowjacket? Or a Harley Scorpion?
:(And if you could, *would* you?) >8->
:
:Electric vehicles are well and good, but even in SR they've got their
:limitations. For serious power, internal combustion still seems to be
the
:way to go.


With enough power (like the surplus power produced off-peak by a
fusion plant), couldn't you SYNTHASIZE a fuel? At the very least,
hydrolysis produces hydrogen and oxygen, which would be useful starting
components, and nifty fuels themselves for some uses. And fusion plants
would do a LOT of hydrolysis, just to get deuterium in useful amounts.
They need not burn ALL the excess in gas / steam turbines.

Mongoose
Message no. 36
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:14:50 -0700
>Can *you* fit a fusion reactor on a Yellowjacket? Or a Harley Scorpion?
>(And if you could, *would* you?) >8->

Unlike fission nuclear power, there is no minimum critical mass for fusion.
That means, conceivably, yes it's possible. And if I were the U.S. Army
designing a helicopter gunship -- well, first I'd make it an aerodyne, yes,
I would do so.

>Electric vehicles are well and good, but even in SR they've got their
>limitations. For serious power, internal combustion still seems to be the
>way to go.

Methanol. Fuel cells. Magnetohydrodynamics. Stirling Engines. High density
batteries. Brown's gas.

Given a large supply of electricity from fusion power plants, any of the
above would make fine replacements for IC. Many of them (fuel cells and
MHD) even have higher power densities than gasoline.

Get with the century. ;-)

I'd suspect Harley's still use gas due to nostalgia, more than anything else.

Oh, by the way, the U.S Army is going to an all-electric Main Battle Tank
in the 2005-2015 area. Everything from the drive to the weaponry will be
electrically powered. Yes, I'd say that means we've got a good handle on
rail guns and electric propulsion.

> - Steve Eley

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 37
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:22:12 -0400
At 01:14 PM 9/22/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Methanol. Fuel cells. Magnetohydrodynamics. Stirling Engines. High density
>batteries. Brown's gas.
>
>Given a large supply of electricity from fusion power plants, any of the
>above would make fine replacements for IC. Many of them (fuel cells and
>MHD) even have higher power densities than gasoline.

Most of those still have a slower acceleration rate than IC. And as of
right now fuel cells don't have a higher power density than gasoline. They
also pollute more than gas engines. If you compare the fuel itself fule
cells are the champs, but after you throw in all the mechanics and safety
features for the fuel cell, gas still wins. Because you can make them very
small and light with the same protection that makes the cells a lot bigger.

Of course, better tech in the future could change that, but as of right
now, give me an IC baby!

Sommers
Homepage comming soon!
Message no. 38
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:29:54 -0700
> With enough power (like the surplus power produced off-peak by a
>fusion plant), couldn't you SYNTHASIZE a fuel? At the very least,
>hydrolysis produces hydrogen and oxygen, which would be useful starting
>components, and nifty fuels themselves for some uses. And fusion plants
>would do a LOT of hydrolysis, just to get deuterium in useful amounts.
>They need not burn ALL the excess in gas / steam turbines.

Right. You could run a simple hydrolysis to run an H2-O2 fuel cell, or make
a Brown's gas.

Actually, an MHD plant would be more efficient than IC (60-80% achievable
vs. combustion's paltry 6-15%). The technology to control fusion reactions
(which occur at millions of degrees) could be cheaply downscaled to control
temperatures of a few ten-thousands of Kelvin that occur in the MHD cycle.

Deuterium is present in about 1 in 5000 parts of hydrogen, so mass
separation would have to be done for a fusion reactor using the
Deuterium-Deuterium cycle. The Deuterium-He3 cycle is a bit more efficient
but requires Tritium, which can be manufactured as a byproduct.

One can skip deuterium entirely and go for the proton-proton cycle (also
known as the Carbon-Nitrogen-Oxygen cycle in large stars) but the Lawson's
criterion is two orders of magnitude higher. So for practical purposes we'd
use D-D, D-T, or D-He3.

>Mongoose

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 39
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 16:19:16 -0400
At 02:33 PM 9-22-98 -0400, you wrote:

<More snippage on oil and where plastic comes from>

>->In 2060? Synthetics or bio-tech. For example, I've heard of at least one
>->project to bioengineer corn plants to produce strands of raw bio-plastic in
>->place of kernels. And that doesn't even touch on nanotech or smart
molecules.
>
> Considering how rare real food is (like, corn), and that
>synthetics must be made of something (I don't think we can feasably
>explain throwing a bunch of rocks into a machine and coming out with
>synthetic chemicals) I still think oil is important in the Sixth world.
>After all, where does all that pollution come from we've all been reading
>about throughout the history of the game if the corps/govt are using corn,
>synthetics from rocks and nanotech-smart molecules to make stuff out of?
>
>Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,

I just threw out the corn as an example. I'm sure that in 2060 there's
lots of different ways to string together long-chain molecules. And I
didn't say they didn't burn petrochem, just that they don't necessarily
have to make it from oil anymore.

And speaking of throwing rocks into a machine, there actually are processes
that can extract petroleum products from shale and coal... ;)


Starjammer | "Would it help if we sacrificed a
goat?"
starjammer@**********.com | -- Street sam "Crusher" Carlson
to mage
Marietta, GA | Straight Blue, on a really bad day
Message no. 40
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:42:07 -0700
>Most of those still have a slower acceleration rate than IC. And as of
>right now fuel cells don't have a higher power density than gasoline. They
>also pollute more than gas engines. If you compare the fuel itself fule

Let's see: the byproducts of fuel cell combustion of H2 and O2 is: water.

What were you saying about pollution?

Why are they being used in German submarines, if that's true?

A fuel cell is otherwise known as a closed-cycle plant. Meaning that,
unlike IC, it doesn't require inputs from the environment. That is why they
are used on spacecraft and submarines.

>Of course, better tech in the future could change that, but as of right
>now, give me an IC baby!

Once you have to start paying 10-15$ per gallon of gas due to shrinking
supplies and reduced production I think you might change your mind.

>Sommers
>Homepage comming soon!


--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 41
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 17:11:06 -0400
At 01:42 PM 9/22/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>Most of those still have a slower acceleration rate than IC. And as of
>>right now fuel cells don't have a higher power density than gasoline. They
>>also pollute more than gas engines. If you compare the fuel itself fule
>
>Let's see: the byproducts of fuel cell combustion of H2 and O2 is: water.
>
>What were you saying about pollution?

I have to go look up the article tonight but the problem was incomplete
cycles and how much waste products were created from that. I think ozone
was one of the big ones in there, but there were some others.

>Why are they being used in German submarines, if that's true?

Didn't know about that. Any information you can give or point too?

>A fuel cell is otherwise known as a closed-cycle plant. Meaning that,
>unlike IC, it doesn't require inputs from the environment. That is why they
>are used on spacecraft and submarines.

That just means that they don't need to, say, suck oxygen through a
compressor to give the fuel an oxidizer. There are still byproducts that
are either stored or ejected from the system.

>>Of course, better tech in the future could change that, but as of right
>>now, give me an IC baby!
>
>Once you have to start paying 10-15$ per gallon of gas due to shrinking
>supplies and reduced production I think you might change your mind.

Possibly. Depends on when the decreased supplies hit. A lot of the
predictions from the 60's and 70's said that we would be running out by
now. Hasn't happened yet, because of better recovery tech and new fields.
And there are still a lot to be used in the eastern and southern parts of
Russia after the mideast starts drying up. Cutting the gas by 50% with
ethanol from corn would reduce demand some, as would creating bio-plastics
from corn and other plants.

But as for the fuel cell, it still needs some work. Theoretically, economy
is great. But the specific impulse of the system still sucks. You don't get
the acceleration that you're used to out of your IC car. Which is why a lot
of comapnies are looking at hybrid fuel cell/IC cars. One for cruising,
another for the starting and acceleration.

Sommers
Homepage comming soon!
Message no. 42
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 14:47:38 -0700
>I have to go look up the article tonight but the problem was incomplete
>cycles and how much waste products were created from that. I think ozone
>was one of the big ones in there, but there were some others.

The Proton Exchange Membrane fuel cell uses gaseous hydrogen stored in a
tank. The anode draws off electrons producing electricity, and the
resulting H+ ions are combined with oxygen producing a minute amount of
water -- the only byproduct of the process.

A PEM fuel cell is two to three times more energy efficient than IC.

The drawbacks are that fuel cells are virtually hand made, thus they are
about 100 times more expensive than piston engines -- currently. There is a
consortium of which Lawrence Livermore labs is a part of that is trying to
bring fuel cells into the mass produced age, which would drive prices
pretty far down. Lifecycle costs for fuel cells are on par with lead-acid
batteries.

Today we would probably use natural gas methane to produce hydrogen. With
fusion power, we can use electrolysis and so have a 100% emissions-free
power source.

>Didn't know about that. Any information you can give or point too?

I'll have to dig up my old Proceedings articles. It may be the Type 209
Submarine produced for the (West) German navy, but I don't remember offhand.

>But as for the fuel cell, it still needs some work. Theoretically, economy
>is great. But the specific impulse of the system still sucks. You don't get
>the acceleration that you're used to out of your IC car. Which is why a lot

I'm sure with decades of work you can get a pretty good specific impulse.
The specific impulse of an electromagnetic motor could be much higher than
IC, given efficient batteries/fuel cells.

>of comapnies are looking at hybrid fuel cell/IC cars. One for cruising,
>another for the starting and acceleration.

UC Davis has a design that uses a small 20 HP gas engine and the rest
electrical engines. Most of the power ends up being supplied by the
electric motors.

>Sommers



--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 43
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:19:46 +1000
> You are right in that many countries would not be able to withstand
> that kind of pressure. But there should be a good many that could do
> to ethical, cultural or religious reason. Shadowrun already has some,
> Tir Tairngire, Tir Na Nog, Tibet the Awakened Lands and the NANs all
> have restrictions. And I cant see the AAAs pissing off any of the
> major oil producing countries in the middle east. They need that oil.
> And those countries wont give up any sovereignty. Look at New Zealand
> and Australia telling the US and France they did not want nuclear
> weapons tested or near their territory. Just because you threaten me
> with a big stick does not mean I will back down.
>
> Mike
>
The only problem with that, Mike, is that in our time, it's a big stick.
In the Shadowrun universe it's a big stick that they're gonna use and no
one else is going to get involved unless it impacts them directly. The
only nation that has SUCCESSFULLY managed to nationalise all business
assets is Aztlan - and they got a big stick shoved up their nose for it
(check out the Aztlan sourcebook), even with the backing of
Aztechnology. Aztlan and Aztechnology had to end up making a LOT of
concessions outside of their personal playground so they could be God
Almight INSIDE their sandbox. If even one of the biggest megas in the
world, who basically OWN their own country, can't entirely get away with
pulling such a move, what makes you think that any of the other poxy
little countries are going to try it - or at least get away with it?

I think, what it all boils down to is this - sure, you can forbid
foreign ownership inside your country. And sure you can refuse to grant
the megas extraterritoriality. But you're going to get fragged OUTSIDE
your country if you do and there aren't that many places that could
successfully pull it off. Now, if all the countries in the world pulled
together and nationalised everything, that would work - but can you
imagine the public outcry? And if one of the more democratic nations
(UCAS, CAS) tried to pull a stunt like that, even if they just limited
themselves to nationalising foreign owned (read megacorporate)
businesses, they're still going to get pasted by the populace. After
all, who owns the media?

Doc'

.sig Sauer
Message no. 44
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:41:44 +1000
> If one corporation did this in a country with five or six big
> corps, it wouldn't faze them. If five or six did it... maybe. Most
> of
> the biggest economic countries besides USA & USSR (Britain, France,
> Germany, Spain, China/maybe) might be able to withstand the pressure
> to
> allow megacorps to extraterritorialize. Each government freezes the
> assets of that corporation within their territorial boundaries
> (thereby
> allowing them to continue to collect taxes on it), file charges for
> laying
> off population without due cause (and, since it's that government's
> laws...guess who'll win), then you'll have the suits from the
> ex-workers,
> also being tried in that country's courts, which will also probably
> win.
> Government isn't helpless... they can push back. Imagine how
> expensive
> lawsuits from every employee, lawsuits from the government, and still
> paying property taxes would cost the company.
>
> Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
> the difficult I do all day long,
> the impossible only during the week,
> and miracles performed on an as-needed
> basis....
>
> Now tell me, what was your problem?
>
Lawsuits? On a megacorp? Guess how many of them are gonna pay up in a
country in which they can no longer operate? If the government tried to
pull a stunt like that then any good megacorp is just gonna drop
operations in the country (which, according to your thesis, they can no
longer carry out anyway) and go to the corp court and get the other
megas to boycott the country. Believe me, ALL the megas are gonna
support them on something like that - that kind of action sets a VERY
DANGEROUS precedent as far as they're concerned. And when that happens,
unless the country's actually owned by another mega, the economy goes
belly up. Not even England (well, maybe England, I don't know enough
about them) or France or the UCAS etc. etc. is going to survive that -
not without knuckling under at least.

Doc'

.sig Sauer
Message no. 45
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:50:38 +1000
Erik J writes:
> Aside from Lofwyr, Villiers and Knight are easily the two most devious
> corporate shark CEO's in 2060. Both were essentially able to
> connive their
> way into their current positions with sheer guile, bloody-mindedness and
> raw intelligence.

And, in the case of Knight, nova-hot programming ability, allowing him to
pull off the Nanosecond Buyout.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 46
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:09:53 +1000
> Erik J writes:
> > Aside from Lofwyr, Villiers and Knight are easily the two most
> devious
> > corporate shark CEO's in 2060. Both were essentially able to
> > connive their
> > way into their current positions with sheer guile, bloody-mindedness
> and
> > raw intelligence.
>
> And, in the case of Knight, nova-hot programming ability, allowing him
> to
> pull off the Nanosecond Buyout.
>
> --
> .sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
>
Uh, I think it's been discussed in several Shadowrun products that
Knight himself was never a decker/programmer - he just had all the
techspecs on everything etc. and that some other people actually did the
programming. (Remember, he was an army major IN CHARGE of Echo Mirage,
not a decker himself - that is, if we believe the Gavilan theory). I
could be wrong, of course, but I'm pretty sure I read SOMETHING that at
the very least implies that. I know that Dunkelzahn had to help him set
it up - in all likelihood, Knight went to the Big D and said, "Here,
I'll show you mine if you let me borrow some drek-hot programmers and
equipment." or the like. Which is not to say Knight isn't brilliant in
his own fields.

Doc'

.sig Sauer
Message no. 47
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:51:48 -0400
At 04:09 PM 9/23/98 +1000, you wrote:

>Uh, I think it's been discussed in several Shadowrun products that
>Knight himself was never a decker/programmer - he just had all the
>techspecs on everything etc. and that some other people actually did the
>programming. (Remember, he was an army major IN CHARGE of Echo Mirage,
>not a decker himself - that is, if we believe the Gavilan theory). I
>could be wrong, of course, but I'm pretty sure I read SOMETHING that at
>the very least implies that. I know that Dunkelzahn had to help him set
>it up - in all likelihood, Knight went to the Big D and said, "Here,
>I'll show you mine if you let me borrow some drek-hot programmers and
>equipment." or the like. Which is not to say Knight isn't brilliant in
>his own fields.

<Spoiler for BitB>










In the history part of the Ares/Cross Tech buyout it blatantly states what
happened. Damien Knight is Gavilan, and when he left Echo Mirage he took
one of the deckers with him - Lucien Cross. Knight thought up the idea,
Cross actually programmed it. I don't remember for certain, but the Big D
might have put up the money for it.

The reason that Cross hates him is because Knight screwed him over, like he
tries to do with quite a few of his business partners.

Sommers
Homepage comming soon!
Message no. 48
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 12:47:56 -0400
At 02:47 PM 9/22/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>I have to go look up the article tonight but the problem was incomplete
>>cycles and how much waste products were created from that. I think ozone
>>was one of the big ones in there, but there were some others.

Went home and got the article last night, which is a sumation of a study
done by Volvo engineers on the feasability of fuel cells in cars.

>The Proton Exchange Membrane fuel cell uses gaseous hydrogen stored in a
>tank. The anode draws off electrons producing electricity, and the
>resulting H+ ions are combined with oxygen producing a minute amount of
>water -- the only byproduct of the process.

Good description, we both are talking about the smae thing.

>A PEM fuel cell is two to three times more energy efficient than IC.

The number they quote is that theoretically a pure hydrogen fuel cell would
use 35% less fuel than an IC engine that provides the same amount of work.

>The drawbacks are that fuel cells are virtually hand made, thus they are
>about 100 times more expensive than piston engines -- currently. There is a
>consortium of which Lawrence Livermore labs is a part of that is trying to
>bring fuel cells into the mass produced age, which would drive prices
>pretty far down. Lifecycle costs for fuel cells are on par with lead-acid
>batteries.

That was one of the points in the article also. They quoted a price of
$15000 and up. Of course, I agree with you that with mass production and
more refined designs this will drop down to the equivelent of an IC engine
today.

>Today we would probably use natural gas methane to produce hydrogen. With
>fusion power, we can use electrolysis and so have a 100% emissions-free
>power source.

This is where they had the problem. You assume that with a lot of
electricity, it would be easy to make hydrogen and then you use that for
the fuel. There point was that hydrogen is very difficult to store in pure
form, and also very dangerous. So most designs use a methanol converter to
break hydrocarbon fuel (ie gas, petrol, etc) into hydrogen and CO2. With
this system, the cell uses slightly more fuel than an equivelent IC engine,
but gets 80 miles to the gallon.

>>of comapnies are looking at hybrid fuel cell/IC cars. One for cruising,
>>another for the starting and acceleration.
>
>UC Davis has a design that uses a small 20 HP gas engine and the rest
>electrical engines. Most of the power ends up being supplied by the
>electric motors.

The additional wait of the fuel cell (about 180 lbs, 82 kilos) and of a
supplemntary battery system necessary to overcome its slow response to
driver input diminish efficiency. With the extra weight, IC produce less
CO2 than the fuel cell. However, I was wrong about the other part. They do
make less smof forming gasses than IC engines. Unfortunately, it doesn't
say what the efficiency drops to compared to the IC engine.

What it means is that for right now it still has a long way to go, and its
future to Shadowrun depend on what happens latter down the line, and what
gets lost in the crash. If they can't figure out a good way to store it,
and a good way to bring the costs down, it just isn't going to happen.

Sommers
Homepage comming soon!
Message no. 49
From: "Ratinac, Rand (NSW)" <RRatinac@*****.REDCROSS.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Seretech and Shiawase decisions
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:44:22 +1000
> >Uh, I think it's been discussed in several Shadowrun products that
> >Knight himself was never a decker/programmer - he just had all the
> >techspecs on everything etc. and that some other people actually did
> the
> >programming.
>
> <Spoiler for BitB>
>
Ah-hah! I knew I read it somewhere!

*Doc' parades his vindication around like a cheap Hawaiian shirt*

Doc'

.sig Sauer

Further Reading

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