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Message no. 1
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Serious Barrier Rating Question
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:29:52 -0500
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This is somewhat a tangent to another thread, but I wanted to open it
up as a seperate discussion.

What would the Barrier Rating of a metahuman be, for purposes of
Firing Through the metahuman to hit a target behind him/her?

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--
-- Paul Gettle, #970 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
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Message no. 2
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Serious Barrier Rating Question
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 20:41:26 +0100
According to Paul Gettle, at 11:29 on 12 Nov 98, the word on the street was...

> What would the Barrier Rating of a metahuman be, for purposes of
> Firing Through the metahuman to hit a target behind him/her?

About 3 or 4, I think, based on the Power Levels of typical SR weapons.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
He likes to sleep. Sometimes he has good dreams.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Serious Barrier Rating Question
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 14:52:35 EST
In a message dated 11/12/98 11:31:47 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
RunnerPaul@*****.COM writes:

> What would the Barrier Rating of a metahuman be, for purposes of
> Firing Through the metahuman to hit a target behind him/her?

Their body attribute plus any armor they may be wearing ...

-Mike
Message no. 4
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Serious Barrier Rating Question
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:01:18 -0500
>Their body attribute plus any armor they may be wearing ...
I had to disagree with this one. Trolls are tought don't
be me wrong. But under this statement....
Troll Body 11 + Jack (5/3) = Barrier Rating 16
Now I'm guessing it's much harder to shoot through
a troll then a human. More bone and dermal deposits to
hit. And I don't have the tables with me...but what substance
has a barrier rating of 16? Reinforced Steel?
This formual isn't bad for average humans, but seems
to break down after that.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633
Message no. 5
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Serious Barrier Rating Question
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 20:24:19 -0500
Lehlan--

>Now I'm guessing it's much harder to shoot through
>a troll then a human. More bone and dermal deposits to
>hit. And I don't have the tables with me...but what substance
>has a barrier rating of 16? Reinforced Steel?
>This formula isn't bad for average humans, but seems
>to break down after that.

Wrong comparison. The barrier rating of a 1" thick steel
plate and a 2' thick Troll (including armor jacket) should be about
equal. Remember, bullets do most of their damage by expending their
energy inside the body. That's their purpose.
In fact, I'd say that bullets do not generally "blow through"
a body with sufficient force to affect anyone or anything on the
other side, except when Deadly damage is caused. The exceptions would
be flechettes and AP or APDS rounds. These, however, are still slowed
by passing through a body.
Naturally, my comments are aimed primarily for the Shadowrun
game system, not real life. In real life, bullets can bounce off of
pressed cardboard ceiling tiles... and go through wooden beams as if
through empty air.

Shadowmage
Message no. 6
From: Bruce <gyro@********.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: Serious Barrier Rating Question
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:39:15 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 12 November 1998 09:57
Subject: Re: Serious Barrier Rating Question


>>Their body attribute plus any armor they may be wearing ...
>I had to disagree with this one. Trolls are tought don't
>be me wrong. But under this statement....
>Troll Body 11 + Jack (5/3) = Barrier Rating 16
>Now I'm guessing it's much harder to shoot through
>a troll then a human. More bone and dermal deposits to
>hit. And I don't have the tables with me...but what substance
>has a barrier rating of 16? Reinforced Steel?
>This formual isn't bad for average humans, but seems
>to break down after that.


Suggestions for shooting through

The normal rules for shooting people should be used. If the Power of
the attack exceeds the targets Body and deals a Serious wound or above
it should
go straight through. The Power level of the attack that continues to
points behind
can be simply [Original Power minus Body]

I dont think the barrier rating rules where designed to shoot through
people. Besides if you did shot through, how would you calculate
damage?

Also, while AP and APDS will be more likely to shoot through, it is
also
more likely to cause the kind of damage needed :)

¥0.02

BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>
*Executive Engineer* *FrontLine Games*
Yo soy un disco quebrado
Yo tengo chicle en cerebro
sm:)e
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Serious Barrier Rating Question
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:17:33 +0100
According to Tarek Okail, at 20:24 on 12 Nov 98, the word on the street was...

> In fact, I'd say that bullets do not generally "blow through"
> a body with sufficient force to affect anyone or anything on the
> other side, except when Deadly damage is caused. The exceptions would
> be flechettes and AP or APDS rounds. These, however, are still slowed
> by passing through a body.

Naturally. However, I'm now looking at Phoenix Command's Advanced Damage
Tables supplement, and it doesn't take a weapon with an extremely high
Penetration rating in that game to shoot through a target, even in places
like the upper chest/heart area (only 3.9, while for instance an M16A2 has
a Penetration of 17 at point-blank range, dropping to 3.4 only at 800
yards). Things like hip and shoulder sockets are a different matter, but
on the whole any rifle will shoot through the target in PC at most ranges.
According to the book, these values are all based on computer simulations
of the human body. (However, don't compare these values to the armor
ratings given in the main PC rulebook -- those are in serious need of
adjustment.)

Translating this to SR, this means that most weapons would be able to
shoot through a target, except perhaps hold-out pistols. Unfortunately,
the Power Level difference between pistols and rifles is too small
(leaving out my eternal gripe, heavy pistols, here) to really simulate
this in SR, I think. Still, assigning a Barrier Rating of 4 to a human
(elf/dwarf) body sounds about right to me, maybe 5 for an ork and 7 for a
troll?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
He likes to sleep. Sometimes he has good dreams.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: Cernunnos Morrigu <cmorrigu@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Serious Barrier Rating Question
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 11:50:17 -0500
On 11/13/98, at 12:17 PM, Gurth wrote:

>this in SR, I think. Still, assigning a Barrier Rating of 4 to a human
>(elf/dwarf) body sounds about right to me, maybe 5 for an ork and 7 for a
>troll?

How about just simplifying it to (body+armor)/2?

That should work out to about the same...

Back to biz,
-CM
---
Cernunnos Morrigu | "Summer, check that door!"
cmorrigu@********.net | **BOOM**
http://members.xoom.com/cmorrigu/sr/ | "Ok, check the next one, too."
Message no. 9
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Serious Barrier Rating Question
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:28:35 EST
In a message dated 11/12/98 3:03:42 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
DeckerL@******.COM writes:

> >Their body attribute plus any armor they may be wearing ...
> I had to disagree with this one. Trolls are tought don't
> be me wrong. But under this statement....
> Troll Body 11 + Jack (5/3) = Barrier Rating 16
> Now I'm guessing it's much harder to shoot through
> a troll then a human. More bone and dermal deposits to
> hit. And I don't have the tables with me...but what substance
> has a barrier rating of 16? Reinforced Steel?
> This formual isn't bad for average humans, but seems
> to break down after that.
>
True, but unless you have something universal for everyone then it breaks down
into all sorts of fun for number crunchers like myself.

As for a troll not having a barrier rating of 16 ... consider this ... in
addition to the armor which hinders ballistics on the way in and way out ...
there is also the interval in which the 'shot' passes through the human body,
which acts as a sponge with regards to the kinetic energy of the 'shot.'

That's why I said Body + armor ...

-Mike
Message no. 10
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Serious Barrier Rating Question
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:39:49 -0500
True, but unless you have something universal for everyone then
it breaks down
into all sorts of fun for number crunchers like myself.
<Snip>
>As for a troll not having a barrier rating of 16 ... consider this ... in
>addition to the armor which hinders ballistics on the way in and
>way out ...
>there is also the interval in which the 'shot' passes through the
>human body,
>which acts as a sponge with regards to the kinetic energy of the
'>shot.'
>That's why I said Body + armor ...
I'm not arguing with the body + armor. It doesn't seem like
too bad a formula for the average human (body 3) and
1 point of armor. But it breaks down at the high end.
How about (Body + Armor)/2. That means for the above
case they'd have a rating of 2, and for the troll 8.
This is the problem with realism and the abstract system
of shadowrun. It depends entirely on the type of gun your
packing and the ammo. Some rounds are designed not too
blow through period. I can punch a whole through a person
with a .22 if I hit them right, but it won't have any power when
it exits. With a .45 or .9mm, it's a different story. (And I am
far from a gun expert).
In my games I usually tend to ignore the "punch through" person
effect, except in special cases, or to add color to the story.
If a player is trying to do it, I usually force a called shot, and have
the special effect be, passed through target.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633
Message no. 11
From: "Jason I. Gonding" <templar@****.NET>
Subject: Re: Serious Barrier Rating Question
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 00:52:05 -0500
Paul Gettle wrote:

> What would the Barrier Rating of a metahuman be, for purposes of
> Firing Through the metahuman to hit a target behind him/her?

In GURPS (IIRC) the armor value of a human shield is equal to half their
health.

In SR I'd allow a barrier rating of 1/2 the body attribute + armor. I
agree with Gurth that it shouldn't be more than 3 or 4 before armor.
Your average innocent bystander is going to have a body of 3 and _might_
be wearing armored clothing (ballistic 3):
(3/2 = 1.5 rounded down to 1) + 3 = 4. Even an Ork with a body of 6 and
a secure longcoat is only going to yeild a total of 7. Also, I'd apply
armor degredation rules, since the body is going to get chewed up pretty
good.

With regards to the mention of using a body 11 troll as a human (trog)
shield, the character in question had better be one nasty motherf@&#er
being able to manhandle a body 11 troll - if the troll's alive he's going
to have one hell of a time keeping the bullets between the troll &
himself; and if the troll's dead that's a severe encumberance.

Just my $.02

Jason
--
**************************Sic Semper Tyranids!************************
Jason I. Gonding <templar@****.net>
White Dwarf / The Citadel Journal Index
<http://members.visi.net/~templar/index.html>;
Home Page <http://www.cs.odu.edu/~gonding/home.html>;
*******************************************************************
Message no. 12
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Serious Barrier Rating Question
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 04:33:13 EST
In a message dated 11/13/98 3:41:57 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
DeckerL@******.COM writes:

> True, but unless you have something universal for everyone then
> it breaks down
> into all sorts of fun for number crunchers like myself.
> <Snip>
> >As for a troll not having a barrier rating of 16 ... consider this ... in
> >addition to the armor which hinders ballistics on the way in and
> >way out ...
> >there is also the interval in which the 'shot' passes through the
> >human body,
> >which acts as a sponge with regards to the kinetic energy of the
> '>shot.'
> >That's why I said Body + armor ...
> I'm not arguing with the body + armor. It doesn't seem like
> too bad a formula for the average human (body 3) and
> 1 point of armor. But it breaks down at the high end.
> How about (Body + Armor)/2. That means for the above
> case they'd have a rating of 2, and for the troll 8.

How about something along the same lines as your equation ... Barrier Rating =
Body + (Armor / 2) ... this would give the target a decent barrier rating
against someone trying to blow a hole thew them ...

> This is the problem with realism and the abstract system
> of shadowrun. It depends entirely on the type of gun your
> packing and the ammo. Some rounds are designed not too
> blow through period. I can punch a whole through a person
> with a .22 if I hit them right, but it won't have any power when
> it exits. With a .45 or .9mm, it's a different story. (And I am
> far from a gun expert).

From what I understand nowadays, most bullets are designed to go in and stay
in, with the only bullets I know that don't do that being anything in the
20-cal range or higher.

> In my games I usually tend to ignore the "punch through" person
> effect, except in special cases, or to add color to the story.
> If a player is trying to do it, I usually force a called shot, and have
> the special effect be, passed through target.

I usually ignore it to, although sometimes throwing a little bit of gore of
this nature is definitely something worth doing.

-Mike
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Serious Barrier Rating Question
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:59:06 +0100
According to Cernunnos Morrigu, at 11:50 on 13 Nov 98, the word on the street was...

> How about just simplifying it to (body+armor)/2?
>
> That should work out to about the same...

Maybe, maybe not. I think it would be best to base this on body _weight_
rather than Body Rating -- fat people have more flesh that needs to be
penetrated than thin people...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
He likes to sleep. Sometimes he has good dreams.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Serious Barrier Rating Question
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:26:33 EST
In a message dated 11/14/98 5:59:30 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.NL writes:

> According to Cernunnos Morrigu, at 11:50 on 13 Nov 98, the word on the
street
> was...
>
> > How about just simplifying it to (body+armor)/2?
> >
> > That should work out to about the same...
>
> Maybe, maybe not. I think it would be best to base this on body _weight_
> rather than Body Rating -- fat people have more flesh that needs to be
> penetrated than thin people...

I'm leaving body wieght out as in SR this is something totally left up to the
whims of the players and gms. Using the Body attribute is slightly easier
since it is something that is set in stone in the game.

-Mike

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