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Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Sex Change
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:59:52 -0600
I know that following my other post this may seem trite, but it's a
serious question :)

Would it be possible to change the sex of a clone?

I'm think that if this is the case that it would make sex change
operations much easier.

The customer has a clone of the opposite sex grown. Genitalia and
other sex defining organs/body parts are replaced with parts from the
clone. Then you just follow that up with a little cosmetic surgery and
viola. No bioware or cyberware required.

I'm thinking of using this for a serious X-Files type adventure during
which the main villian changes their sex.

-David Buehrer
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 2
From: Kama <kama@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 16:24:29 -0400
On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, David Buehrer wrote:

> I know that following my other post this may seem trite, but it's a
> serious question :)
>
> Would it be possible to change the sex of a clone?
>
(SNIP)

Yes. Providing my assumption that the development of the clone from a
single cell to a full body parallels fetal development is correct.

(I am not a medical professional so if I get this backwards please don't
thwap.) During fetal development the Y chromosome causes a particular
hormone to be releasd in large quatities. At that point the develpment of
the fetus is affected and the "ovaries" decend to become testes, etc. If
the hormone is not present in sufficient quantities this change does not
occur and the fetus is female.

Problems sometimes occur when a fetus with XY chromosomes doesn't produce
sufficient hormones to cause this change. In that case, a child is born
who appears to be female. However, because the DNA is XY instead of XX
when the child hits puberty, things can go wrong. You may end up with a
young teenager being faced with the fact that all though she has been
raised a female she is genetically male and will be unable to produce
children and may not develop into a mature female properly without
extensive hormone theapy. (This is all AFAIKR)

In any case, since it is the concentration of a certian hormone that tells
the fetus weather it should grow female or male genitalia. You could
simply have the scientist add or remove the hormones as neccesary.
Admittedly, the equiptment may not work perfectly (no pregnancy) but it
should be close enough and better than what we do today.

- Kama (who has done some surfing of pre-pregnancy and fetal development
websites)
Message no. 3
From: John Pederson <pedersje@******.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:35:48 -0400
David Buehrer wrote:
>
> I know that following my other post this may seem trite, but it's a
> serious question :)

'May'? 'Will'?
:)

> Would it be possible to change the sex of a clone?

Well... yes and no:) It's easily done if the person is male -- you just
swap that Y chromosome for a copy of the X and grow your clone. Or it
might be even easier -- just play around with the hormones during the
development of the clone (easier in the sense that you don't have to do
any genetic alteration and there'd be less chance of rejection of the
... parts later). Any bio/med majors out there?

--
John Pederson, otherwise known as Lyle Canthros, shapeshifter-mage
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Oooooh! Big talk from Mr. Got-All-My-Limbs! 'Look at me! I've got arms
and legs! JERK!" --Sluggy Freelance
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864/index.html ICQ UIN: 3190186
pedersje@******.rose-hulman.edu lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com
----------------------
"I'm not fifty!" "SPOONMAN!!!" No. 2 -- with a
bullet!
Sergeant-at-Arms and Greatest Swordsman of the Frinch Army
Message no. 4
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:23:50 EDT
In a message dated 10/21/98 4:44:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pedersje@******.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU writes:

> Well... yes and no:) It's easily done if the person is male -- you just
> swap that Y chromosome for a copy of the X and grow your clone. Or it
> might be even easier -- just play around with the hormones during the
> development of the clone (easier in the sense that you don't have to do
> any genetic alteration and there'd be less chance of rejection of the

Keep in mind that we all started out as female. Something to think about!

I really do not think you can change the sex of a clone, but that is just me.

-Bandit
Message no. 5
From: Chris <chris_hayes@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:28:20 -0700
David wrote:

>
> I know that following my other post this may seem trite, but it's a
> serious question :)
>
> Would it be possible to change the sex of a clone?
>
> I'm think that if this is the case that it would make sex change
> operations much easier.
>
> The customer has a clone of the opposite sex grown. Genitalia and
> other sex defining organs/body parts are replaced with parts from the
> clone. Then you just follow that up with a little cosmetic surgery and
> viola. No bioware or cyberware required.
>
> I'm thinking of using this for a serious X-Files type adventure during
> which the main villian changes their sex.
>
> -David Buehrer
> --
> "Earn what you have been given."
> --
> email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
> http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

Well...look at fraternal twins: boy and a girl. Are they genetically the
same? I don't think so. I don't think you can have genetically the same
person be a different sex. Doesn't the fact that they are an opposite sex
make them genetically different? Actually have no clue...just trying to put
some common sense into the question...

Christopher Hayes
"Who put their hoo-hoo dilly in your cha-cha?" - Cartman
Message no. 6
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:22:53 -0500
On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:59:52 -0600 David Buehrer
<dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG> writes:
>I know that following my other post this may seem trite, but it's a
>serious question :)
>
>Would it be possible to change the sex of a clone?
>
>I'm think that if this is the case that it would make sex change
>operations much easier.
>
>The customer has a clone of the opposite sex grown. Genitalia and
>other sex defining organs/body parts are replaced with parts from the
>clone. Then you just follow that up with a little cosmetic surgery and
>viola. No bioware or cyberware required.
>
>I'm thinking of using this for a serious X-Files type adventure during
>which the main villian changes their sex.

Page 74, Shadowtech. Check out Gene Therapy. This could be used to
represent the ectual sex change procedure, or to adjust the body to a sex
change (Transexuals now have to take hormones for the rest of their
lives.). If you go with the first case, I'd charge 100k for it and say
it takes about 6 months. For the second case, I'd reccomend about 50k
and 1 week's time.

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 7
From: Joshua Mumme <Grimlakin@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 17:59:48 -0500
Chris wrote:

<BIG SNIPOLA>

> Well...look at fraternal twins: boy and a girl. Are they genetically the
> same? I don't think so. I don't think you can have genetically the same
> person be a different sex. Doesn't the fact that they are an opposite sex
> make them genetically different? Actually have no clue...just trying to put
> some common sense into the question...
>
> Christopher Hayes
> "Who put their hoo-hoo dilly in your cha-cha?" - Cartman

Well in a word yes. Being of a different sex is a different genetic makeup. But
the real question is could you create a being fare more advanced than a man? That
is right a Monkey with four ass's. No really couldn't you create a geneticly
perfect individual. Stronger faster smarter more charismatic all the good stuff.
I can allmost see the Munchkin's drooling right now. Or to pull from a system
probably almost as despised as dare I say it.. well the one NO LONGER owned by
TSR. Palladium's Rifts. Imagine something like the Juicer in SR.

Grimlakin
<what is wrong with that guy. Oh him nuttin DUCK! Damnit bob he was just
scratching his head why do you KEEP shooting these people!>
Message no. 8
From: Jennifer Baker <Oxyria@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 19:16:29 EDT
In a message dated 98-10-21 16:02:42 EDT, David Buehrer asked:

<< Would it be possible to change the sex of a clone?

I'm think that if this is the case that it would make sex change
operations much easier. >>

Well, 50 years ago they didn't even know what DNA was (1953, James Watson
figured out the structure of the stuff, my hero). Now we can take corn DNA
and add it to tomatos, do gene therapy, make clones... That's a pretty big
jump for 50 years. If technology advances at the same rate... well, use your
imagination. But I bet changing the sex chromosome in a cell wouldn't be that
hard... and if you wanted to change more, then I bet you could do that, too
(ethical questions aside).

Jennie
(who spent more time than she cares to remember studying plant genetics)
Message no. 9
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 00:23:42 -0400
Christopher Hayes
> Well...look at fraternal twins: boy and a girl. Are they genetically the
>same?

No. That is why they are fraternal, and not identical, twins. (For the
record, fraternal twins can be of the same sex). Fraternal twins happen when
two _different_ eggs get fertilized at the the same time. This means the
offspring are are different as any other siblings; they just got delivered
in the same litter.

Identical twins occur when a single fertilized egg divides into two pieces
that both "think" they are whole, individual eggs. The result is a genetic
copy.

Wordman
Message no. 10
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 00:31:26 -0400
Kama
>Problems sometimes occur when a fetus with XY chromosomes doesn't produce
>sufficient hormones to cause this change. In that case, a child is born
>who appears to be female. However, because the DNA is XY instead of XX
>when the child hits puberty, things can go wrong. You may end up with a
>young teenager being faced with the fact that all though she has been
>raised a female she is genetically male and will be unable to produce
>children and may not develop into a mature female properly without
>extensive hormone theapy. (This is all AFAIKR)

I remember hearing about this during Sex (Harvard slang for "Science B-29:
Human Behavioral Biology"). I seem to recall a similar (or it might even be
the exact same thing) situation, where a male fetus was "immune" to
testosterone. The result was a male human with female external sex
characteristics. Usually the female characteristics were more well developed
than average. Most people with this defect consider themselves female, and
don't usually find out about it until they reach child-bearing age. A rumor
went around that Jamie Lee-Curtis has this defect, but I'm not sure where
that story came from. I do know that an American Olympian was kicked out of
the Olympics because it was discovered she had a Y chromosone. The tragic
part was that she did not know this until the test mandated by the Olympics
was conducted. So, she found out she was genetically male, _and_ kicked out
of her life's dream, all in the same day.

Wordman
Message no. 11
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:37:53 +1000
Kama writes:
>Problems sometimes occur when a fetus with XY chromosomes doesn't produce
>sufficient hormones to cause this change. In that case, a child is born
>who appears to be female. However, because the DNA is XY instead of XX
>when the child hits puberty, things can go wrong. You may end up with a
>young teenager being faced with the fact that all though she has been
>raised a female she is genetically male and will be unable to produce
>children and may not develop into a mature female properly without
>extensive hormone theapy. (This is all AFAIKR)

There's an island somewhere in the South Pacific where this occurs in
something like 10% of all male children (I caught a documentary on it once).
The island has adapted to this to the extent that all female children are
raised sort of gender neutral, until they start menustrating (proving they
are really female).

This syndrome can also be caused by hormonal imbalances in the mother, which
is the major cause outside of this little SouthPac island.

--
sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 12
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 00:40:21 -0400
Wordman wrote:
>
> [ . . . ] I do know that an American Olympian was kicked out of
> the Olympics because it was discovered she had a Y chromosone. The tragic
> part was that she did not know this until the test mandated by the Olympics
> was conducted. So, she found out she was genetically male, _and_ kicked out
> of her life's dream, all in the same day.

Yep. After that, the Olympic Committee changed the rules to replace the
genetic sex-identification test with a simple physical examination from a
doctor. (Why they weren't keeping it simple in the first place is beyond me.)


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 13
From: Oliver McDonald <oliver@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 22:06:01 -0700
On Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:59:52 -0600, David Buehrer wrote:

>
>The customer has a clone of the opposite sex grown. Genitalia and
>other sex defining organs/body parts are replaced with parts from the
>clone. Then you just follow that up with a little cosmetic surgery and
>viola. No bioware or cyberware required.

It would not be an exact clone, thus as a GM I would rule that there would be an essence
loss.
Message no. 14
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:03:35 -0400
On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Kama wrote:

->On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, David Buehrer wrote:
->
->> I know that following my other post this may seem trite, but it's a
->> serious question :)
->>
->> Would it be possible to change the sex of a clone?
->>
->(SNIP)
->
->Yes. Providing my assumption that the development of the clone from a
->single cell to a full body parallels fetal development is correct.
->
->(I am not a medical professional so if I get this backwards please don't
->thwap.) During fetal development the Y chromosome causes a particular
->hormone to be releasd in large quatities. At that point the develpment of
->the fetus is affected and the "ovaries" decend to become testes, etc. If
->the hormone is not present in sufficient quantities this change does not
->occur and the fetus is female.

Correct so far.

->Problems sometimes occur when a fetus with XY chromosomes doesn't produce
->sufficient hormones to cause this change. In that case, a child is born
->who appears to be female. However, because the DNA is XY instead of XX
->when the child hits puberty, things can go wrong. You may end up with a
->young teenager being faced with the fact that all though she has been
->raised a female she is genetically male and will be unable to produce
->children and may not develop into a mature female properly without
->extensive hormone theapy. (This is all AFAIKR)

Actually, it's highly unlikely the male would be able to reproduce
naturally, even with hormone therapy. If the testes don't drop during a
particular time period (I can't recall off the top of my head the exact
period) the testes will be rendered infertile and unable to produce
spermazota in sufficient quantities to fertilize an ovum. This is due to
the fact that the human body is too hot to allow production of sperm (and
you folks thought that sack was there to be a critical hit location }:-) )
and if the testes don't drop into the scrotum (where they can be cooled
down enough to produce sperm) they can be rendered completely and
permanently infertile.

->In any case, since it is the concentration of a certian hormone that tells
->the fetus weather it should grow female or male genitalia. You could
->simply have the scientist add or remove the hormones as neccesary.
->Admittedly, the equiptment may not work perfectly (no pregnancy) but it
->should be close enough and better than what we do today.

Actually, using the 'gene therapy' as described in Shadowtech, you
could permanently alter the chromosomes and allow normal reproduction.
This process, however, would be very slow (taking days-months, depending
on age), and very expensive. This process would not change the mental
processes of the person, however, so they'd still think like their
original gender.
And then you get into the people with only one X chromosome, or
the XXY or XYY chromosome people. Females (and there are only females)
with a single X chromosome are infertile, very small, and also very weak.
Females with a XXY chromosome mixture are also infertile, are usually
fairly large (imagine a professional female wrestler of significant size)
and fairly strong. I remember rumors when I was younger and watching the
1980 Olympics that the USSR (I think the Cold War was still going on) was
selectively choosing XXY chromosomed females in the athletic events
because of their increased size, strength & stamina. XYY Chromosomed
males (and only males) are usually overly agressive, generally larger than
most males, and usually associated with criminal behavior. Note: There
are no instances of a person with only a Y chromosome. There is not
enough genetic information on a Y chromosome to make a person of either
gender.

->- Kama (who has done some surfing of pre-pregnancy and fetal development
->websites)

Fixer (who remembers having to teach this chapter twice in high school
when the teacher dropped out of the class).
Message no. 15
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:13:37 -0400
On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Chris wrote:

-> Well...look at fraternal twins: boy and a girl. Are they genetically the
->same? I don't think so. I don't think you can have genetically the same
->person be a different sex. Doesn't the fact that they are an opposite sex
->make them genetically different? Actually have no clue...just trying to put
->some common sense into the question...

To help explain, instances of fraternal twins are when there are
two available ovum in the female and both are fertilized at the same time
(although not necessarily by the same male). Since they are not built of
the same genetic material (each ovum & spermazota is different in some
minor way) they will not be genetically identical. They will be similar,
but no more so than one sibling is to another.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 16
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:19:12 -0400
On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Joshua Mumme wrote:

-> Well in a word yes. Being of a different sex is a different genetic makeup. But
->the real question is could you create a being fare more advanced than a man? That
->is right a Monkey with four ass's. No really couldn't you create a geneticly
->perfect individual. Stronger faster smarter more charismatic all the good stuff.
->I can allmost see the Munchkin's drooling right now. Or to pull from a system
->probably almost as despised as dare I say it.. well the one NO LONGER owned by
->TSR. Palladium's Rifts. Imagine something like the Juicer in SR.

I actualy made something like the Juicer in rifts. Called the
piece of cyber (it's just one piece of cyber, too) Chem-ware. Very random
benefits, very powerful but very very risky. It's on my homepage (Email
me private if you don't know where it is).

->Grimlakin
-><what is wrong with that guy. Oh him nuttin DUCK! Damnit bob he was just
->scratching his head why do you KEEP shooting these people!>

Cute. }:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 17
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:03:22 -0400
Fixer wrote:
>
> [ . . . ] XYY Chromosomed
> males (and only males) are usually overly agressive, generally larger than
> most males, and usually associated with criminal behavior.

Your information may be out-of-date.. I recall reading a newspaper
article (or was it Newsweek?) a couple years back that suggested that
stereotype may be invalid; the original studies were *focusing* on prison
populations, and so their data was already biased towards their
conclusions. If anything, the new data suggested, XYY males in general
tend to be *more* sensitive than other men, and passive-aggressive rather
than aggressive.

I wish I could provide better sources.. This is just what I remember.
I'm sure you can search on the Web for more if you find the subject
interesting.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 18
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 23:47:07 -0400
Steve Eley wrote:
>Yep. After that, the Olympic Committee changed the rules to replace the
>genetic sex-identification test with a simple physical examination from a
>doctor. (Why they weren't keeping it simple in the first place is beyond me.)

The reason for the rule in the first place was that in the Sixties, the East
Germans fielded a rather butch looking female team. It was widely thought
that the were males who were given sex changes.

Wordman
Message no. 19
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 14:16:38 +1000
Wordman writes:
> The reason for the rule in the first place was that in the
> Sixties, the East
> Germans fielded a rather butch looking female team. It was widely thought
> that the were males who were given sex changes.

Later on, it was revealed they were merely East German...

(Cruel, but irresitable)

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 20
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:31:03 +0200
According to David Buehrer, at 13:59 on 21 Oct 98, the word on the street was...

> The customer has a clone of the opposite sex grown. Genitalia and
> other sex defining organs/body parts are replaced with parts from the
> clone. Then you just follow that up with a little cosmetic surgery and
> viola. No bioware or cyberware required.

Hmm... Are brain transplants possible in SR? If so, then it would probably
be even more effective to grow a clone of the other sex, and transplant
the villain's brain into the clone. This way you get _everything_ right
about the body in one go.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Een beetje van jezelf en een beetje van magie.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 12:57:00 +0200
And so it came to happen that Gurth wrote:
----------
<snip>
> Hmm... Are brain transplants possible in SR? If so, then it would
probably
> be even more effective to grow a clone of the other sex, and transplant
> the villain's brain into the clone. This way you get _everything_ right
> about the body in one go.

If you consider the Cyberskull, I'll guess it is possible. Damn, see the
posibilities for one if you've got the time for it. Take one of those
elves. Tie him up, get that brain outta him and put it inside a cloned and
altered Dwarf body. Or better into that of a Troll!
Then throw the poor slot after half a year out of your hospital and wait
for him to get his old body back!
Whoa, nasty ideas spring to my mind if that would be possible! A bit of
tweaking and it could be done. Ah, mad scientist are just fabulous for plot
ideas!

--->Steadfast
to be "human" is not a state of living
I want to achieve.
Message no. 22
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 07:32:26 -0400
At 11:31 AM 10-23-98 +0200, Gurth wrote:

>Hmm... Are brain transplants possible in SR? If so, then it would probably
>be even more effective to grow a clone of the other sex, and transplant
>the villain's brain into the clone. This way you get _everything_ right
>about the body in one go.

Theoretically, head and brain transplants are possible TODAY. It's just
that bio-ethics considerations (i.e., the gross-out factor) have killed or
suppressed almost all research and experimentation along those avenues.
However, some researchers are pursuing this line in "more understanding
jurisdictions" (i.e., countries with no experimental regulation) with an
eye towards giving quadriplegics and folks with degenerative diseases body
transplants.

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 23
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 08:08:33 -0400
Quoting Starjammer (starjammer@**********.COM):
> Theoretically, head and brain transplants are possible TODAY. It's just
> that bio-ethics considerations (i.e., the gross-out factor) have killed or
> suppressed almost all research and experimentation along those avenues.
> However, some researchers are pursuing this line in "more understanding
> jurisdictions" (i.e., countries with no experimental regulation) with an
> eye towards giving quadriplegics and folks with degenerative diseases body
> transplants.

Standard Disclaimer: I Am Not An Expert, But...

...isn't the lack of regeneration in nerves, especially things like the
spinal cord, a major barrier to doing anything like what you describe?
Have they found a way to overcome that? Lining up all of those nerves by
hand is just basically impossible, I would think. You'd have to get them
in about the right place, then hope for the pathways to reestablish themselves.
And that assumes the nerves reconnect. Hmm. Whole head sounds easier than
just a brain, in any event. At least most of the nerves are bundled in one
place, and you don't have to deal with hooking up the eyes and everything
else separately.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 24
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 07:29:30 -0600
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Steadfast wrote:
/
/ And so it came to happen that Gurth wrote:
/ ----------
/ <snip>
/ > Hmm... Are brain transplants possible in SR? If so, then it would
/ probably
/ > be even more effective to grow a clone of the other sex, and transplant
/ > the villain's brain into the clone. This way you get _everything_ right
/ > about the body in one go.
/
/ If you consider the Cyberskull, I'll guess it is possible. Damn, see the
/ posibilities for one if you've got the time for it. Take one of those
/ elves. Tie him up, get that brain outta him and put it inside a cloned and
/ altered Dwarf body. Or better into that of a Troll!
/ Then throw the poor slot after half a year out of your hospital and wait
/ for him to get his old body back!
/ Whoa, nasty ideas spring to my mind if that would be possible! A bit of
/ tweaking and it could be done. Ah, mad scientist are just fabulous for plot
/ ideas!

I'm suddenly reminded of the Giligan's Island episode when the evil
scientist switched everyone's personalities :)

Seriously tho, I just had another thought. Wouldn't a body transplant
be a way for someone to get their essence back that they lost due to
cyberware?

-David Buehrer
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 25
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 09:36:16 -0400
Starjammer wrote:
>
> Theoretically, head and brain transplants are possible TODAY. It's just
> that bio-ethics considerations (i.e., the gross-out factor) have killed or
> suppressed almost all research and experimentation along those avenues.

Not quite. AFAIK (and I'm sure someone will be "touchy" if I'm wrong)
they still can't fully regenerate nerve tissue, which means they still
can't reconnect the spinal cord once it's been severed.

There is progress being made on this front, and the problem will probably
be solved in the near future, but saying it's possible today is a bit of
an overstatement.


> However, some researchers are pursuing this line in "more understanding
> jurisdictions" (i.e., countries with no experimental regulation) with an
> eye towards giving quadriplegics and folks with degenerative diseases body
> transplants.

If they could solve the basic problem stopping brain transplants --
reconnecting nerve tissue -- they could cure most quadriplegics. At which
point a body transplant wouldn't be necessary for them.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 26
From: Kama <kama@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 09:37:57 -0400
On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Fixer wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Kama wrote:
>
> ->On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, David Buehrer wrote:

(SNIP)

>
> ->Problems sometimes occur when a fetus with XY chromosomes doesn't produce
> ->sufficient hormones to cause this change. In that case, a child is born
> ->who appears to be female. However, because the DNA is XY instead of XX
> ->when the child hits puberty, things can go wrong. You may end up with a
> ->young teenager being faced with the fact that all though she has been
> ->raised a female she is genetically male and will be unable to produce
> ->children and may not develop into a mature female properly without
> ->extensive hormone theapy. (This is all AFAIKR)
>
> Actually, it's highly unlikely the male would be able to reproduce
> naturally, even with hormone therapy. If the testes don't drop during a
> particular time period (I can't recall off the top of my head the exact
> period) the testes will be rendered infertile and unable to produce
> spermazota in sufficient quantities to fertilize an ovum. This is due to
> the fact that the human body is too hot to allow production of sperm (and
> you folks thought that sack was there to be a critical hit location }:-) )
> and if the testes don't drop into the scrotum (where they can be cooled
> down enough to produce sperm) they can be rendered completely and
> permanently infertile.
>

Errrr . . . Maybe I should have reworded that last sentance of mine. What
I meant was said individual will be incapable of reproducing. The
individual may also lack certain secondary sexual characteristics of a
mature female without hormone therapy.

As for the problems with an overheated scrotum, I was aware of those
difficulties. (Never invite a dtae to use the hot tub after dinner, unless
you want a quiet evening . . .)

-Kama
Message no. 27
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 10:03:54 -0400
Quoting David Buehrer (dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG):
> Seriously tho, I just had another thought. Wouldn't a body transplant
> be a way for someone to get their essence back that they lost due to
> cyberware?
>

Hurm. If it was a cloned body....mmm. Well, yeah, I guess that would
make sense. Probably not ALL of it (assume that the transplant isn't perfect,
and has some sort of essence cost), but it'd potentially reverse essence
lost due to body damage (cyberware, drug abuse, etc).
This raises an interesting question, though. What is it that has
to 'match' for the aura and body to fit together? I mean, your body changes
naturally over the course of your life (you get more or less fit, gain weight,
lose weight, etc). Does the aura change with it, or are those changes
irrelevant as far as the aura is concerned? If they're irrelevant, you could
do a transplant into a PERFECT you. No genetic changes compared to your
own DNA, but a large part of the way our bodies look is the result of
environment. Your scrawny bookworm Hermetic could get his brain transplanted
into a clone that's had perfect nutrition and extensive conditioning for its
entire 'life'...it'd still be 'his' body, just his body as it would have
looked if he'd done dramatically different things with it over the past
twenty or thirty years. Control the hormone balance for optimum development,
etc etc etc.

--Sean
--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 28
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:40:37 -0400
Sean McCrohan wrote:
>
> [ ... ] Your scrawny bookworm Hermetic could get his brain transplanted
> into a clone that's had perfect nutrition and extensive conditioning for its
> entire 'life'...it'd still be 'his' body, just his body as it would have
> looked if he'd done dramatically different things with it over the past
> twenty or thirty years. Control the hormone balance for optimum development,
> etc etc etc.

We're all making one broad and groundless assumption here that seems to
have no basis in modern biology: how do they go about accelerating the
aging of the clone for a fast and healthy adult body?

Right now, a clone is just a genetically identical organism. If you
wanted to clone yourself and transplant your brain into a healthy
20-year-old body, you'd have to wait twenty years. Shadowrun's "cloned
tissue" principle, and all the discussion we've had here, seems to assume
that there's some way to grow the clone more quickly than natural aging.
The cloning stuff in Shadowtech seems to imply that the health of the
overall body suffers; that each clone is tank-grown only to obtain a few
perfect organs, and the rest of the body doesn't matter. Here, we're
talking about raising a perfect, healthy body, and that implies
accelerated aging *and* some kind of physical therapy/conditioning to keep
muscle tone and good circulation. And takes a lot more than just a vat.

So how does the aging work? Anyone? Reverse Leonization, or is there
something else? More to the point, if there *is* some kind of hormonal or
genetic way to increase the aging process of a body tenfold or more --
what's to say you can turn it *off* once you've transplanted your brain
into that body? If you could have an eighteen-year-old clone of yourself
in three months, but you'll only live two more years before dying of old
age, would anyone in their right mind consider it worth it?

Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 29
From: Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:49:46 -0400
At 10:03 AM 10/23/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Quoting David Buehrer (dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG):
>> Seriously tho, I just had another thought. Wouldn't a body transplant
>> be a way for someone to get their essence back that they lost due to
>> cyberware?
>>
>
> Hurm. If it was a cloned body....mmm. Well, yeah, I guess that=
would
>make sense. Probably not ALL of it (assume that the transplant isn't=
perfect,
>and has some sort of essence cost), but it'd potentially reverse essence
>lost due to body damage (cyberware, drug abuse, etc).
> This raises an interesting question, though. What is it that has
>to 'match' for the aura and body to fit together?

I've always attributed Essence loss to Aural disruption. The idea is that
tying your 'living' bio-system in with 'dead' mechanical devices
confuses/unbalances the body's aura/spirit.

This is why it is *possible* to loose an arm and retain all your essence,
but the moment you wire a cyberarm in there, you loose the essence (IMO).

I also allow players to dump *certain types* of cyberware to get essence
back. To me, it makes sense that removing the cyberarm has the potential
to put things back the way they were spiritually.

Note that I use the words 'possible' and 'potential'. This is not
guaranteed, but I think if the character is willing to take drastic steps
to get essence back (such as go without a limb), that it signifies a
certain inner harmony (the desire to cripple one's self to regain aural
symetry) that would make Essence renewal possible.

But I think that Clonal replacements should allow a PC to regain lost
essence ware.

OTOH the damage due to drug abuse, deadly wounds and inept medical
treatment would be a little too extensive to say: "here's a new liver, all
better." I mean, what do you replace when a drug has wasted away your
whole biosystem, or a near-death experience that threatened to disperse
your essence to 0 altogether drops it by a point?

> --Sean

(>)noysh the spoonë bard
-> jack of all trades, master of none. <-
Message no. 30
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:57:22 -0400
Quoting Shaun Gilroy (shaung@**********.NET):
> OTOH the damage due to drug abuse, deadly wounds and inept medical
> treatment would be a little too extensive to say: "here's a new liver, all
> better." I mean, what do you replace when a drug has wasted away your
> whole biosystem, or a near-death experience that threatened to disperse
> your essence to 0 altogether drops it by a point?

I guess you replace the whole body, wihch is why I brought it up
in the first place :) Since the person I responded to was asking about
the essence effects of transplanting your brain into a new body.

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 31
From: Sean McCrohan <mccrohan@*****.OIT.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 12:00:42 -0400
Quoting Steve Eley (sfeley@***.NET):
> Right now, a clone is just a genetically identical organism. If you
> wanted to clone yourself and transplant your brain into a healthy
> 20-year-old body, you'd have to wait twenty years. Shadowrun's "cloned
> tissue" principle, and all the discussion we've had here, seems to assume
> that there's some way to grow the clone more quickly than natural aging.

Right. Since that sort of technique is required for the stuff
the Shadowrun books talk about to work, we can safely assume that in 2050,
it's possible...but as to how they do it, or what the state of real-world
research is in that area, I have no idea whatsoever :)

--Sean

--
Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking
Grad Student, Human-Computer Interaction | horse, and under the presentation
Georgia Institute of Technology | of that he shoots his wit."
http://www.lcc.gatech.edu/~smccrohan | _As You Like It_, Act 5 Sc 4
Message no. 32
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 15:08:58 -0500
On Fri, 23 Oct 1998 07:29:30 -0600 David Buehrer
<dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG> writes:
<SNIP>
>Seriously tho, I just had another thought. Wouldn't a body transplant
>be a way for someone to get their essence back that they lost due to
>cyberware?

I'd have to say ... ARGH!

Then after that well, let's see:

Case 1:
Answer, "yes".
This lets the mage get reg Titanium bone lacing, transfer bodies later on
and implant delta bone lacing and voila same benifits and 1 more point
magic (debatable).

Uhm ... NO.

Case 2:
Answer, "no".
This means that you take your Essence loss with you.
Munckin: "Well, my char is a mage that got his brain transplanted into a
body of a cyberzombie ..."

NO!

What's left?
Case 3: New Essence is lower of old Essence or that of the new body.
Case 4: Essence loss from from old body is cumulative with essence loss
from new body. (Essence Loss from old body is considered "empty slots")
Case 5: Brain transplant results in 6 points of Essence loss. (All
Essence loss in this fashion is considered "empty slots". SR3 Note: This
is not 6 points of Essence Loss. It a number of points sufficiently
close to 6 as to be indistinguishable from 6 in a game mechanics sense
without actually being six. [In other words, it is theoretically equal
to 5 + (1/Infinity).])

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

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Message no. 33
From: Mongoose <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 17:18:03 -0700
:> However, some researchers are pursuing this line in "more understanding
:> jurisdictions" (i.e., countries with no experimental regulation) with
an
:> eye towards giving quadriplegics and folks with degenerative diseases
body
:> transplants.
:
:If they could solve the basic problem stopping brain transplants --
:reconnecting nerve tissue -- they could cure most quadriplegics. At
which
:point a body transplant wouldn't be necessary for them.


Actually, in many cases, it still would. Years of quadriplegia can
take an immense toll on internal organs (not to mention skeleton and
muscle). Rehabilitation would not always be possible. Quadriplegia
shortens your lifespan considerably, in almost very case, even barring
direct complications.

Mongoose
Message no. 34
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 23:00:10 -0400
At 08:08 AM 10-23-98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Standard Disclaimer: I Am Not An Expert, But...
>
>...isn't the lack of regeneration in nerves, especially things like the
>spinal cord, a major barrier to doing anything like what you describe?
>Have they found a way to overcome that? Lining up all of those nerves by
>hand is just basically impossible, I would think. You'd have to get them
>in about the right place, then hope for the pathways to reestablish
themselves.
>And that assumes the nerves reconnect. Hmm. Whole head sounds easier than
>just a brain, in any event. At least most of the nerves are bundled in one
>place, and you don't have to deal with hooking up the eyes and everything
>else separately.
>
>Sean McCrohan (mccrohan@**.gatech.edu) | "He uses his folly as a stalking

That's where the "theoretically possible" part comes in. AFAIK (and I'm
not an expert either, just trying to recall the details of a TLC special I
saw) the transplant can successfully be accomplished if the head is
reattached before the nerve endings die. For that to happen you have to
have near-perfect conditions. Essentially, it boils down to a complicated
limb reattachment procedure. Presumably 2060 medicine would make this
procedure vastly more feasible.

I do know that as part of this research, they've experimented with severing
and sustaining the heads of lower primates. At the time the special was
made (IIRC) they hadn't reached the point of attempting reattachment
procedures, but that was due to legal and bureaucratic road-blocks, not a
deficiency in technique. That was about the time the researcher in
question was shut down and decided to move out of the country.

Starjammer | Una salus victus nullam sperare salutem.
starjammer@**********.com | "The one hope of the doomed is not to hope
Marietta, GA | for safety." --Virgil, The Aeneid
Message no. 35
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 08:40:02 -0600
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Steve Eley wrote:
/
/ Right now, a clone is just a genetically identical organism. If you
/ wanted to clone yourself and transplant your brain into a healthy
/ 20-year-old body, you'd have to wait twenty years. Shadowrun's "cloned
/ tissue" principle, and all the discussion we've had here, seems to assume
/ that there's some way to grow the clone more quickly than natural aging.
/ The cloning stuff in Shadowtech seems to imply that the health of the
/ overall body suffers; that each clone is tank-grown only to obtain a few
/ perfect organs, and the rest of the body doesn't matter.

Well, you prodded my memory and I hunted down...

BBB3, pg 128: "Pieces and Parts: When a character loses a body part and
needs a replacement, the part might not be immediately available. thos who
want a complete DNA match will have to have the part grown. (A DocWagon
(TM) platinum service contract includs a "donor counterpart" who can
provide material for immediate transplant starting three months into the
contract.)

"Transplants have varying degrees of compatibility with the recipient.
Over time or when subjected to sever stress (like more Deadly damage, for
example), the transplant may fail, requiring another replacement. The
gamemaster decides when to invoke the possibility of failure."

From the DocWagon(TM) comment, it could be assumed that a whole clone is
grown. However, it could also imply that they can guarantee a DNA match
with someone else within three months. How they get the match to provide
organs, I have no idea (altho it would make for a fun run when one of the
characters is being hunted by DocWagon for their left arm to be used to
replace the arm of a wealthy patient :)

But, you are correct that cloned parts are not as healthy as the
original.

Also, in the sidebar the table reflects that small organs, large
organs, hands/feet, and limbs can be cloned, but it doesn't mention the
torso. Hmmm... Doesn't say that it's available. However, it doesn't
state that it can't be done. <shrug>

Your comments have given me a better idea however. I'm going to go
with the 20 year clone idea. 20 years ago the villian started to grow
a clone of themselves. During the adventure the villian will have his
brain transplanted into the new clone. Then she will wreak havoc on
the PCs.

If at somepoint after the brain transplant the PCs can cause enough
stress the villian will suffer from major organ system failure.

Thanks for the help :)

-David Buehrer
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 36
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 17:25:24 +0000
DB wrote:
> Also, in the sidebar the table reflects that small organs, large
> organs, hands/feet, and limbs can be cloned, but it doesn't mention the
> torso. Hmmm... Doesn't say that it's available. However, it doesn't
> state that it can't be done. <shrug>

I'd think that might be because, if you need your entire torso
replaced, you're definitely past the point where you need a doctor.
You need an undertaker.

;)

Regards,
Fade
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 37
From: Steadfast <laughingman@*******.DE>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 23:40:51 +0200
And so it came to happen that Steve Eley wrote in reply to Sean McCrohan:

<snip>
>
> So how does the aging work? Anyone? Reverse Leonization, or is there
> something else? More to the point, if there *is* some kind of hormonal or
> genetic way to increase the aging process of a body tenfold or more --
> what's to say you can turn it *off* once you've transplanted your brain
> into that body? If you could have an eighteen-year-old clone of yourself
> in three months, but you'll only live two more years before dying of old
> age, would anyone in their right mind consider it worth it?


If you say the 'production' of clones is done by altering the genetic structure
to grow more quick than nature has designed it to grow, than why should the
transplanted organ not age after it is attached to the patient? I mean, if you
get your arm shot from your torso, then get clone grown one what happens? Does
the arm age more quickly and after 2 years simply is the equivalent of 60 years
old with all the ilnesses that came with that? Or is it that the altered
cellstructure with the altered DNA Code is so hostile that it rewrites the
complete body with that now faster aging DNA? Hm. No Don't think so. DNA
altering should not be taken into account then. Or maybe they insert a DNA Code
that destroys itself after certain amount of time ... Or better, think of it!
You alter the DNA that it grows quicker than average. You keep the growing body
under timed electrostac shocks to make sure that rīthe musclestructure builds
itself correctly. And you keep the whole Clon/Vat under pressure so timed that
the skelleton can grow correct and right. After the clone is perfect in age, you
simply (har, har, I know) reconfigure the DNA Code of the clone so that aging is
now once again moderate. That could be done with leonidisation. And for the
aging process, just do not let the (Uhm, should have better listend in those
biology lessons) hypophyse (in the brain, small gland...) stop the production of
growth hormons, no, simply multiply the output by ten or what you need (better
20). And you infuse the Cellstructure with a altered DNA Code in such a way that
after the leonisidation the DNA Code is an exact match. Could it work like that?
For the game?

Anyway, after having a complete Clone at hand it should be possible to use it as
a full bodyemplacement. Heck if it is possible with cyber, it should be with Bio
too, doesn't it?
And for Essencecost, just say that the new body has an Essencerating of 5.8
(6-Leonisidation).
Proper food for thought?
--
---> Steadfast
Surfin' through the 'trix is
not like dustin crops boy!
Message no. 38
From: d m <zenbudo@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 13:09:36 PST
>From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>

>Subject: Re: Sex Change

>If at somepoint after the brain transplant the PCs can cause enough

>stress the villian will suffer from major organ system failure.

>-David Buehrer



Heinlein's book "I Will Fear No Evil" is the story of a rich old
corporate codger who gets his brain put into the body of his lovely
secretary. I don't remember much else, but I do believe the setting was
near-future (like within 50 years). *shrug*



May be interesting reading if any of y'all want to follow up.



GF/X



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Message no. 39
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:06:17 -0600
On Mon, 26 Oct 1998 13:09:36 PST d m <zenbudo@*******.COM> writes:
>>From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
>>Subject: Re: Sex Change

>>If at somepoint after the brain transplant the PCs can cause enough
>>stress the villian will suffer from major organ system failure.

>Heinlein's book "I Will Fear No Evil" is the story of a rich old
>corporate codger who gets his brain put into the body of his lovely
>secretary. I don't remember much else, but I do believe the setting was
>near-future (like within 50 years). *shrug*
>
>
>
>May be interesting reading if any of y'all want to follow up.

You happened to pick my favorite book. :) You also described you of the
most interesting twists in the book (Fortunately, I din't read the blurb
on the back). Basicly, at the start the "rich old corporate codger" had
lotsa money but had crap for a body. He got together with his lawyer to
set up a reward type offering. Anyone (He forgot to specify male
subjects) could sign up and it had clauses to prevent people from
collecting (the money was kind of like life insurance money.) for
suicides and such. Right away the old guy's secretary and lawyer sign
up. Short time later the secretary is assaulted and dies from brain
damage and so he winds up in her body. It's a very moving book and I
reccomend it to anyone, not just Science Fiction fans (It's not that much
of a Science Fiction book.). Robert Heinlein was an excelent author and
he made that book and those characters live!

SR Context? Uhm, well... it could be used for some flavor. (I believe
the old guy had an armored flying limo and his corp maintained a private
security force ...)

Btw, in this book, it refered to sexual preferences and heterosexual,
homosexual, and ambisexual. :)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
re-cur-sion (ri-kur'-zhen) noun. 1. See recursion.

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
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Message no. 40
From: d m <zenbudo@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex Change
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:09:03 PST
>From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>

>Subject: Re: Sex Change

>To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET

<major premise & plot snippage>

>of a Science Fiction book.). Robert Heinlein was an excelent author

>and he made that book and those characters live!



You know, I originally got that book years ago...I think I missed out on
most of nuances of social interaction cuz I was in my early teens and
considered that stuff BOOORRING. Might be a whole different story now.



>SR Context? Uhm, well... it could be used for some flavor. (I

>the old guy had an armored flying limo and his corp maintained a

>security force ...)



Weren't there Abandoned Zones (?) in the story that were basically the
equivalent of Barrens?



>Btw, in this book, it refered to sexual preferences and heterosexual,

>homosexual, and ambisexual. :)



OH yes...I remember all that confusing stuff (teen, remember :). If
anyone wants to see some possible long-term social interactivity
repercussions of a (sci-fi) sex change, give it a browse. Actually, make
that BODY change. That reminds me, doesn't Jack L. Chalker
(sci-fi/fantasy) often have characters who are...what was the
term...transgendered(?)?



If anyone ever reads Dirty Pair (anime), there was one book where the
villain's persona was embedded on a chip, and with the prevalence of
datajacks, easily jumped from body to body. Boy, just when you thought
your meat body was safe when you're in the Matrix....<evilGM(tm) laugh>



ZenBuDo *just realizing how common some of these themes are!*



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Further Reading

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Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!