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Message no. 1
From: Alexia Silverstein <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 10:47:54 -0700
After reading all the comments on this subject during the week, when
we played Shadowrun on Friday, I put my boyfriend, the GM in a
peculiar position when my bodyguard/"escort" wanted to call her City
Official and "convince" him to give her the blueprints to a building
our group had to infiltrate.
The guys in the group (I'm the only female) didn't know what use I
could be to them and I really couldn't do anything useful up till that
point. (not to mention they weren't paying much attention to anything
I was doing Out Of Character, ooc, or In Character, ic.) When my pc
showed up late to the meet the Wolf Shaman asked where I had been and
what I had been doing all this time. It surprised him when I told him
it was none of his business then handed him a copy of the blueprints
to the building. The found out what use I could be...
So, Thanks for the Idea Whoever started this string...(I forget)

ps I guess it was the first time they had a shadowrun that was rated R
and not from Violence...

Alexia



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Message no. 2
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 14:36:07 EST
> we played Shadowrun on Friday, I put my boyfriend, the GM in a
> peculiar position when my bodyguard/"escort" wanted to call her City
> Official and "convince" him to give her the blueprints to a building

So I guess the question was whether you convinced your bf in
character or out of character :)

Seriously though, you have one advantage here...he was your bf. My
fiance has nothing to do with my group, and we have a lot of problems
when sex issues come up (which they do, considering we have a love
star(?) among the other players, the female of whom plays a rather
"liberal" character.) This is even before my fiance gets jealous
when she overhears the female role-playing an "encounter". The
others are nasty looking guys, which makes is just as bad.

Sigh.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 3
From: Alexia Silverstein <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:09:26 -0700
---Swift One wrote:
<snip>
> So I guess the question was whether you convinced your bf in
> character or out of character :)

Well, it was like one of those hokey movies where they head towards
the hot tub and they cut to the next scene where someone's driving a
bus... *shrug* Oh well...

> This is even before my fiance gets jealous
> when she overhears the female role-playing an "encounter".

I might suggest 'bout your fiance that you should tell her you'll act
out those scenes later with her. Or that you wish it were her or
something.

Alexia
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Message no. 4
From: Jessica Grota <grota@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 21:05:49 -0400
Alexia Silverstein wrote:

> So, Thanks for the Idea Whoever started this string...(I forget)



/me bows. "Thank you, thank you..."

--Jett
Message no. 5
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 05:34:00 -0500
>
> Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks) (Alexia Silverstein , Mon 12:47)
>
> After reading all the comments on this subject during the week, when
> we played Shadowrun on Friday, I put my boyfriend, the GM in a
> peculiar position when my bodyguard/"escort" wanted to call her City
> Official and "convince" him to give her the blueprints to a building
> our group had to infiltrate.
> The guys in the group (I'm the only female) didn't know what use I
> could be to them and I really couldn't do anything useful up till that
> point.

Why does it generally seem only FEMALE pc's are "useful" in this
manner, despite (rare) male PC's identical stats and skills? Isn't
sexism suposed to be a dead issue in SR? Our male "interactions
specialist" finds few "useful" NPC female (or homosexual) targets to
seduce, despite the "actual" portions being about 45% (and 5-10%),
IIRC. :(
A lot of fun is the skill "deviant psycology" coupled with a
"Madam"
contact who will hook you up with "special" clients. Well, at least,
its USEFUL. Really. Thats all I meant.... and its "classic"
cyberpunk, too, so don't blame me.

-Mongoose
Message no. 6
From: Alexia Silverstein <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 09:15:59 -0700
---Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET> wrote:
><snip>
> Why does it generally seem only FEMALE pc's are "useful" in
this
> manner, despite (rare) male PC's identical stats and skills? Isn't
> sexism suposed to be a dead issue in SR?
<snip>
> -Mongoose

Well, I mean guys are just more reserved in their sexuality in front
of other guys, therefore even if the opportunity arose for a pc to
interact hetero or homo sexualy with a gm character, they'd be too
intimidated by the fact that they may do something and fail miserably
in front of all thier buddies. (at least this is what I've found)
Maybe I hang out with a wird bunch but all the girls I know are very
secure in thier sexuality and say things like "you think this 'll get
the guy's attention?" (referring to a low cut blouse or slit in the
skirt) Where as guys I know try to avoid anything like that.
So...even if sexism is dead in SR, there are still psychological
issues in the actual players themselves that make women more suited to
play these parts.

http://www.sova.net/trish/shadowrun
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Message no. 7
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:02:15 -0600
Alexia Silverstein wrote:
/
/ ---Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET> wrote:
/ ><snip>
/ > Why does it generally seem only FEMALE pc's are "useful" in
/ this
/ > manner, despite (rare) male PC's identical stats and skills? Isn't
/ > sexism suposed to be a dead issue in SR?
/ <snip>
/ > -Mongoose
/
/ Well, I mean guys are just more reserved in their sexuality in front
/ of other guys, therefore even if the opportunity arose for a pc to
/ interact hetero or homo sexualy with a gm character, they'd be too
/ intimidated by the fact that they may do something and fail miserably
/ in front of all thier buddies. (at least this is what I've found)
/ Maybe I hang out with a wird bunch but all the girls I know are very
/ secure in thier sexuality and say things like "you think this 'll get
/ the guy's attention?" (referring to a low cut blouse or slit in the
/ skirt) Where as guys I know try to avoid anything like that.
/ So...even if sexism is dead in SR, there are still psychological
/ issues in the actual players themselves that make women more suited to
/ play these parts.

The sexual security of men also has to do with their age. I don't
know why, but that seems to be the case. For example, when I was
younger everything Alexia said was right on the nose. Neither I, nor
any of my friends, were secure sexually. Well, except for Bill, but
he was an exception. Nowadays my sexuality is pretty secure, as is
the sexuality of my friends. I can even point out to my friend Craig
that his tight ass probably drives women crazy.

I think it's cuz women don't have to deal with testosterone. From
the ages of 1-11 I couldn't care less about sexuality issues. Then,
Bang, I couldn't think of anything else and didn't understand it a
bit. It's like getting a craving for icecream and you're pretty sure
you know what flavor you want, but you don't have a clue as to how to
get some, let alone knowing how to eat it.

Over time most men either get used to it and learn to deal with their
sexuality, or the testosterone level drops off and they don't care.
I learned to deal with it :) Being married also adds to my level of
security <shrug>.

I don't think that sexuality should be a dead issue in Shadowrun. I
think that problems similar to today's problems should exist. Men
should still, in general, be "tight" when it comes to sexuality. I
don't know what women should be cuz I don't understand them ;) With
the advent of cybertechnology and advanced cosmetic surgery the lines
should be blurred, while being more in the fore front.

Is that a man or a woman, both, neither? What do you mean you used
to be a man? I only date women that used to be men, they know how to
make love to a man. Etc.

-David
--
"That which we do not know supports that which we know."
- Joseph Campbell
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 8
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:06:34 -0500
<SNIP>
> The sexual security of men also has to do with their age. I don't
> know why, but that seems to be the case. For example, when I was
> younger everything Alexia said was right on the nose. Neither I, nor
> any of my friends, were secure sexually. Well, except for Bill, but
> he was an exception. Nowadays my sexuality is pretty secure, as is
> the sexuality of my friends. I can even point out to my friend Craig
> that his tight ass probably drives women crazy.
>
Amen to that. Of course this doesn't always seem to hold true
to women as you suggested. Unusual, but I never claimed to understand
the opposite sex. :)


<SNIP>
>
> Over time most men either get used to it and learn to deal with their
> sexuality, or the testosterone level drops off and they don't care.
> I learned to deal with it :) Being married also adds to my level of
> security <shrug>.
>
Heh...isn't that the truth.

> I don't think that sexuality should be a dead issue in Shadowrun. I
> think that problems similar to today's problems should exist. Men
> should still, in general, be "tight" when it comes to sexuality. I
> don't know what women should be cuz I don't understand them ;) With
> the advent of cybertechnology and advanced cosmetic surgery the lines
> should be blurred, while being more in the fore front.
>
> Is that a man or a woman, both, neither? What do you mean you used
> to be a man? I only date women that used to be men, they know how to
> make love to a man. Etc.
>
I agree, although that largely seems to depend on your players. Some
groups love the roleplaying, odd parts. (Ever have a contest to see
who can pick up a lady in a bar? Ever had your PC's fight over
someone? Or ever use the fact that a guy was once a girl as a plot device?)
Some groups, can't stand that sorta thing.
Ah well....anybody here ever read Jennifer Roberson's Tiger and Del, SwordDancer series?
Interesting commentary on men & women differences wrapped up
in very good books. (At least the 1st two).


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The universe doesn't have laws, it has habits. And habits can be broken.
Message no. 9
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 15:04:41 -0400
At 11:02 AM 5/5/98 -0600, you wrote:

>I think it's cuz women don't have to deal with testosterone. From
>the ages of 1-11 I couldn't care less about sexuality issues. Then,
>Bang, I couldn't think of anything else and didn't understand it a
>bit. It's like getting a craving for icecream and you're pretty sure
>you know what flavor you want, but you don't have a clue as to how to
>get some, let alone knowing how to eat it.

I disagree on the matter of testosterone; biology is a major factor, but
nowhere near the only one. It has far more to do with cultural standards
and behaviors. Women are supposed to attract men, so sexuality is much
more of a frontal part of their thinking and psychology. And while men
tend to be nearly obsessed with sex (myself not excluded), culture dictates
that we are the bread winners, that sex is to be pushed back on our
priorities.

This holds true in many, many different cultures. The woman is supposed to
find a man and have babies. The man is supposed to provide for them all.

As far as clothing and compliments go, it's also culture. A woman at a
club dresses to attract a man, to show off her body (which, at a primal
level, is showing her "fertility"). A man dresses to impress, to show off
his wealth (which, at a primal level, is showing his ability to provide for
his children). And women have been conditioned to be very fashion concious
and will discuss fashion. Men have been conditioned to the opposite, that
fashion is for girls, that simple and functional is better with clothing.

Now in 1998 USA, this is starting to change as part of the fallout from the
so-called sexual revolution. But it's a part of our biology and it's a
integral part of our society, so I don't see it radically changing.

>Over time most men either get used to it and learn to deal with their
>sexuality, or the testosterone level drops off and they don't care.
>I learned to deal with it :) Being married also adds to my level of
>security <shrug>.

Married? That explains a lot; you no longer have to prove your
masculinity. Single men still do, which provides for a certain level of
insecurity since single men are always having to prove their masculinity
and "proper" sexuality. That's *one* reason why there is that whole "notch
on the bedpost" thing.

>Is that a man or a woman, both, neither? What do you mean you used
>to be a man? I only date women that used to be men, they know how to
>make love to a man. Etc.

Gah. That's a small fetish now; given the medical advances by 205x, it
would have to be a thriving fetish niche industry. Egads. And think of
the plot devices that could be used with this...what better way to hide
yourself from everyone than to change not only your appearance but your
sex? Kinda like that one guy/girl in Escape from LA actually.

Wow. Maybe I'll create a one of these characters for my Comic Con SR game,
and give it to a mature player if I find one. That could be fun...

Sexuality, in a mature game, can be very potent. It can be a great plot
device; what started out as a bar pickup ended up as a marriage engagement
for a character of mine.

But here's the crux of the matter:

I think most people avoid it because it can quickly degenerate into
immaturity quickly. I mean, sex that had THAC0's for example. I had a
player recently that while a male, wanted to play a voluptous female that
would and could seduce nearly any man. There was a certain titilation for
this 18-yr old. Needless to say, neither the PC or the player lasted very
long in my game.

It's like racism, which we discussed a while back here. It's an integral
part of the game and can be used to powerful effect, but there's so many
things that can and often do go wrong that most people avoid dealing with
the subject. Too many times you get sex THAC0's and score fests and "I
roll my Charisma, okay, I got a 9, 6, 5, 5, and a 4. Does she go to bed
with me?" Absolute crap.

And to be truthful, a role-played seduction doesn't go over very well also,
simply because a real seduction takes an extended amount of time, time that
could be better spent killing bad guys and making nuyen.

Anyway, it's about time for lunch here.

Erik J.


"Ladies & Gentleman, the newest member of the band, the one and only Spice
Boy, GRUMPY SPICE!!!" <and the crowd goes wild!!!>
Message no. 10
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 15:15:47 -0400
At 11:02 AM 5/5/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Is that a man or a woman, both, neither? What do you mean you used
>to be a man? I only date women that used to be men, they know how to
>make love to a man. Etc.

For a take on that, read "When Gravity Fails" by George Alec Effinger. :)


losthalo@********.comwhileyouarelisteningyourwillingattentionismakingyoumore
andmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome.

"Some things are true whether you believe them or not."
Message no. 11
From: Paul Gettle <pgettle@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 15:40:02 -0400
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At 03:04 PM 5/5/98 -0400, Erik wrote:
>I think most people avoid it because it can quickly degenerate into
>immaturity quickly. I mean, sex that had THAC0's for example.

Of course, that can depend on the maturity level of the gamers in
question. I don't know if I mentioned this back when I posted about
sex w/ THAC0s but back then, the average age of my gaming group was
12, myself included. I wouldn't dare handle the issue that way in my
current games.
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--
-- Paul Gettle (pgettle@********.net)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:11455339 (RSA 1024, created 97/08/08)
625A FFF0 76DC A077 D21C 556B BB58 00AA
Message no. 12
From: Panther <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 15:43:40 +0000
> At 11:02 AM 5/5/98 -0600, you wrote:
> >Is that a man or a woman, both, neither? What do you mean you used
> >to be a man? I only date women that used to be men, they know how to
> >make love to a man. Etc.
>
> For a take on that, read "When Gravity Fails" by George Alec
> Effinger. :)

Not to mention the CP 2020 sourcebook by the same name

Pantherr
Message no. 13
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:47:31 -0600
losthalo wrote:
/
/ At 11:02 AM 5/5/98 -0600, you wrote:
/ >Is that a man or a woman, both, neither? What do you mean you used
/ >to be a man? I only date women that used to be men, they know how to
/ >make love to a man. Etc.
/
/ For a take on that, read "When Gravity Fails" by George Alec Effinger. :)

Is that the one that takes place on the moon and the character starts
off as a male and then changes her sex to female, her mom breeds
dinosaurs, and she owns a house in the "old west"?

Good book. Definitely some fun concepts in that one.

-David
--
"Truth, like a torch, the more it's shook it shines."
- Sir William Hamilton
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 14
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:05:35 -0600
Erik Jameson wrote:
/
/ >Over time most men either get used to it and learn to deal with their
/ >sexuality, or the testosterone level drops off and they don't care.
/ >I learned to deal with it :) Being married also adds to my level of
/ >security <shrug>.
/
/ Married? That explains a lot; you no longer have to prove your
/ masculinity.

Oh, I still have to prove my masculinity, just not to my friends :)

/ Sexuality, in a mature game, can be very potent. It can be a great plot
/ device; what started out as a bar pickup ended up as a marriage engagement
/ for a character of mine.
/
/ But here's the crux of the matter:
/
/ I think most people avoid it because it can quickly degenerate into
/ immaturity quickly. I mean, sex that had THAC0's for example. I had a
/ player recently that while a male, wanted to play a voluptous female that
/ would and could seduce nearly any man. There was a certain titilation for
/ this 18-yr old. Needless to say, neither the PC or the player lasted very
/ long in my game.

Yep. Been there, done that. And I actively tried to argue that it
shouldn't come down to a dice roll. And the funny thing was was that
the GM at the time who reduced it to a dice role was a female. Maybe
she felt that her own personal experiences came down to a dice role
<shrug>.

Anyway, you're right. Sex in RPGs can quickly degenerate.

/ And to be truthful, a role-played seduction doesn't go over very well also,
/ simply because a real seduction takes an extended amount of time, time that
/ could be better spent killing bad guys and making nuyen.

Flirting is a blast to roleplay, if the goal of the GM isn't to get
the PC laid, but to have a good time roleplaying.

There's one PC in my game that is rather innocent and honorable. And
I knew that. So he returns to his hotel room to find a naked woman
waiting in his bed, posed in a come hither manner. Instead of
jumping in he stops and asks her who she is and what she's doing in
his bed. Her answer is that she needed a place to stay and that he
looked nice so she picked the lock to his room. She's willing to
"pay" for a place to sleep for the night. He says she can sleep in
the bed for free and that he'll sleep on the couch, exits, and closes
the bedroom door behind him.

There aren't many men in the world (in her eyes) that would've turned
her down and treated her with respect. Now she's really attracted to
the character and will seek him out and try and seduce him. I expect
the character to respond by putting her off, since he's the type that
would only sleep with a woman he truely loves. It's going to be fun
:)

BTW, she was really waiting in his bed on the behalf of the major
vilian of the adventure to pump the PC for information in a James
Bond kind of way.

-David
--
"Truth, like a torch, the more it's shook it shines."
- Sir William Hamilton
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 15
From: Czar Eggbert <czregbrt@*********.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 15:38:24 -0500
> / At 11:02 AM 5/5/98 -0600, you wrote:
> / >Is that a man or a woman, both, neither? What do you mean you used
> / >to be a man? I only date women that used to be men, they know how to
> / >make love to a man. Etc.
> /
> / For a take on that, read "When Gravity Fails" by George Alec Effinger. :)
>
> Is that the one that takes place on the moon and the character starts
> off as a male and then changes her sex to female, her mom breeds
> dinosaurs, and she owns a house in the "old west"?

Damn that sounds like an old SR character of mine... A transgendered,
starfish cultest, decker with an identity chrisis... After that background
we learned never to use a (i think it was gurps) random background
gererators. :)


From what I know about When Gravity Fails, it is a cyberpunk book set in
some Arab country. But that's about all I know. I use to have a copy of
the computer game a while ago that i got in one of those multipac of games
at the local Kay Bee.


czar

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Czar Eggbert
Ruler, Dark Side of the Moon.
homepage: http://travel.to/czareggbert.empire
mailto: czregbrt@*********.edu
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"I lived my life in a ship in a bottle in a world in a glass jar..."
-Mike Fontaine

"CRACK! SMASH! SHATTER!"
-Helen Stunkard
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Message no. 16
From: Panther <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 16:45:24 +0000
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> losthalo wrote:
> /
> / At 11:02 AM 5/5/98 -0600, you wrote:
> / >Is that a man or a woman, both, neither? What do you mean you
> used / >to be a man? I only date women that used to be men, they
> know how to / >make love to a man. Etc. / / For a take on that,
> read "When Gravity Fails" by George Alec Effinger. :)
>
> Is that the one that takes place on the moon and the character
> starts off as a male and then changes her sex to female, her mom
> breeds dinosaurs, and she owns a house in the "old west"?

Nope. Totally different. When Gravity Fails is set in the Middle
East in 2202, and centers around Marid Audran, a PI.

Pantherr


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Message no. 17
From: Panther <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 16:45:22 +0000
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

> losthalo wrote:
> /
> / At 11:02 AM 5/5/98 -0600, you wrote:
> / >Is that a man or a woman, both, neither? What do you mean you
> used / >to be a man? I only date women that used to be men, they
> know how to / >make love to a man. Etc. / / For a take on that,
> read "When Gravity Fails" by George Alec Effinger. :)
>
> Is that the one that takes place on the moon and the character
> starts off as a male and then changes her sex to female, her mom
> breeds dinosaurs, and she owns a house in the "old west"?

Nope. Totally different. When Gravity Fails is set in the Middle
East in 2202, and centers around Marid Audran, a PI.

Pantherr


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Message no. 18
From: Panther <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 16:47:44 +0000
> losthalo wrote:
> /
> / At 11:02 AM 5/5/98 -0600, you wrote:
> / >Is that a man or a woman, both, neither? What do you mean you
> used / >to be a man? I only date women that used to be men, they
> know how to / >make love to a man. Etc. / / For a take on that,
> read "When Gravity Fails" by George Alec Effinger. :)
>
> Is that the one that takes place on the moon and the character
> starts off as a male and then changes her sex to female, her mom
> breeds dinosaurs, and she owns a house in the "old west"?

Nope. Wrong book totally. When Gravity Fails is set in the Middle
East in 2202, and centers around a PI named Marid Audran.

Pantherr

p.s. Sorry about that last post. stupid me forgot to turn
encryption off :P
Message no. 19
From: Paul Gettle <pgettle@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 17:23:20 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 02:05 PM 5/5/98 -0600, David wrote:
>Yep. Been there, done that. And I actively tried to argue that it
>shouldn't come down to a dice roll. And the funny thing was was that
>the GM at the time who reduced it to a dice role was a female. Maybe
>she felt that her own personal experiences came down to a dice role
><shrug>.

There is a valid arguement for allowing some kind of dice roll. There
are just times when the character is skilled in areas the player lacks
in.

I see it as being akin to, say, the Negotiation roll to try to squeeze
more nuyen out of the Johnson. I've seen plenty of players who
couldn't haggle their way out of a paper bag, and there are GMs who
don't feel they should be penalized for that.

One reason there are 'Social Skills' in many RPGs is so that players
can create characters who are either better or worse 'people persons'
than the players themselves. Another reason is the time factor: many
social situations can be quite lengthy, and while role-playing them
out line by line may let players show off their character's
personality, it may also kill the pace of a game.

The best way I've seen of handling this is by using a mix of line by
line role-play and rolling the dice, depending on the importance of
the particular social situation. For social situations that are of
less importance to the storyline, the player might just do a little
roleplay to give the impression of the characters particular aproach.
The GM then detrmines how good of an approach it is, and asigns the
roll's dificulty bassed off of that. For social scenes critical to the
storyline, make them role play it out word for word, making alowences
some if the character is much more socially skilled than the player.

When making the players role-play it out, the GM could award RP karma
if a socially inept player rises to the level of the char he's
playing, or in the opposite case, a charmer of a player holds himself
back because he's playing a boorish oaf of a character.
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PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:11455339 (RSA 1024, created 97/08/08)
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Message no. 20
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 17:58:44 -0400
At 05:23 PM 5/5/98 -0400, you wrote:
>There is a valid arguement for allowing some kind of dice roll. There
>are just times when the character is skilled in areas the player lacks
>in.

>I see it as being akin to, say, the Negotiation roll to try to squeeze
>more nuyen out of the Johnson. I've seen plenty of players who
>couldn't haggle their way out of a paper bag, and there are GMs who
>don't feel they should be penalized for that.

Exactly. Not to mention, there is more to being intimidating (for example)
than what one is threatening someone with, and one's tone of voice. Body
language counts for a helluva lot, and most SR games aren't LARP. Even
one's proximity to the 'target' counts, etc... If you're willing to stand
toe-to-toe with the guy, literally, and threaten him you're prolly willing
to actually fight him, certain that you can take him out. And I'm sure a
big part of most etiquette skills is as much body language (who to defer
to, who to threaten a little, etc.) as language.

>One reason there are 'Social Skills' in many RPGs is so that players
>can create characters who are either better or worse 'people persons'
>than the players themselves. Another reason is the time factor: many
>social situations can be quite lengthy, and while role-playing them
>out line by line may let players show off their character's
>personality, it may also kill the pace of a game.

Exactly. Think of your typical novel or play: some things are spelled out,
line by line, others are summarized by narration. RPGs are the same.

>When making the players role-play it out, the GM could award RP karma
>if a socially inept player rises to the level of the char he's
>playing, or in the opposite case, a charmer of a player holds himself
>back because he's playing a boorish oaf of a character.

I personally dislike the RP karma award, since it's... rewarding the
character for something the player should be doing anyway. Roleplaying is,
after all, the point of this game. It doesn't make sense for a character
to gain experience and 'luck' because he is so completely 'himself' that day.


losthalo@********.comwhileyouarelisteningyourwillingattentionismakingyoumore
andmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome.

"Some things are true whether you believe them or not."
Message no. 21
From: John Penta <johndevil@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 17:50:35 -0500
>At 03:04 PM 5/5/98 -0400, Erik wrote:
>I think most people avoid it because it can quickly degenerate into
>immaturity quickly. I mean, sex that had THAC0's for example.
<smiles> I know what ya mean. I'll be going from a LOT of people here,
but can't quote em all, so, sorry in advance. But, anyway...Erik's reason
is valid. occasionally that does happen. But, being a 14 year old male
here...One reason I've found most RPGers simply *don't* include sex is
because, well...most are male...to RP a female is...odd, in our minds.
From what I've seen/observed...females in RPGs? at my age(which basically
starts RPG-playing)? Not gonna happen, simply because:A. Most teen RPGers
are the mostly socially-isolated people, and are as such not quite
wanting to think about the possible situations because of the *raw* nerve
it hits. B. We're already concerned that we may never date. We play RPGs
to get AWAY from such things. bringing a female into the game, or
bringing up sex in real detail(done in VAGUE forms, else it, to quote the
DM of my AD&D group, "just feels...*bad* to get into"), exacerbates our
problems of not just relating with the opposite sex(Like that ain't a
problem for single males no matter *what* the age!:)), but with most
people.

Ok, I have a feeling I'll start to ramble here. I'll end now.
John

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 22
From: Alexia Silverstein <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 13:59:30 -0700
---John Penta <johndevil@****.COM> wrote:
<snip>
> From what I've seen/observed...females in RPGs? at my age(which
basically
> starts RPG-playing)? Not gonna happen, simply because:A. Most teen
RPGers
> are the mostly socially-isolated people, and are as such not quite
> wanting to think about the possible situations because of the *raw*
nerve
> it hits. B. We're already concerned that we may never date. <snip>

So that's why when I started playing magic in high school guys looked
at me funny when I brought my own deck in and asked if I could
join...the looked at me even funnier when I won.

I do see what you are saying though about females not getting into
roleplaying and the sort...Alot of girls just aren't into it. But on
the other hand I've always been a tomboy with my head in the clouds,
nose in a book, hating most of my classmates (almost completely
opposite of my best friend Jackie). I've mentioned RPGing to some gals
here in college and they were like what's that? So I guess I really
can see what you mean.

But if it makes you feel any better I got my friend Cara (chick age
almost 14) addicted to Earthdawn.

http://www.sova.net/trish
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 23
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 17:49:36 -0400
At 01:59 PM 5/6/98 -0700, you wrote:

>I do see what you are saying though about females not getting into
>roleplaying and the sort...Alot of girls just aren't into it. But on
>the other hand I've always been a tomboy with my head in the clouds,
>nose in a book, hating most of my classmates (almost completely
>opposite of my best friend Jackie). I've mentioned RPGing to some gals
>here in college and they were like what's that? So I guess I really
>can see what you mean.

Aside from your gender that describes most RPGers.

>But if it makes you feel any better I got my friend Cara (chick age
>almost 14) addicted to Earthdawn.

I don't know why, but this post suddenly made me *very* old. I'm not the
oldest person on the list, but my time, off and on, goes back to 92 or 93,
when *I* was in college. Back then, most of the listmembers were in
college, but I guess with the explosion of the Internet, we've acquired a
lot of high school age members.

But reading this, I suddenly felt like an old man...it's just so rare that
I deal with anyone under 21 anymore unless they are asking "Can I take your
order please?" that this "sudden" burt of youth on RN makes me feel
ancient...

Hey, maybe we should start an old man's club on RN, gotta be at least 25 or
older. You could put "RN Geriatric Brigade" or something in your .sig and
be allowed one post per thread going on about "back in my day, we didn't
have the Internet, we had to read RN with smoke signals..."

*sigh*

Time to get out the walker...

Erik J.

Who is 25 going on 76...
Message no. 24
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 22:06:21 -0400
Once upon a time, Alexia Silverstein wrote;

>But if it makes you feel any better I got my friend Cara (chick age
>almost 14) addicted to Earthdawn.

I have to ask, what is chick age almost 14 in human years?

B>]#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 25
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 22:13:54 -0400
Once upon a time, Erik Jameson wrote;

>But reading this, I suddenly felt like an old man...it's just so rare that
>I deal with anyone under 21 anymore unless they are asking "Can I take your
>order please?" that this "sudden" burt of youth on RN makes me feel
>ancient...

I've been a club boi for half my life now so I still deal with young
uns'. Now realizing they are all too young to date makes me feel really
ancient.

Is this becoming an Immortal Listmembers thread now?

Damn IL's are behind everything!

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

I swear to tell
the Truth, the partial Truth, or something like the Truth.

I am MC23
Message no. 26
From: MgkellyMP5 <MgkellyMP5@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 23:41:47 EDT
In a message dated 98-05-06 22:16:02 EDT, you write:

<< I've been a club boi for half my life now so I still deal with young
uns'. Now realizing they are all too young to date makes me feel really
ancient.
>>

it's worse thinking certain...things about them, and then finding out their
age. you suddenly realize that you are going to Hell for the debauched
thoughts running through your mind.

>>>Is this becoming an Immortal Listmembers thread now?<<<

at least it isn't Immortal Elves again. bastards....

sorry. still bitter about that Munchkin GM i had once throwing the group up
against an All-Powerful IE. with nothing to show for the effort.
Bastard Munchie-GM....

i'll stop now. sorry to Grid-Sec for running OT.

Mgkelly
Message no. 27
From: Alexia Silverstein <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 10:34:26 -0700
---MC23 <mc23@**********.COM> wrote:
>
> Once upon a time, Alexia Silverstein wrote;
>
> >But if it makes you feel any better I got my friend Cara (chick age
> >almost 14) addicted to Earthdawn.
>
> I have to ask, what is chick age almost 14 in human years?
<snip>

Cara is a young lady who is 13 and three quarters years old in human.

http://www.sova.net/trish
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 28
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 14:21:07 -0400
At 11:41 PM 5/6/98 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-05-06 22:16:02 EDT, you write:
>
><< I've been a club boi for half my life now so I still deal with young
> uns'. Now realizing they are all too young to date makes me feel really
> ancient.
> >>
>
>it's worse thinking certain...things about them, and then finding out their
>age. you suddenly realize that you are going to Hell for the debauched
>thoughts running through your mind.

I realized this fact several years ago; I used to lifeguard at a local
waterpark. When I hit 21 I realized that the average age of the fellow
lifeguards was 16 or so and they only wanted to know me so I would buy beer
for them. *That's* the main reason I feel old. But on the other hand, I
feel too young to be dating women who actually are my age. It's not a
healthy position for the ego, let me tell you.

>>>>Is this becoming an Immortal Listmembers thread now?<<<
>
>at least it isn't Immortal Elves again. bastards....

Hehehe...

Hey, the "Respected Elders Relaxation Resort" is now open for business,
right here in sunny southern California. It's got a nice view of the
beach, doesn't have a lot of nasty smog or traffic and best of all, it's
carp-proof. Even GridSec is welcome, provided they are at least 25 years
of age and have either been on the list at some point before 1996 (not
necessarily continuous) or have been playing SR since at least SR1.

Erik J.

Resepected Elders Relaxation Resort Activites Director

"Hey, how about a game of first edition using only the Blue Book?"
Message no. 29
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 15:16:11 -0500
On 7 May 98 at 14:21, Erik Jameson wrote:

> Hey, the "Respected Elders Relaxation Resort" is now open for
> business, right here in sunny southern California. It's got a nice
> view of the beach, doesn't have a lot of nasty smog or traffic and
> best of all, it's carp-proof. Even GridSec is welcome, provided
> they are at least 25 years of age and have either been on the list
> at some point before 1996 (not necessarily continuous) or have been
> playing SR since at least SR1.

Even me?
I promise to leave my jack-boots at the door. :)

--



=================================================================
-DREKHEAD- drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown
Message no. 30
From: Panther <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 16:32:15 +0000
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>
> Hey, maybe we should start an old man's club on RN, gotta be at
> least 25 or older. You could put "RN Geriatric Brigade" or
> something in your .sig and be allowed one post per thread going on
> about "back in my day, we didn't have the Internet, we had to read
> RN with smoke signals..."

Gee, in only four more years I could be a part of that.....

Pantherr

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Message no. 31
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 19:24:45 -0400
At 03:16 PM 5/7/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On 7 May 98 at 14:21, Erik Jameson wrote:
>
>> Hey, the "Respected Elders Relaxation Resort" is now open for
>> business, right here in sunny southern California. It's got a nice

>Even me?
>I promise to leave my jack-boots at the door. :)

Even you qualify Drekhead. And in addition to leaving the jack-boots at
the door, make sure you leave all carp weapons there also; I've just
purchased a bleeding-edge technology carp detector and I'm not afraid to
use it.

Gotta keep the resort safe from all those damn kids with their gangs and
drive-by carpings and whatnot...

Erik J.


Resepected Elders Relaxation Resort Activites Director

"Hey, how about a game of first edition using only the Blue Book?"
Message no. 32
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 22:04:09 -0300
Erik Jameson escreveu:
>
> At 11:02 AM 5/5/98 -0600, you wrote:

> Gah. That's a small fetish now; given the medical advances by 205x, it
> would have to be a thriving fetish niche industry. Egads. And think of
> the plot devices that could be used with this...what better way to hide
> yourself from everyone than to change not only your appearance but your
> sex? Kinda like that one guy/girl in Escape from LA actually.

"Here sirs, we come to ancient ground of accursed springs,
Jusenkyo..."
I've thinking of this since a while back, I mean the "water curses"
from
Ranma 1/2 as Edges or Flaws. With a bit of tweaking (okay, maybe a LOT
of tweaking :) )
They could prove interesting. Any ideas?

Ubiratan
Message no. 33
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 11:51:02 +0100
Erik Jameson said on 14:21/ 7 May 98...

> Hey, the "Respected Elders Relaxation Resort" is now open for business,
> right here in sunny southern California. It's got a nice view of the
> beach, doesn't have a lot of nasty smog or traffic and best of all, it's
> carp-proof. Even GridSec is welcome, provided they are at least 25 years
> of age and have either been on the list at some point before 1996 (not
> necessarily continuous) or have been playing SR since at least SR1.

Damn, I fit both those requirements excapt for the age limit. I look a lot
older than I really am, though, does that count? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Just passing time.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 34
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 09:30:11 -0400
Once upon a time, Gurth wrote;

>Erik Jameson said on 14:21/ 7 May 98...
>
>> Hey, the "Respected Elders Relaxation Resort" is now open for business,
>> right here in sunny southern California. It's got a nice view of the
>> beach, doesn't have a lot of nasty smog or traffic and best of all, it's
>> carp-proof. Even GridSec is welcome, provided they are at least 25 years
>> of age and have either been on the list at some point before 1996 (not
>> necessarily continuous) or have been playing SR since at least SR1.
>
>Damn, I fit both those requirements excapt for the age limit. I look a lot
>older than I really am, though, does that count? :)

Then we can cover for each other. I have the age <sigh> but I have only
been on ShadowRN for over a year (I think, but time blurs at this age).
On some days I still pass for looking like a teenager so that should
average us out.
B>]#

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 35
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 20:17:49 -0500
>
> Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks) (Panther , Thu 11:32)

> > Hey, maybe we should start an old man's club on RN, gotta be at
> > least 25 or older. You could put "RN Geriatric Brigade" or
> > something in your .sig and be allowed one post per thread going on
> > about "back in my day, we didn't have the Internet, we had to read
> > RN with smoke signals..."
>
> Gee, in only four more years I could be a part of that.....
>
> Pantherr

Well, I think the RERR has to be stay more exclusive than that- maybe
make it like the "Struldebrug" club (in Skysmatrix, if my aging mememory
serves) where each 2 years that pass they raise the minimum age by 1
year.
The "Struldebrug" club was for Geriatrics, and the justification on
raising the age requirement was that tech advanced fast enough that
anybody could eventually survive long enough to join, if they were not
stupid or poor (same thing, in that book.) Its memebers were poweful,
like all "eldar statesmen", but also on the edge of kicking of or going
for such advanced medical treatment they were not human (humanity was
only vaugely a requirement for mebership, IIRC).
If FASA would slowdown thier timeline to less than 1/1 (to match more
of the games people actually play), we could base admitance by "SR
age"...


-Mongoose (still doing mail with a "Program Carrier" (: )
Message no. 36
From: Wafflemeisters <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 16:43:09 -0500
> Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks) (Gurth , 5:51)

> > Hey, the "Respected Elders Relaxation Resort" is now open for
business,
<snip>

> Damn, I fit both those requirements excapt for the age limit. I look a lot
> older than I really am, though, does that count? :)

What, no fake ID, Gurth? Damn, that like a right of passage here in da
States (drinking age 21, driving age 16, you do the math).

-Mongoose
Message no. 37
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 10:37:38 +0100
Wafflemeisters said on 16:43/ 9 May 98...

> > Damn, I fit both those requirements excapt for the age limit. I look a lot
> > older than I really am, though, does that count? :)
>
> What, no fake ID, Gurth? Damn, that like a right of passage here in da
> States (drinking age 21, driving age 16, you do the math).

What would I need a fake ID for? Here it's drinking age 16 (usually
less), driving age 18. I passed both several years ago, and I don't do
either of them anyway... :) I'm not _so_ desperate that I'd want to get a
fake ID to get into an old peoples' home, I'll have you know :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Just passing time.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 38
From: Wraith <wraith@************.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 15:19:42 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>


>Wafflemeisters said on 16:43/ 9 May 98...

>> > Damn, I fit both those requirements excapt for the age limit. I look a
lot
>> > older than I really am, though, does that count? :)
>>
>> What, no fake ID, Gurth? Damn, that like a right of passage here in da
>> States (drinking age 21, driving age 16, you do the math).

>What would I need a fake ID for? Here it's drinking age 16 (usually
>less), driving age 18. I passed both several years ago, and I don't do
>either of them anyway... :) I'm not _so_ desperate that I'd want to get a
>fake ID to get into an old peoples' home, I'll have you know :)

See, they've got the right idea...let people learn how to drink BEFORE
learning how to drive...this learn how to drink 5 years after driving is a
bad thing <G>

Wraith
Message no. 39
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 00:22:26 +0100
At 07-Mai-98 wrote Erik Jameson:



>Hey, the "Respected Elders Relaxation Resort" is now open for business,
>right here in sunny southern California. It's got a nice view of the
>beach, doesn't have a lot of nasty smog or traffic and best of all, it's
>carp-proof. Even GridSec is welcome, provided they are at least 25 years
>of age and have either been on the list at some point before 1996 (not
>necessarily continuous) or have been playing SR since at least SR1.

Well, I meet two requirements so I qualify too :)

Creepy how fast time passes by....

--

Barbie
---------------------------------------------------------------
"Who needs horror movies when we have Microsoft?"
--Christine Comaford PC Week 27/9/95

http://www.amigaworld.com/barbie
FAQ keeper of SR_D, the german Shadowrun mailing list.
Amiga RC5 Team effort member.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 40
From: Wyrmy <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Sex & the Single Shadowrunner(thanks)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:04:21 -0500
> > Even GridSec is welcome, provided they are at least 25 years
> >of age and have either been on the list at some point before 1996 (not
> >necessarily continuous) or have been playing SR since at least SR1.
>

Give me eleven more years and I'll have the age thing down.I got SR1 a
month before SR, And wore it to pieces in one month.And
All 96 I lurked. So can join yall at the grown ups table?(yes, I am a
very mature fourteen year old.Can I join the table?)
--
If you are a dreamer come in,
If you are a dreeamer, a wisher,
A liar, a magic jelly bean buyer,
Come In!
-What should be the motto of all internet users.

Further Reading

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Thwap!