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From:	Bull bull@*******.net
Subject:	Shadowbeat and Atmosphere
Date:	Fri, 20 Aug 1999 03:13:32 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 1 Ok, here's something I've been pondering and that I can't figure out.

How is Shadowbeat any different from any of the other sourcebooks to come
out? What gave it and the Neo A books this So called "atmosphere". It had
characters, it had rules for them, and it had gear for them. <shrug> For
the most part, Corp Download does the same thing if I want to play Corp
Characters.

I think somehow, you guys are putting too much emphasis on Shadowbeat and
the Neo A books. For my money, NAGTRL would be useless. There's nothing
in there that I need for my games, ever. Sure, there were some interesting
pieces of data in there, but it was nothing necessary or useful. I need to
know how Credsticks work, I gloss it over and flub it based on what I do
know. NAGTNA was even worse, and better at the same time. I mean, it's
was NO different really than the Target: books, other than it gave slightly
different information.

And Shadowbeat. I love Shadowbeat. But only because I think Rockers and
Reporters and Athletes make for neat Shadowrunner ideas. Not because I
really needed to see that two (three?) page Shadowrun TV guide section. I
like to think I have enough imagination to come up with TV shows.

Basically, unless you guys are having different definitions of what
"Atmosphere" is, what you want is a book that gives you information on
average, day to day 6th world stuff, stuff that is all background detail
and not really game useful.

Interesting read, but I wouldn;t buy it. Niether would any of my players.
Ok, *I* might buy a copy of it. Or *one* of my players might buy a copy of
it. I'd read it. They might read it. Once. And no one else in my group
would buy it. Why? It's unnecisarry. While two or three of my group
might buy a Target book for the game info, and most of my group will buy
Man and Machine and Cannon Companion the second it comes out.

Guys, lets face it. The interest isn;t there. Not really. Like I've said
elsewhere, make it up.

I've never seen any other game system that details stuff like you want.
That type of info ends up in Novels, because that's what you really want.
YOu want day to day life info, which is really boring, dry reading unless
you're talking about a story of some kind. And that's not gonna fly as a
Sourcebook.

And no one said you have to read ALL the novels. And at $6 bucks a pop
new, and you can often find them a LOT cheaper used, buy a couple. get
Wolf and Raven if you can. If you have time to read a sourcebook cover to
cover, you can take a little time out to read a novel.

Hell, read the short story in the book. Read the "And so it came to
pass..." section in SR3 (Or whatever they call it now). That right there
gives more than enough info and flavor, IMO.

Ok, Ok... You won't know that there's a TV show called the "Odd Coven",
which parodies the old Odd COuple show, and is about a Hermetic and a
Shaman living together. Whoopee. I can live without that.

Oh dear, you might not know the names of all the Urban Brawl teams. heaven
forbid.

Oh look, wouldn;t you know, you're entire campign is ruined because there
ISN'T really a Cleveland Baseball team named the Spiders, but you put them
in your campiagn, and now you have to start over!

<sigh>

Ok, I'm done.

Bull
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bull@*******.net ===== bull22@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
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From:	Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject:	Shadowbeat and Atmosphere
Date:	Fri, 20 Aug 1999 11:05:56 -0500

Message no. 2 > Ok, here's something I've been pondering and that I can't figure out.
>
> How is Shadowbeat any different from any of the other sourcebooks to come
> out? What gave it and the Neo A books this So called "atmosphere". It
> had
> characters, it had rules for them, and it had gear for them. <shrug> For
> the most part, Corp Download does the same thing if I want to play Corp
> Characters.
>
Well, I'm not of the opinion that the Neo-As and Shadowbeat were the best
sourcebooks ever, but I'll still address your complaints.

> I think somehow, you guys are putting too much emphasis on Shadowbeat and
> the Neo A books. For my money, NAGTRL would be useless. There's nothing
> in there that I need for my games, ever.
>
DocWagon response times?

> Sure, there were some interesting
> pieces of data in there, but it was nothing necessary or useful. I need
> to
> know how Credsticks work, I gloss it over and flub it based on what I do
> know. NAGTNA was even worse, and better at the same time. I mean, it's
> was NO different really than the Target: books, other than it gave
> slightly
> different information.
>
Would you say the same thing about VR 2 or R2?? You see, before those books
came out, I glossed over all the stuff too because I couldn't stand the old
system. Now, I don't have too, and I'm much happier with the game. So people
don't like to gloss over the little details. They have just as much right as
you to see what they want in print. They might not get it, but it's still
their right.

> And Shadowbeat. I love Shadowbeat. But only because I think Rockers and
> Reporters and Athletes make for neat Shadowrunner ideas. Not because I
> really needed to see that two (three?) page Shadowrun TV guide section. I
> like to think I have enough imagination to come up with TV shows.
>
> Basically, unless you guys are having different definitions of what
> "Atmosphere" is, what you want is a book that gives you information on
> average, day to day 6th world stuff, stuff that is all background detail
> and not really game useful.
>
Is your game about running into buildings and blowing shit up, or is it
about roleplaying a character that runs into buildings and blows shit up. I
like to have a good amount of background material for my characters.
Background detail is game useful, if you roleplay. From other things you've
said, I believe you do roleplay and you have a vivid imagination. So,
wouldn't you be inspired to more craziness for you characters if you were
presented some of this stuff? I usually am inspired for different campaign
ideas from reading the different books, even if they don't take place where
the book is. For instance, much of my Bug City campaign actually came from
the Aztlan book (horribly, horribly changed). I think any book that inspires
ideas is a good book, whether it has "game useful" info or not?

> Interesting read, but I wouldn;t buy it. Niether would any of my players.
> Ok, *I* might buy a copy of it. Or *one* of my players might buy a copy
> of
> it. I'd read it. They might read it. Once. And no one else in my group
> would buy it. Why? It's unnecisarry. While two or three of my group
> might buy a Target book for the game info, and most of my group will buy
> Man and Machine and Cannon Companion the second it comes out.
>
That's because you're more into rules than story. Others aren't. I'm sorry
every SR product doesn't exactly fit your needs, but the last six months of
product hasn't fit mine one iota (I already owned the basic SR rules, I
didn't need another copy). Does that make it bad? For me, yes. For you, no.
Different books for different people. I don't consider an atmosphere book
unnecessary. I do consider a book collecting all the guns that I already own
unnecessary. We want different things. Hopefully this game is big enough to
allow for both of us to get the products we want. (and there's no rule that
says you HAVE to buy every book - if you don't want the atmosphere book,
don't buy it).

> Guys, lets face it. The interest isn;t there. Not really. Like I've
> said
> elsewhere, make it up.
>
> I've never seen any other game system that details stuff like you want.
>
Legend of the Five Rings has two such books. Both were very useful. And,
according to a recent discussion on the L5R list, both were highly
recommended to a new player. Makes you think there might be something to
them.

> That type of info ends up in Novels, because that's what you really want.
> YOu want day to day life info, which is really boring, dry reading unless
> you're talking about a story of some kind. And that's not gonna fly as a
> Sourcebook.
>
> And no one said you have to read ALL the novels. And at $6 bucks a pop
> new, and you can often find them a LOT cheaper used, buy a couple. get
> Wolf and Raven if you can. If you have time to read a sourcebook cover to
> cover, you can take a little time out to read a novel.
>
Well, that's my issue with the novels. My issue with the novels is they're
generally poorly written and I can't slog through them. SO I won't read any.
Makes it hard to pick them up and discover all this wonderful information.

> Hell, read the short story in the book.
>
A description of a run? That's hardly atmosphere.

> Read the "And so it came to
> pass..." section in SR3 (Or whatever they call it now).
>
History? That's not atmosphere either.

> That right there
> gives more than enough info and flavor, IMO.
>
> Ok, Ok... You won't know that there's a TV show called the "Odd Coven",
> which parodies the old Odd COuple show, and is about a Hermetic and a
> Shaman living together. Whoopee. I can live without that.
>
> Oh dear, you might not know the names of all the Urban Brawl teams.
> heaven
> forbid.
>
> Oh look, wouldn;t you know, you're entire campign is ruined because there
> ISN'T really a Cleveland Baseball team named the Spiders, but you put them
> in your campiagn, and now you have to start over!
>
> <sigh>
>
> Ok, I'm done.
>
You know, I was reading along in your response and generally seeing your
point (if not agreeing with it) up till these last couple paragraphs. Calm
down. There's nothing to get that upset about. It's only a sourcebook that
you don't have to buy. Consider it saving money.

From:	Mark A Shieh SHODAN+@***.EDU
Subject:	Shadowbeat and Atmosphere
Date:	Fri, 20 Aug 1999 13:18:51 -0400 (EDT)

Message no. 3 Mark Fender <markf@******.com> writes:
> > I think somehow, you guys are putting too much emphasis on Shadowbeat and
> > the Neo A books. For my money, NAGTRL would be useless. There's nothing
> > in there that I need for my games, ever.
> >
> DocWagon response times?

I remember trying to find those a couple of years ago.
They've got to be in the main book... no, wait... Seattle
Sourcebook? Hmm. How about Lone Star? Maybe New Seattle?

NAGRL was low on the list of books. That's what made
Shadowbeat superior to NAGRL, IMHO. Shadowbeat had focus. If you
wanted to know about media, you could generally find it in Shadowbeat.
If you wanted to know about something that happened to be printed in
NAGRL, you had to remember that it was there. NAGRL had a section on
fashion, and then bits and pieces of SR goodies that didn't fit
anywhere.

I don't want another NAGRL. I enjoy reading it, but hate
trying to use it. I want an atmosphere book that's the definitive
guide to topic X. sports and entertainment? (Shadowbeat?) something
even broader, like media? (Shadowbeat), Fashion? (that's the
impression I got out of NAGRL)... I don't want an atmosphere book to
wander around all over the place.

Or how about this? Atmosphere books seem popular with GMs.
Make Shadowbeat 2 be an Adventure/Atmosphere book, similar to
adventure/location books? Have a series of runs involving sports as
an excuse to slip in material on how sports in 206x work. I'm
thinking of something like NAN or Paradise Lost, or combining Mob War
and the Underworld Sourcebook into one book.

Mark

From:	Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject:	Shadowbeat and Atmosphere
Date:	Sat, 21 Aug 1999 14:16:07 CST

Message no. 4 >From: Mark Fender <markf@******.com>

>DocWagon response times?

The GM can just make that up. It all depends on how far away you are from a
DocWagon station anyway. (As well as traffic, gangers, monsters from the
Sound, etc)

>Is your game about running into buildings and blowing shit up, or is >it
>about roleplaying a character that runs into buildings and blows >shit up.
>I like to have a good amount of background material for my >characters.
>Background detail is game useful, if you roleplay. From >other things
>you've said, I believe you do roleplay and you have a >vivid imagination.
>So, wouldn't you be inspired to more craziness for >you characters if you
>were presented some of this stuff? I usually am >inspired for different
>campaign ideas from reading the different >books, even if they don't take
>place where the book is. For instance, >much of my Bug City campaign
>actually came from the Aztlan book >(horribly, horribly changed). I think
>any book that inspires ideas is >a good book, whether it has "game
useful"
>info or not?
>

I haven't noticed that lack myself. I come up with an adaquate background
IMO (it's usually, only about a page, but then I can write my own life story
in less space, so...). But There is quite a bit of extrapolating one can do
If you try hard enough. I find that more fun anyway...

>That's because you're more into rules than story. Others aren't. I'm >sorry
>every SR product doesn't exactly fit your needs, but the last >six months
>of product hasn't fit mine one iota (I already owned the >basic SR rules, I
>didn't need another copy). Does that make it bad? >For me, yes. For you,
>no. Different books for different people. I > don't consider an
>atmosphere book unnecessary. I do consider a book >collecting all the guns
>that I already own unnecessary. We want >different things. Hopefully this
>game is big enough to allow for both >of us to get the products we want.
>(and there's no rule that says you >HAVE to buy every book - if you don't
>want the atmosphere book,
>don't buy it).
>

Now now, even the new rule books can provide character background. For
example, what if one of your players is a gun afficionado (sp) (I'm
surprised more SR characters aren't, but hey, most are talented amateurs
so...) Besides, those books are for updating the old stuff for the new
rules (as many folks have said many times, many ways). As for the
atmosphere book, I'm sorry, I just don't see a need.

>Legend of the Five Rings has two such books. Both were very useful. >And,
>according to a recent discussion on the L5R list, both were >highly
>recommended to a new player. Makes you think there might be >something to
>them.

I dunno, I've seen other attempts at this in other games and they came off
as dry and boring. I just skipped over them.

>Well, that's my issue with the novels. My issue with the novels is >they're
>generally poorly written and I can't slog through them. SO I >won't read
>any. Makes it hard to pick them up and discover all this >wonderful
>information.
>

Sigh. Great another "are novels really so bad?" thread. Personally, I
believe some are good, some are bad. Ask the list for opinions on a
particular novel before you buy. Some of them are enjoyable.

> > Hell, read the short story in the book.
> >
>A description of a run? That's hardly atmosphere.

Tut Tut. Read it again. Animal mentioned some of his background (which
helped him decide to do the run), what it's like to be a troll and what he
does for fun. Sounds like what you are shooting for.

>
> > Read the "And so it came to
> > pass..." section in SR3 (Or whatever they call it now).
> >
>History? That's not atmosphere either.

Sigh. History affects the present. Think on that. Think people aree mad
at the NAN for taking their land, thinmk that adds tension? What about the
rise in magic? Think that would affect fashion trends? Do you really need
a book telling you how to dress as an elf-wannabee? Use your imagination.
And if you have trouble consult with the novels (see above).
>

>You know, I was reading along in your response and generally seeing your
>point (if not agreeing with it) up till these last couple paragraphs. Calm
>down. There's nothing to get that upset about. It's only a sourcebook that
>you don't have to buy. Consider it saving money.
>

Actually, if Bull's like me, he's tired of this thread and the (sometimes)
unreasonable requests for "atmosphere". I know I am. :D

Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	Geoffrey Haacke knight_errant30@*******.com
Subject:	Shadowbeat and Atmosphere
Date:	Sat, 21 Aug 1999 14:19:28 CST

Message no. 5 >From: Mark A Shieh <SHODAN+@***.EDU>

> Or how about this? Atmosphere books seem popular with GMs.
>Make Shadowbeat 2 be an Adventure/Atmosphere book, similar to
>adventure/location books? Have a series of runs involving sports as
>an excuse to slip in material on how sports in 206x work. I'm
>thinking of something like NAN or Paradise Lost, or combining Mob War
>and the Underworld Sourcebook into one book.

Hey now. This idea could work. It's even a comprimise. Good idea Mark!!!

Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	Adam J adamj@*********.html.com
Subject:	Shadowbeat and Atmosphere
Date:	Sat, 21 Aug 1999 19:00:47 -0600

Message no. 6 At 14:19 8/21/99 -0600, Geoffrey Haacke wrote:
>>From: Mark A Shieh <SHODAN+@***.EDU>
>
>> Or how about this? Atmosphere books seem popular with GMs.
>>Make Shadowbeat 2 be an Adventure/Atmosphere book, similar to
>>adventure/location books? Have a series of runs involving sports as
>>an excuse to slip in material on how sports in 206x work. I'm
>>thinking of something like NAN or Paradise Lost, or combining Mob War
>>and the Underworld Sourcebook into one book.
>
>Hey now. This idea could work. It's even a comprimise. Good idea Mark!!!

Problem with this is it isn't clear whether the book is for just GMs, or
both players and GMs.. Mike mentioned this in regards to the NAN books at
Gencon, and isn't keen on the idea of "mixed" books, from what I could tell.

Adam
--
< adamj@*********.html.com / http://shadowrun.html.com/tss >
< ICQ# 2350330 / ShadowFAQ: http://shadowrun.html.com/shadowfaq >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / Shadowrun Creative Resources >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Co-Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >

From:	Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject:	Shadowbeat and Atmosphere
Date:	Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:28:00 -0500

Message no. 7 > I don't want another NAGRL. I enjoy reading it, but hate
> trying to use it. I want an atmosphere book that's the definitive
> guide to topic X. sports and entertainment? (Shadowbeat?) something
> even broader, like media? (Shadowbeat), Fashion? (that's the
> impression I got out of NAGRL)... I don't want an atmosphere book to
> wander around all over the place.
>
> Or how about this? Atmosphere books seem popular with GMs.
> Make Shadowbeat 2 be an Adventure/Atmosphere book, similar to
> adventure/location books? Have a series of runs involving sports as
> an excuse to slip in material on how sports in 206x work. I'm
> thinking of something like NAN or Paradise Lost, or combining Mob War
> and the Underworld Sourcebook into one book.
>
No thanks. I prefer my source material stay in one book and my adventures in
another. Besides, that sort of causes the exact problem you were talking
about, having to remember where the hell the info was in NAGRL. Will it be
easier to find scattered throughout an adventure?

From:	Mark Fender markf@******.com
Subject:	Shadowbeat and Atmosphere
Date:	Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:16:10 -0500

Message no. 8 > >DocWagon response times?
>
> The GM can just make that up. It all depends on how far away you are from
> a
> DocWagon station anyway. (As well as traffic, gangers, monsters from the
> Sound, etc)
>
I can't believe some said this. We're talking Shadowrun here, the game with
rules for EVERYTHING. Not that this is bad, mind you. It's just interesting
that a list that discusses rules till the cows come home would choose to
"just make this one up."

> >Is your game about running into buildings and blowing shit up, or is >it
> >about roleplaying a character that runs into buildings and blows >shit
> up.
> >I like to have a good amount of background material for my >characters.
> >Background detail is game useful, if you roleplay. From >other things
> >you've said, I believe you do roleplay and you have a >vivid imagination.
>
> >So, wouldn't you be inspired to more craziness for >you characters if you
>
> >were presented some of this stuff? I usually am >inspired for different
> >campaign ideas from reading the different >books, even if they don't take
>
> >place where the book is. For instance, >much of my Bug City campaign
> >actually came from the Aztlan book >(horribly, horribly changed). I think
>
> >any book that inspires ideas is >a good book, whether it has "game
> useful"
> >info or not?
> >
>
> I haven't noticed that lack myself. I come up with an adaquate background
>
> IMO (it's usually, only about a page, but then I can write my own life
> story
> in less space, so...). But There is quite a bit of extrapolating one can
> do
> If you try hard enough. I find that more fun anyway...
>
> >That's because you're more into rules than story. Others aren't. I'm
> >sorry
> >every SR product doesn't exactly fit your needs, but the last >six months
>
> >of product hasn't fit mine one iota (I already owned the >basic SR rules,
> I
> >didn't need another copy). Does that make it bad? >For me, yes. For you,
> >no. Different books for different people. I > don't consider an
> >atmosphere book unnecessary. I do consider a book >collecting all the
> guns
> >that I already own unnecessary. We want >different things. Hopefully this
>
> >game is big enough to allow for both >of us to get the products we want.
> >(and there's no rule that says you >HAVE to buy every book - if you don't
>
> >want the atmosphere book,
> >don't buy it).
> >
>
> Now now, even the new rule books can provide character background. For
> example, what if one of your players is a gun afficionado (sp) (I'm
> surprised more SR characters aren't, but hey, most are talented amateurs
> so...) Besides, those books are for updating the old stuff for the new
> rules (as many folks have said many times, many ways). As for the
> atmosphere book, I'm sorry, I just don't see a need.
>
As I don't see a need for the Cannon Companion. I don't plan on buying it. I
haven't harped on this, yet all the people who don't see a need for
atmosphere do. I'm not quite sure I get it.

> >Legend of the Five Rings has two such books. Both were very useful. >And,
>
> >according to a recent discussion on the L5R list, both were >highly
> >recommended to a new player. Makes you think there might be >something to
>
> >them.
>
> I dunno, I've seen other attempts at this in other games and they came off
>
> as dry and boring. I just skipped over them.
>
No wonder you don't see the need.

> >Well, that's my issue with the novels. My issue with the novels is
> >they're
> >generally poorly written and I can't slog through them. SO I >won't read
> >any. Makes it hard to pick them up and discover all this >wonderful
> >information.
> >
>
> Sigh. Great another "are novels really so bad?" thread. Personally, I
> believe some are good, some are bad. Ask the list for opinions on a
> particular novel before you buy. Some of them are enjoyable.
>
I have no doubt they are enjoyable. I just can't find the time, inclination,
or money to really get into them. So I ignore them. That is all.

> > > Hell, read the short story in the book.
> > >
> >A description of a run? That's hardly atmosphere.
>
> Tut Tut. Read it again. Animal mentioned some of his background (which
> helped him decide to do the run), what it's like to be a troll and what he
>
> does for fun. Sounds like what you are shooting for.
>
Okay, granted. Perhaps what I'm trying to say is that story touched on
running and very little else. That is all SR does. I'd like to see it expand
a little. It's a rich, vibrant setting with a good history. There's plenty
of room for other things. Let's see some explored.

> >
> > > Read the "And so it came to
> > > pass..." section in SR3 (Or whatever they call it now).
> > >
> >History? That's not atmosphere either.
>
> Sigh. History affects the present. Think on that. Think people aree mad
>
> at the NAN for taking their land, thinmk that adds tension? What about
> the
> rise in magic? Think that would affect fashion trends? Do you really
> need
> a book telling you how to dress as an elf-wannabee? Use your imagination.
>
> And if you have trouble consult with the novels (see above).
>
No, I don't need a book telling me what people wear. But, is it cool to be
an elf wannabe? Is that the latest trend? You couldn't tell me, because the
culture is not detailed. Shadowrunners exist in a vacuum. There is no world
to work in. Too many times I see the team on a break and they don't know
what to do. There's nothing to do except shadowrun. Let's expand the
background a little.
> >
>
> >You know, I was reading along in your response and generally seeing your
> >point (if not agreeing with it) up till these last couple paragraphs.
> Calm
> >down. There's nothing to get that upset about. It's only a sourcebook
> that
> >you don't have to buy. Consider it saving money.
> >
>
> Actually, if Bull's like me, he's tired of this thread and the (sometimes)
>
> unreasonable requests for "atmosphere". I know I am. :D
>
Fine so everyone's tired with this thread. Never mind that I've enjoyed all
of your comments immensely and that this is the most interesting discussion
I've been a part of in a while. I'm willing to shut up about it. However,
when people wish to end a thread, the normal way is not to attack it again.
That just causes more words to be written.

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