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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: "Jeremy T. Fox" <fox@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRN Digest - 6 Oct 1995 to 7 Oct 1995 - Special issue
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 17:42:44 -0500
Gurth:

>> Or they're using magic (OOOOHH! That word again! :) in the same was as the
>> folks down in Amazonia, but instead of trees they grow people with it :)

You would think such a procedure would merit mention is a SR sourcebook.
I wonder what the drain would be on a spell that allows someone to
clone millions of people at once. :)

Robert Watkins:

> Or they didn't get two thirds of their population wiped out by VITAS, like
> everyone else. And it could also be that the figures aren't just
> Amerindians, or that the definition of Amerindian is a bit looser than
> current terminology.

The population of the NAN nations (including Tsimshian but excluding
Aztlan and Tir Tairngire) as mentioned in official SR source material is
over 100 million people. The population of the US today is about 250
today, and I think Canada has around 30 million people. Thus, are we to
believe that one out of every three Americans and Canadians is a native
american?


> The population figures ARE acceptable, given a slightly looser definition,

They are acceptable if your definintion of a Native American is someone
whose ancestors came from Europe, Africa, or Asia. Unfortunately, modern
demographers tend to use slightly more restrictive definition. :)

> and given that they didn't loose much population,

Hey, I thought they were all locked in concentration camps where many
died! The views of Johnny Cochran aside, recent history has showed that
time in concentration camps have a negative impact on population growth.


> and have had several
> years of relative peace.

About thirty, or one generation.

> What it DOES mean, though, is that they are going
> through a baby boom... (Ever looked at the population growth figures for
> post world-war II?)

Yeah, I have, and I don't think they showed a 5000% increase in
population over fifty years. What I think is that you haven't. Or maybe
you just have no idea about real population figures on this
continent.


Jeremy T. Fox Baker College
fox@****.edu Rice University
(713) 630-8024 6320 S. Main St.
Student Computer Consultant Houston TX, 77005
Message no. 2
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRN Digest - 6 Oct 1995 to 7 Oct 1995 - Special issue
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 10:18:01 +0930
Jeremy T. Fox wrote:
>
> > and given that they didn't loose much population,
>
> Hey, I thought they were all locked in concentration camps where many
> died! The views of Johnny Cochran aside, recent history has showed that
> time in concentration camps have a negative impact on population growth.

No... the concentration camps the Amerindians were in were not the
extermination camps the Nazis used. By and large, not many died in the
concentration camps, and FASA makes it clear in the various histories that
their numbers were practically untouched compared to the hideous losses
inflicted by the waves of VITAS.

> > and have had several
> > years of relative peace.
>
> About thirty, or one generation.

Two... The second one is just starting.

> > What it DOES mean, though, is that they are going
> > through a baby boom... (Ever looked at the population growth figures for
> > post world-war II?)
>
> Yeah, I have, and I don't think they showed a 5000% increase in
> population over fifty years. What I think is that you haven't. Or maybe
> you just have no idea about real population figures on this
> continent.

You're using a two-generation definition of aboriginality... the NAN is
using an infinite-generation definition (which means if you can show you
had ONE full-blooded ancestor, even if that was 10,000 years ago (slight
exagerration) you can get in). That really changes the rules. Not to
mention the large numbers of "pinkskin" tribes in the more open states.

Well, I assume you're using a two-generation definition... I remember
noting that once as the government standard when I was looking into it.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 3
From: Charles McKenzie <kilroy@**.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRN Digest - 6 Oct 1995 to 7 Oct 1995 - Special issue
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 06:01:15 -0500
On Sun, 8 Oct 1995, Robert Watkins wrote:
>
> You're using a two-generation definition of aboriginality... the NAN is
> using an infinite-generation definition (which means if you can show you
> had ONE full-blooded ancestor, even if that was 10,000 years ago (slight
> exagerration) you can get in). That really changes the rules. Not to
> mention the large numbers of "pinkskin" tribes in the more open states.

Didn't the tribes allow Metahumans to become members? I don't have NAN, but
I remember this from some other source somewhere. As I recall, Tir
Tangerine(spelling it from memory is hopeless) was a Tribal state that
succeeded.

Mabye.

Kilroy

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1
GCS d- s+: a19 C++>$(++++) US(L+++) L E---->+++ W++ N++ o? K-? w+
!O M-- V? PS+ PE(-) Y+ PGP- t 5 X R++(+++) !tv b++ DI+++ D++ G e*
h++ !r--- !z+
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
http://yar.cs.wisc.edu:80/~kilroy/
Message no. 4
From: Dave Stone <dstone@******.DREAMSCAPE.COM>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRN Digest - 6 Oct 1995 to 7 Oct 1995 - Special issue
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 07:01:43 -0400
On Sun, 8 Oct 1995, Charles McKenzie wrote:
> Didn't the tribes allow Metahumans to become members? I don't have NAN, but
> I remember this from some other source somewhere. As I recall, Tir
> Tangerine(spelling it from memory is hopeless) was a Tribal state that
> succeeded.

Hm...this is from memory, but...Salish-Shide(I know, not spelled
right...;) has a few tribes, though its quite anti-anglo. If you have
Indian Blood, you CAN get in. However, in the past, it wasn't like
that. A few tribes were able to get started(Cascade Orks, IIRC, among
others), but a group of elves didn't like the small impact they had on
the Council, so they left, and started Tir Tairngire. They were quite
racist against anglos and metas at the beginning...now they're just
racist against anglos, and not nearly as bad as some other places...;)

Dave

| David Stone -- dstone@******.dreamscape.com |
| "Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he |
| proclaim himself, bannered across the sky in fire..." |
Message no. 5
From: Doug Miller <enigma@********.JPL.NASA.GOV>
Subject: Re: SHADOWRN Digest - 6 Oct 1995 to 7 Oct 1995 - Special issue
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 17:17:48 +0000
On Sun, 8 Oct 1995, Dave Stone wrote:

> Hm...this is from memory, but...Salish-Shide(I know, not spelled
> right...;) has a few tribes, though its quite anti-anglo. If you have
> Indian Blood, you CAN get in. However, in the past, it wasn't like
> that. A few tribes were able to get started(Cascade Orks, IIRC, among
> others), but a group of elves didn't like the small impact they had on
> the Council, so they left, and started Tir Tairngire. They were quite
> racist against anglos and metas at the beginning...now they're just
> racist against anglos, and not nearly as bad as some other places...;)

Actually, the elves had other reasons for first joining and then ceceding
from the NAN. Read the novel "Worlds without end".

> Dave

Doug

Further Reading

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