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Message no. 1
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Shadowrong - A run gone bad.
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 23:57:08 -0500 (EST)
OK, I just had to post this.
We have a regular gaming group that plays every Sunday night. Over the last
several weeks, it has been getting larger, and larger, until we peaked at 13
players last week.
Well, to make a long story short, some of the players decided to "weed out
the deadwood" and proceeded to sabotage several players.
The run was designed as a serious bloodbath. The runners were sent to the
desert to bring back the testes of a Juggernaut for a crazy trog wizard.
They were being para-dropped into the staging area.
The parachute drop was when it all hit the fan.
The saboteurs - Team Real Man - decided to make sure several players chutes
never opened. The first one just dropped like a rock. The second one was a
rigger, and had a drone on standby. It was a Wandjina, and he proggrammed it
to home in on him.
He needed to roll an 18 to grab it, and he did. That was when the Team Real
Man mage sent a fire elemental into the drone's gastank. End of story.
The fight vs, the Juggernauts was truly brutal, but the team was well
prepared, and managed to bring down one. They then loaded the testes into a
truck and headed for home.
Team Real Man's explosives expert had wired the other vehicles in the
caravan, and detonated them on the way out. New total - 4 dead, 1 stranded.
Team Looney - A one man team made up of a Renraku RC cyborg managed to cut
Team Real Man's brakes, and messed them up a bit.
Overall, it was an unbelievable example of backstabbing, bloodshed, and
mayhem. It caused a lot of in-party fighting, but overall it was one heck of
a ride!!
Anybody else got similar stories?



>>>>I was a teenage mutant ninja when teenage mutant ninjas weren't
cool.<<<<
Message no. 2
From: "Damion Milliken" <dam01@***.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Shadowrong - A run gone bad.
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 22:27:38 +1000 (EST)
Steven A. Tinner writes:

> [Team Real Men vs. Team Loonie vs. Team Munchkin]

ROTFL! Very funny.

> Anybody else got similar stories?

Yeah. In my game, there is this one player (who's a couple of years younger
than us - it's a long story how we came to be playing with him), who is a
die-hard munchkin and a try-hard loser. (I think he's OK, mostly, but we all
pay out on him all the time.) Anyway, it's the teams running joke to kill
off his characters in interesting and creative ways. And he seems to
actually like it and go along.

One of my favourites was when the team decided to break into a military
cybertech research facility and steal some tac computers to get impanted in
their sammy's. (Dumb idea, but I had the teams cyber clinic 'just happen to
mention the fact that the facility had received a shipment of tac computers
recently', and the players actually planend and carried out a run on the
place.) Anyway, as expected, the run turned real bad real fast. The team
rigger bit it on the way in. The rest of them made it out, with what they
_thought_ were the tac computers <evil GM grin>. However, the response team
from the nearby (read 10 blocks or so away) airbase turned up as the team was
escaping. The team did the dash into a nearby civilian home. They saw some
military ground units arriving, and decided that they needed a diversion.
The team told this guy to go into the garage and hotwire and car, then drive
round the front and pick the rest of the team up, after which they'd all
escape (this guy had electronics). While the patsy was stealing a car and
getting ready to ram it through the front of the garage, the rest of the
team prepared to sneak out the back way. Come the timely diversion, the team
scurried away, to leave this guy in the car to 'face the music' (of rapidly
spinning miniguns).

Anyway, next character. This time the team is scuba-diving into the Tir in
order to avoid the border security (not all _that_ bad an idea). Anyway,
this guy's character was broke, so the team's explosive expert offered to buy
him a set of scuba gear. And the sop accepted it. Anyway, suffice to say
that his character made it roughly 200m offshore before succumbing to a
nasty case of oxygen starvation (coupled with air-tank shrapnel).

Next character. This one didn't actually die by the teams planned method
(rather, he died by taking on 3 ant warrior spirits in hand to hand by
himself, him being a mage with unarmed combat 3 and strength 2 [would you
believe he actually gave one a light stun?]). The teams explosive expert
(this guy goes through a lot of plastique) 'acquired' this guys armour
jacket one day. The next day, the jacket had substantially less protective
value, and a lot more explosive value. Would have been fun.

Next character. An ex-Tir paladin, on the run from the border security.
Returns to Seattle with the team via their handy dandy rigger contact. All
the team goes home/the local bar/etc. This guy's character is left all by
itself. He thinks, hmmm, time to learn a new spell. He goes off to find a
talismonger (having no contacts in the city). When the legitimate
talismonger won't teach him spells or sell him spell formula unless he can
provide ID and certification that he is a registered magician (remember -
Tir citizen), he asks me "how do I get those?". I tell him that they are
often issued by Lone Star. Off we go to Lone Star HQ downtown Seattle.
Roll up to the front desk and ask, "can I get a lisence to practice
magic?". The person behind the counter replies that this is possible, if
he'll just hand over his SIN. "Um, I don't have one of those", he says...

Next character. The team gets into a fight with an old nemesis (and
friends). This guy, wanting to prove himself, tells the rest of the team
that he'll run out and take on the nemesis himself, while the rest of the
team back him up. "Yeah, sure" they all say.

Next character...

Other than this, there is the team's magician (the oldest surviving
character, and the scaredest too - he has multiple nicknames with the team,
usually being along the lines of "wimp, wuss, piker" and similar). This guy
has earned so much cred that he didn't know what to do with it. Until that
is, he started to lend it out to the sammy's to get cyber installed with.
At 5% interest per _month_. Stupid, shortsighted sammy's. Anyways, after a
while most of the team owes this guy big time, hundreds of thousand of
dollars, and their jobs start to dry up a little and the pay gets less
(could be something to do with that military intelligence specialist
blackmailing them and all - after all, astral backup was the first to arrive
on the scene of the player's run against the military clinic, and the
runners never, not even once, in the entire run and trip home, checked the
astral). No-one has yet done anything, but when this character's player
isn't about there are discussions of 'offing the mage and not having to pay
him back'. I'm waiting.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au

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Message no. 3
From: Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Shadowrong - a run gone bad.
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 96 12:57:00 PDT
:>>Well, to make a long story short, some of the players decided to
:>>"weed out
:>>the deadwood" and proceeded to sabotage several players.

:Understand that this group consists of players ranging in ages from 12
:- 27. It's essentially an open game, with all the insanity that
:entails. We try to kkep things loose and easy, but occaisionally there
:are players that simply are taking up space, and time. These are the
:goofballs that are sorting their pocket change and ammunition while the
:team is in the middle of a run.

Why did you let such players join in the first place ? As GM you should
have known when your number of players was getting out of hand, why let
more join ? Why let them join when they haven't proved their gaming
maturity (a 12-year old ? Please), you've got lot's of players, you can
afford to be choosy. Do you go through character generation with them ?
Did you discuss it with your other players when someone else wanted to
join ? Maybe they had objections ?

:Their inexperience isn't the problem - it's their immaturity, and
:unwillingness to learn. While I couldn't exactly (as GM) encourage the
:assassins, I did nothing to stop them from solving what was becoming a
:large problem.

A problem that you, as GM, had let get out of hand. You should have
solved it yourself by discussing with your players, not by just letting
some elite bunch decide who should play and who shouldn't. It was your
responsibility to solve the issue, not your players, who acted out of
character for certain.

:This was essentially our groups solution to several problem players.

Your group never should have had to solve the problem. When they jump to
actions like that you should have sorted it out yourself, not acted as
co-conspirator in the actions to follow. You're as guilty of bad GMing
as they are of Bad Playing.

Getting rid of problem players is this easy:

"Your style of play is not welcome here, I suggest that you find a
different group"

:It was an ugly solution, but it worked. Those players that were more
:interested in screwing the team rather than working on a serious run
:have flown on back to their games of Magic:The Gathering, or Warhammer
:40K,

Great Resume's. For what reason did you let people join a full game when
they had little experience of roleplaying?

:and left me a solid core of dedicated role-players.

Who obviously didn't object when you overburdened your game with players
that you weren't able to handle, and of course voiced no objection when
things got out of hand, consciously or unconsciously.

You're not very good at judging trouble are you ? I can see it happening
between players when the group reaches 8, and can react to deal with it.
13 ? How did anything get done ?

Richard.
O--------------------------------------------------------------------O
\Food for thought lies in the\Richard_M_Conroy@\Roadkill on the Info \
\depth of an inedible brick. \ccm.ir.intel.com \-rmation SuperHighway\
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Message no. 4
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Shadowrong - A run gone bad.
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:33:53 -0500 (EST)
No-one has yet done anything, but when this character's player
>isn't about there are discussions of 'offing the mage and not having to pay
>him back'. I'm waiting.

That's great! A mage/loan shark! Boy will my players be pissed when I
implement that one!!



The Way of the Hero

In each truly heroic struggle there is a time of commitment.
A time when human energies fail, yet more is required . . . and more is given.
Few are equal to that task.
Often that effort ends in failure, for victory is not always for the brave.
But where a man might falter, these ones do not, not while life and spirit
endure.
Not until the last measure is given.
To transcend the man, become the hero.
Message no. 5
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Shadowrong - a run gone bad.
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:59:09 -0500 (EST)
>Why did you let such players join in the first place ? As GM you should
>have known when your number of players was getting out of hand, why let
>more join ? Why let them join when they haven't proved their gaming
>maturity (a 12-year old ? Please), you've got lot's of players, you can
>afford to be choosy. Do you go through character generation with them ?
>Did you discuss it with your other players when someone else wanted to
>join ? Maybe they had objections ?

That wasn't an option. The game is held at a local college, and they have a
non-exclusive policy. When I run an "official" college game I have to allow
anyone in who wants in. Plus, my core players have a nasty habit of bringing
in freinds and relatives.

>A problem that you, as GM, had let get out of hand. You should have
>solved it yourself by discussing with your players, not by just letting
>some elite bunch decide who should play and who shouldn't. It was your
>responsibility to solve the issue, not your players, who acted out of
>character for certain.

Again, see above. I was kind of screwed here. Playing a bllodbath was the
quickest, easiest solution. And none of the players complained much, so it
worked.

>Your group never should have had to solve the problem. When they jump to
>actions like that you should have sorted it out yourself, not acted as
>co-conspirator in the actions to follow. You're as guilty of bad GMing
>as they are of Bad Playing.

How was I a co-conspirator. If a PC decides on a course of action, I need a
real good excuse to stop that action, otherwise, he takes it, and lives with
the consequences. I did not take any sides, and I played fairly with
everyone involved. To not do so would have been bad GMing, you're correct,
but that was not the case.

>Who obviously didn't object when you overburdened your game with players
>that you weren't able to handle

When did I say I couldn't handle them? I recall saying the group was large.
But everything went smoothly, as far as the actual game went. I don't have
any trouble tracking that large of a team, since I've been doing it for so long.

>You're not very good at judging trouble are you ? I can see it happening
>between players when the group reaches 8, and can react to deal with it.
>13 ? How did anything get done ?

Whoah big fella! Easy with the abuse! Again see my explanation, and try to
see it from my side.
As far as handling problem players by asking them to leave. I don't like
that heavy handed "My Way or the Highway" approach to RP.
I started RP when I was 11 years old. I played a total munchkin, and looking
back, I'm sure I annoyed a lot of more experienced players, but had one of
them simply told me to piss off, I would never have had the chance to learn.
Have you ever heard about paying forward? I can't really pay back those who
taught me to RP, so instead I choose to teach new players that are willing
to learn.
I am currently working as an instructor at a college for teeens at this
school. I have a group of 20 students that I am helping to learn more about
role-playing, and game design and control. Everyone needs a chance to learn.
If you like running an elitist game, fine. But Don't expect everyone to do
the same.
Some of the players have begun to get the picture - Case in point - Codis
started as a totally munchkin Sammie. He wanted nothing more out of the game
than a chance to use his sniper rifle. After seeing how lame that course of
action was, he has ditched the weapon, and moved into trying to be a
fixer/armorer. He's much happier selling weapons now than using them.

I'm sorry you feel so strongly about how this game unfolded, but that's
probably my part for not explaining the situation in more detail. I
apologize, I'm new to this mailing list concept.
However, I feel you jumped to a few too many conclusions regarding my role
in this "Shadowrong". I agree it was a nasty run. I don't plan to repeat it
if possible, but overall it had as many or more positive effects as bad.



The Way of the Hero

In each truly heroic struggle there is a time of commitment.
A time when human energies fail, yet more is required . . . and more is given.
Few are equal to that task.
Often that effort ends in failure, for victory is not always for the brave.
But where a man might falter, these ones do not, not while life and spirit
endure.
Not until the last measure is given.
To transcend the man, become the hero.
Message no. 6
From: Richard M Conroy <Richard_M_Conroy@***.ir.intel.com>
Subject: Re: Shadowrong - a run gone bad
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 96 10:35:00 PDT
:That wasn't an option. The game is held at a local college, and they
:have a non-exclusive policy. When I run an "official" college game I
:have to allow anyone in who wants in. Plus, my core players have a
:nasty habit of bringing in freinds and relatives.

Ok, I see what you mean. kill -9 rant

:How was I a co-conspirator.

My point was that in order to conduct many of the clandestine activities
that you described, a player would have to describe them to you as GM in
private, and the rolls done in secret. You had an option then to
consider whether his activities were in character, and could have
addressed it then. I generally require some sort of justification for
Player Killing, and to me, trimming down the group is a Player decision,
not a Character one.

:I don't have any trouble tracking that large of a team, since I've been
:doing it for so long.

With large teams, I've noticed that new/inexperienced/nuisance players
get bored quickly and start looking for attention or a bit of limelight.
Seems a bit more prevalent in cyber~type games IMHO, it's just been my
experience with gaming (about 7 years or so).

:Have you ever heard about paying forward? I can't really pay back those
:who taught me to RP, so instead I choose to teach new players that are
:willing to learn.

Yes, I regularly induct new players with my older players, most of which
were introduced to gaming through me in the first place. I'm very
selective about who I choose. *I'm* willing to teach new players, but
not at the expense of my group's enjoyment of the game.

:If you like running an elitist game, fine. But Don't expect everyone to
:do the same.

It's not elitist. I've seen a lot of elitist games & players, and I
despised them so much that I went and got new players for myself. The
elitists I'm talking about are the kind of WoD gobshites who insist that
there's is the only form of true roleplay blah blah, which really only
works out as some sort of groupie, snobbery thing. I'm very generous
with my time for new players, work things with my old players to
integrate them into the game quickly, but I've just no time for the
others. Even then, I have to draw the line at some new players (the kind
that aren't willing or able), you know the kind that you take 2 hours of
group time to explain the whole concept of roleplaying & good character
foundation, and he still understand (and that guy had roleplayed
before).

:I'm sorry you feel so strongly about how this game unfolded,

It's a knee~jerk reaction to your description of indiscriminate
character killing. I've had it done to my characters lots of times
without a good reason. I've seen it done to others too many times, and
I've seen too many good games come to an end over it. Then I've been
forced to listen through the perpetrators boast about it afterward
(assholes & munchies to the last man). A lot of games have this problem,
but my experience has seen that cyber games (especially CP2020) are
particularly prone to it, and I've been working hard to ditch the image.

:but that's probably my part for not explaining the situation in more
:detail. I apologize, I'm new to this mailing list concept. However, I
:feel you jumped to a few too many conclusions

Yeah I did. My apologies too. Your organisation sounds like a great idea
for introducing players, but IMHO the power it takes away from a GM
makes it difficult to run a proper campaign, which generally require a
stable player base.

Just .02g of my VisaCard.

Richard.
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\Food for thought lies in the\Richard_M_Conroy@\Roadkill on the Info \
\depth of an inedible brick. \ccm.ir.intel.com \-rmation SuperHighway\
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Message no. 7
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Shadowrong - a run gone bad.
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:26:16 +0100
Steven A. Tinner said on 11:59/20 Aug 96...

> That wasn't an option. The game is held at a local college, and they have a
> non-exclusive policy. When I run an "official" college game I have to allow
> anyone in who wants in. Plus, my core players have a nasty habit of bringing
> in freinds and relatives.

Where's the problem? Just go and sit somewhere else, like in the house of
one of the players. If you let the regular players know, they'll show up
if you ask me, and it's not open to everybody who happens to walk in
anymore.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
See the amazing tourist-eating dolphins!
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 8
From: bluewizard@*****.com (Steven A. Tinner)
Subject: Re: Shadowrong - a run gone bad
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:09:45 -0500 (EST)
>My point was that in order to conduct many of the clandestine activities
>that you described, a player would have to describe them to you as GM in
>private, and the rolls done in secret. You had an option then to
>consider whether his activities were in character, and could have
>addressed it then. I generally require some sort of justification for
>Player Killing, and to me, trimming down the group is a Player decision,
>not a Character one.

Yeah, I see what you mean. Had another PC done it. I would most likely have
stopped it, but Angel had an adequate reason for his behavior.

>With large teams, I've noticed that new/inexperienced/nuisance players
>get bored quickly and start looking for attention or a bit of limelight.
>Seems a bit more prevalent in cyber~type games IMHO, it's just been my
>experience with gaming (about 7 years or so).

That's very true. Usually If that starts happening, I will attempt to split
the group into smaller, more manageable squads, so that each player gets the
chance for his PC to shine through.

>Yeah I did. My apologies too. Your organisation sounds like a great idea
>for introducing players, but IMHO the power it takes away from a GM
>makes it difficult to run a proper campaign, which generally require a
>stable player base.

Without a doubt. I also run a very serious campaign in my home. That group
has been restricted to five players, and each one of them is extremely
serious, and rewarding to work with.



The Way of the Hero

In each truly heroic struggle there is a time of commitment.
A time when human energies fail, yet more is required . . . and more is given.
Few are equal to that task.
Often that effort ends in failure, for victory is not always for the brave.
But where a man might falter, these ones do not, not while life and spirit
endure.
Not until the last measure is given.
To transcend the man, become the hero.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Shadowrong - A run gone bad., you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.