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Message no. 1
From: Cybertroll cybertroll@******.crosswinds.net
Subject: Shadowrun and Butality (WAS: Getting nasty to your PCs)
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 05:29:18 +0300
Ok since I started that subject with my example I think I have to make a
few comments here....

First of all, RPG games (and especially SR which is a violent game) are
supposed to be played by mature people. I never agreed with the 10 years
old and up rule in most of RPG game books. RPG games deal a lot with
death and brutality. Especially SR which is a darker version of our
world. Look at the characters we are playing. We are not heroes. We are
criminals. In the last session my Troll character actually killed 15
Aztlan soldiers in no time. Even if I am fighting against Aztlan
opression in Amazonia (that's our campaign) which is somekind of a noble
cause, I still had to murder 15 innocent soldiers who had no idea about
what's going on. I didn't kill monsters, I killed human beings.
In the world of Shadowrun there is no such thing as censorship in the
scenes described. It's a world full of criminality and filth. People are
raised in the gutter. Runners are people that tried to escaped from the
gutter by enforcing the law of the jungle. The mighty will survive. When
one walks in the streets of Seattle, he will see crimes happening all
the time. Murders, robberies, rapes... he will see people wasted by
drugs... he will see people leaving next to the garbage just because
they are homeless... reminds you of something? At least where I live in
Athens (Greece) seeing people dying from drugs in the subways is not a
very rare sight. Why try to cover those scenes?
I don't understand why some people are against describing rape scenes
in an RPG game. Aren't these things happen in real life? If the group is
mature enough to handle it (at least 18 and over) then why try to avoid
such things?
I am not sick, nor do I enjoy rapes or murders. And I still insist on
the fact that RPG is only a game. But as a GM I try to make my players
feel like they are living in such a dark world (which is not much
different than the one we are living now anyway). And the most important
thing is, that I try to make them feel really what crime and brutality
is. To get a small taste of real world. Cause heroes and noble causes
maybe true in our world, but most of the times, are achieved through
many dirty acts, especially in a battle or war. Let's face it, our
characters are not saints. They are criminals. My troll is a criminal.
Your mage is a criminal. Your rigger, decker, whatever is a criminal. If
u don't feel confortable, better stop playing this game to protect
yourself. SR can damage your soul more than you can imagine, if you
cannot handle violence.

Cybertroll

PS: this rant doesn't apply only to Shadowrun actually. It is almost for
all RPG games. And as I said RPG games require a certain maturity to be
played. If u lack such maturity and understanding of our world, leave
RPGs alone for your own good. And if someone asks me if RPG games are
dangerous, I will reply to him: "Yes they are if a player doesn't have
the maturity to ditinguish reality from fantasy".
--

E-Mail : cybertroll@********.gr
ICQ# : 7483400 but u have to beg to get my authorization!! :-)))
Homepage: http://www.crosswinds.net/athens/~cybertroll - WOA98 Photos!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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U'll find the servers in http://www.othernet.org and in
http://tavern.home.pages.de/ (#tavern's homepage made by Soth)
Message no. 2
From: NightRain nightrain@***.com.au
Subject: Shadowrun and Butality (WAS: Getting nasty to your PCs)
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:08:26 +1000
----- Original Message -----
From: Cybertroll <cybertroll@******.crosswinds.net>
To: The ShadowRN Mailing List <shadowrn@*********.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 12:29 PM
Subject: Shadowrun and Butality (WAS: Getting nasty to your PCs)


> Ok since I started that subject with my example I think I have to make a
> few comments here....
>
> First of all, RPG games (and especially SR which is a violent game) are
> supposed to be played by mature people. I never agreed with the 10 years
> old and up rule in most of RPG game books. RPG games deal a lot with
> death and brutality. Especially SR which is a darker version of our

Wrong. RPG games _can_ deal alot with death and brutaility. They don't
have to. I played lots of RPG's when I was younger and I didn't give two
hoots about 'darkness' and 'brutality'. I didn't care about my characters
history. I just wanted to roll 18's for my stats and have a good old
dungeon romp. I didn't get into the reality of such a situation or explore
the effects of my actions upon the poor surviving kobolds.

I just had some simple fun. And there was nothing at all wrong with it.
If that's how people want to play, be they 10 years old or 60. There is no
age limit.

You can say that there is an age limit on some of the themes that can and
should be explored, but that is an element of the players and gamemasters,
not the game itself.

> world. Look at the characters we are playing. We are not heroes. We are
> criminals. In the last session my Troll character actually killed 15
> Aztlan soldiers in no time. Even if I am fighting against Aztlan
> opression in Amazonia (that's our campaign) which is somekind of a noble
> cause, I still had to murder 15 innocent soldiers who had no idea about
> what's going on. I didn't kill monsters, I killed human beings.

Yep. And when you're young it has about the same impact as Bruce Willis
killing heaps of terrorists in Die Hard. Fun to watch, and no bearing on
reality whatsoever. There don't have to be themes explored.

Hell, I explore them with my games, but other don't. More luck to them.

> In the world of Shadowrun there is no such thing as censorship in the
> scenes described. It's a world full of criminality and filth. People are

I don't agree. How many times have you read a full scene in any Shadowrun
material that involved a full on rape scene or a sex scene. Jak Koke came
close in his first novel, but it didn't go all the way. It was scensored
because if it went too far into anything like that, it would drive people
away. Maybe even stop the author from writing it if he is uncomfortable
with it.

> raised in the gutter. Runners are people that tried to escaped from the
> gutter by enforcing the law of the jungle. The mighty will survive. When
> one walks in the streets of Seattle, he will see crimes happening all
> the time. Murders, robberies, rapes... he will see people wasted by
> drugs... he will see people leaving next to the garbage just because
> they are homeless... reminds you of something? At least where I live in
> Athens (Greece) seeing people dying from drugs in the subways is not a
> very rare sight. Why try to cover those scenes?

Because some people don't want angst. They want a good old action packed
romp. Who knows what they want, but the world that exists has to allow
people to play however they want. There is nothing stopping people playing
and exploring the drugs, and rape. But there shouldn't be stuff stopping
people from having a good time either, if it's not their cup of tea.

> I don't understand why some people are against describing rape scenes
> in an RPG game. Aren't these things happen in real life? If the group is
> mature enough to handle it (at least 18 and over) then why try to avoid
> such things?

For the same reason that people don't talk about rape IRL. They are
uncomfortable with it.

> I am not sick, nor do I enjoy rapes or murders. And I still insist on
> the fact that RPG is only a game. But as a GM I try to make my players
> feel like they are living in such a dark world (which is not much
> different than the one we are living now anyway). And the most important

More luck to you. But your bracketed comment brings to mind exactly what I
am trying to say. People play RPG's sometimes, because it is an escape
from the real world.

> thing is, that I try to make them feel really what crime and brutality
> is. To get a small taste of real world. Cause heroes and noble causes
> maybe true in our world, but most of the times, are achieved through
> many dirty acts, especially in a battle or war. Let's face it, our
> characters are not saints. They are criminals. My troll is a criminal.
> Your mage is a criminal. Your rigger, decker, whatever is a criminal. If
> u don't feel confortable, better stop playing this game to protect
> yourself. SR can damage your soul more than you can imagine, if you
> cannot handle violence.

Yep. Exactly, so why play with stuff that will harm you, if you can just
not play with it and still have a good time?

People don't have to be super mature in character role players to role
play.

> Cybertroll
>
> PS: this rant doesn't apply only to Shadowrun actually. It is almost for
> all RPG games. And as I said RPG games require a certain maturity to be
> played. If u lack such maturity and understanding of our world, leave
> RPGs alone for your own good. And if someone asks me if RPG games are
> dangerous, I will reply to him: "Yes they are if a player doesn't have
> the maturity to ditinguish reality from fantasy".

Exactly right. So again, why should people play RP things that are
dangerous or uncomfortable or whatever. They can if they can handle it or
want to handle it, but if they don't, you don't have the right to say they
should or that they should not play otherwise.

NightRain.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
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| ============================== |
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| email:nightrain@***.com.au |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 3
From: Mad Hamish h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
Subject: Shadowrun and Butality (WAS: Getting nasty to your PCs)
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 15:56:30 +1000
At 05:29 1/09/99 +0300, Cybertroll wrote:
>Ok since I started that subject with my example I think I have to make a
>few comments here....
>
> First of all, RPG games (and especially SR which is a violent game) are
>supposed to be played by mature people.

To a point. I first played a rpg at 14.

> I never agreed with the 10 years old and up rule in most of RPG game books.

Depends on the game. I wouldn't run Shadowrun in gritty mode with a 10 year
old, or Vampire at all. I'd run D&D or Earthdawn in heroic fantasy mode but
not Earthdawn in Horror mode.

I'd definately run Marvel Super Heroes (advanced) for a 10 year old but
wouldn't run Dark Champions.

> RPG games deal a lot with death and brutality.

Depends on the game. I haven't had to many people die in Champions, Marvel
Super Heroes or a few other games.

In any case you might want to look at fairy tales. Hansel & Gretal,
Cinderella, heck check out The Wizard of Oz.

> Especially SR which is a darker version of our
>world. Look at the characters we are playing. We are not heroes. We are
>criminals.

So were the A-Team & The Dukes of Hazard (sp?). I was cheering for them as
a 10 year old.

> In the last session my Troll character actually killed 15
>Aztlan soldiers in no time. Even if I am fighting against Aztlan
>opression in Amazonia (that's our campaign) which is somekind of a noble
>cause, I still had to murder 15 innocent soldiers who had no idea about
>what's going on.

Sorry but killing enemy soldiers during a war is _not_ murder. You also
might want to consider how Aztlan soldiers wouldn't know what aztlan is doing.

> I didn't kill monsters, I killed human beings.

And?
Cowboys and Indians, westerns etc all do it.

> In the world of Shadowrun there is no such thing as censorship in the
>scenes described.

That's one way of representing it. You can take other approaches.

> It's a world full of criminality and filth. People are
>raised in the gutter. Runners are people that tried to escaped from the
>gutter by enforcing the law of the jungle. The mighty will survive.

If they're lucky.

> When
>one walks in the streets of Seattle, he will see crimes happening all
>the time. Murders, robberies, rapes...

No he won't. Not if he's in a decent section of the city anyway. You think
that the bad areas of modern cities are a lot better than the SR version?

I doubt that there are too many places in the world where you'd just wander
past them killing people in the street. As for robberies and rape, much
better done in private _and_ most rapes are not by casual strangers in any
case.

> he will see people wasted by
>drugs... he will see people leaving next to the garbage just because
>they are homeless... reminds you of something? At least where I live in
>Athens (Greece) seeing people dying from drugs in the subways is not a
>very rare sight. Why try to cover those scenes?
> I don't understand why some people are against describing rape scenes
>in an RPG game. Aren't these things happen in real life?

Yeah, that doesn't mean that I want them to be happening on screen in my
game. I play Shadowrun (and other roleplaying games) for enjoyment. I don't
get enjoyment from hearing about rapes.

> If the group is
>mature enough to handle it (at least 18 and over) then why try to avoid
>such things?

If a group is mature enough to handle such things they might also be mature
enough to realise that they don't want to be exposed to it in a game which
is _meant_ to be enjoyable.

> I am not sick, nor do I enjoy rapes or murders. And I still insist on
>the fact that RPG is only a game. But as a GM I try to make my players
>feel like they are living in such a dark world (which is not much
>different than the one we are living now anyway).

Fine, if that's what your players want.
If they'd prefer a lighter approach then you probably should go along with
that.

> And the most important
>thing is, that I try to make them feel really what crime and brutality
>is. To get a small taste of real world. Cause heroes and noble causes
>maybe true in our world, but most of the times, are achieved through
>many dirty acts, especially in a battle or war.

In a battle it's very much "do unto him as he'd do unto me, but do it first"
Is it nice, no? Is it dirty? well, that's open to question.

> Let's face it, our characters are not saints. They are criminals.

Probably in almost all campaigns, of course so would have been a fair few
famous Americans if their side had lost the Civil War...

> My troll is a criminal.
>Your mage is a criminal. Your rigger, decker, whatever is a criminal. If
>u don't feel confortable, better stop playing this game to protect
>yourself. SR can damage your soul more than you can imagine, if you
>cannot handle violence.

There's a difference between handling violence, handling 'cinematic'
violence and rape, torture etc.
>
>Cybertroll
>
>PS: this rant doesn't apply only to Shadowrun actually. It is almost for
>all RPG games. And as I said RPG games require a certain maturity to be
>played. If u lack such maturity and understanding of our world, leave
>RPGs alone for your own good. And if someone asks me if RPG games are
>dangerous, I will reply to him: "Yes they are if a player doesn't have
>the maturity to ditinguish reality from fantasy".
--
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
h_laws@******.net.au
Message no. 4
From: Ignacio De Lucas morrisjila@*******.com
Subject: Shadowrun and Butality (WAS: Getting nasty to your PCs)
Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 06:27:37 GMT
(SNIP)

My friends the one and ONLY reason for wich to play an RPG is for FUN and if
a ten year old has fun with a "light" version of Shadowrun, its OK let him
play, besides, I Know Shadowrun or Vampire, or Wraith or any other dark game
is not suitable for kids, but i also agree that is not necesary tu put
violence so vivid to have fun, even if playing SR if your players want that
GO AHEAD if the group has agreed thats the way they want to play its ok but
its no a MUST. But if the group wants a lighter game and they like th SR
universe they cant play because it must be played in extreme violence
basis.

My GM has a group in which no player has a firearms grater than 2
they rarely get into any gunfights everithing is charisma, You are going to
tell me it is not Shadowrun because it is not violent. Then a person who has
never been mugged or raped or asaulted doesnt live in this word beause it is
not violent either.

IMHO anywais

ATTE el MORRIS

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 5
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Shadowrun and Butality (WAS: Getting nasty to your PCs)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 05:03:01 -0400
> My friends the one and ONLY reason for wich to play an RPG is for FUN and
if
> a ten year old has fun with a "light" version of Shadowrun, its OK let him
> play, besides, I Know Shadowrun or Vampire, or Wraith or any other dark
game
> is not suitable for kids, but i also agree that is not necesary tu put
> violence so vivid to have fun, even if playing SR if your players want
that
> GO AHEAD if the group has agreed thats the way they want to play its ok
but
> its no a MUST. But if the group wants a lighter game and they like th SR
> universe they cant play because it must be played in extreme violence
> basis.
>
> My GM has a group in which no player has a firearms grater than 2
> they rarely get into any gunfights everithing is charisma, You are going
to
> tell me it is not Shadowrun because it is not violent. Then a person who
has
> never been mugged or raped or asaulted doesnt live in this word beause it
is
> not violent either.
>
> IMHO anywais
>
> ATTE el MORRIS
>
> ______________________________________________________

Yeah. I started roleplaying when I was 10. And look how well I turned out.
Message no. 6
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Shadowrun and Butality (WAS: Getting nasty to your PCs)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 05:12:13 -0400
> I doubt that there are too many places in the world where you'd just
wander
> past them killing people in the street.

This is the most hopelessly naive statement I've ever heard.

> Yeah, that doesn't mean that I want them to be happening on screen in my
> game. I play Shadowrun (and other roleplaying games) for enjoyment. I
don't
> get enjoyment from hearing about rapes.

I won't even open my mouth about this again. I think my opinion on this
issue is well known. I have to keep saying to myself, "It takes all types."
That allows me to drown out the voice that says, "These people are so very,
very funny."

> There's a difference between handling violence, handling 'cinematic'
> violence and rape, torture etc.

Is there? Is there really? Why, exactly, is that? And where does that line
get drawn? When is murder okay and not okay? What age is too young to kill?
In game and out? For what reasons are rape and torture justified? In game
and out?

You see black and white. You seem to think there's a line in between them.
Well, there isn't. There is only grey. Sometimes I feel, as I get older,
that everything gets more grey, until sooner or later, I won't even be able
to tell the difference anymore. I don't know if that's good or bad, but I
sure as hell would rather that than this naive inexperience that some people
seem to display.


[begin : sig]
[setsig : abortion_engine]

"and i woke into the clear black daylight
and saw the world converted, changed while
i slept into one machine, one apparatus of
viscera and metal, that devoured our
children, made them unwhole, unclean; one
mass of clockwork that served no purpose
other than to poison and destroy our young
and yet-unborn. I looked and saw the world
as one massive abortion engine.

"and when i looked again, i saw the world had
not changed at all. it was i who had changed;
the world had always been thus. but i had
been blinded by the good, and only in
darkness could i see."

[end : sig]
Message no. 7
From: James Dening james@************.force9.co.uk
Subject: Shadowrun and Butality (WAS: Getting nasty to your PCs)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:25:11 +0100
>>Yeah. I started roleplaying when I was 10. And look how well I turned out.

Very true - you've definitely grown into a mature and seasoned player and
pundit over the last 2 years.... ;-))








JOKE!
Message no. 8
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Shadowrun and Butality (WAS: Getting nasty to your PCs)
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 17:39:35 -0400
> >>Yeah. I started roleplaying when I was 10. And look how well I turned
out.
>
> Very true - you've definitely grown into a mature and seasoned player and
> pundit over the last 2 years.... ;-))
>
You missed a zero or two.

:)
Message no. 9
From: Mad Hamish h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
Subject: Shadowrun and Butality (WAS: Getting nasty to your PCs)
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 13:39:05 +1000
At 05:12 7/09/99 -0400, abortion_engine wrote:
>> I doubt that there are too many places in the world where you'd just wander
>> past them killing people in the street.
>
>This is the most hopelessly naive statement I've ever heard.

I should state that I'm talking about crime rather than warfare, rebellions
etc.

I should _also_ point out that I was replying to your comment

" When one walks in the streets of Seattle, he will see crimes happening all
the time. Murders, robberies, rapes..."

Now I feel that in context my comment makes more sense.
>
>> Yeah, that doesn't mean that I want them to be happening on screen in my
>> game. I play Shadowrun (and other roleplaying games) for enjoyment. I
>don't
>> get enjoyment from hearing about rapes.
>
>I won't even open my mouth about this again. I think my opinion on this
>issue is well known. I have to keep saying to myself, "It takes all types."
>That allows me to drown out the voice that says, "These people are so very,
>very funny."
>
>> There's a difference between handling violence, handling 'cinematic'
>> violence and rape, torture etc.
>
>Is there? Is there really?

Of course there's a difference. Superman does commit violence, I've never
seen him rape or torture.
Ditto for Bugs Bunny.

Oh, and you might want to read up on the Geneva convention and see what
they allow.

> Why, exactly, is that?

Because different ways of presenting things have different effects on
people. Consider the battle scenes in Saving Private Ryan versus the battle
scenes in Star Wars and see which one's affect people more.

Consider the rape scene in The Accused and compare it to a fist fight in
the A-Team.
They have different impacts on people.

> And where does that line get drawn?

That's up to the people who write the particular book, film the particular
movie or are GMing & playing the particular game.

> When is murder okay and not okay?

Real world or in RPGs?
Real world very few. RPGs and fiction it varies depending upon your exact
definition of murder and also the genre you are in.

> What age is too young to kill?

All of them.

>In game and out? For what reasons are rape and torture justified?

Rape is never justified to happen. It might be justified to include the
issue in particular fiction or roleplaying sessions but it is _also_
justified to choose _NOT_ to read those books or play in those settings.

> In game and out?
>
>You see black and white.

No, I state that you don't _have_ to play Shadowrun in the manner that you
state it has to be played. That doesn't mean that I see everything in black
and white terms, it means that I don't agree with your statement.

> You seem to think there's a line in between them.
>Well, there isn't. There is only grey. Sometimes I feel, as I get older,
>that everything gets more grey, until sooner or later, I won't even be able
>to tell the difference anymore. I don't know if that's good or bad, but I
>sure as hell would rather that than this naive inexperience that some people
>seem to display.

What? You state that people are naive because they
a) play roleplaying games for enjoyment
b) believe that particular things happening will stop them enjoying the game
c) don't want to play in games where those particular things happen on screen.

Or because people argue that you can _choose_ to play Shadowrun in a
lighter world setting than the one that you present.

In either case I don't see how it justifies you assumption of naivity.
--
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
h_laws@******.net.au
Message no. 10
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Shadowrun and Butality (WAS: Getting nasty to your PCs)
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 00:21:17 -0400
> At 05:12 7/09/99 -0400, abortion_engine wrote:
> >> I doubt that there are too many places in the world where you'd just
wander
> >> past them killing people in the street.
> >
> >This is the most hopelessly naive statement I've ever heard.
>
> I should state that I'm talking about crime rather than warfare,
rebellions
> etc.

Yeah, me too. Statement stands.

> I should _also_ point out that I was replying to your comment
>
> " When one walks in the streets of Seattle, he will see crimes happening
all
> the time. Murders, robberies, rapes..."
>
> Now I feel that in context my comment makes more sense.

Well, yes. I still disagree, but I suppose it makes more sense.

> >
> >> Yeah, that doesn't mean that I want them to be happening on screen in
my
> >> game. I play Shadowrun (and other roleplaying games) for enjoyment. I
> >don't
> >> get enjoyment from hearing about rapes.
> >
> >I won't even open my mouth about this again. I think my opinion on this
> >issue is well known. I have to keep saying to myself, "It takes all
types."
> >That allows me to drown out the voice that says, "These people are so
very,
> >very funny."
> >
> >> There's a difference between handling violence, handling 'cinematic'
> >> violence and rape, torture etc.
> >
> >Is there? Is there really?
>
> Of course there's a difference. Superman does commit violence, I've never
> seen him rape or torture.
> Ditto for Bugs Bunny.

Well, I'm not what one might consider a Superman officionado--wrong time,
wrong place--but I just don't see a difference, from an absolute standpoint.
But then again, despite the fact that I seldom agreed with him, I have a
great deal more respect for Mohandas Gandhi than I do for people who think a
little violence is okay, but not too much.

> Oh, and you might want to read up on the Geneva convention and see what
> they allow.

Strangely enough, I'm somewhat aware of the limitations of the Geneva
Convention.

> > Why, exactly, is that?
>
> Because different ways of presenting things have different effects on
> people. Consider the battle scenes in Saving Private Ryan versus the
battle
> scenes in Star Wars and see which one's affect people more.
>
> Consider the rape scene in The Accused and compare it to a fist fight in
> the A-Team.
> They have different impacts on people.

Right. But what is flawed, the presentation, or the perception? Or the act
itself. See Gandhi, above.

> > And where does that line get drawn?
>
> That's up to the people who write the particular book, film the particular
> movie or are GMing & playing the particular game.

Right. I always agree that the players and the GM draw the lines in their
games. And if a player doesn't like it, he can always leave. If the GM
doesn't like it, he can always say, "That's it. End game." Those are their
rights.

> > When is murder okay and not okay?
>
> Real world or in RPGs?
> Real world very few. RPGs and fiction it varies depending upon your exact
> definition of murder and also the genre you are in.

For you. Many people feel killing is justified in self-defense, or in
wartime. Some think it's okay when you feel like it or need to. And some
don't think it's ever okay. See Gandhi, above.

> > What age is too young to kill?
>
> All of them.

Good call. But above, you said there were some, "very few," but some
instances where killing was justified. How does this sync?

> >In game and out? For what reasons are rape and torture justified?
>
> Rape is never justified to happen. It might be justified to include the
> issue in particular fiction or roleplaying sessions but it is _also_
> justified to choose _NOT_ to read those books or play in those settings.

Hmm. I'll think about that. Of course, I suppose, as with most things, it
depends on your definition of rape. I've known a few girls who thought it
was okay to pressure men into sex when they didn't want it. That seems to be
held as okay by many people, even when a modicum of force is used, until
they think hard about it. Of course, the reverse is generally held to be
horrible. Talk about sexist double-standards. For a male, it's date rape.
For a female, it's "getting what she wants."

Okay, I'll shut up about that topic, no matter the provocation. It's a
sensitive one, and we're all here for the fun of it, right?

> > In game and out?
> >
> >You see black and white.
>
> No, I state that you don't _have_ to play Shadowrun in the manner that you
> state it has to be played. That doesn't mean that I see everything in
black
> and white terms, it means that I don't agree with your statement.

I still feel you have some black/white/grey issues to deal with. See
hypocracy, above.

> > You seem to think there's a line in between them.
> >Well, there isn't. There is only grey. Sometimes I feel, as I get older,
> >that everything gets more grey, until sooner or later, I won't even be
able
> >to tell the difference anymore. I don't know if that's good or bad, but I
> >sure as hell would rather that than this naive inexperience that some
people
> >seem to display.
>
> What? You state that people are naive because they
> a) play roleplaying games for enjoyment
> b) believe that particular things happening will stop them enjoying the
game
> c) don't want to play in games where those particular things happen on
screen.
>
> Or because people argue that you can _choose_ to play Shadowrun in a
> lighter world setting than the one that you present.
>
> In either case I don't see how it justifies you assumption of naivity.

No. I feel _you_ are naive because you don't seem to understand a few simple
facts about the world. In New York City, in America, women get raped while
crowds gather and do nothing. In Greece, young men overdose in gutters and
die, and no one really cares. In Columbia, man kill women and children for
money gained by drugs. In Sarajevo...well, don't get me started. The world
isn't as nice as you think. And if all you ever do is play nice, someday
reality's going to put you in a situation where you are at a supreme
disadvantage, because you are playing nice, and everyone else is playing to
win.

That's my claim of naivety. And it's not aimed as an attack on you. Simply a
statement of opinion. I've weathered much worse in my time here.
Message no. 11
From: Mad Hamish h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
Subject: Shadowrun and Butality (WAS: Getting nasty to your PCs)
Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 17:21:11 +1000
At 00:21 9/09/99 -0400, abortion_engine wrote:
>> > When is murder okay and not okay?
>>
>> Real world or in RPGs?
>> Real world very few. RPGs and fiction it varies depending upon your exact
>> definition of murder and also the genre you are in.
>
>For you. Many people feel killing is justified in self-defense, or in
>wartime. Some think it's okay when you feel like it or need to. And some
>don't think it's ever okay. See Gandhi, above.

I'd like to point out that I see murder as a subset of killing. IMO killing
in self defence is not murder, nor are _most_ killings during a war.

Killing in self defence is acceptable to me _if_ the perceived threat is
enough to justify the response. Killing an opposition soldier during combat
is also acceptable to me.
--
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@**********.utas.edu.au
h_laws@******.net.au
Message no. 12
From: Ignacio De Lucas morrisjila@*******.com
Subject: Shadowrun and Butality (WAS: Getting nasty to your PCs)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:49:32 GMT
>I'd like to point out that I see murder as a subset of killing. IMO killing
>in self defence is not murder, nor are _most_ killings during a war.
>
>Killing in self defence is acceptable to me _if_ the perceived threat is
>enough to justify the response. Killing an opposition soldier during combat
>is also acceptable to me.

IMHO there shouldnt be wars at all so killing an oposite soldier wouldnt be
nesesary. Look a life is a life, it doesnt matter what was your reason for
taking it, he only "murder" I would accept is self defense meaning that you
or one you love is in equal danger so I guess a soldier kills in self
defense so he is not guilty of murder but the person who caused the conflict
is.

Other point I want to make is that one of you guys, sorry dont remember who,
said that there was no diference between violence and cinematografic
violence, you are wrong, IMO anyways, Inside an RPG you carry guns armor and
all sorts of weapons you can, you commit a crime every thay (SR universe)
from buying whith a SINless cred stick to killing something. now on real
life I do not go to the streets armed or looking for trouble or commiting
any crimes, I do not go arround killing any one who oposes my way, and if
you can not see the diference between imagining something and actually
hapening i very well sugest you stop playing it will cause you problems

ATTE el MORRIS

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 13
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: Shadowrun and Butality (WAS: Getting nasty to your PCs)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 20:44:54 +0200
> Other point I want to make is that one of you guys, sorry dont remember
who,
> said that there was no diference between violence and cinematografic
> violence, you are wrong, IMO anyways, Inside an RPG you carry guns armor
and
> all sorts of weapons you can, you commit a crime every thay (SR universe)
> from buying whith a SINless cred stick to killing something.

I agree,...whoever said that has either a strange sense of perception, or
has never been in a real "violent" situation before. Real life violence is
brutal and ugly, people hurt people and it's ugly. It's nothing like a Jacky
Chan movie, or a John Woo action flick. I have been in a couple of very ugly
situations, and it has left me slightly paraniod and afraid. Violence, IMO,
is far, far away from cinematografic violence.

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."
Message no. 14
From: Gorbi gbmaill@***.de
Subject: Shadowrun and Butality (WAS: Getting nasty to your PCs)
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 02:40:45 +0200
Ignacio de Lucas wrote:
> Other point I want to make is that one of you guys, sorry dont remember who,
> said that there was no diference between violence and cinematografic
> violence, you are wrong, IMO anyways, Inside an RPG you carry guns armor and
> all sorts of weapons you can, you commit a crime every thay (SR universe)
>>from buying whith a SINless cred stick to killing something. now on real
> life I do not go to the streets armed or looking for trouble or commiting
> any crimes, I do not go arround killing any one who oposes my way,

I consider thoughts to have some power or, in terms of "science": Thoughts
are energy and energy doesn't vanish. I could make up some more
"explanations".
However, if you don't know what the effects are, you won't care in most
cases (so do I). But some people claim to know and most of them want to have
more control over their thoughts and feelings. Some even think that a
thought carries more power than the spoken word or a deed. When you think of
the proverb "The pen is mightier than the sword." (pen=spoken word,
swordÞed) you can imagine how much power a THOUGHT can have.
Even if those people are wrong: Do you know what happens to your thoughts
and feelings after you thought and felt them? Do they simply vanish? Or are
they your share for the future of mankind?
Just some, ... well, ... thoughts :-)

Gorbi

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