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Message no. 1
From: Ron Clark <rclark@****.NET>
Subject: Shadowrun and creatures
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 15:27:48 -0600
This talk about ADnD reminded me of a question I had...

How do you handle creatures in shadowrun. I have no personal knowledge of
this, but a friend of mine in Arizona mentioned something about creatures
(like elephants and such) have a high body. Yet characters can have a high
body too, Human's can have as high as 9 and trolls (I beleive) can have up
to a 14. The problem he was concerned about is how easy it would be to
take an elephant down with a simple pistol. For instance, characters and
persons usually have body armor. Animals don't. So if you do have a large
creature that has a body of 10 or higher, maybe even up to 20 (I know
dragons can get that high, but they usually have armor listed) how do you
handle it. It makes little sense to me that a person with armor has just
as good of a chance to withstand a hit as a several ton creature. I guess
the question is 1) should a hand pistol be so effective against larger
creatures or tougher creatures, and 2) how do you correct or adjus it if
you don't think a pistol should be able to do that?

Ron

#include disclamer.h
Message no. 2
From: Lehlan Decker <DeckerL@******.COM>
Subject: Shadowrun and creatures -Reply
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:34:37 -0500
<SNIP Animal and SR>
This is a long argument. But in general awakened animals may
have a high body, and even armor of their own. Check out the
two paranomal creatures books. (Their no longer in print).
Supposedly FASA is reprinting and updating all of them in the 3rd edition
GM screen, due out a week or so ago.
Personally I love the various animals. If used correctly, they can
be more fun then alot of NPC's. (picture a pack of barghest howling, and
PC's with little armor, and light weapons.....ouch).
Message no. 3
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun and creatures
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:56:29 -0700
For the mere cost of a Thaum, Ron Clark wrote:
/
/ This talk about ADnD reminded me of a question I had...
/
/ How do you handle creatures in shadowrun. I have no personal knowledge of
/ this, but a friend of mine in Arizona mentioned something about creatures
/ (like elephants and such) have a high body. Yet characters can have a high
/ body too, Human's can have as high as 9 and trolls (I beleive) can have up
/ to a 14. The problem he was concerned about is how easy it would be to
/ take an elephant down with a simple pistol.

Treat large animals (or tough ones) like vehicles as far as determining
damage is concerned. This makes them practically immune to small
weapons and almost impossible to one shot with anything less than a
high power weapon.


-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 4
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun and creatures
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 01:25:04 +0000
> This talk about ADnD reminded me of a question I had...
>
> How do you handle creatures in shadowrun.
*SNIP*
> The problem he was concerned about is how easy it would be to
> take an elephant down with a simple pistol.
*SNIP
>1) should a hand pistol be so effective against larger
> creatures or tougher creatures, and

I'll keep the argument strictly to normal creatures here, say an
elephant, to avoid confusing things like magic and ease of
comparison.

A light pistol won't stop an elephant, now or then. I don't even need
to calculate on that one.

Say an elephant has 16 body. A lot, but not unreasonable. An average,
trained gunner (skill 3) shoots at it at 20 meters, with a stock
predator. TN 5 (Shall we say 21 meters and make it 6? Okay.). He gets
one succcess on average, the elephant two or three for a light or
medium wound.

Is that okay? The elephant should get at least a light wound, IMO, so
it's okay with me. The problem is it probably shouldn't get much MORE
than a light wound, but then, it doesn't. A normal street samurai
with a smartgun would get 8 successes or so in the same situation,
which would mean instant death to the elephant.

So.. the rules work well enough relative to the situation today, but
it's very deadly using 2060's combat technology. I'm not 100% sure
what I feel about that. I think it's a bit too effective but OTOH gun
tech has evolved a lot more in these 62 years than the elephant's
bullet proof west has, so it might be okay. But while it might be
realistic it's better for most wilderness stories if the biggest,
most dangerous animals aren't one shot, one kill sort of targets.

> 2) how do you correct or adjust it if
> you don't think a pistol should be able to do that?

Hm.. D. Buehrer suggested using vehicle rules for large creatures. In
3rd edition, that means -1 damage level and halve the power level
IIRC. This overcompensates, I think - even a fairly powerful hunting
rifle in the hands of an expert would barely tickle an elephant, and
that is unrealistic too. Reducing the damage level only sounds like a
good compromise to me, and failrly realistic, considering relative
size.

Regards,
Fade
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 5
From: "D. Ghost" <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun and creatures
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 23:58:20 -0600
On Wed, 2 Dec 1998 01:25:04 +0000 Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO> writes:
<SNIP>
>> 2) how do you correct or adjust it if
>> you don't think a pistol should be able to do that?

>Hm.. D. Buehrer suggested using vehicle rules for large creatures. In
>3rd edition, that means -1 damage level and halve the power level
>IIRC. This overcompensates, I think - even a fairly powerful hunting
>rifle in the hands of an expert would barely tickle an elephant, and
>that is unrealistic too. Reducing the damage level only sounds like a
>good compromise to me, and failrly realistic, considering relative size.

Well, Vehicles also have lower body ratings so implementing the above
system without adjusting the critter's body would make Elephants superior
to MBTs ... Ick.

Okay, let's try this... Here's a list of critters that, IMO, should use
the above system. Also listed is my reccomendation for an adjusted body
attribute. (Since I don't have the GM Screen this is based of the stats
in BBB2, BBB3, and P/E)

Critter Body
----------------------
Abrams Lobster 1/2**
Afanc 2/3**
Bayard 2
Bear, Large 2
Elephant 4/2*
Rhinoceros 3/1*
Behemoth 3/3**
Dzoo-Noo-Qua 2/3*
Each-Uisage 2
European Gargoyle 2/5**
Fomorian 2/2*
Gargoyle 2/2**
Hydra Wyrm 3/1*
Juggernaught 4/8**
Kraken 3/2*
Leviathon 3/1
Megladon 4/1*
Meistersinger 6/1*
Piasma 2/1*
Snow Moose 2
Wild Minotaur 3
Dracoforms
Feathered 3/8**
Greater 6/12**
Western 5/8**
Greater 7/12**
Oriental 4/8**
Greater 7/12**

*The number before the slash is the creature's body, the number after the
slash is the creature's armor which works just like standard dermal
armor.
**The number before the slash is the creature's body, the number after
the slash is the creature's armor which works just like standard vehicle
armor.

Note: I am operating under the assumption that for great dragons, you
increase their armor TO twelve, not BY twelve ... Is this correct?

What do you think?

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Coffee without caffeine is like sex without the spanking." -- Cupid
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire

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Message no. 6
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun and creatures
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:42:28 -0700
After reading all the responses I'd like to edit my original response
to this thread.

I'd suggest borrowing an aspect the vehicle damage rules and rule that
the power of non-AV weapons is halved vs large hard to kill animals.

If someone is really good they can stage the damage to the point where
the animal can't possibly stage the damage back down, regardless of the
power of the weapon.

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

Further Reading

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