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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: marc.renouf@******.com (Renouf, Marc A.)
Subject: Shadowrun and Suspension of Disbelief
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 14:39:07 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Pace
> Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 7:46 AM
>
> I agree with you, but I think suspension of belief has a lot
> to do with internal consistency. I don't see why, in an
> awakened world full of magical hoo-hah, wireless tech is so
> inconcievable.

To me, this is a cop-out. One of the beauties of Shadowrun is
that modern technology is not simply lost or swept under the rug. The
Shadowrun world is an *extension* of our own, not a *replacement* of our
own. The fictional world intrinsically works because the elements we're
suspending disbelief of are couched in and juxtaposed with elements that
we don't *have* to suspend disbelief of. I don't have to suspend
disbelief to know that assault rifles are deadly effective in the right
hands. I don't have to suspend disbelief to think that remotely-piloted
vehicles can be useful. I don't have to suspend disbelief to think that
computational power in the future will be far in excess of what it is
now. It is this "cushion" of the known and believable that makes the
unknown and magical parts of Shadowrun so appealing.
But it's important to have some sense and some consistency
applied to the "realistic" parts of the game. I wish the original
designers of Shadowrun had either taken the time to learn about firearms
or consult someone who did. Later editions fixed some of these issues
somewhat, but it took house rules for me to make autofire jive with
reality. And it's these little real-world inconsistencies that jar the
chords of our suspension of disbelief - not because they're magical, but
rather because they're *not* magical, and thus should reasonably fit
into our logical analogs of what is and is not possible with technology.
Hence, I have no problem with the fact that people can cast spells or
the rules mechanics thereof because there's no analog for casting spells
in the real world for me to disagree with. But when every piece of
consumer electronics on the planet is wireless? Where's all that
bandwidth coming from? The PAN in and of itself is not necessarily a
bad concept. Indeed, it poses some interesting ramifications. But the
point is that it needs to be done in a way that's believable, not
because it's magic, but because it's *not* magic.
The sinking of large parts of California is another example.
There's no fault where the game designers put the new coastline, and the
one that's nearest wouldn't lead to massive terrestrial subduction. So
what the hell happened? "Magic?" Okay, I *might* buy that magic can
wreak massive changes far in excess of what powerful forces like plate
tectonics can't, but at least throw me a bone. Don't just say "there
was an earthquake, and, um, stuff fell into the ocean" because that
doesn't cut it.
Even stuff that's fantastically advanced tech can be explained
if you take just a little effort to do so. Example: there have long
been debates about exactly what "powers" cyberware. In my campaign, I
decided that in the mid 2020's, someone came up with a method of
producing thermally-activated piezoelectric crystals. Like modern
piezoelectric crystals, this material emits an electric charge when
placed under pressure. But with the new crystals, heat energy both
increases the electric output and reforms the crystal structure more
quickly, leading to increases in power and life. Since the human body
generates heat, these crystals are used to power cyberware. As long as
the user maintains his or her metabolism, the crystals can provide
plenty of power. As an extension, the same kinds of materials are used
in solar cells, some handheld personal electronics, and a number of
other small electronic devices.
Does it require a suspension of disbelief? Yes, but it's
consistent both internally and to the rest of my campaign world at
large, which lends verisimilitude and makes suspension of disbelief
easier.
And that's what it's all about.

Marc
Message no. 2
From: reynardsurface@*****.com (Pace)
Subject: Shadowrun and Suspension of Disbelief
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 14:35:13 -0500
On 10/5/05, Renouf, Marc A. <marc.renouf@******.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> And that's what it's all about.
>
> Marc
>
>
I guess it's just a question of what you're willing to believe then. I'm not
a SIGINT specialist, but as I sit on the toilet typing this email on my PDA,
to be shipped across to my computer and arrive in a blink of an eye to your
email inbox, I can overhear the thudding bass of a car stereo going by,
capable of accessing thousands upon thousands of local frequencies at a rate
that can play music in real time (the guy inside's probably not on his
cellphone, but he will be soon, and so he'll need to turn down his Ipod
transmitter so that he can respond to the text message he recieved with a
cellular walkie-talkie "chirp."), and I know the trains and planes and semis
that go by my house have a multitude of communication methods, all of them
wireless and even my TV is piped in (hundreds of channels, with room for
hundreds more) through the air, from some satellite due south of here.... as
I consider all of this, I think I'm willing to believe in a wireless world.
Message no. 3
From: mc23@**********.com (MC23)
Subject: Shadowrun and Suspension of Disbelief
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 20:10:28 -0400
On Oct 5, 2005, at 3:35 PM, Pace wrote:

> as I consider all of this, I think I'm willing to believe in a
> wireless world.

It's not that it's wireless but how omni-prevalent and invasive it is!
To my understanding, by default everything is wireless and that makes
no sense. Now you have to worry about cyberware have connected systems
to the Matrix that
makes no sense.
This edition of Shadowrun seems to have an Utopian ideal with it's
everyone wireless and everything is accessible to the matrix. This is
Cyberpunk people! Bad things happen and players are involved with it.
That really doesn't seem to be accounted for here and really is just
ignored. It seems I have to put a lot of work into anything I'd do with
SR4 if I ever played it.
Message no. 4
From: raymacey@*****.com (Ray Macey)
Subject: Shadowrun and Suspension of Disbelief
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 10:37:43 +1000
On 10/6/05, MC23 <mc23@**********.com> wrote:
> This edition of Shadowrun seems to have an Utopian ideal with it's
> everyone wireless and everything is accessible to the matrix. This is
> Cyberpunk people! Bad things happen and players are involved with it.
> That really doesn't seem to be accounted for here and really is just
> ignored. It seems I have to put a lot of work into anything I'd do with
> SR4 if I ever played it.

How do you mean Utopian? To your average Joe, wireless presents him
with many a convenience, but that convenience comes at the cost of
privacy. He can be tracked, sorted, data mined and collated every
moment of his life. Wireless serves the corps, and only the corps.
There's no utopia about it. It's pervasive and invasive, something
that Shadowrunners have to go out of their way to use to their
advantage without getting caught by the liabilities of the technology.

--
http://cyron.id.au
Message no. 5
From: Paul.Grosse@***********.com (Paul Grosse)
Subject: Shadowrun and Suspension of Disbelief
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 06:53:12 -0500
> The sinking of large parts of California is another example.
> There's no fault where the game designers put the new
> coastline, and the one that's nearest wouldn't lead to
> massive terrestrial subduction. So what the hell happened?
> "Magic?" Okay, I *might* buy that magic can wreak massive
> changes far in excess of what powerful forces like plate
> tectonics can't, but at least throw me a bone. Don't just
> say "there was an earthquake, and, um, stuff fell into the
> ocean" because that doesn't cut it.

Well there's also the fact that scientists can't really know exactly
where a fault line is until it does move, thereby creating an
earthquake. And fault lines can be in the middle of a plate, or rather
not a fault line, umm I can't remember what they call a weak spot in the
plate right now. But the strongest earthquake ever recorded in North
America was in Southern Indiana. So in theory there could be a massive
fault line that has been building pressure for the last couple of
thousand years or so and the little ones around it have just been
relieving the pressure a bit at a time, but the over all pressure keeps
going up.

Paul "Yes that Paul" Grosse
PCGen BoD OGL Silverback, Data & Tracker Lemur
Holder of Sacred SRD Knowledge
ICQ: 14397299
AO: Nylan
CoH:Nylan Neblett
Various forums: Nylan (or Nylanfs)

"I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted paychecks"
Message no. 6
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Shadowrun and Suspension of Disbelief
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2005 08:13:31 -0600
On 10/6/05, Paul Grosse <Paul.Grosse@***********.com> wrote:
> > The sinking of large parts of California is another example.
> > There's no fault where the game designers put the new
> > coastline, and the one that's nearest wouldn't lead to
> > massive terrestrial subduction. So what the hell happened?
> > "Magic?" Okay, I *might* buy that magic can wreak massive
> > changes far in excess of what powerful forces like plate
> > tectonics can't, but at least throw me a bone. Don't just
> > say "there was an earthquake, and, um, stuff fell into the
> > ocean" because that doesn't cut it.
>
> Well there's also the fact that scientists can't really know exactly
> where a fault line is until it does move, thereby creating an
> earthquake. And fault lines can be in the middle of a plate, or rather
> not a fault line, umm I can't remember what they call a weak spot in the
> plate right now. But the strongest earthquake ever recorded in North
> America was in Southern Indiana. So in theory there could be a massive
> fault line that has been building pressure for the last couple of
> thousand years or so and the little ones around it have just been
> relieving the pressure a bit at a time, but the over all pressure keeps
> going up.

I don't have a problem with an unknown faultline, or even the
elevation drop required to flood the central valley and LA. What I do
have a problem with is the conflict between that and only thousands of
deaths instead of millions, and the statement that San Francisco was
largly unnaffected when SF Bay is the only point for sea water to flow
through to flood the Central Valley.

So it needs to be either "MASSIVE earthquake devastates California and
surrounding area when it causes MASSIVE elevation changes and MASSSIVE
flooding occurs and MILLIONS are killed" or "earthquake causes tidal
wave that hits the LA coast and thousands are killed".

--
-Graht

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