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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Randy Nickel <LrdDrgn@***.COM>
Subject: Shadowrun art
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 00:52:24 EDT
I was going to start putting together my Shadowrun web site and was wanting to
find some good art, jpgs, gifs, or bmps, to put on there. Cover art from some
of the Shadowrun books, or supplements would be fine.

Does anyone know a good site where I could start looking. The FASA site was an
obvious choice so if there are some other good sites that people could point
me at I would appreciate it.

BTW, part of the web site will be dedicated to the metaplane that I call Hive
World, the home of the Invae. :)

Otter
Message no. 2
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun art
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:27:10 +1000
> I was going to start putting together my Shadowrun web site and was
> wanting to find some good art, jpgs, gifs, or bmps, to put on there.
> Cover art from some of the Shadowrun books, or supplements would be
> fine.

Please be aware that this is most definitely copyright infringement.
Even use of the Skull-Logo is technically infringement of FASA's
copyright, but they tend to overlook that.

Wholesale scans of cover art would probably be a different matter
though. If you use such material, be prepared for FASA to come down on
you...

Lady Jestyr

- It's not pretty being easy -
| Elle Holmes | jestyr@**********.com | http://jestyr.home.ml.org |
| Shadowrun Webring Ringmaster | GeoCities Leader | RPGA Reviewer |
Message no. 3
From: Randy Nickel <LrdDrgn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun art
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 01:59:34 EDT
In a message dated 8/11/98 10:48:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU writes:

> Please be aware that this is most definitely copyright infringement.
> Even use of the Skull-Logo is technically infringement of FASA's
> copyright, but they tend to overlook that.
>
> Wholesale scans of cover art would probably be a different matter
> though. If you use such material, be prepared for FASA to come down on
> you...
>
> Lady Jestyr

I don't know all the ins and outs of copy right laws. However, there are a lot
of sites that I have visited that use the skull, trading cards that have been
scanned, covers from novels and supplements.

I am sure that does not make it right, but FASA must not be too picky.

However, if you were using it for advertising, or trying to sell the art work,
then I bet you would have a problem.

If anyone knows someone at FASA that I could get an okay from I would
appreciate it.

Otter
Message no. 4
From: David Goth <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun art
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 02:31:33 -0500
> I don't know all the ins and outs of copy right laws. However,
> there are a lot
> of sites that I have visited that use the skull, trading cards
> that have been
> scanned, covers from novels and supplements.

Hopefully with the proper disclaimer. (I think I once saw it on FASA's web
site)

> However, if you were using it for advertising, or trying to sell
> the art work,
> then I bet you would have a problem.

Basically, I got the impression that if someone besides them didn't profit
from this, you didn't scan boatloads of stuff, and included the
disclaimer...they were probably cool with it.

> If anyone knows someone at FASA that I could get an okay from I would
> appreciate it.

FASA's own site is probably your best bet for the fastest official response.

-Dave-
Message no. 5
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun art
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 03:55:53 -0600
At 01:59 8/12/98 -0400, you wrote:

>I don't know all the ins and outs of copy right laws. However, there are a
lot
>of sites that I have visited that use the skull, trading cards that have been
>scanned, covers from novels and supplements.

Lots of people kill people, too. It doesn't mean murder is right.

>I am sure that does not make it right, but FASA must not be too picky.

FASA isn't picky, but according to the most recent statement about online
works relating to materials that they hold copyrights for, you can find a
statement from Tom Dowd at the ShadowFAQ,
http://www.pobox.com/~wordman/ShadowFAQ

I'll summarize: You can publish your own stuff as long as you include the
disclaimer, you can't publish FASA stuff or use FASA art.

However, you can get away with using some art if you write a review of
something, and include, say, a scan of the cover. I don't know -why- you
would really want to do this, though. Surely you're creative enough to
make your own site without pillaging your books for artwork? :)

There's virtually nil chance of FASA doing anything, though. I only know a
couple cases where they've stepped in regarding copyright infringement online.

>If anyone knows someone at FASA that I could get an okay from I would
>appreciate it.

Try emailing FASAinfo@***.com and asking them about it.

-Adam J
-
< http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / ICQ# 2350330 / fro@***.ab.ca >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / TSS Productions >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< The Entity responsible for the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball >
Message no. 6
From: Mike-san <mpost@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun art
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:30:44 -0700
Randy Nickel wrote:

> I don't know all the ins and outs of copy right laws. However, there are a lot
> of sites that I have visited that use the skull, trading cards that have been
> scanned, covers from novels and supplements.
>
> I am sure that does not make it right, but FASA must not be too picky.
>
> However, if you were using it for advertising, or trying to sell the art work,
> then I bet you would have a problem.
>
> If anyone knows someone at FASA that I could get an okay from I would
> appreciate it.

Actually, FASA has already suffered what is known as dilution of their Shadowrun
trademark. We all use the trademark "Shadowrun" quite freely on this list.
Since
they have not taken the responsibility of correcting the abuse on this mailing
list and on the web in general, they would not be able to make a case in court
because they had already set a precedent of not defending it. So is using the
Shadowrun (TM) trademark without proper acknowledgement illegal? Don't ask me,
I'm not an IP lawyer, just a software engineer. :)

mike-san
Message no. 7
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun art
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:40:21 +1000
Mike-san writes:
> Actually, FASA has already suffered what is known as dilution of
> their Shadowrun
> trademark. We all use the trademark "Shadowrun" quite freely on
> this list.

Don't bet on it... we use the term Shadowrun here quite freely, but the
context is that of private correspondence (admittedly in a public forum). As
such, the trademark is not diluted.

The people who use the term Shadowrun on the Web should have a disclaimer
somewhere indicating that it is a registered trademark of FASA Corporation
(along the same lines you see in the books). If they don't, then the
web-page author could be in strife. But it is only a dilution of the
trademark if it can be shown that FASA was aware of the infringement and
chose not to act. Even then, FASA should be able to argue that the dilution
only applies to that particular webpage, and is not a general dilution.

(I remember all this crap being analysed in the aftermath of the TSR
crackdown on web-infringmenets)

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 8
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun art
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:34:51 -0400
From: Randy Nickel <LrdDrgn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun art

> > Please be aware that this is most definitely copyright infringement.
> > Even use of the Skull-Logo is technically infringement of FASA's
> > copyright, but they tend to overlook that.
> >
> > Wholesale scans of cover art would probably be a different matter
> > though. If you use such material, be prepared for FASA to come down on
> > you...
> If anyone knows someone at FASA that I could get an okay from I would
> appreciate it.

Well, knowing copywrite laws and being a past licensee of FASA, I
can tell you that they do protect their intellectual property. And
they can come after you for using their images (and even images
that are clearly derived from their work, like the mech shapes in
battletech.)

I agree with LJ...cover art will get you into trouble. FASA has an
unofficial policy more or less stating that if you use the logos and
don't tell them, they wont have to tell you to take it down. I am
sure that this will NOT apply to cover art or anything else extensive.

The rule here is don't do it and no one gets hurt. :P


--Droopy
Message no. 9
From: Mike-san <mpost@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun art
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 20:32:20 -0700
Robert Watkins wrote:

> Mike-san writes:
> > Actually, FASA has already suffered what is known as dilution of
> > their Shadowrun
> > trademark. We all use the trademark "Shadowrun" quite freely on
> > this list.
>
> Don't bet on it... we use the term Shadowrun here quite freely, but the
> context is that of private correspondence (admittedly in a public forum). As
> such, the trademark is not diluted.

I could buy that argument. Provided, of course, that there are absolutely no
web searchable archives of this list anywhere. I've seen several web sites on
the web ring which have both out takes and complete messages from this list.
But again, I'm not a lawyer.

> The people who use the term Shadowrun on the Web should have a disclaimer
> somewhere indicating that it is a registered trademark of FASA Corporation
> (along the same lines you see in the books).

Agreed.

> If they don't, then the web-page author could be in strife. But it is only a
> dilution of the
> trademark if it can be shown that FASA was aware of the infringement and
> chose not to act. Even then, FASA should be able to argue that the dilution
> only applies to that particular webpage, and is not a general dilution.

Unless, of course, FASA owns and sponsors an entire web ring full of copyright
infringements.

> (I remember all this crap being analysed in the aftermath of the TSR
> crackdown on web-infringmenets)

I had stopped paying attention to TSR long before then. :)
Message no. 10
From: "Mark C. Farrington" <alareth@*****.DWEBS.NET>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun art
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 23:57:40 -0400
>Unless, of course, FASA owns and sponsors an entire web ring full of
copyright
>infringements.


FASA dosen't own the webring, Lady Jestyr does.

Alareth - Acolyte of the First Church of the Squooshy Ball
The Shiny Happy Gaming Group - http://www.dwebs.net/~alareth
ICQ UIN - 11468823
Message no. 11
From: Mike-san <mpost@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun art
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 21:12:16 -0700
Mark C. Farrington wrote:

> >Unless, of course, FASA owns and sponsors an entire web ring full of
> copyright
> >infringements.
>
> FASA dosen't own the webring, Lady Jestyr does.

I do stand corrected: I misread the FASA site on the Shadowrun web ring.
They may not own/sponsor it, but they clearly endorse it with a link from
their corporate site. Hence trademark dilution. I've got no argument
about the copyright infringement stuff.
Message no. 12
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.DIALIX.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun art
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:23:56 +1000
> > Don't bet on it... we use the term Shadowrun here quite freely, but the
> > context is that of private correspondence (admittedly in a public forum). As
> > such, the trademark is not diluted.
>
> I could buy that argument. Provided, of course, that there are absolutely no
> web searchable archives of this list anywhere. I've seen several web sites on
> the web ring which have both out takes and complete messages from this list.
> But again, I'm not a lawyer.

And then it becomes an issue of the web, not the mailing list, and as
discussed below, it becomes the responsibility of the site maintainer to
add a disclaimer. What's the issue here?

> > The people who use the term Shadowrun on the Web should have a disclaimer
> > somewhere indicating that it is a registered trademark of FASA Corporation
> > (along the same lines you see in the books).
>
> Agreed.
>

> > only applies to that particular webpage, and is not a general dilution.
>
> Unless, of course, FASA owns and sponsors an entire web ring full of copyright
> infringements.

Ahem. I actually run the webring, and FASA have merely put their site in
it - doesn't mean they sponsor it.

(If they sponsor it, where's my money?!)

On a related note, in about a month's time I will be starting a
crackdown on Webring sites, looking for copyright infringements and the
like. Use of the Shadowrun logo will be permitted, since FASA seems
prepared to overlook it, but all other infringements to FASA's copyright
will result in the site being suspended from the ring until the
offending material is removed.

So, that's a warning to all of you in the Webring - shape up or ship
out. ;)

(Note that most sites I've come across are pretty good about copyright
and disclaimers... thanks guys ;)

Lady Jestyr

- It's not pretty being easy -
| Elle Holmes | jestyr@**********.com | http://jestyr.home.ml.org |
| Shadowrun Webring Ringmaster | GeoCities Leader | RPGA Reviewer |
Message no. 13
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun art
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 21:14:25 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 10:34 PM 8/12/98 -0400, Droopy wrote:
>Well, knowing copywrite laws and being a past licensee of FASA, I
>can tell you that they do protect their intellectual property. And
>they can come after you for using their images (and even images
>that are clearly derived from their work, like the mech shapes in
>battletech.)

::Laughs Ass Off::

Like the Mech shapes in battletech? I seem to remember a animation
studio by the name of Harmony Gold that had imported an anime by the
name of Macross (along with two other animes), re-dubbing it and
repackaging it as a show called Robotech. Seems Harmony Gold had to
come after FASA for some images "that are clearly derived from their
work, like the mech shapes" in Robotech, which FASA had used as 12 of
the original mechs in Battletech.

And in fact, some of the artistic depictions of certain Shadowrun
firearms happen to be "clearly derived" from firearms featured in
certain sci-fi movies such as Blade Runner and RoboCop, and possibly
others, though those are the only two that spring readily to mind.

Just an observation.
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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344
Message no. 14
From: The Bookworm <Thomas.M.Price@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun art
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:03:11 -0500
On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Paul Gettle wrote:
> Like the Mech shapes in battletech? I seem to remember a animation
> studio by the name of Harmony Gold that had imported an anime by the
> name of Macross (along with two other animes), re-dubbing it and
> repackaging it as a show called Robotech. Seems Harmony Gold had to
> come after FASA for some images "that are clearly derived from their
> work, like the mech shapes" in Robotech, which FASA had used as 12 of
> the original mechs in Battletech.

AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!! Sorry old reflexes from when i was a BattleTech junky
in HS(the bordgame not the computer sims) The real story is as follows.
Back when FASA was creating Droid Wars (Lucas made them change the name:))
they were attempting to create the feel of big anime robots as war
machines. They decided to just go to the sorce and BOUGHT the rights to a
number of images from the ORGINAL Japanese studios that produced the
shows. IIRC about half the original 3025 mechs were from one anime or
another. Well a few years LATTER Harmony Gold went to one of these
studios and bought the rights to 3 tv shows. He basterdized them together
in to Robotech and brought it to the US. He then proceded to sue FASA
over their use of the art. FASA won. Then the toy company he signed up
with to make the toys sued FASA. FASA won. FASA had spent at least 4 or
5 years in court and WAY to much money defending themselves successfully.
So to just end the hassle they decided that no new products would use the
disputed images. They had enough homegrown mech art and artists to be
able to do this but BattleTech fans everywhere morned. *sniff*

Thomas Price
aka The Bookworm
thomas.m.price@*******.edu
tmprice@***********.com
Message no. 15
From: Brandon Kern <bkern@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun art
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:02:22 -0700
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
> Behalf Of The Bookworm
> Sent: Friday, August 14, 1998 7:03 AM
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Shadowrun art
>
> So to just end the hassle they decided that no new products would use the
> disputed images. They had enough homegrown mech art and artists to be
> able to do this but BattleTech fans everywhere morned. *sniff*

I share your pain.

I miss my Thunderbolt.

You are www.primenet.com/~bkern
What you do ICQ: 879171
When it counts. Pariah(-ic)
-The Masao
Message no. 16
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun art
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:56:24 +0000
> in to Robotech and brought it to the US. He then proceded to sue FASA
> over their use of the art. FASA won. Then the toy company he signed up
> with to make the toys sued FASA. FASA won. FASA had spent at least 4 or
> 5 years in court and WAY to much money defending themselves successfully.
> So to just end the hassle they decided that no new products would use the
> disputed images. They had enough homegrown mech art and artists to be
> able to do this but BattleTech fans everywhere morned. *sniff*

...not only 'cuz those mechs looked good, but because they were the
best available using the old-tech readouts. (FASA tends to build in
"weaknesses" to book Mechs, and these were among the most functional)

-=SwiftOne=-
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie
Message no. 17
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun art
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 11:40:44 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 09:03 AM 8/14/98 -0500, Thomas Price wrote:
<<Snip: Story about FASA buying rights to Mech images directly from
Japan>>

Ah. I could have sworn Robotech predated Battletech. Oh well.

However, that still leaves certain firearm images in Shadowrun that
are "clearly derived" from props featured in Blade Runner and RoboCop.
The books those images apear in were most certainly published after
the movies that they originally apeared in.

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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Shadowrun art, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.