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Message no. 1
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:07:17 -0400
I read this off of the Netscape home site. Shadowrun describes a society
that is mostly cashless, although it does describe a limited circulation of
plastic covered bills and such. The article below highlights some good
reasons why there will always be some cash, IMNSHO.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Going Cashless As Small Change Dries Up

PARIS (Reuters) - A strike by armored van security guards, now in its 11th
day, is turning France into a cashless society.

Sales are down in small shops, waiters are losing out on their usual tips
and beggars are deprived of the few coins they live off.

With the normal flow of cash between banks and shops cut off, the small
change and banknotes normally used for everyday purchases are becoming ever
harder to find. Credit cards and checks are often the only way to pay for
purchases.

French state railways and the Paris metro system announced on Friday they
would accept checks as low as five francs (68 U.S. cents) even less than
the eight-franc metro ticket.

The guards who transport cash between banks and shops to feed automated
teller machines (ATMs) and collect shop earnings went on strike on May 9
for more risk money following a series of brutal hold-ups, some with
bazookas and automatic weapons.

The French government appointed a mediator for the dispute earlier this
week after negotiations between unions and bosses broke down. But despite
his intervention, no deal appeared forthcoming and more talks are expected
at the weekend.

``Business for us is down by at least 50 percent. It's a disaster,'' said
Jean-Paul, an assistant at the Soguisa fishmongers in Paris' bustling Rue
Montorgueil.

``Customers feel embarrassed about buying a fish for 15 francs ($2.00) with
their credit cards. They are going to supermarkets and doing all their
shopping there,'' he said.

Debit cards with ``smart chips'' are widely used in France, but normally
only for purchases of 100 francs and up. Many shops had to slash the
threshold for credit card payments when the supply of small change and
notes dried up.

``The trouble is we have to pay commission on the credit card sales so this
is costing us,'' said Gregory Bernard, owner of the An II bar on the lively
Rue Faubourg du Temple.

``We have run out of 50 franc notes and everyone brings in big notes
wanting change which we haven't got,'' he said. In desperation he went to a
branch of the Bank of France but even they had run out of 10 franc coins.

A waitress at a bar across the street said she was starting to feel the
pinch. ``Hardly anyone is leaving us tips any more. Everyone seems to be
holding onto their coins,'' said Diane.

At the bottom of the money chain, Paris' homeless beggars were also
struggling. ``I know you haven't got much money on you, but please give me
whatever you can spare,'' said one young man travelling the metro in search
of handouts.

Many people appeared to be hoarding what is left of their cash for
emergencies, while others tramp the streets trying to find a cash dispenser
that works. Some banks reported that up to 80 percent of their ATMs were
now empty.

``When you see a line you join it in the hope the machine is still giving
out money,'' said Kay Rolland, publisher of Where magazine in Paris. ``You
get a panicky feeling that you can't get hold of your own money.''

Susanne Baille, who runs a newspaper kiosk on Paris' Place de la
Republique, said she had started offering her regular clients credit.
``Some people want to pay for papers with checks, but I say no. This is
getting silly.''

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 2
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 16:36:27 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Monday, May 22, 2000 11:07 PM
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society



snip all the actually relevant stuff

>The guards who transport cash between banks and shops to feed automated
>teller machines (ATMs) and collect shop earnings went on strike on May 9
>for more risk money following a series of brutal hold-ups, some with
>bazookas and automatic weapons.
>
Ah, the French. Not even someone from the Southern US would hold someone up
with a bazooka :?)
Message no. 3
From: Jkmiland@***.com Jkmiland@***.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 21:09:19 EDT
In a message dated 5/22/00 11:21:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
sfuller@******.com.au writes:

> >The guards who transport cash between banks and shops to feed automated
> >teller machines (ATMs) and collect shop earnings went on strike on May 9
> >for more risk money following a series of brutal hold-ups, some with
> >bazookas and automatic weapons.
> >
> Ah, the French. Not even someone from the Southern US would hold someone up
> with a bazooka :?)

Texans, but... We all know they're different. Actually, I just want to say
that I don't agree that the French situation shows why cash-money will always
be necessary for some transactions. See, the French are screwed right now
because they were suddenly plunged into an armored-car strike, they had no
idea what the repercussions would be. But in the SR universe, they have a
good 37 years to build up to that (I think the first credstick appeared in
2037, right?), and that's already added on to the past 50-75 years of phasing
out cash.
Message no. 4
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 11:41:36 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Jkmiland@***.com <Jkmiland@***.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Cashless Society

>
>Texans, but... We all know they're different. Actually, I just want to say
>that I don't agree that the French situation shows why cash-money will
always
>be necessary for some transactions. See, the French are screwed right now
>because they were suddenly plunged into an armored-car strike, they had no
>idea what the repercussions would be. But in the SR universe, they have a
>good 37 years to build up to that (I think the first credstick appeared in
>2037, right?), and that's already added on to the past 50-75 years of
phasing
>out cash.
>
>
I agree. Anyway, with the way the world is going, globalisation and all that
evil, who's going to care if a beggar can't beg money any more? There is no
profit in supporting beggars, quite the contrary. As for tips, that could be
built into the payment system of a computerised account. You pay, the waiter
is automatically recorded, you press a button as to what percentage tip you
want to give, and the amount (minus tax) is added to the waiter's pay.
Clever restaraunts would have bells and buzzing lights to encourage patrons
to leave larger tips.
Message no. 5
From: C J Tipton arkades@****.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 20:35:20 -0500
From: Jkmiland@***.com
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 21:09:19 EDT
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Message-ID: <ee.5856791.265c85bf@***.com>

In a message dated 5/22/00 11:21:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
sfuller@******.com.au writes:

> >The guards who transport cash between banks and shops to feed
automated
> >teller machines (ATMs) and collect shop earnings went on strike on
May 9
> >for more risk money following a series of brutal hold-ups, some with
> >bazookas and automatic weapons.
> >
> Ah, the French. Not even someone from the Southern US would hold
someone up
> with a bazooka :?)

"Texans, but... We all know they're different. Actually, I just want to
say
that I don't agree that the French situation shows why cash-money will
always
be necessary for some transactions."

Them's fightin' words.<the COWBOY pats his Carl Gustav 84mm lovingly>
'Sides, we're only different cause
down hear we call 'em "recoilless rifles". And if Shadowrun has taught
us anything, it's that cash-money
WILL always be necessary for some transactions: the illegal ones! Try
writing a personal check to an
illegal arms dealer today, tomorrow or in 2050 and you'll end up on a
plate with a side of fries, and credit cards
tend to be viewed in a similar vein( one of yours most likely).
Credsticks are just a new shape for them to shove in
one of your various orifices.

"You've got to carry weapons cause you always carry cash... "
Glen Frey , "Smugglers Blues"

(Genuine Texas)COWBOY
CJ
Arkades@****.com



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Message no. 6
From: Jkmiland@***.com Jkmiland@***.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:02:20 EDT
In a message dated 5/23/00 6:59:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, arkades@****.com
writes:

> Them's fightin' words.<the COWBOY pats his Carl Gustav 84mm lovingly>
> 'Sides, we're only different cause
> down hear we call 'em "recoilless rifles". And if Shadowrun has taught
> us anything, it's that cash-money
> WILL always be necessary for some transactions: the illegal ones! Try
> writing a personal check to an
> illegal arms dealer today, tomorrow or in 2050 and you'll end up on a
> plate with a side of fries, and credit cards
> tend to be viewed in a similar vein( one of yours most likely).
> Credsticks are just a new shape for them to shove in
> one of your various orifices.

Of course cash is necessary for all the illegal things your usual runner
does. That's understood and accepted. When we talk of a 'cashless society', I
think it's fairly implicit (and assumed) that we're talking about -society-,
which shadowrunners clearly are not a part of (with exceptions). That is,
the legal side of life.
Message no. 7
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:33:51 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: C J Tipton <arkades@****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Cashless Society


>From: Jkmiland@***.com
>Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 21:09:19 EDT
>Subject: Re: Shadowrun Cashless Society
>Message-ID: <ee.5856791.265c85bf@***.com>
>
> And if Shadowrun has taught
>us anything, it's that cash-money
>WILL always be necessary for some transactions: the illegal ones! Try
>writing a personal check to an
>illegal arms dealer today, tomorrow or in 2050 and you'll end up on a
>plate with a side of fries, and credit cards
>tend to be viewed in a similar vein( one of yours most likely).
>Credsticks are just a new shape for them to shove in
>one of your various orifices.
>


In our games, this is why you need a fixer. Not only do you need a proper
credstick, but you also need a SIN to do things like buy weapons, ammo,
vehicles, anything that costs big money or can be used to commit crimes.
Until you are a well established runner and have a pile of fake SINs and
contacts of your own, the fixer is integral to day to day criminal living.
We do not have cash at all in our games. Sometimes it comes down to barter.
Message no. 8
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:31:58 -0400
Jkmiland@***.com wrote:

> <SNIP>
> Of course cash is necessary for all the illegal things your usual runner
> does. That's understood and accepted. When we talk of a 'cashless society', I
> think it's fairly implicit (and assumed) that we're talking about -society-,
> which shadowrunners clearly are not a part of (with exceptions). That is,
> the legal side of life.

I guess my view of the credstick is wrong. I thought that if you want to pay
someone you just pull out your credstick, type in the amount you want to
transfer, touch it to the other person's, and that touching creates a connection
which transfers the money from your credstick to the other person's. This payment
would be non-traceable. So when the Johnsons pay the runners (for instance), they
just tap the credstick to the players (or give new ones). That's also why most of
my chars have multiple credsticks. One with 500¥ or less, one with 3,000¥ or less
(depending on the transactions made using it), and one with the rest which is
safe at home. And others have lockers with survival kits scattered throughout the
city (a pistol, instant hair dye (different ones!), a first aid kit, and a
credstick with 5,000¥).

--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+)
gm+ M P
Message no. 9
From: C J Tipton arkades@****.com
Subject: Fw: Re: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 21:15:21 -0500
From: Jkmiland@***.com
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:02:20 EDT
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Message-ID: <e4.5528cad.265c922c@***.com>

>Of course cash is necessary for all the illegal things your usual runner

does. That's understood and accepted. When we talk of a 'cashless
society', I
think it's fairly implicit (and assumed) that we're talking about
-society-,
which shadowrunners clearly are not a part of (with exceptions). That
is,
the legal side of life.

Let me break down what you just said as a syllogism.
A-Hard cash is of no use to legit society.
B-Shadowrunners are not a part of legit society.
And C is shadowrunners are of no use to legit society.

We know C is bullshit due to the fact that most of the location source
materials put out by FASA have
legitimate governments & corporations putting out hard currency, and
because shadowrunners since the dawn of the 6th age have been taking
legitimate societies money to do things they want done.
In a syllogism, if the first 2 parts are true then the last part has to
be true.
So what is the truth?
"You can't handle the truth", because "the truth is that there is no
spoon".
"I have a bad feeling about this..."

And no more Texas cracks if you wanna live to see Star Wars.

(Six-gun totin') COWBOY
CJ
Arkades@****.com
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Message no. 10
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:54:34 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Strago <strago@***.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Cashless Society


>Jkmiland@***.com wrote:
>
>> <SNIP>
>> Of course cash is necessary for all the illegal things your usual runner
>> does. That's understood and accepted. When we talk of a 'cashless
society', I
>> think it's fairly implicit (and assumed) that we're talking
about -society-,
>> which shadowrunners clearly are not a part of (with exceptions). That
is,
>> the legal side of life.
>
>I guess my view of the credstick is wrong. I thought that if you want to
pay
>someone you just pull out your credstick, type in the amount you want to
>transfer, touch it to the other person's, and that touching creates a
connection
>which transfers the money from your credstick to the other person's. This
payment
>would be non-traceable. So when the Johnsons pay the runners (for
instance), they
>just tap the credstick to the players (or give new ones). That's also why
most of
>my chars have multiple credsticks. One with 500¥ or less, one with 3,000¥
or less
>(depending on the transactions made using it), and one with the rest which
is
>safe at home. And others have lockers with survival kits scattered
throughout the
>city (a pistol, instant hair dye (different ones!), a first aid kit, and a
>credstick with 5,000¥).
>
There are two types of credstick, certified and the other type. One contains
your personal details and SIN and all sorts of other stuff, and you need to
type in your PIN or use some other ID to use it. In this way, anyone with a
good deck and a bit of skill can trace a money trail back to you. If you
have no SIN, you can not have one of these. They are basically high tech
credit cards, but also supply details of all the other cards and things in
your wallet. The other one is just worth so much money, and you need no ID
to use it. I don't think money can be put back into them, but don't quote
me. These can be stolen and used by anyone, or handed over to someone else
for their cash value. The cash is recorded on the stick as opposed to being
linked to your bank account, and the stick is useless for personal ID and
such.
At least, that's how I understand it.
Message no. 11
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:02:30 -0500
On Wed, 24 May 2000 11:41:36 +1000 "Simon and Fiona"
<sfuller@******.com.au> writes:
<SNIP>
> I agree. Anyway, with the way the world is going, globalisation and
> all that
> evil, who's going to care if a beggar can't beg money any more?
> There is no
> profit in supporting beggars, quite the contrary.
<SNIP>

Beggars who can't beg, can't buy stuff... but they can steal it ...

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 12
From: Jkmiland@***.com Jkmiland@***.com
Subject: Fw: Re: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:45:48 EDT
In a message dated 5/23/00 7:36:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, arkades@****.com
writes:

> >Of course cash is necessary for all the illegal things your usual runner
>
> does. That's understood and accepted. When we talk of a 'cashless
> society', I
> think it's fairly implicit (and assumed) that we're talking about
> -society-,
> which shadowrunners clearly are not a part of (with exceptions). That
> is,
> the legal side of life.
>
> Let me break down what you just said as a syllogism.
> A-Hard cash is of no use to legit society.
> B-Shadowrunners are not a part of legit society.
> And C is shadowrunners are of no use to legit society.

<snip>

I think you're using the wrong syllogism. I think it ought to be structured
this way:
A-Hard cash is of no use to legit society.
B-Shadowrunners are not members of legit society.
Competion: Hard cash is only useful to shadowrunners or other non-members of
legit society.

> And no more Texas cracks if you wanna live to see Star Wars.

You haven't paid attention. I could care less about Star Wars, so that really
isn't much of a threat. A non-Texan could have gotten that (kidding...)
Message no. 13
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:14:18 -0500
On Tue, 23 May 2000 20:35:20 -0500 C J Tipton <arkades@****.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> Them's fightin' words.<the COWBOY pats his Carl Gustav 84mm
> lovingly>
> 'Sides, we're only different cause
> down hear we call 'em "recoilless rifles".

I hope you're joking. I think I'm going to have to move, just to get away
from you. ;)

> And if Shadowrun has
> taught
> us anything,

A scary phrase if I ever heard one ... :)

> it's that cash-money
> WILL always be necessary for some transactions: the illegal ones!
> Try
> writing a personal check to an
> illegal arms dealer today, tomorrow or in 2050 and you'll end up on
> a
> plate with a side of fries, and credit cards
> tend to be viewed in a similar vein( one of yours most likely).
> Credsticks are just a new shape for them to shove in
> one of your various orifices.

When eliminating cash goes up for a vote, I'm sure that'll be the first
argument to hit the floor ... ;)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 14
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 13:18:59 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Cashless Society


>On Wed, 24 May 2000 11:41:36 +1000 "Simon and Fiona"
><sfuller@******.com.au> writes:
><SNIP>
>> I agree. Anyway, with the way the world is going, globalisation and
>> all that
>> evil, who's going to care if a beggar can't beg money any more?
>> There is no
>> profit in supporting beggars, quite the contrary.
><SNIP>
>
>Beggars who can't beg, can't buy stuff... but they can steal it ...
>
>--
That's no reason to keep cash, that just gives an excuse to herd all the
homeless out of the cities. Anyway, if you set up charities to look after
them, then after all the bookkeeping and legislation fees, tax, and
overheads, 5c in the dollar will be looking after the homeless, the rest
will be making businessmen and the government richer. This happens today
with a lot of charities.
Message no. 15
From: C J Tipton arkades@****.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 21:53:21 -0500
From: Jkmiland@***.com
To: shadowrn@*********.com
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:45:48 EDT
Subject: Re: Fw: Re: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Message-ID: <2f.5ac01ba.265c9c5c@***.com>

In a message dated 5/23/00 7:36:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
arkades@****.com
writes:
> Let me break down what you just said as a syllogism.
> A-Hard cash is of no use to legit society.
> B-Shadowrunners are not a part of legit society.
> And C is shadowrunners are of no use to legit society.

<snip>

>I think you're using the wrong syllogism. I think it ought to be
structured
this way:
A-Hard cash is of no use to legit society.
B-Shadowrunners are not members of legit society.
Competion: Hard cash is only useful to shadowrunners or other non-members
of
legit society.

This semantic differance entirely fails to invalidate the point. Cash
gets made by legit folks cause legit folks need
shadowfolks and other criminals to perform key services. And that means
that edgerunners ARE a part of society,
even if they ain't considered polite company. It's a sociology paper in
the makin', college boy.

> And no more Texas cracks if you wanna live to see Star Wars.

>You haven't paid attention. I could care less about Star Wars, so that
really
isn't much of a threat. A non-Texan could have gotten that (kidding...)

"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum & villainy."
Yep. Texans tend to be a little slow with every thing but guns and
wisecracks.
Could account for tales of "Texas charm".

(Urban) COWBOY (hates Travolta)
CJ
Arkades@****.com


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Message no. 16
From: C J Tipton arkades@****.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:05:48 -0500
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:14:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Message-ID: <20000523.222101.-1671907.2.dghost@****.com>

On Tue, 23 May 2000 20:35:20 -0500 C J Tipton <arkades@****.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> Them's fightin' words.<the COWBOY pats his Carl Gustav 84mm
> lovingly>
> 'Sides, we're only different cause
> down hear we call 'em "recoilless rifles".

I hope you're joking. I think I'm going to have to move, just to get away
from you. ;)

> And if Shadowrun has
> taught
> us anything,

A scary phrase if I ever heard one ... :)

> it's that cash-money
> WILL always be necessary for some transactions: the illegal ones!
> Try
> writing a personal check to an
> illegal arms dealer today, tomorrow or in 2050 and you'll end up on
> a
> plate with a side of fries, and credit cards
> tend to be viewed in a similar vein( one of yours most likely).
> Credsticks are just a new shape for them to shove in
> one of your various orifices.

When eliminating cash goes up for a vote, I'm sure that'll be the first
argument to hit the floor ... ;)

--
D. Ghost


So much for my Texas charm.

COWBOY(tips his har to D.Ghost)
CJ
Arkades@****





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Message no. 17
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 00:57:07 -0700 (PDT)
<BigSNIP(TM)>
> This semantic differance entirely fails to
invalidate the point. Cash gets made by legit folks
cause legit folks need shadowfolks and other criminals
to perform key services. And that means that
edgerunners ARE a part of society, even if they ain't
considered polite company. It's a sociology paper in
the makin', college boy.
<Snippage(TM)>
> (Urban) COWBOY (hates Travolta)
> CJ
> Arkades@****.com

*Doc' shudders*

Please don't say that word, CJ. This isn't Cyberpunk
2020. :)

Btw, you both seem to be forgetting one thing.
Certified credsticks...

*Doc' gets a portable credstick verifier implanted in
his rectum...*

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 18
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 03:37:22 -0500
On Wed, 24 May 2000 00:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Rand
Ratinac?<docwagon101@*****.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> *Doc' gets a portable credstick verifier implanted in
> his rectum...*

Putting your money where your head is? ;)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 19
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 01:25:47 -0700 (PDT)
> > *Doc' gets a portable credstick verifier implanted
in> his rectum...*
>
> Putting your money where your head is? ;)
> D. Ghost

Actually, Al, the expression is "putting your money
where your mouth is"...but that's too much for even I
to contemplate...;)

Consider it a monkey thing...;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 20
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 12:47:05 +0200
According to Strago, at 22:31 on 23 May 00, the word on the street was...

> I guess my view of the credstick is wrong. I thought that if you want
> to pay someone you just pull out your credstick, type in the amount you
> want to transfer, touch it to the other person's, and that touching
> creates a connection which transfers the money from your credstick to
> the other person's. This payment would be non-traceable.

The way I see credsticks is like today's bank cards with magnetic strips
or chips embedded in them: you insert the card, type in your PIN (give
your fingerprint, say the code word, whatever) and the amount you have to
pay is deducted from the account your credstick is linked to. This is
certainly not untraceable, because the bank records how much money is
transferred, from which account it's taken, and into which account it's
deposited.

With certified credsticks, you've got essentially a stick that holds its
own money, and payment is deducted from that instead of from someone's
account. (Depending on your view of this system, a certified credstick
might be linked to an account that doesn't belong to anyone except the
credstick.) This also isn't untraceable, because the bank will record how
much mony is put onto which credstick, and who receives how much of that
money. The only thing you won't be able to determine here is who is
actually paying (but you do know who put the money onto the credstick in
the first place).

> And others have lockers with survival kits scattered throughout the city
> (a pistol, instant hair dye (different ones!), a first aid kit, and a
> credstick with 5,000¥).

Judging by several threads on another mailing list about this subject, I'd
stick more than that in those bags if I were you.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: Raveness Ravensbane ravenessravensbane@*****.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 05:34:09 -0700 (PDT)
> Of course cash is necessary for all the illegal
> things your usual runner
> does. That's understood and accepted. When we talk
> of a 'cashless society', I
> think it's fairly implicit (and assumed) that we're
> talking about -society-,
> which shadowrunners clearly are not a part of (with
> exceptions). That is,
> the legal side of life.
>
Do you really think that Gold and Silver would ever
really leave society? I mean it's been a form of
currency in so many forms for so long...I can picture
gold and silver coins staying in the market...possibly
being paid in diamonds...*shrug* Maybe using the
barter system more... or even those beautiful
anonymous swiss bank accounts...


====~Raveness

http://www.sova.net/trish/roleplaying/shadowrun/pocketsecretary/

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Message no. 22
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 05:50:31 -0700 (PDT)
<Snippola(TM)>
> With certified credsticks, you've got essentially a
stick that holds its own money, and payment is
deducted from that instead of from someone's account.
(Depending on your view of this system, a certified
credstick might be linked to an account that doesn't
belong to anyone except the credstick.) This also
isn't untraceable, because the bank will record how
much mony is put onto which credstick,

Everything you said previously is correct, Gurth. I'd
tend to disagree with this latest contention, though -
it says somewhere in a book that the certified
credsticks are traceable in that the bank retains
records of the credstick NUMBERS and who purchased
them - it doesn't say anything about recording how
much money is put on it and I don't think they do. So
you could find out who originally purchased a
particular credstick from a bank, but it's deniable,
because there's no paper trail - there's nothing to
say the purchasers gave it to the shadowrunners who
got caught with it, for example, because it could have
passed through MANY sets of hands.

> and who receives how much of that money.

And I STRENUOUSLY disagree with that. It clearly says
in the rules that the money is "in" the stick - no
private accounts or anything like that. Once the money
goes into the stick, it pretty much vanishes from the
system until it's paid from the stick into another
account and there's no paper trail to link the stick
and the account.

We've already hashed this out before. It's clear from
what the books say and from the simple intention
behind them is that certified credsticks are the
small, untraceable bills of the electronics age.

> The only thing you won't be able to determine here
is who is actually paying (but you do know who put the
money onto the credstick in the first place).
> Gurth@******.nl -

Well, it's true that you can't determine the actual
payor, but that's far from the ONLY thing you can't
determine. And yes, if you can access the bank records
(which is nigh impossible if the bank is
extraterritorial, unless you're the bank itself -
remember that, boys and girls; if the bank is part of
a megacorp (or is the Zurich-Orbital Gemeinschaft) it
has NO obligation to disclose to ANYONE who bought a
particular credstick, or anything else about the stick
- and, if it's smart, it won't except under the most
extreme circumstances (as soon as a bank starts
telling outside authorities who's been doing the nuyen
can-can, any customer it has that does any shady
dealings is going to go elsewhere, because those
dealings might get exposed and then the bank goes
bust)) you can trace the original purchaser of the
stick, but that means nothing, because you can't trace
whose hands it's been through in the meantime.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

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Message no. 23
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 18:35:47 +0200
And finally, Gurth expressed himself by writing:

<snip>

> Judging by several threads on another mailing list about this
> subject, I'd stick more than that in those bags if I were you.

he forgot the lawyer, IIRC

;)

--
arclight
Sind sie verrueckt?!? - Sogar mit Attest.
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14322211]
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Message no. 24
From: Scot Hayworth scoth@*********.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 11:16:31 -0600
Jkmiland@***.com wrote:

> <SNIP>
> Of course cash is necessary for all the illegal things your usual runner
> does. That's understood and accepted. When we talk of a 'cashless
society', I
> think it's fairly implicit (and assumed) that we're talking about
-society-,
> which shadowrunners clearly are not a part of (with exceptions). That is,
> the legal side of life.

I guess my view of the credstick is wrong. I thought that if you want to pay
someone you just pull out your credstick, type in the amount you want to
transfer, touch it to the other person's, and that touching creates a
connection
which transfers the money from your credstick to the other person's. This
payment
would be non-traceable. So when the Johnsons pay the runners (for instance),
they
just tap the credstick to the players (or give new ones). That's also why
most of
my chars have multiple credsticks. One with 500¥ or less, one with 3,000¥ or
less
(depending on the transactions made using it), and one with the rest which
is
safe at home. And others have lockers with survival kits scattered
throughout the
city (a pistol, instant hair dye (different ones!), a first aid kit, and a
credstick with 5,000¥).

--
--Strago


well I thought I read somewhere that there was a certified credstick which
is issued by a bank that is not issued to an account for withdrawal...the
Credstick actually has the "money" on it. you have the credsticks that are
by account transfers and you have these certified sticks with the money on
them...

Scot
Message no. 25
From: Mathena, Timothy A. Tim.Mathena@************.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 10:22:15 -0700
> he forgot the lawyer, IIRC
>

Hey hey...easy I work for a Law Firm

-Rookie
Message no. 26
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:26:30 +0200
According to Raveness Ravensbane, at 5:34 on 24 May 00, the word on the
street was...

> Do you really think that Gold and Silver would ever really leave
> society? I mean it's been a form of currency in so many forms for so
> long...I can picture gold and silver coins staying in the
> market...possibly being paid in diamonds...*shrug*

The down side of these sorts of payments is that their value fluctuates.
Money's value does too, but only when compared to other currencies
(excepting inflation, but this happens slowly enough in most countries to
be only noticeable to the person in the street in retrospect -- "I
remember when ice cream cost 75 cents, but now it's a whole guilder").

> Maybe using the barter system more...

Won't really work on a large scale, unless you use fixed prices for
everything, but then you're not really bartering -- you're just selling
something and buying something else of equal value at the same time,
leaving money out of the deal for convenience.

> or even those beautiful anonymous swiss bank accounts...

That assumes you can get a Swiss bank account as a shadowrunner. Certified
credsticks would be the easiest substitute: about as anonymous, and much
easier to pay someone with.

This could lead to an interesting investigation adventure: the PCs are
hired to track down someone for some reason, and the only real lead is a
certified credstick used by that person. That means finding out who
originally had the credstick certified (i.e. went to a bank and had them
put money on it), and from there tracking down everyone else who owned
that same credstick at some point in the past.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 27
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:26:30 +0200
According to Rand Ratinac, at 5:50 on 24 May 00, the word on the street
was...

> Everything you said previously is correct, Gurth. I'd
> tend to disagree with this latest contention, though -
> it says somewhere in a book that the certified
> credsticks are traceable in that the bank retains
> records of the credstick NUMBERS and who purchased
> them - it doesn't say anything about recording how
> much money is put on it and I don't think they do.

That would be stupid IMHO, because it invites fraud on a MASSIVE scale.
You get a 1Y certified credstick, add a bunch of zeroes using your
computer at home, and you've got an unlimited supply of money. Banks would
need to know how much money is put onto a certified credstick so that the
system can tell if someone is counterfeiting electronic money.

> > and who receives how much of that money.
>
> And I STRENUOUSLY disagree with that. It clearly says
> in the rules that the money is "in" the stick - no
> private accounts or anything like that. Once the money
> goes into the stick, it pretty much vanishes from the
> system until it's paid from the stick into another
> account

That's basically what I said. The money goes onto the stick, and re-
appears in someone's account.

> and there's no paper trail to link the stick and the account.

Not that I'm an accountant, but it seems to me that these would be very
poor bookkeeping practices...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 28
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 19:26:30 +0200
According to Arclight, at 18:35 on 24 May 00, the word on the street
was...

> > Judging by several threads on another mailing list about this
> > subject, I'd stick more than that in those bags if I were you.
>
> he forgot the lawyer, IIRC

*checks old message* Yes, he did. Lawyers, guns, and money are the most
important things, apparently :)

Date sent: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 01:18:13 -0600
From: "Robert J. Hansen" <rjhansen@****.net>
To: millenniums-end-l@*******.com
Subject: [ME]: Portable God-Forbid Bags
Send reply to: millenniums-end-l@*******.com

A while ago someone on the list suggested the use of small God Forbid
bags which could be carried under the seat of a car, on the person,
etc. I'm going to *attempt* to categorize the important things to
include in this bag.

Things to remember when packing your personal bag:

* Carry only the absolute essentials needed to SURVIVE. We're not
talking about the essentials needed to continue a mission; we're talking
the essentials needed to survive long enough to regroup.
* Keep It Simple, Stupid.

1. Lawyers, Guns and Money
With these three you've got nothing to fear. However, not all three
should be in your emergency pack. A copy of a PI license, driver's
license and other essential ID would be a good idea, as well as forged
papers if possible.
Guns should not be carried in the personal God Forbid bag. The reason
is very simple: guns take up considerable weight and volume which could
be better spent with other equipment. On top of that, it is very likely
that the operative will already be carrying a gun on his/her body;
therefore, another gun would be redundant. Carrying around a spare
magazine and/or box of cartridges might be a prudent move, though.
Money is not essential, but it helps. $100 cash is enough to gep you a
hotel room for a night, enough to get a bus straight out of town, enough
to do lots of important things.
A roll of quarters is always handy for vending machines and the like.
Lawyers, guns and money should take up very little weight and/or volume
in your pack. Most of this stuff is compressible in the extreme, and
identity papers are fairly light.

2. Communications, Command and Control
If you can't talk to your teammates, you're as good as gone. When
communications fail, everything else is poised to soon fail. If your
operative is separated from the group, re-establishing communications is
an absolutely critical priority. To this end, carry a cellphone in your
portable bag. Ensure that it is registered under a false name, one
which you have *never* used *anywhere else*. Even then, assume the cell
phone is compromised; the cell phone is a last-ditch emergency
communications tool, not your regular one.
Your regular communications tool should be a $50 pre-paid calling card
-- two of them, if possible. Payphones in public areas are the best
ones to use them in.
*Do not* keep a list of "important phone numbers" in your bag. Nor
should you program the cellphone with speed-dial numbers. If you do
this and you get captured, you give your adversaries an enormous amount
of very useful intel.

3. "MEDIC!"
Pack along a first-aid kit. This can quite literally be the difference
between life and death. It will occupy a fair bit of space in your
pack, but don't worry about it; it'll be space and weight well-used.
Your first aid kit should not be a standard hiking first-aid-kit that
you buy over the counter at Wal-Mart (hell, even the hardcore hikers
that I know make their own instead of using those). I am not a medical
authority, so take this as a best guess instead of a hard and fast rule:

* Foil blanket. Not only is this good for warmth, it can be used as a
makeshift tarp/poncho, and can also be used to staunch some of the
nastier varieties of thoracic wounds.
* Sterile gauze dressing. Don't even bother with the small 2-inch
pads; if you're hurt badly enough to need first aid, you're hurt badly
enough to break out the 4x4s, the 8x4s, etc. A dressing the size of a
largish paperback book is good; make sure it's nice and thick, something
that can really absorb a lot of bodily fluids.
* Rubber gloves. You might have to use these things on someone else,
after all, and the risk of blood-borne disease is just too darn high.
* Ace bandages are handy. So is athletic tape. You only really need
one or the other, though, and my bet's on the tape.
* Forceps are a nice addition if you have the room. Tweezers, too.
* NO ASPIRIN. Aspirin is an anticoagulant; if you take aspirin, your
blood will take much longer to clot. This has the potential to kill you
if you take a penetrating wound. Instead, pack along ibuprofen and
acetaminophen.
* A small bottle of Betadine goes a long way towards minimizing the
risk of infection. Alternately, pack along a bottle of Hibiclens hand
soap -- it's the real deal of antibacterial soaps, unlike the weak
triclosan-based ones available on the market today.
* A disposable razor, a toothbrush, a travel-size bar of soap and
travel-size tube of toothpaste add very little to the size of the first
aid kit, but can do wonders to improve your quality of life when you're
on the run.

... Remember that the purpose of this first-aid kit isn't to treat the
minor dings and scrapes in life; it's to treat potentially
life-threatening wounds in such a manner as to give you a decent chance
of surviving long enough to get to the hospital. The secondary purpose
is to treat minor wounds promptly with antibacterials, to keep them from
becoming infected.
If you think that this first-aid kit is overkill, it may well be. But
if your operative takes a 9mm to the upper arm while getting away,
you'll be needing almost everything in it. This first-aid kit will
likely be bulky, but it should be able to fit in a fanny pack without
much difficulty.

4. Other Tools
A Leatherman multitool or a Swiss Army Knife is always, always a good
bet. They are simply too versatile not to include in a personal bag.
If your character has the requisite skills, a Yawara stick (Kubotan)
can be a small but very useful weapon.
A small pair of binoculars is hardly a necessity, but it could easily
become useful.
Handcuffs (should be self-explanatory)
Candy bars
Don't pack along a MagLite; they weigh too much. Instead, look into a
short-duration high-intensity Cyalume lightstick. The 12-hour ones are
pretty useless for illumination, but the shorter-duration ones work
pretty well. I'm currently sitting in a darkened room with a Cyalume
stick beside me; I wanted to see how long it lasted until it was
completely out. So far this 12-hour stick has gone 30 hours.
Unfortunately, it never was very bright at any point over the last 30
hours...
-
====================the millenniums-end-l mailing list===================....To
unsubscribe, email the words "unsubscribe millenniums-end-L" to....
...."majordomo@*******.com". For more info on Millennium's End, visit.....
......Chameleon Eclectic's web site at www.chameleon-eclectic.com........
Message no. 29
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 17:39:43 GMT
>From: Strago <strago@***.com>
>I guess my view of the credstick is wrong. I thought that if you want to
>pay
>someone you just pull out your credstick, type in the amount you want to
>transfer, touch it to the other person's, and that touching creates a
>connection
>which transfers the money from your credstick to the other person's. This
>payment
>would be non-traceable. So when the Johnsons pay the runners (for
>instance), they
>just tap the credstick to the players (or give new ones).

That is kind of right; if the credstick actually belongs to someone the bank
is going to know about money that goes into and out of it. A certified
credsitic is one that does not belong to anyone in particular, these change
hands often and (genrally) this is what Johnsons in my games pay in.

>That's also why most of
>my chars have multiple credsticks...

That is actually a good idea, the players I GM for are all assumed to have
their money on various certified credsticks if they don't have an SIN and a
normal credstick of a level depending on how much cash they are used to as
well as many certified 'sticks.

Phil
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Message no. 30
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:18:12 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Thursday, May 25, 2000 3:24 AM
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Cashless Society

>That would be stupid IMHO, because it invites fraud on a MASSIVE scale.
You get a 1Y certified credstick, add a bunch of zeroes using your
computer at home, and you've got an unlimited supply of money. Banks would
need to know how much money is put onto a certified credstick so that the
>system can tell if someone is counterfeiting electronic money.

_____

I assumed that you could take money out of a certified credstick, but not
put it back in. Once all the money was taken out you'd have to get a new
one. We used to have phone cards like that but more low tech, where you
bought a five dollar card, and every time you used it for a phone call, the
amount used would be recorded on it, until the card was worthless.
Obviously such a credstick would not be immune to fraud, but there are
counterfeiters today, and they haven't destabilised the economy.
Message no. 31
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 11:22:38 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Raveness Ravensbane <ravenessravensbane@*****.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Cashless Society


>Do you really think that Gold and Silver would ever
>really leave society? I mean it's been a form of
>currency in so many forms for so long...I can picture
>gold and silver coins staying in the market...possibly
>being paid in diamonds...*shrug* Maybe using the
>barter system more... or even those beautiful
>anonymous swiss bank accounts...
>
>
>====>~Raveness


Australia recently sold off a third of it's gold reserves, with very little
effect on the economy. Not long after that the gold value plummeted, and if
we hadn't tied ourselves to the US dollar so tightly we wouldn't have been
much affected. Gold as a symbol of wealth is obsolete in First World
nations, but is taking a long time to fade.
Message no. 32
From: Dan Grabon djmoose@******.kornet.net
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:13:00 +0900
On 5/25/00 2:26 AM, Gurth at gurth@******.nl wrote:

> According to Rand Ratinac, at 5:50 on 24 May 00, the word on the street
> was...
>
>> Everything you said previously is correct, Gurth. I'd
>> tend to disagree with this latest contention, though -
>> it says somewhere in a book that the certified
>> credsticks are traceable in that the bank retains
>> records of the credstick NUMBERS and who purchased
>> them - it doesn't say anything about recording how
>> much money is put on it and I don't think they do.
> That would be stupid IMHO, because it invites fraud on a MASSIVE scale.
> You get a 1Y certified credstick, add a bunch of zeroes using your
> computer at home, and you've got an unlimited supply of money. Banks would
> need to know how much money is put onto a certified credstick so that the
> system can tell if someone is counterfeiting electronic money.
OK, let's take a look at certified/cashier's checks today. Well, at least
as we have them here in Korea; I've never had the need to use them in other
countries, but I assume they work the same way. You basically go to the
bank and get a check drawn on the bank itself, not any individual account.
That check has an issuing number, the name of the bank, and a pre-determined
amount. But there is no "Pay to the order of" form. From there, it
essentially works like cash-- you can give it to whomever you want. That
person in turn can give it to whomever they want, or they can deposit it in
their account. Doing so can (and probably will) be recorded by the bank,
since they'll still have the check number on file. So basically, it's cash
with a bank record on it.

Now, the base SR3 rules do say the credstick is encoded with raw funds, but
that's pretty stupid. As Gurth said, if there's no tracking, that invites
major fraud. There's just no practical reason why banks would issue such a
thing. The way a certified credstick *could* work is to be just like a
regular credstick but with no account or name (other than the bank's)
attached to it. Using the credstick would still leave a record with a bank,
but would not have an attached name or an ID check. The bank can probably
figure out which credstick the funds came from and who purchased it
originally, but there's nothing saying that the transaction took place while
the stick was still in the original purchaser's hands. I'm also guessing
that for security reasons you cannot transfer funds to a certified
credstick, only from one.

Johnsons and runners would probably go through several steps to protect
their identities. First, Johnsons would have someone else purchase the
certified credsticks, maybe even through a shell company or something... at
least through an innocuous-looking department. He *gives* the certified
credsticks to the runners, doesn't just transfer the balance to their own
sticks. The runners, if they're smart, *never* transfer the funds to their
own credsticks. Instead, they use the certified credsticks for all their
shopping needs. When they buy something at a store, records show that it
was the original guy's purchase. There's nothing about the Johnson or the
runner. That's a pretty good paper (well, data) trail-- enough for the bank
to know they're not getting ripped off, and enough for the Johnson and
runner to feel safe that no one can trace them.

-moose

---
Dan "Moose" Grabon - djmoose@******.kornet.net
There comes a time in every man's life when he has to look the potato of
injustice right in the eye.
--Stanley Spadowski
Message no. 33
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 20:25:24 -0700 (PDT)
> > Everything you said previously is correct, Gurth.
I'd tend to disagree with this latest contention,
though - it says somewhere in a book that the
certified credsticks are traceable in that the bank
retains records of the credstick NUMBERS and who
purchased them - it doesn't say anything about
recording how much money is put on it and I don't
think they do.
>
> That would be stupid IMHO, because it invites fraud
on a MASSIVE scale. You get a 1Y certified credstick,
add a bunch of zeroes using your computer at home, and
you've got an unlimited supply of money. Banks would
need to know how much money is put onto a certified
credstick so that the system can tell if someone is
counterfeiting electronic money.

Two things here, one canon and one a suggestion which
I think makes a lot of sense. Credsticks have GRADES.
Each grade of credstick can only hold a certain amount
of money. Banks WILL NOT give you an ebony credstick
(5 mil limit, or something like that - maybe just 1
mil) if you're only putting 1 nuyen on it. They'd give
you the lowest grade - a basic one - which can only
hold 5k. In fact, I'd suggest that there would be a
MINIMUM, below which the banks would not issue
certified sticks, probably of half to 75% of the stick
capacity. That would cut down on fraud to a large
degree.

Secondly, I would suggest the banks would make the
sticks "tamper-proof". Sure, you could try to tamper
with it, but if you stuff up, poof, the stick melts
down or something and you LOSE all the money that was
on it. Or something along those lines. So tell me,
who's going to risk that million they put onto the
stick in order to double it (or make even less,
possibly, depending on the limit)?

In any event, how does recording the amount put on the
stick help? You don't have to deposit everything from
a certified stick at once. You simply can't ADD extra
money to them. So what's to stop you paying all but 1
nuyen into one account, fiddling the stick to set it
back to the original amount and depositing into
another account, repeat ad infinitum?

> > and there's no paper trail to link the stick and
the account.
>
> Not that I'm an accountant, but it seems to me that
these would be very poor bookkeeping practices...
> Gurth@******.nl

Which is why I think certified sticks were an
invention of megacorps to facilitate illegal
transfers, but they caught on with the general public
because they're useful for other reasons. It may be
poor bookkeeping, but it's fairly clear that it's how
it works. Certified credsticks are designed to be
untraceable, as much as any electronic transfer is.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

S.S. f. P.S.C. & D.J.

.sig Sauer

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 34
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:12:50 +0200
According to Mathena, Timothy A., at 10:22 on 24 May 00, the word on the
street was...

> Hey hey...easy I work for a Law Firm

We sort of deduced that already from the huge disclaimer your mailer
sticks underneath your posts :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 35
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:12:50 +0200
According to Dan Grabon, at 10:13 on 25 May 00, the word on the street
was...

> Now, the base SR3 rules do say the credstick is encoded with raw funds, but
> that's pretty stupid. As Gurth said, if there's no tracking, that invites
> major fraud. There's just no practical reason why banks would issue such a
> thing. The way a certified credstick *could* work is to be just like a
> regular credstick but with no account or name (other than the bank's)
> attached to it.

That's what I suggested too, last time this thread popped up (mainly
because I thought about how I would do this, rather than look in the
sourcebooks for an answer), but I got shot down with quotes of "But SR3
says..."

> I'm also guessing that for security reasons you cannot transfer funds to
> a certified credstick, only from one.

If a certified credstick were linked to a bank account containing the
actual funds, I don't think that would be necessary.

> Johnsons and runners would probably go through several steps to protect
> their identities. First, Johnsons would have someone else purchase the
> certified credsticks, maybe even through a shell company or something... at
> least through an innocuous-looking department. He *gives* the certified
> credsticks to the runners, doesn't just transfer the balance to their own
> sticks.

That's the way Johnsons in my games usually pay the runners: they give
them certified credsticks.


--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 36
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:12:50 +0200
According to Simon and Fiona, at 11:18 on 25 May 00, the word on the
street was...

> I assumed that you could take money out of a certified credstick, but not
> put it back in. Once all the money was taken out you'd have to get a new
> one.

And you seriously think nobody would try to crack open a credstick and
figure out what makes it tick? Not to mention how to mess with it?

> We used to have phone cards like that but more low tech, where you
> bought a five dollar card, and every time you used it for a phone call, the
> amount used would be recorded on it, until the card was worthless.

Same here. They used to have a magnetic strip, but nowadays they're chip-
based.

> Obviously such a credstick would not be immune to fraud, but there are
> counterfeiters today, and they haven't destabilised the economy.

That's probably because forging money is very hard to do these days. In
SR, they'd also try to make it difficult, but I do think that forging
electronic money is much easier than it is with paper money.

All reasons why it would be much better for a certified credstick to link
back to a bank account, IMHO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 37
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:12:50 +0200
According to Rand Ratinac, at 20:25 on 24 May 00, the word on the street
was...

> Two things here, one canon and one a suggestion which
> I think makes a lot of sense. Credsticks have GRADES.
> Each grade of credstick can only hold a certain amount
> of money. Banks WILL NOT give you an ebony credstick
> (5 mil limit, or something like that - maybe just 1
> mil) if you're only putting 1 nuyen on it. They'd give
> you the lowest grade - a basic one - which can only
> hold 5k.

Noted, but US$5000 is still a lot of money. Even if you can "only"
increase the limit to that, you can pay for quite a lot of stuff if you
have a few of them.

> In fact, I'd suggest that there would be a MINIMUM, below which the
> banks would not issue certified sticks, probably of half to 75% of the
> stick capacity. That would cut down on fraud to a large degree.

That's a very high minimum, IMHO, though I agree most banks would probably
put a lower limit on it.

> Secondly, I would suggest the banks would make the
> sticks "tamper-proof". Sure, you could try to tamper
> with it, but if you stuff up, poof, the stick melts
> down or something and you LOSE all the money that was
> on it. Or something along those lines. So tell me,
> who's going to risk that million they put onto the
> stick in order to double it (or make even less,
> possibly, depending on the limit)?

Solution: transfer 999,999Y from the certified credstick (say, to a
regular account) and then mess with it. At most, you'll lose 1Y that way.

> In any event, how does recording the amount put on the
> stick help? You don't have to deposit everything from
> a certified stick at once. You simply can't ADD extra
> money to them. So what's to stop you paying all but 1
> nuyen into one account, fiddling the stick to set it
> back to the original amount and depositing into
> another account, repeat ad infinitum?

Like I said many times before: link a certified credstick to an account
set up for that credstick, and all your problems disappear. The stick will
only pay money for as long as there is any in its account, the banks can
track all the money, and you can't increase the stick's value at home.

> Which is why I think certified sticks were an
> invention of megacorps to facilitate illegal
> transfers, but they caught on with the general public
> because they're useful for other reasons. It may be
> poor bookkeeping, but it's fairly clear that it's how
> it works. Certified credsticks are designed to be
> untraceable, as much as any electronic transfer is.

Which IMHO they could never be, without risking large-scale fraud with
them.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 38
From: Jan Jaap van Poelgeest aka nevermelt jjp@******.nl
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:46:55 +0200
Gurth et al:

> > Obviously such a credstick would not be immune to fraud, but there
are
> > counterfeiters today, and they haven't destabilised the economy.
>
> That's probably because forging money is very hard to do these days.
In
> SR, they'd also try to make it difficult, but I do think that forging
> electronic money is much easier than it is with paper money.

*prays some of these points haven't been brought up yet... haven't been
following the discussion too closely*

Actually, as certified credsticks will certainly carry some hefty
protection mechanisms against fraud, it won't be easy to just "add"
money to them. For example: tamper-detection, could mean a signal is
sent to authorities every time the stick is used after tampering. Then
there's also the fact that the encryption on the sticks is going to be
virtually impossible to crack (unless you've got a few spare ebony
sticks lying around to rent a "Cray mk19 V9.02" so you can break the
encryption on the single ebony you've got, after a year or so, that is).
Other methods of security could involve certified credsticks having
hardware that is flashed every time something is withdrawn, this
flashing would use encryption keys etc. coming from the bank that issued
the stick in the first place. This would result, however, in certified
credsticks not being usable in non-Matrix connected readers at all
(unlike standard 'sticks), which isn't all that bad a limitation in the
first place.
Of course, this last method of fraud prevention (flashing) is only truly
relevant if one assumes that the credsticks "carry the money within
themselves" i.e: the "linked account" method is discarded (though I
actually consider both methods equally feasible).
Finally, as a slight side note: I have certified credsticks carry a
deposit fee: most of the hardware within is of such value that it's
worth salvaging and thus every time my players empty another 'stick they
can opt to bring it back to the issuing authority for a 10Y deposit fee.

w00t on,

Jan Jaap van Poelgeest aka nevermelt
Message no. 39
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 09:51:23 -0600
Gurth wrote:
>According to Rand Ratinac, at 20:25 on 24 May 00, the word on the street
>was...
>
> > In any event, how does recording the amount put on the
> > stick help? You don't have to deposit everything from
> > a certified stick at once. You simply can't ADD extra
> > money to them. So what's to stop you paying all but 1
> > nuyen into one account, fiddling the stick to set it
> > back to the original amount and depositing into
> > another account, repeat ad infinitum?
>
>Like I said many times before: link a certified credstick to an account
>set up for that credstick, and all your problems disappear. The stick will
>only pay money for as long as there is any in its account, the banks can
>track all the money, and you can't increase the stick's value at home.

This is how I run it in my games. A credstick grants easy access to an
anonymous account, like a phone card or a Dave & Busters game
card. However, credsticks have a variety of security features that make it
almost impossible to duplicate them. Note that I don't even try to
postulate what the security features might be. If a runner ever wants to
duplicate a credstick I'm going to tell him that it will requires a full
electronics shop with a significant rating, that it will take a lot of
time, and that the TN for the test will be really high. I.e., it isn't
likely to happen in their lifetime. And if a runner wants to change the
amount available on a credstick, they will have to make a run on the bank
(not a good idea <EGMG>), or deposit or withdraw money from the account
legally.

And yes, banks do track the money spent through a credstick. However,
those records are considered private information. But if a mega is trying
to track a PC, and they own the bank that owns the certified credsticks the
PC is using...

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Warm nights, good food, kindred spirits....great life!"
Message no. 40
From: Augustus shadowrun@*********.net
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 10:08:57 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: <dbuehrer@******.carl.org>
>
> However, credsticks have a variety of security features that make it
> almost impossible to duplicate them. Note that I don't even try to
> postulate what the security features might be. If a runner ever wants to
> duplicate a credstick I'm going to tell him that it will requires a full
> electronics shop with a significant rating, that it will take a lot of
> time, and that the TN for the test will be really high.

Its suprising how many people don't seem to see it this way...

Everybody here seems to be under the impression that the security features
on credsticks are just whipped up on an old VIC-20 or something...

My take on the matter:

"Somebody" has to honour the credstick... that is... the money has to be
someplace...

If its a personal account, then the money resides in the account until it is
spent... the credstick would access that account in the same manner as a
bank card.

For a "blank credstick", it would work in a similar fashion as a bank draft
or money order... or even think of it as a temporary anonymous account...
maybe even like a bearer bond... whoever holds it can access and spend the
money.

But the money on the stick would still be encoded... and with the size of
memory today, and the security that is out there now, moving that into the
Shadowrun future.. .where tech is better... I would figure there'd be
significant security on a credstick... perhaps along the lines of a 1000+
character alphanumeric key... with the banks/corps holding the keys, and the
credstick, with its copy of the key, accesses those funds.

Anyhow... when money is transfered from one credstick to another... a copy
of the credsticks serial number (probably a 1000+ digit key on its own) with
the money's key (another 1000+ digit key) being transfered over as well...
This would prevent multiple credsticks from accessing the same money key...
since the "new" credstick would have that money's 1000 digit key and 1000
digit credstick key of the issuing credstick the money came off of,
invalidating those funds off the original credstick.

Thats, atleast, how I see it as being.

Augustus
Message no. 41
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:01:35 GMT
>From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
>You simply can't ADD extra
>money to them. So what's to stop you paying all but 1
>nuyen into one account, fiddling the stick to set it
>back to the original amount and depositing into
>another account, repeat ad infinitum?

I always imagined that a credstick _is_ a bank account, or rather a portable
representation of one. You have an account with a bank, they give you a
credstick and when you want to pay for something (after all the ID stuff)
the details of this transaction go to the bank and they score off the
ammount of cash you have acordingly. Therefore putting it all in another
account is simply transfering your money from one account to another.

A fake credstick will contain a programme that tells the shop's computer
that it has recieved conformation of the transaction from the bank.

Phil
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Message no. 42
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 19:11:23 GMT
Dear me Hotmail is being temprimental today.

Anyway, on my travels I have found
http://shadowrun.html.com/archive/ArchiveShowArticle.php3?IDP2
This is the basis of most of my ideas on Credsticks.

Phil
________________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 43
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 15:48:53 -0500
Grant nicely describe "escrow keys" by typing-
>>>This is how I run it in my games. A credstick grants easy access to an
:anonymous account, like a phone card or a Dave & Busters game
:card. However, credsticks have a variety of security features that make it
:almost impossible to duplicate them. Note that I don't even try to
:postulate what the security features might be. If a runner ever wants to
:duplicate a credstick I'm going to tell him that it will requires a full
:electronics shop with a significant rating, that it will take a lot of
:time, and that the TN for the test will be really high. I.e., it isn't
:likely to happen in their lifetime. And if a runner wants to change the
:amount available on a credstick, they will have to make a run on the bank
:(not a good idea <EGMG>), or deposit or withdraw money from the account
:legally.
:
:And yes, banks do track the money spent through a credstick. However,
:those records are considered private information. But if a mega is trying
:to track a PC, and they own the bank that owns the certified credsticks the
:PC is using...<<<

I believe an "electronic cash" medium that was actually intended to
protect privacy in any effective manner would take the extra step of having
the instutions holding those accounts anonomously and radomly make a
periodic (and frequent) re-assigingment of the the banks which hold those
accounts. Obviosuly, it would be best if the radomization was done so that
each banks acounts remaind stable, or at least could be blanced by other
transactions. Therefore, the corp might notice some of the transactions
made with a stick, but due to the large number of competing institutions and
rapid "account rotations", would not know when or if other transactions were
made using that stick.
The number of competing institutions (not all of them owned by
meagacorps) that hold these accounts (earning interst on them for the few
seconds they hold them, which adds up, if you are always getting new
accounts in exchange for the old) would be large enough to make tracing the
transactions virtually impossible, and would even make the chance of
catching a single "flagged" stick making a transaction pretty low.
The question is, when used, how does the reader of the cred stick verify
that its account exists at some unpredictable location? I suppose thestick
would have to be able to somehow "predict" where its account would end up,
and tell the reader that, which means the institution issueing it would
probably have the same info. Unless this was based partly on infomation
genrated by some truey random process (say, time of use) and integrated into
the "random account assignment" routine each time the stick was used.

Mongoose

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Message no. 44
From: Tzeentch tzeentch666@*********.net
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 16:41:49 -0700
From: "Sebastian Wiers" <m0ng005e@*********.com>
> :And yes, banks do track the money spent through a credstick. However,
> :those records are considered private information. But if a mega is
trying
> :to track a PC, and they own the bank that owns the certified credsticks
the
> :PC is using...<<<

Isn't that the whole reasoning behind cyberpunk staples like "face banks?"

> I believe an "electronic cash" medium that was actually intended to
> protect privacy in any effective manner would take the extra step of
having
> the instutions holding those accounts anonomously and radomly make a
> periodic (and frequent) re-assigingment of the the banks which hold those
> accounts. Obviosuly, it would be best if the radomization was done so
that
> each banks acounts remaind stable, or at least could be blanced by other
> transactions. Therefore, the corp might notice some of the transactions
> made with a stick, but due to the large number of competing institutions
and
> rapid "account rotations", would not know when or if other transactions
were
> made using that stick.

That won't work becaue the banks would be losing the primary method they
make money - investing the money deposited in the bank. In fact such "random
rotation" is of dubious legality and usefulness to begin with since it also
means that legitimate legal tracing would be impeded.

It's not tenable IRL or Shadowrun to have such a system. Privacy is at best
a tertiary concern for those involved ;)

> The number of competing institutions (not all of them owned by
> meagacorps) that hold these accounts (earning interst on them for the few
> seconds they hold them, which adds up, if you are always getting new
> accounts in exchange for the old) would be large enough to make tracing
the
> transactions virtually impossible, and would even make the chance of
> catching a single "flagged" stick making a transaction pretty low.

They don't really make money on the interest, they make it by investing the
money. If it was rotating like you say then how can the bank guarantee its
funds?

> The question is, when used, how does the reader of the cred stick
verify
> that its account exists at some unpredictable location? I suppose
thestick
> would have to be able to somehow "predict" where its account would end up,
> and tell the reader that, which means the institution issueing it would
> probably have the same info. Unless this was based partly on infomation
> genrated by some truey random process (say, time of use) and integrated
into
> the "random account assignment" routine each time the stick was used.

It would probably have to connect to some central location (World Bank?)
where the transaction algorithm is located. The stick could then be given a
one-time key to access the funds. Of course you then come right around full
circle by the requirement that one location hold all the keys and control
the method wherein the accounts are shuffled.

If you want to remain untraceable use certified credsticks or cash. Or get a
fake SIN or something else, credsticks are supposed to be a tool of the
Powers That Be in cyberpunk literature.

Ken
---------------------------
There's a war out there, old friend, a world war. And it's not about who's
got the most bullets, it's about who controls the information. What we see
and hear, how we work, what we think, it's all about the information!
Cosmo, 'Sneakers'
Message no. 45
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 12:56:10 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Augustus <shadowrun@*********.net>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Friday, May 26, 2000 3:07 AM
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Cashless Society



>Everybody here seems to be under the impression that the security features
>on credsticks are just whipped up on an old VIC-20 or something...
>
Oh, dear, I remember the sweet old VIC-20. Takes me back to the games "pilot
the blue blob between the red lines" and such.
The first computer my father had was a Dick Smith Wizzard, with built in
tape player...
Message no. 46
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:01:40 -0500
:Isn't that the whole reasoning behind cyberpunk staples like "face banks?"
:
:> I believe an "electronic cash" medium that was actually intended to
:> protect privacy in any effective manner would take the extra step of
:having
:> the instutions holding those accounts anonomously and radomly make a
:> periodic (and frequent) re-assigingment of the the banks which hold those
:> accounts. Obviosuly, it would be best if the radomization was done so
:that
:> each banks acounts remaind stable, or at least could be blanced by other
:> transactions. Therefore, the corp might notice some of the transactions
:> made with a stick, but due to the large number of competing institutions
:and
:> rapid "account rotations", would not know when or if other transactions
:were
:> made using that stick.
:
:That won't work becaue the banks would be losing the primary method they
:make money - investing the money deposited in the bank. In fact such
"random
:rotation" is of dubious legality and usefulness to begin with since it also
:means that legitimate legal tracing would be impeded.

Its actually a way of adding to the anominity of "face banks". The
banks still earn interest, because the amout of money they hold never
changes- its just never the same accounts money for more than a few seconds.
And DUH- of COURSE its of "dubious legality". That's the whole point of
having Carib League data havans. Extrateritorial data haven = ELECTRONIC
BANK. The whole point is that legitimat legal tracing is not only impeded,
its as close to im-freaking-possible as technology will allow. And with the
hyper-flud capital transfers allowed by the matrix, that's pretty close.

:It's not tenable IRL or Shadowrun to have such a system. Privacy is at best
:a tertiary concern for those involved ;)


IMO, if you think such a scheme (just one of many possible dodges) is to
wierd, chaotic, and legally questionable to ever be implemented, you haven't
looked into the real world of modern finance...

:> The number of competing institutions (not all of them owned by
:> meagacorps) that hold these accounts (earning interst on them for the few
:> seconds they hold them, which adds up, if you are always getting new
:> accounts in exchange for the old) would be large enough to make tracing
:the
:> transactions virtually impossible, and would even make the chance of
:> catching a single "flagged" stick making a transaction pretty low.
:
:They don't really make money on the interest, they make it by investing the
:money. If it was rotating like you say then how can the bank guarantee its
:funds?


Because when it rotates OUT, they get the same amount IN, form somebody
ELSE who is roating it OUT. The funds are garunteed- just who they are
being held for is not.
Besides, a few seconds is all it takes to make a profitable investment
in the matrix. Sure, you (generally) have to do it a few thousand times a
day, but a financial expert system can handle that, 24-7.

:> The question is, when used, how does the reader of the cred stick
:verify
:> that its account exists at some unpredictable location? I suppose
:thestick
:> would have to be able to somehow "predict" where its account would end
up,
:> and tell the reader that, which means the institution issueing it would
:> probably have the same info. Unless this was based partly on infomation
:> genrated by some truey random process (say, time of use) and integrated
:into
:> the "random account assignment" routine each time the stick was used.
:
:It would probably have to connect to some central location (World Bank?)
:where the transaction algorithm is located. The stick could then be given a
:one-time key to access the funds. Of course you then come right around full
:circle by the requirement that one location hold all the keys and control
:the method wherein the accounts are shuffled.


Right, exactly the problem I was trying to avoid. Instead, a bunch of
small banks issue that information, and hold it only for accounts the hold.
The sawp those accounts (and the information) on a regular basis, and every
time the stick is used, the method used to determine which way the account
will bounce next is changed via information that is ONLY on the stick- so
after a couple uses, even the issuing bank has no idea who is holding a
sticks account info.

:If you want to remain untraceable use certified credsticks or cash. Or get
a
:fake SIN or something else, credsticks are supposed to be a tool of the
:Powers That Be in cyberpunk literature.
:
:Ken

In case it was not clear, I was in fact talking about one possible
method used by certified credsticks. Simple credsticks (aslo known as "ID,
sir") are like a damn charge card- every telemarketer with laser guided
smart nose hair trimmers to sell can find out what you bought and when, and
pester you regardless of relevance to your consumer spending habits. Yawn,
boring, end of discusion.
A GM can, of course, just assume that Certfied Sticks are the electronic
equivalent of cash (that is, a self contained device that is hard to
duplicate or tamper with), and on the surface, this seems to be what
Shadowrun assumes. However, it is technologically a lot easier (and much
more secure) to make something that allows acess to an external account
(more or less) annonomously, and its fun to consider what method(s) might be
used to assure that that access remains as annonomous as possible.

Mongoose


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Message no. 47
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 13:37:36 -0400
Once upon a time, Jkmiland@***.com wrote;

>I think you're using the wrong syllogism. I think it ought to be structured
>this way:
>A-Hard cash is of no use to legit society.
>B-Shadowrunners are not members of legit society.
>Competion: Hard cash is only useful to shadowrunners or other non-members of
>legit society.

Many people feel this would be an invasion of privacy. The idea of
having every transaction 'monitored'. Legitimate Society would still want
hard currency. And as Governments like to tax transactions, a desire to
avoid this on simple daily personal basis is desirable to even the most
upright citizens.
But the common currency in Shadowrun is still the credstick.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 48
From: MC23 mc23@**********.com
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 13:46:05 -0400
Once upon a time, C J Tipton wrote;

>When eliminating cash goes up for a vote, I'm sure that'll be the first
>argument to hit the floor ... ;)

I don't think the change to electronic currency was something voted
on. Something would have happened to make the world's populous want to
stop using hard currency.
That reminds me that I need to get back to that project I started
working on.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 49
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Shadowrun Cashless Society
Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 12:21:17 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.com>
To: ShadowRN <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Sunday, May 28, 2000 3:38 AM
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Cashless Society



>>I think you're using the wrong syllogism. I think it ought to be
structured
>>this way:
>>A-Hard cash is of no use to legit society.
>>B-Shadowrunners are not members of legit society.
>>Competion: Hard cash is only useful to shadowrunners or other non-members
of
>>legit society.
>
> Many people feel this would be an invasion of privacy.

No privacy in the sixth world. Big Brother and all that. You are assuming
certain civil rights that are even now slowly getting phased out.

Further Reading

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Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.