Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (marco z)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Tue Feb 26 03:20:01 2002
I think that putting all Shadowrun books on CD would
be very easy: I guess the original material has to be
already in digital format (I don't think FASA has been
using old typewriters from the very beginning). If
such a CD doesn't exist is only because it would make
it too easy to copy Shadowrun material and pass it
around (e.g.: compare burning a CD with 'scanning' a
manual page by page).
This brings up a moral issue: is it correct to copy
Shadowrun material, anyway? In fact, some of the
manuals are available via Morpheus. Personally, I
don't like this kind of piracy as it's far different
from copying songs (which is kind of physiological to
the music industry): the media is different, and the
effects of one 'lost copy' is totally different for
the publisher. Playing a shadowrunner doesn't
necessarily mean being one in real life but it looks
like somebody else out there disagrees, it's a pity.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Tue Feb 26 11:20:01 2002
On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 00:24:08 -0800 (PST)
marco z <d3b0c1p8@*****.com> wrote:

> I think that putting all Shadowrun books on CD would
> be very easy: I guess the original material has to be
> already in digital format (I don't think FASA has been
> using old typewriters from the very beginning). If
> such a CD doesn't exist is only because it would make
> it too easy to copy Shadowrun material and pass it
> around (e.g.: compare burning a CD with 'scanning' a
> manual page by page).

It could be done... In fact, the whole thread started because Adam is
planning to do it sometime in the future :).

One of the main difficulties, from what I've read, is that not all of
the material is in digital form - some of the older FASA books were
laid out the old way, by pasting text and pictures to paper sheets.
Those would need to be scanned.

> This brings up a moral issue: is it correct to copy
> Shadowrun material, anyway? In fact, some of the
> manuals are available via Morpheus. Personally, I
> don't like this kind of piracy as it's far different
> from copying songs (which is kind of physiological to
> the music industry): the media is different, and the
> effects of one 'lost copy' is totally different for
> the publisher. Playing a shadowrunner doesn't
> necessarily mean being one in real life but it looks
> like somebody else out there disagrees, it's a pity.

This question originated the whole CD thread... The other list members
will tell you it's wrong to download SR books from the Internet this way,
and illegal.

When that was first brought up, many other members said they downloaded
only those rare, out of print supplements for SR1 and SR2, because it
was much easier to find them this way than to look for a physical copy.
Then Adam asked if they would stop it if Fanpro released a CD containing
all the old books in digital form, and there was an unanimous "yes". :)

--
Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (ThePolo)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Tue Feb 26 12:40:01 2002
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C1BEC3.B2EBE9F0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>I think that putting all Shadowrun books on CD would

>be very easy: I guess the original material has to be

>already in digital format

Actually, all you really need is a copy of the text. Here at my office we've
got a pdf machine (not sure what the actual name for it is...) All you do is
feed the document in, it scans it, scales it, and converts it to PDF. It
even does OCR if you want it to (and if not, Adobe Acrobat 4.0 and higher
have that built in).

I've scanned in some of the pages of some of my older, out of print (and
falling apart) DnD books at home so that I'd still be able to use them. Just
used my scanner and AdobeAcrobat Writer to import the images, and OCR
them...

For a business to do the same, the cost would be VERY cheap (scanner-$100,
AdobeAcrobat 5.0-$199 + someone's time....). Not bad at all. Wizards is
probably making a KILLING on thier pdf products, and they're only charging
like 5$ a pop.


------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C1BEC3.B2EBE9F0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html;
charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT size=2>
<P>&gt;I think that putting all Shadowrun books on CD would</P>
<P>&gt;be very easy: I guess the original material has to be</P>
<P>&gt;already in digital format</P>
<P>Actually, all you really need is a copy of the text. Here at my office we've
got a pdf machine (not sure what the actual name for it is...) All you do is
feed the document in, it scans it, scales it, and converts it to PDF. It even
does OCR if you want it to (and if not, Adobe Acrobat 4.0 and higher have that
built in). </P>
<P>I've scanned in some of the pages of some of my older, out of print (and
falling apart) DnD books at home so that I'd still be able to use them. Just
used my scanner and AdobeAcrobat Writer to import the images, and OCR them...
</P>
<P>For a business to do the same, the cost would be VERY cheap (scanner-$100,
AdobeAcrobat 5.0-$199 + someone's time....). Not bad at all. Wizards is probably
making a KILLING on thier pdf products, and they're only charging like 5$ a
pop.</P></FONT></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C1BEC3.B2EBE9F0--
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Justin Bell)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Tue Feb 26 14:00:01 2002
At 12:24 AM 2/26/2002 -0800, marco z wrote:
>I think that putting all Shadowrun books on CD would
>be very easy: I guess the original material has to be
>already in digital format (I don't think FASA has been
>using old typewriters from the very beginning). If
>such a CD doesn't exist is only because it would make
>it too easy to copy Shadowrun material and pass it
>around (e.g.: compare burning a CD with 'scanning' a
>manual page by page).

Well... sort of. If something is out of print and never going to be in
print again, putting it onto a CD is going to be an income generating
effort....

>This brings up a moral issue: is it correct to copy
>Shadowrun material, anyway? In fact, some of the
>manuals are available via Morpheus. Personally, I
>don't like this kind of piracy as it's far different
>from copying songs (which is kind of physiological to
>the music industry):

really. pirating music is the same as pirating a book...

--
Justin Bell
justin@******.net
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Shadowrun CD (and piracy)
Date: Tue Feb 26 14:50:04 2002
>When that was first brought up, many other members said they downloaded
>only those rare, out of print supplements for SR1 and SR2, because it
>was much easier to find them this way than to look for a physical copy.
>Then Adam asked if they would stop it if Fanpro released a CD containing
>all the old books in digital form, and there was an unanimous "yes". :)

Let me add my own resounding "Yes" to this thread. I bought the AD&D Core
Rules CDs despite owning the books because CDs are slightly more portable
than a stack of books. Whenever we gamed away from my house, I just needed
a laptop or desktop by my DM screen. I own all the SR books, but would
still buy even multiple CDs of SR material for the same reason. And
depending on space constraints, I'd like to see things in their original
format, with conversions for later editions. Like I said, I would buy a
multiple CD set happily. Say: one with modules, another with area
sourcebooks, and a third with gear books....drop the main and companion
books wherever they fit. I'd pick a set like this up in a heartbeat, just
for those times when the game was not at my place. Transporting SR books is
even harder on them than it was on my AD&D harcovers.

Korishinzo


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Marc Renouf)
Subject: Shadowrun CD (and piracy)
Date: Tue Feb 26 15:00:01 2002
On Tue, 26 Feb 2002, Ice Heart wrote:

> Let me add my own resounding "Yes" to this thread.

I would like to echo Kori's sentiment. Even though I own the
books, having a CD gives you some capabilities not afforded with paper
copies. Chief among these are surprise and fear, fear and...uh, wait,
that's not it. No, the ability to search is what I'm getting at. If I
can't remember where a rule is located in the books, having the ability to
do a text search that takes me straight to the relevent passages is *more*
than worth the cost of buying (or downloading) the softcopies.
I mean, if I can search through the text quickly and efficiently,
I'll be able to tell Doc he's got the rules all wrong just that much
faster. ;)

Marc Renouf (ShadowRN GridSec - "Bad Cop" Division)

Other ShadowRN-related addresses and links:
Mark Imbriaco <mark@*********.com> List Owner
Adam Jury <adamj@*********.com> Assistant List Administrator
DVixen <dvixen@*********.com> Keeper of the FAQs
Gurth <gurth@******.nl> GridSec Enforcer Division
David Buehrer <graht@******.net> GridSec "Nice Guy" Division
ShadowRN FAQ <http://hlair.dumpshock.com/faqindex.php3>;
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Tue Feb 26 18:00:01 2002
> It could be done... In fact, the whole thread started because Adam is
> planning to do it sometime in the future :).
Um no....the whole thread started because I asked if it was legal for me
to copy the tables from the back of the book and give to my players so
that they've got them instead of having to go after my books all of the
time since I'm the only one with copies of all of the books.

Derek
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Tue Feb 26 18:05:01 2002
At 11:23 26/02/2002, Bira wrote:

>It could be done... In fact, the whole thread started because Adam is
>planning to do it sometime in the future :).

Please note I'm not 'planning' on it. FanPro LLC is thinking about doing it
and I suspect I would be involved if it ever happened, but that's the
extent of it so far.

Adam
Official Shadowrun Page: www.shadowrunrpg.com | adam@************.com
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jed Mitten)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Tue Feb 26 19:55:01 2002
>This brings up a moral issue: is it correct to copy
>Shadowrun material, anyway? In fact, some of the
>manuals are available via Morpheus. Personally, I
>don't like this kind of piracy as it's far different
>from copying songs (which is kind of physiological to
>the music industry): the media is different, and the
>effects of one 'lost copy' is totally different for
>the publisher. Playing a shadowrunner doesn't
>necessarily mean being one in real life but it looks
>like somebody else out there disagrees, it's a pity.

If one person steals a book from a company the size of once-FASA and now
FanPro, then what happens when 2 million people steal a song or entire album
from the record industry? No difference between the two (philosophically,
not even if only one song is downloaded by one person).

Jed

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Tue Feb 26 21:30:01 2002
On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 16:12:10 -0700
Adam Jury <adam@************.com> wrote:

> At 11:23 26/02/2002, Bira wrote:
>
> >It could be done... In fact, the whole thread started because Adam is
> >planning to do it sometime in the future :).
>
> Please note I'm not 'planning' on it. FanPro LLC is thinking about doing it
> and I suspect I would be involved if it ever happened, but that's the
> extent of it so far.

Noted. I shall heretofore stand corrected :).

--
Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Downtym)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Tue Feb 26 23:25:02 2002
On Tue, 26 Feb 2002, Adam Jury wrote:

> At 11:23 26/02/2002, Bira wrote:

> Please note I'm not 'planning' on it. FanPro LLC is thinking about doing it
> and I suspect I would be involved if it ever happened, but that's the
> extent of it so far.

> Adam
> Official Shadowrun Page: www.shadowrunrpg.com | adam@************.com

Tell them that the player base is gathering torches, pitchforks, and
hammers. We will be beating on the doors of FanPro tomorrow if
Shadowrun CD's are not delivered to a warehouse in the Bahamas. The
location of the warehouse will be confirmed by a blind drop at the
shadowrunrpg website. Expect to see it in the form of a malformed http
request. ;-)

On the serious side, if you have any ability at all to make a "hint",
this is a big one that looks like it could work. If FanPro gave some
backing to such a project and didn't half-arse it then I'm sure the
player base would quickly respond.

I know that I, for one, would knock off a dragon or two just to get
the books in some sort of digital format. I make screens out of the
tables in the books so I can have quick references and avoid page
turning during an adventure. The price for photocopying relevant
tables, information, etc.; pasting and designing the pages; and then
laminating the pages I've made is just extreme. Not to mention that
the amount of time I've spent on my "Matrix" and "Magic" GM screens is
pretty sick. =(

A digital format would help tremendously given that a lot of my time
has been spent memorizing rules, tables, charts, page numbers, etc.
and with being a college student, I'm already taxing all of my
available resources - with respect to memory, time, and money, to the
max.

As to piracy concerns, I can see why they would exist at FanPro. Once
something is in digital format it's just easier to propogate into the
wild. But, we all have to admit to the collector spirit of gamers and
that, on the average, gamers would rather support the companies and
games that we play then steal. Besides, a lot of SR books already
exist in digital format (illegally) and are being spread (illegally).
If FanPro presents a reasonably priced (Less than $50, depending on
how much content) CD, I know I'd leap onto it like a starving lion
before I'd download it off of Morpheus or any other peer-peer system.
While you (Or FanPro execs, as it would be) might say that I'm just
one gamer and that I don't represent the average attitude, I'd be
willing to bet money that I represent not only the average, but the
majority of pencil and paper gamers out there.

Downtym |
Email: gte138j@*****.gatech.edu | Post no bills
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 00:40:01 2002
[partial snip]

>On the serious side, if you have any ability at all to make a "hint",
>this is a big one that looks like it could work. If FanPro gave some
>backing to such a project and didn't half-arse it then I'm sure the
>player base would quickly respond.

[nip and tuck]

Actually, due to lack of storage space, I would buy the aforementioned
half-"arse" project. Just as long as I could hack the disk (my verson
of hack is to look around the disk and open files without using the main
program).

EMFN John Valeu
-AKA- TimeKeeper
"Don't put off tomorrow what you can do today, because it's just a
matter of time."
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 05:05:02 2002
>From: Downtym <gte138j@*****.gatech.edu>
>I know that I, for one, would knock off a dragon or two just to get
>the books in some sort of digital format.
>
>As to piracy concerns, I can see why they would exist at FanPro.
>
>While you (Or FanPro execs, as it would be) might say that I'm just
>one gamer and that I don't represent the average attitude, I'd be
>willing to bet money that I represent not only the average, but the
>majority of pencil and paper gamers out there.

You only has to look at the responses on this thread to see the proportion
of players (and GMs) who would prefer to buy legitimately than to steal
their digital rules. The only thing I would say is make sure the
distribution is up to scratch, I know I couldn't find the AD&D core rules
anywhere (I probably could have found them in London but who wants to go
there!)

_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Shadowrun Info)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 15:00:01 2002
>Tell them that the player base is gathering torches, pitchforks, and
>hammers. We will be beating on the doors of FanPro tomorrow if
>Shadowrun CD's are not delivered to a warehouse in the Bahamas.

Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?


:: Rob Boyle ::
Shadowrun Developer for FanPro LLC
info@************.com ~ www.shadowrunrpg.com
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Zebulin Magby)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 15:10:01 2002
"Shadowrun Info" <info@************.com> wrote:
>
> Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
> a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
> b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?
>

Both, but out of print for sure. At least the Tirs(both), Lonestar, UB,
Neo-A's (both), NAN(both) and both Harlequin adventures. (Seeing as how
most, if not all of these books fetch a $30+ price on ebay and I spent
nearly $50 on the original Harlequin, I'd pay for them all on CD!

Zebulin

Those are the ones I can think right off the top of my head.


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Mark Imbriaco)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 15:30:01 2002
"Shadowrun Info" <info@************.com> wrote:
>
>Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see
>more: a) the core rulebooks on CD, or b) out of print sourcebooks
>on CD (and if so, which ones)?

Personally I'd prefer the current core books on CD. I often have a
laptop available when I play and if I could avoid lugging around some
books it'd be a huge win.

On another note, the two biggest features that I'd want regardless of
what format the documents themselves are in, would be searching and
the ability to add annotations.

-Mark
Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 15:35:01 2002
At 01:40 PM 2/27/2002 -0600, Shadowrun Info wrote:

>>Tell them that the player base is gathering torches, pitchforks, and
>>hammers. We will be beating on the doors of FanPro tomorrow if
>>Shadowrun CD's are not delivered to a warehouse in the Bahamas.
>
>Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
>a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
>b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?

Boy, that's a tough choice.

Being a long time player of Shadowrun my collection is almost
complete. The only thing that I'm missing that I want is Universal
Brotherhood. However, I really, really, want UB. I would easily pay for a
CD that had UB on it.

On the other hand I would also love to have the core rulebooks on CD to
make it easier to search for rules on the fly during game play (even if I
have a vague memory of a rule it can be hard to track down if it's in one
of the supplemental core books). Also, I would love to have a set of the
rules that is 100% up to date and easy to keep up to date (if, for example,
Wizkids regularly released errata patches for the core rules CD).

...I honestly would prefer the core rules on CD over out of print
sourcebooks, but not by much :)

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
--
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gak The Great)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 15:55:01 2002
Sometime, somwhere down the timeline, Rob Boyle whispered:
>
<snip>
> Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
> a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
> b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?
>

b). Definetly, since I can get the information I'd get from core rulebooks
the normal way too, evon though it'd be more work. OOP Sourcebooks OTOH I
probably won't be able to find that easily (and for a reasonable amount of
money. am I wrong?)
Hmm.. got H and HB, but UB would be VERY appreciated. Also other Big
Adventures From The Past (anything you list think I should definetly play
sometime?) and Great Sourcebooks From The Past (not sure what that would be,
but anything containig critters is certainly great, IMHO)

-- GAK THE GREAT

I don't suffer from insanity,
I enjoy every moment of it!
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 17:50:04 2002
On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:40:28 -0600
Shadowrun Info <info@************.com> wrote:

> Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
> a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
> b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?

I`d be much more interested in seeing the out of print books on CD than
the current core rulebooks, most or all of which I have in printed form.

--
Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.f2s.com
Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 17:50:08 2002
> Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see
more:
> a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
> b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?

My personal vote goes for both. However if you had to make the decision
I would say that putting them on separate discs would be more than
acceptable as well. I personally would like to see something like the
Forgotten Realms Atlas program that was put out for AD&D because I don't
have any of the books on the different parts of the world and if I could
pull up a map and click a city that's labeled on there and get all of
the info on it and perhaps even a few different maps of the city so that
we're not just pulling things from our collective arses or using the
current city maps (especially difficult for Seattle as unless I'm
mistaken Seattle and Tacoma are one city in the game and aren't now)
Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 18:15:00 2002
In a message dated Tue, 26 Feb 2002 3:27:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, marco z
<d3b0c1p8@*****.com> writes:

> Personally, I
> don't like this kind of piracy as it's far different
> from copying songs (which is kind of physiological to
> the music industry): the media is different, and the
> effects of one 'lost copy' is totally different for
> the publisher. Playing a shadowrunner doesn't
> necessarily mean being one in real life but it looks
> like somebody else out there disagrees, it's a pity.


Well If you are looking at piracy it is what it is. It does not mater if it is a book,
poem, song, source code, etc. Theft is Theft so dont try to make one sound less then the
other. There is NO diference.

Thank you,
Jeff
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Beilby)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 19:35:01 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shadowrun Info" <info@************.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: Shadowrun CD and piracy


>
> >Tell them that the player base is gathering torches, pitchforks, and
> >hammers. We will be beating on the doors of FanPro tomorrow if
> >Shadowrun CD's are not delivered to a warehouse in the Bahamas.
>
> Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
> a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
> b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?

Personally, I'd say both. But if I had to choose, I'd say B, with probably
everything on it, although sourcebooks with multiple editions should only
appear once (AFAIK, only the Street Sam Catalog.) The exception, in my
opinion, would be to leave off things which have been completely superceded
by rule changes (such as the old Rigger books, Matrix books, and the
Grimoires/Awakenings)

One thing that would be needed would be some sort of search interface,
preferably with the ability to bookmark pages.
Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Downtym)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 20:15:01 2002
On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, Shadowrun Info wrote:

> Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
> a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
> b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?

That's like picking chocolate chip cookies or milk. Just cruel. ;-)

>From a player/GM standpoint, I would obviously want option b. While I
have a rather large collection of SR material, I've always wanted to
get my dirty mits on a copy of the 'Neo-A's Guide to North America',
'Universal Brotherhood', and some of the out of print adventure books
('Trapped in Paradise' being one of the big ones on my list. ;-) ).

However, from a standpoint of what might be healthier for ShadowRun,
with respect to business, and what would encourage FanPro to make more
CD's, go with option a. While I know that everyone out there would
love to get their hands on the out of print stuff right now (I know I
would), I'd be hesitant to suggest that it be the first cd. My major
fear would be that sales would not meet FanPro's expectations and they
would nix any future cd's. I think a cd with the core rules
would generate better sales and present a better view of the market
for future cd's.

I honestly don't know. The choice I would make would be the one that I
would have good confidence in with respect to sales. This is because I
know that sales drive future initiatives and if a first attempt at
digitizing SR material is a success, then I'm sure there will be
followups (Or at least I would hope there would be. ;-) ). So, I'm
going to cast my vote with the masses and just say that if either were
to arrive on the shelf of my local store; I would purchase it.

If you go the out-of-print route, I would like to see the 'Neo-A's
Guide...', 'Universal Brotherhood', 'The Native American Nations',
'Lone Star', 'Tir na n0g', 'Tir Tairngire', 'Corporate Security
Handbook', and, if you can find the space, 'Prime Runners' and
'Sprawl Maps'. These are sourcebooks that either I do not possess or I
have found to be very useful in my time gm'ing and playing. 'Sprawl
Maps' I have found invaluable for those days when my players go off on
jaunts into the nether regions of nowhere and particularly enjoy that
I don't have to think about what the building looks like or invent it
from the ground up in a splitsecond.

Downtym |
Email: gte138j@*****.gatech.edu | Post no bills
Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Zebulin Magby)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 20:20:01 2002
"Chris Beilby" <cbeilby@******.net> wrote:
>
> Personally, I'd say both. But if I had to choose, I'd say B, with
probably
> everything on it, although sourcebooks with multiple editions should only
> appear once (AFAIK, only the Street Sam Catalog.) The exception, in my
> opinion, would be to leave off things which have been completely
superceded
> by rule changes (such as the old Rigger books, Matrix books, and the
> Grimoires/Awakenings)
>

Only insofar as the art isn't left out of the books that don't make the cut.
I don't know about anyone else, but I like to be able to point to the RBBv1
and show a person what the Americar looks like, for example.

Zebulin


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Beilby)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 20:35:01 2002
> Only insofar as the art isn't left out of the books that don't make the
cut.
> I don't know about anyone else, but I like to be able to point to the
RBBv1
> and show a person what the Americar looks like, for example.

Actually, that's a very good point. Also, things like the short fiction
pieces would be good (especially things like the novella from Matrix 1st
Edition. One of the best pieces of Shadowrun writing, IMHO)
Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Justin Bell)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 20:35:05 2002
At 01:40 PM 2/27/2002 -0600, Shadowrun Info wrote:

>>Tell them that the player base is gathering torches, pitchforks, and
>>hammers. We will be beating on the doors of FanPro tomorrow if
>>Shadowrun CD's are not delivered to a warehouse in the Bahamas.
>
>Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
>a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
>b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?

All source books and adventures pre 3rd ed
--
Justin Bell
justin@******.net
Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Justin Bell)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 20:45:01 2002
At 08:39 PM 2/27/2002 -0500, Chris Beilby wrote:

> > Only insofar as the art isn't left out of the books that don't make the
>cut.
> > I don't know about anyone else, but I like to be able to point to the
>RBBv1
> > and show a person what the Americar looks like, for example.
>
>Actually, that's a very good point. Also, things like the short fiction
>pieces would be good (especially things like the novella from Matrix 1st
>Edition. One of the best pieces of Shadowrun writing, IMHO)

all the shadowtalk is neat too. Wonder what 'whats his face' thinks about
the latest laser pistols, for example
--
Justin Bell
justin@******.net
Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 21:00:03 2002
> by rule changes (such as the old Rigger books,
AAAAACK no!!! the old rigger books are great for nothing else other than
pics of what the different drones look like!
Message no. 29
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George S Waksman)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 21:05:01 2002
>> Personally, I
>> don't like this kind of piracy as it's far different
>> from copying songs (which is kind of physiological to
>> the music industry): the media is different, and the
>> effects of one 'lost copy' is totally different for
>> the publisher. Playing a shadowrunner doesn't
>> necessarily mean being one in real life but it looks
>> like somebody else out there disagrees, it's a pity.
>
>
>Well If you are looking at piracy it is what it is. It does not mater if it is
> a book, poem, song, source code, etc. Theft is Theft so dont try to make one
> sound less then the other. There is NO diference.
>

I agree, there is no difference between the two, even if the loss in profit is smaller for
the music industry and even if music is a different media. Copying of any form of
information that is not public domain or licensed for free distribution is illegal,
regardless. A copyright is a copyright. A very different point is differences based on
manufacturer, for instance, I wouldn't download Shadowrun books unless there was no other
way to get them, I like SR and I'm willing to spend money for it, on the other hand, there
do exist some things I don't feel as pragmatic about.

-George Waksman
Message no. 30
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George S Waksman)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 21:30:00 2002
>> Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
>> a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
>> b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?
>
>Personally, I'd say both. But if I had to choose, I'd say B, with probably
>everything on it, although sourcebooks with multiple editions should only
>appear once (AFAIK, only the Street Sam Catalog.) The exception, in my
>opinion, would be to leave off things which have been completely superceded
>by rule changes (such as the old Rigger books, Matrix books, and the
>Grimoires/Awakenings)

I have to say that I want all of the old books and there should be no SR3 books on such a
CD-ROM.

Firstly, the only desire I have for out of date stuff is to get all the storyline, place
descriptions, and detailed stuff descriptions which have gone from what is available. A
good example of this is to compare Fields of Fire to Cannon Companion, I started out
hardcore SR2 but since recently have been playing only SR3 and I took two things from FoF
that I would never have done if I had started with CC, the Colt Cobra is and will be
forever my preferred weapon and I have a very distinct image of a mercenary from the first
half of FoF (it's such a good section I forced a new player to read it recently when he
decided to play a mercenary). Without access to these old books (I want the SR1 books too,
RBB is supposed to have cool vehicle stuff) new players will miss a great deal of vital.

And secondly, the SR3 books should not go on such a CD-ROM because it defeats the purpose
of the books themselves. Such a CD is not meant to displace Shadowrun books in total but
rather to serve as a reference supplying background and other information no longer
available to the public. FanPro would be doing the service of increasing access to
something they can no longer profit off of. This and if the CD was labelled as a
collection of all SR1 and SR2 books it would always be complete, but if it included any
SR3 books it would become obsolete almost immediately.

If FanPro released a CD with all of the out of print material on it they would be able to
profit from it's existence and if it sold for less than $20 a pop they would likely be
able to greatly offset production costs even if the piracy rate was high enough that there
was an illegal copy for every real one. What might be even better would be to bundle the
CD with copies of SR3 either at normal cost or as a special version for $10 more. This
would increase product sales and serve as good PR. I'm not marketing nor am I looking for
money on my own so if someone at FanPro likes these ideas I claim absolutely no ownership
to them and have no qualms with others profitting from them.

-George Waksman
Message no. 31
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George S Waksman)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 21:30:09 2002
>However, from a standpoint of what might be healthier for ShadowRun,
>with respect to business, and what would encourage FanPro to make more
>CD's, go with option a. While I know that everyone out there would
>love to get their hands on the out of print stuff right now (I know I
>would), I'd be hesitant to suggest that it be the first cd. My major
>fear would be that sales would not meet FanPro's expectations and they
>would nix any future cd's. I think a cd with the core rules
>would generate better sales and present a better view of the market
>for future cd's.

This is a very bad idea for FanPro because it would detract from current book sales.

>If you go the out-of-print route, I would like to see the 'Neo-A's
>Guide...', 'Universal Brotherhood', 'The Native American Nations',
>'Lone Star', 'Tir na n0g', 'Tir Tairngire', 'Corporate Security
>Handbook', and, if you can find the space, 'Prime Runners' and
>'Sprawl Maps'. These are sourcebooks that either I do not possess or I
>have found to be very useful in my time gm'ing and playing. 'Sprawl
>Maps' I have found invaluable for those days when my players go off on
>jaunts into the nether regions of nowhere and particularly enjoy that
>I don't have to think about what the building looks like or invent it
>from the ground up in a splitsecond.

If they did anything they'd be best to include everything that's out of print or they're
just defeating the purpose of such a compilation CD in the first place.

-George Waksman
Message no. 32
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Mark M. Smith)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 22:35:01 2002
At 2/27/02 02:38 PM, you wrote:
Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
>>a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
>>b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?

I'd much rather have the sourcebooks actually. Mainly b/c the core rules
are still in-print and easy to get otherwise. Aside from this I don't have
a laptop myself and probably won't be gaming near the computer to look
things up. Besides, I find it a lot easier to sort-of know where to look in
a book than have to run searches and dig around on the computer to find
exactly what I need. Easier sometimes yes, but when it's more of a hassle
it's a big hassle.


--
Mark M. Smith
belgand@**************.com

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GS/CS/AT d- s-: a-- C++++ UL++>++++ US P+>++ L++>+++ E@ W++(+++) N+++@ o+
K++ w---() O- M-- !V PS+@ PE++(+++)@ Y+@ PGP- t+ 5 X++@ R++ tv++ b+++
DI++++ D+++ G++ e>++++$ h(!) r++ y+**
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 33
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 22:35:04 2002
At 19:35 27/02/2002, George S Waksman wrote:

>If they did anything they'd be best to include everything that's out of
>print or they're just defeating the purpose of such a compilation CD in the
>first place.

Strange - I have Madonna Greatest Hits Volume 1 *and* Volume 2 in my CD
collection!

While I think releasing 2 or 3 rulebooks on a CD-ROM would probably be a
mistake, I also think that releasing 75+ of them in a single CD-ROM would
be a mistake.

At 19:32 27/02/2002, George S Waksman wrote:

>And secondly, the SR3 books should not go on such a CD-ROM because it
>defeats the purpose of the books themselves. Such a CD is not meant to
>displace Shadowrun books in total but rather to serve as a reference
>supplying background and other information no longer available to the
>public.

The purpose of "such a CD" has not yet decided; that's what Rob is asking
about. I don't see a CD containing the current rule set 'displacing' the
printed books, but acting in a complimentary manner -- giving GMs who have
a laptop at the table a quick reference, and giving writers a fast way of
searching the entire current ruleset quickly, etc.

I use my printed copy of Man and Machine when I'm sitting on the floor. I
use my playtest drafts when I'm sitting at the computer.

> FanPro would be doing the service of increasing access to something
>they can no longer profit off of.

FanPro isn't a service business. They're a publisher. If they can't make a
reasonable amount of money doing something, it's not in their best
interests to do so. No matter how much I would like it, no matter how much
you would like it.

> This and if the CD was labelled as a
>collection of all SR1 and SR2 books it would always be complete, but if it
>included any SR3 books it would become obsolete almost immediately.

Rob's post did say "core rulebooks", of which all are now available and
have been for over a year.

>If FanPro released a CD with all of the out of print material on it they
>would be able to profit from it's existence and if it sold for less than $20
>a pop they would likely be able to greatly offset production costs even if
>the piracy rate was high enough that there was an illegal copy for every
>real one.

I don't have projected sales or production figures for this CD, but 75+
books for $20 sounds like a little too sweet of a bargain. Bear in mind
that the Dragon Magazine CD-ROM was $45+ at introduction and was produced
in far greater number than any theoretical Shadowrun CD-ROM would be, thus
driving down per-unit costs. There's more to think of than CD production
costs; the labour in getting the books into the format is not a negligible
expense.

Adam
--
| Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental: http://tss.dumpshock.com |
| adamj@*********.com | http://www.talkinabout.com | UIN: 2350330 |
Message no. 34
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Justin Bell)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 23:15:01 2002
At 08:41 PM 2/27/2002 -0500, Justin Bell wrote:
>At 01:40 PM 2/27/2002 -0600, Shadowrun Info wrote:
>
>>
>>Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
>>a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
>>b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?
>
>All source books and adventures pre 3rd ed

Barring that, all Adventures that have added game rules/info in them, such
as Killing Glare with Urban Combat stuff, Harlequin & HB, etc.
And all source books....
--
Justin Bell
justin@******.net
Message no. 35
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Zebulin Magby)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Wed Feb 27 23:35:01 2002
"Adam Jury" <adamj@*********.com> wrote:
>
> While I think releasing 2 or 3 rulebooks on a CD-ROM would probably be a
> mistake, I also think that releasing 75+ of them in a single CD-ROM would
> be a mistake.
>
<<SNIPT>>
>
> I don't have projected sales or production figures for this CD, but 75+
> books for $20 sounds like a little too sweet of a bargain. Bear in mind
> that the Dragon Magazine CD-ROM was $45+ at introduction and was produced
> in far greater number than any theoretical Shadowrun CD-ROM would be, thus
> driving down per-unit costs. There's more to think of than CD production
> costs; the labour in getting the books into the format is not a negligible
> expense.
>

I, for one, would be willing to pay more if there were more (or all) of the
books on a single CD-ROM. If you could do something like the Dragon Magazine
CD-ROM (which I have, but a friend gave it to me free), I would probably be
willing to fork out as much as $60-$70 for it, provided it was well laid out
and thought through.

On the other hand, releasing a couple of books on each CD-ROM and charging
$20 a pop for, say, 5 books, I could see happening too. Only problem with
that is that I'm sure the CDs wouldn't be full with that few books on each
one, and I'm somewhat of a stickler for filling CDs. (I know, it's my twitch
thing, bear with me. [: )

I think, while it isn't my decision, I would rather you go with something
like the first option. Don't include any of the SR3 books with it, put those
on a separate disc (or even separate them out into one disc per edition) if
you must. Or go somewhere in the middle. Yes, we did fork out between
$12-$30 per book, but since this is on CD and doesn't give us the
satisfaction of turning good old paper pages, I think $50-$75 is a good
deal. Course, as you said, FanPro is a business and so they would have to be
able to make money on it.

I can speak for myself and my friends and can tell you that if it was
released tomorrow, you'd have at least four sales from my group. (And most
of us don't have the money to eat! Shows you where our priorities lie, eh?)

My .02¥

Zebulin


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 36
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Iridios)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Thu Feb 28 01:05:02 2002
Shadowrun Info wrote:

> Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
> a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
> b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?

Sending this straight in as well as to the list.

I would rather see both. Barring that I would go with the out of print
sourcebook material first. Perhaps the main sourcebooks in pdf format
and sorted by edition (i.e. a directory for 1st edition, another for
2nd). Maybe, if it doesn't take too much work, an indexed resource such
as a master spell list, master equipment list, master critter guide, and
etc. These resources would combine information from the core rules and
the individual sourcebooks. Indexing would be a bonus and could be
dropped if it would drop the cost of the CD.
A CD with a good wealth of information could sell for 35 to 50 dollars,
IMO.

If this venture works out you could then put out a Master Core Rules CD
with the main rulebooks, more and advanced examples to supplement the
ones in the books, a FAQ explaining more of the intent of the rules,
Specialized Character Sheets, NPC Sheets, and/or GM Resource sheets in
PDF format (to be printed out), and possibly a working Character
generator program if it wouldn't add too much to the cost.

Future CDs could be expansions to released books. For example, (this is
hypothetical) Target: Middle East could be produced as all the other
Target books. Material cut from the production book could be included
on a CD available for 5 to 15 dollars, of course for 15 dollars I would
expect more resources such as more detailed maps, more individual
locations (shops and such), more individual contacts, and other fluff
that wouldn't make it to a book. The material on the CD could be
written in such a way as to be disjointed without the book, thus
spurring purchase of the related book.


Of course all of the above CDs would have their value improved by
including as much original artwork as possible.


--
Iridios
--
From:The Top 100 Things I'd Do
If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord
(http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html)

If an advisor says to me "My liege, he is but one man. What can
one man possibly do?", I will reply "This." and kill the advisor.

Used Without Permission
Message no. 37
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George S Waksman)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Thu Feb 28 01:05:05 2002
>I, for one, would be willing to pay more if there were more (or all) of the
>books on a single CD-ROM. If you could do something like the Dragon Magazine
>CD-ROM (which I have, but a friend gave it to me free), I would probably be
>willing to fork out as much as $60-$70 for it, provided it was well laid out
>and thought through.

I'd be willing to pay more save for the fact that I'm a poor college student. I'm having a
hard enough time mustering spare cred to get my hands on Threats 2 and that's only $20. If
sucha CD-ROM was released for $50+ I'd have to wait a while before being able to justify
the purchase to myself and even then maybe not. I've been suggesting figures in the
$20-$30 range because that's low enough that I can assure myself the cost to benefit ratio
is good enough to get it within a month or two.

-George Waksman
Message no. 38
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Pepe Barbe)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Thu Feb 28 01:30:01 2002
At 02:40 p.m. 27/02/2002, Shadowrun Info wrote:
>Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
>a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
>b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?

Tough question! :)

I think that first should should be released a compilation of all the OOP
sourcebooks and adventures. To be of value I think that all the books in
electronic format should be laid exactly as the book (As the WotC release
of AD&D material), that is why PDF is the format of choice.

Having the core rulebooks in electronic format surely is very tempting, as
it is a burden for a GM and the players to check all those tables and rule
variants available specially in the advanced rules. Yet, as George Waksman
pointed before, it goes against FanPro/Wizkids business to publish
electronically products that are current, unless a change of market is
going to be made. What I think should be very a valuable product is some
kind of über-screen that it has been laid out specifically to improve
access to all the tables, and even rules for all the main rulebooks. Maybe
some kind of GM screen should be made for each of the rulebooks. There are
some areas SR creates a big overhead of GMs, as the rules for instance;
maybe a product that tries to fix that overhead through the use of the
computers should be made.

Pepe
Message no. 39
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Thu Feb 28 04:35:01 2002
>From: Shadowrun Info <info@************.com>
>Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
>a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
>b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?

Core rules for me, but I'd also like to see OOP senarios, Gurth certainly
thinks the first three modules were the best laid out (DNA/DOA, Mercurial
and the other one which I can't remember) and for those of us that write our
own 'runs almost exclusively it would be nice to see what has gone before,
to see where we're going wrong if nothing else.

_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Message no. 40
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Thu Feb 28 05:30:01 2002
>If FanPro released a CD with all of the out of print material on it >they
>would be able to profit from it's existence and if it sold for >less than
>$20 a pop they would likely be able to greatly...

Now I know UK Prices tend to be inflated compared to the States but you
can't really expect to buy ALL of the SR1 _AND_ SR2 Material for $20
surely!?!?!?
A good chunk of it is still available over here at least so why would FanPro
sell you EVERYTHING for the price of a few modules, especially as EVERYTHING
is going to take up several CD ROMs.



_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Message no. 41
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Thu Feb 28 05:35:04 2002
According to Graht, on Wed, 27 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> Being a long time player of Shadowrun my collection is almost
> complete. The only thing that I'm missing that I want is Universal
> Brotherhood. However, I really, really, want UB.

If it's the adventure itself you want, and read German, then you buy the
FanPro version, like one of my former players did. If it's the actual,
original books you're after, though, I suppose you'll have to keep
looking... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dat is de kip voor het ei spannen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 42
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Thu Feb 28 05:35:12 2002
According to Downtym, on Thu, 28 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> ('Trapped in Paradise' being one of the big ones on my list. ;-) ).

Strange... aside from the very latest releases (like T:AL) I own all SR
sourcebooks published, and that one isn't among them :) Maybe you mean
Paradise Lost?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dat is de kip voor het ei spannen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 43
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Thu Feb 28 05:35:21 2002
According to George S Waksman, on Thu, 28 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> Copying of any form of information that is not public domain or
> licensed for free distribution is illegal, regardless. A copyright is a
> copyright.

And copyright has very little to do with whether or not something can be copied
legally. Owning the copyright to something lets you decide _whether_ you want
to let it be distributed freely, or to charge money for it. Free distribution
!= no copyright.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dat is de kip voor het ei spannen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 44
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Thu Feb 28 05:35:35 2002
According to Shadowrun Info, on Wed, 27 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
> a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
> b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?

How about a combination of the two? For me, it doesn't really matter as I
already own both the old and new books, and don't game near a computer, so if
I had to choose I'd go for a CD that had both a few core rulebooks on it as
well as some older sourcebooks and/or adventures. Just as a for example
(assuming you put five books on a CD) let's say the SR3 main rules, New
Seattle, Lone Star, Paranormal Animals of North America, and Elven Fire. Or
some similar combination of old and new, still-useful books (I don't think
anyone really _needs_ a CD with the first-edition Grimoire, Shadowtech, and
Prime Runners on it :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dat is de kip voor het ei spannen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 45
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Urs Reupke)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Thu Feb 28 05:50:04 2002
> Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
> a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
> b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?

I happily vote b), as a CD containing in-print books is outdated far too
often, not
to mention I own most of the books recently released and was looking forward
to
getting my hands on the old ones for a long time.

-Urs
Message no. 46
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Martin Little)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Thu Feb 28 11:20:01 2002
> According to Shadowrun Info, on Wed, 27 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...
>
> > Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
> > a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
> > b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?
>

I'd be willing to pay extra for a complete adventure cd that had the
adventures updated to SR3 rules. Just to save me the trouble of doing
so :)
Message no. 47
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Stuart M. Willis)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Thu Feb 28 11:55:00 2002
Rob Doth Quoth:

> >Tell them that the player base is gathering torches, pitchforks, and
> >hammers. We will be beating on the doors of FanPro tomorrow if
>>Shadowrun CD's are not delivered to a warehouse in the Bahamas.
>
>Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
>a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
>b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?

I think that the inevitable piracy would make (a) a bad idea. Yes,
printed versions are much better - but, in my experience, I know that
some newbie players would rather pirate the PDFs than buy the book
(just cause they ONLY wanna read their section). Yes, it may lead to
some purchases...

but how about including the Basic Rules Book instead (from what i
gather, it was/is a bit of a flop??) AND a core rules table
compilation? You know... every important table from every core rule
book :) And, mb, a quick summary of the advance rules... kind of like
the GM screen but more detailed. I'd pay for that. I don't like
reading PDFs as a rule - and I don't game with a laptop. But I would
print out say 20 pages of summaries - and I'd pay for it too :)

As for B... 'All Pre 3e' is good for me :) Even include the 1st Ed
and 2nd Ed rulebooks - why? Cause *that* may encourage people to
purchase the BBB more than having a scan of 3rd Ed :)

Realistically, I think converting it all may be a tad expensive and
more than 1 CD worth. Perhaps split it into a few volumes? Perhaps
location books + adventures, sourcebooks (general) + pre 3e core
rules... So 2 volumes at $20US each? Or even 4 CDs at $15 each.

IMNSHO, the people who probably will buy this stuff are the
collectors and the completistis rather than new GMs who want a cheap
source of material :) They will be willing to pay a decent price for
a good complete set.

If you don't wanna do 2e/1e rules (for fear of confusion) then AT
LEAST the 'shadowtalk' sections from Field of Fire, Awakenings,
Corporate Security Handbook, etc. That stuff was *great* in terms of
teaching players (and the gm) to 'get' the gameworld. You pick up the
Cannon Companion and you really have no idea how a mercenary is
really meant to be. MiTS is better than CC in this regard, but
Awakenings really set the psychology of being a magic user.

However, if we can't have it all... then I think all the 'important'
sourcebooks/location books in terms of the overall metaplot and a few
bits and pieces should be included... So Universal Brotherhood, Bug
City, the pre-Target location books, Lone Star, the Corporate
Security Handbook, Harlequin and Harlequin's back, oh and Shadowbeat
:) I'm sure there are a few key adventures too, Queen Euphoria comes
to mind.


s.
--
---
In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror,
murder, and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da
Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love -
they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce?
The Cuckoo Clock.
-- Harry Lime, the Third Man

dangermedia assassin: http://www.dangermedia.org
associate director, dump huck industries: http://www.dumphuck.com
jinn: http://www.vistacartel.com/jinn/

www.biki.net

ICQ: 4340513
---
Message no. 48
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Thu Feb 28 13:20:05 2002
From: "Shadowrun Info" <info@************.com>

> Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
> a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
> b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?

I would personally like to see the SR3 hardcover on CD, as it is currently
the only book I don't have... :-)

Lars
Message no. 49
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Thu Feb 28 16:50:01 2002
In article <5.1.0.14.2.20020227133736.037531c0@****.fanpro.com>,
Shadowrun Info <info@************.com> writes
>Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
>a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
>b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?

Out of print books. The core books are bread-and-butter business, but
old sourcebooks are damn hard to find once the print run stops. I never
did get a copy of Lone Star, for instance.

"Which ones"? Basically, if it's not available now and FanPro aren't
going to put it back in print, then put it on CD or otherwise make it
available (provided FanPro see a return). If they *are* going to reprint
it, then buy the book instead... e-publishing isn't mature enough to run
with yet.


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 50
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Will)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Thu Feb 28 16:55:01 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stuart M. Willis" <biki@****.net>



> IMNSHO, the people who probably will buy this stuff are the
> collectors and the completistis rather than new GMs who want a cheap
> source of material :) They will be willing to pay a decent price for
> a good complete set.
>

In fact, new (and some old) GMs who want a cheap source of material will
just pirate it with Kazaa or Morpheus...
Sad, but true.

Will
Message no. 51
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Thu Feb 28 17:25:01 2002
On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:40:28 -0600 Shadowrun Info <info@************.com>
writes:
> Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see
> more:
> a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
> b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?

b)

My collection is fairly complete. However, old flavor books (like Lone
Star and NeoAnarchist's Guide to Real Life) place books that aren't
likely to be revisted in depth would be top of my list. Everything else
that can fit would nice too ;)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
Message no. 52
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Thu Feb 28 18:00:01 2002
On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 20:39:19 -0500
"Chris Beilby" <cbeilby@******.net> wrote:

>
> > Only insofar as the art isn't left out of the books that don't make the
> cut.
> > I don't know about anyone else, but I like to be able to point to the
> RBBv1
> > and show a person what the Americar looks like, for example.
>
> Actually, that's a very good point. Also, things like the short fiction
> pieces would be good (especially things like the novella from Matrix 1st
> Edition. One of the best pieces of Shadowrun writing, IMHO)
>

I'm partial to just putting everything in the CD, and not "cutting up"
the books to just put one or another piece of them. Besides being much
harder to do, the product would loose a lot of it's "historical" value.

Also, if they cut everything that's been superceded by rules changes,
they might as well not make the CD at all. Pratically all the old books
have been superceded, especially the ones from 1st. Ed.

I'm more interested in the "classic" adventures (Harlequin, UB, and
others) than in rulebooks, but I wouldn't mind having them in the CD if
it will please other fans :). But, whatever their nature, the contents
should be as close to the original printed material as possible. That's
one of the reasons I vote for PDF as the better file format for the "SR
Anthology".

--
Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.f2s.com
Message no. 53
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Justin Bell)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Thu Feb 28 18:35:00 2002
At 08:07 PM 2/28/2002 -0300, Bira wrote:
>Also, if they cut everything that's been superceded by rules changes,
>they might as well not make the CD at all. Pratically all the old books
>have been superceded, especially the ones from 1st. Ed.

I haven't seen the critters book with the GM screen, does that have updated
critters for everything from PAONM and PAoE?
--
Justin Bell
justin@******.net
Message no. 54
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Thu Feb 28 22:45:01 2002
In a message dated Wed, 27 Feb 2002 9:12:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, George S Waksman
<waksman@***.EDU> writes:

> >> Personally, I
> >> don't like this kind of piracy as it's far different
> >> from copying songs (which is kind of physiological to
> >> the music industry): the media is different, and the
> >> effects of one 'lost copy' is totally different for
> >> the publisher. Playing a shadowrunner doesn't
> >> necessarily mean being one in real life but it looks
> >> like somebody else out there disagrees, it's a pity.
> >
> >
> >Well If you are looking at piracy it is what it is. It does not mater if it is
> > a book, poem, song, source code, etc. Theft is Theft so dont try to make one
> > sound less then the other. There is NO diference.
> >
>
> I agree, there is no difference between the two, even if the loss in profit is
smaller for the music industry and even if music is a different media. Copying of any form
of information that is not public domain or licensed for free distribution is illegal,
regardless. A copyright is a copyright. A very different point is differences based on
manufacturer, for instance, I wouldn't download Shadowrun books unless there was no other
way to get them, I like SR and I'm willing to spend money for it, on the other hand, there
do exist some things I don't feel as pragmatic about.
>
> -George Waksman
I apologize. I misunderstood tour staement. I thought that you were saying that piracy
from printed media was wrong, but piracy from audio media was ok.

-Jeff
Message no. 55
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Fri Mar 1 01:55:01 2002
Shadowrun Info writes:

> Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
> a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
> b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?

I think that making old material available would be the best. Most
particularly the material that is no longer in print, no longer in stock,
difficult to find in stores, and never going to be reprinted.

I could see a CD of old modules being valuable, a CD of old place books, and
a CD of old 'world' books (like the Paranormal Animals books, for instance).
Or more CDs, depending on how the breakdown might work, how many fit, and
how long it takes to get them onto CD. It's probably not a good idea to put
too many books on one CD, as it might be 'giving' away too much at once.
Likewise, if it's going to take a number of months to get each book onto CD,
then a CD should probably be released every 6-12 months, rather than waiting
4 years for the master compilation to be finally completed ;-).

I've seen many many great ideas crop up on the list, in particular:

* updating the old modules to SR3 before putting them onto CD
* including a copy of the SR3 Quickstart Rules on each CD

The only reason I could see having the core rulebooks on CD would be useful
would be if they had a corresponding searchable index and other useful 'look
up' tools with them. Otherwise, it sounds to me that such a CD would damage
current book sales, and even if it were made, would be somewhat redudant if
we had the printed books already.

The one way I would think that having current books on CD would be useful is
if, as was suggested, the current books were made into 'expanded' versions
(of CC, MitS, Rigger 3, and M&M) that included all the in game text,
shadowtalk, and item images from the original books. Although I still think
that this would detract from sales, notwithstanding that it is a great idea.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GE d- s++:-- a25 C++ US++>+++ P+ L+>++ E- W+ N++ o@ K- w+(--) O-@ M--
V- PS+ PE- Y+ PGP-@>++ t+ 5 X+>+++ R++ !tv(--) b+ DI+++@ D G+
e++>++++$ h- r++>+++ y->+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 56
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Downtym)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Fri Mar 1 05:05:18 2002
On Thu, 28 Feb 2002, Gurth wrote:

> Strange... aside from the very latest releases (like T:AL) I own all SR
> sourcebooks published, and that one isn't among them :) Maybe you mean
> Paradise Lost?

Bah. All I remember is Hawaii + Shadowrunners. =) I knew it would be
something silly like Trapped in Paradise or Paradise Lost or Paradise
on the Rocks or...I could go on. hehe

Downtym |
Email: gte138j@*****.gatech.edu | Post no bills
Message no. 57
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Fri Mar 1 05:20:01 2002
According to Lars Wagner Hansen, on Thu, 28 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> I would personally like to see the SR3 hardcover on CD, as it is
> currently the only book I don't have... :-)

I'm sure someone could scan in the additional page for you... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dat is de kip voor het ei spannen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 58
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Fri Mar 1 05:20:05 2002
According to Justin Bell, on Fri, 01 Mar 2002 the word on the street was...

> I haven't seen the critters book with the GM screen, does that have
> updated critters for everything from PAONM and PAoE?

Almost; some critters were left out for a number of reasons (being "lame"
for example) but pretty much everything is there, including critters from
other books like California Free State.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dat is de kip voor het ei spannen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 59
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Opher Lubzens)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Fri Mar 1 15:00:00 2002
>At 02:40 p.m. 27/02/2002, Shadowrun Info wrote:
> >Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
> >a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
> >b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?

I would rather take option b, with high priority for PoaD, the Corporate
Security Handbook , the pre-Target location books and important
adventures(both of the Harlequin adventures for example)

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Message no. 60
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: Shadowrun CD and piracy
Date: Sat Mar 2 07:45:00 2002
On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, Shadowrun Info wrote:

> Ok, that leads us to the next question. Which would you rather see more:
> a) the core rulebooks on CD, or
> b) out of print sourcebooks on CD (and if so, which ones)?
>

Well, many people have expressed fine opinions about what and where, but
I'm just going to put my tuppence in, and in, in best Rabid FanBoy(tm)
mode, say that whatever you bring out I will buy. both, combinations, a
sourcebook per CD, whatever. yes.

So I'm in the "easy to please" section..:-)

oh, but its got to be readable by something as well as Windows - PDF is
perfect....

--
john@*****.net http://www.kript.net/shadowrun
Quick! How does one Unsummon a Demon Lord!?!
SRGC SR1+ SR3++ !SR2 h b++ B--- UB IE+ RN+ !W ma+++ gm M-- P-

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Shadowrun CD and piracy, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!