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Message no. 1
From: Michael Orion Jackson <orion@****.CC.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 17:39:18 -0600
Great. Another 120page book for SR that costs 18 bucks.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Michael Orion Jackson~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~TAMS Class of 1996/UT Class of 199?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~2112 Guadalupe, Rm. 502; Austin, Tx 78705 (The Goodall-Wooten)~~~~~~~
"Goddamn creatures of the night, they never learn." ~Gideon, _The Crow_
"Happiness is but a temporary chemical imbalance of the true baseline state
of our minds."~Lusiphur, quote ill-rembered and butchered by M. O. Jackson
Message no. 2
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 19:49:19 -0500
On Sat, 9 Nov 1996, Michael Orion Jackson wrote:

> Great. Another 120page book for SR that costs 18 bucks.


I thought Shadowrun Companion was the CD-rom based mega-resource?

Mike, you still lurking?



Word was that FASA was planning on putting its SR books and even an
aide (like a GM's Tool) for faster playing, both Matrix and the rest of
it. I'd easily pay a hundred for something like that, if I were able to
trade CDs for a cheap (or free) upgrade.

But, I run Linux and XWindows. If it's X-capable, then I could have the
CDrom in my local drive, and someone else on the Internet would be able
to pop the interface up on their XWindow terminal to use it.
[technical details snipped]


*sigh* Guess I'll have to write my own XWindows-based toys....



Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
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Message no. 3
From: Specter <james@***.UNM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 23:10:12 -0700
On Sat, 9 Nov 1996, Brian W Allison wrote:

> I thought Shadowrun Companion was the CD-rom based mega-resource?

No. It's a 120 page book for $15-18. It's supposed to clear up a lot of
rules and give us more optional rules, more NPC critter/meta-types like a
Fomor and Omi, and gives us a new metatype for PCs to play with. It also
gives role-playing advice fro several types of characters like DocWagon
EMTs, corp spies, etc. This is coming out around Thanksgiving (Christmas
season, oh joy) and is necessary for _Missions_ which is supposed to come
out in December, and includes some interesting runs like a DocWagon
extraction and a rescue mission into the Chicago CZ.

James Meiers
Homepage: http://www.arc.unm.edu/~james
"When I graduate, I'm going to Bovine University."
- Ralph Wiggims, "The Simpsons"
Message no. 4
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 01:29:55 -0500
>No. It's a 120 page book for $15-18. It's supposed to clear up a lot of
>rules and give us more optional rules, more NPC critter/meta-types like a
>Fomor and Omi, and gives us a new metatype for PCs to play with. It also
>gives role-playing advice fro several types of characters like DocWagon
>EMTs, corp spies, etc. This is coming out around Thanksgiving (Christmas
>season, oh joy) and is necessary for _Missions_ which is supposed to come
>out in December, and includes some interesting runs like a DocWagon
>extraction and a rescue mission into the Chicago CZ.
>
Check out FASA's homepage for a write up on Companion

-Bull-the refrencing-decker-turned-GM


=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= =
= chaos@*****,com =
= =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"You're mocking me, aren't you?"
-Buzz Lightyear, "Toy Story"
Message no. 5
From: Sight Unseen <toabo@****.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 06:07:12 -0500
>On Sat, 9 Nov 1996, Brian W Allison wrote:
>
>> I thought Shadowrun Companion was the CD-rom based mega-resource?
>
>No.

So is FASA ever going to put out game information in a CD-ROM
format? The concept sounds wizzer.

Peace and Long Life,

Enigma
Message no. 6
From: Richard Jury <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 01:54:50 -0700
At 06:07 11/10/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>On Sat, 9 Nov 1996, Brian W Allison wrote:
>>
>>> I thought Shadowrun Companion was the CD-rom based mega-resource?
>>
>>No.
>
> So is FASA ever going to put out game information in a CD-ROM
>format? The concept sounds wizzer.


Please NO! Lookit how bad T$R fragged up with the Core Rules CD-Rom..I
know FASA has its own interactive division, so hopefully if they do decide
to do one, it will be far better. Mike, if you read this, some advice:
Make the rulebooks in some sort of format that is only useable from the
CD-rom, otherwise they'll just be zipped up and passed around the net like
crazy.

Fro
Message no. 7
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 03:34:07 -0800
Sight Unseen wrote:
> So is FASA ever going to put out game information in a CD-ROM
> format? The concept sounds wizzer.

Well TSR did it not too long ago..If FASA doesn't eventually they will
leave that market untouched...
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 12:34:51 +0100
Brian W Allison said on 19:49/ 9 Nov 96...

> I thought Shadowrun Companion was the CD-rom based mega-resource?

I hope not, I don't have a working CD-ROM player :)

> Word was that FASA was planning on putting its SR books and even an
> aide (like a GM's Tool) for faster playing, both Matrix and the rest of
> it. I'd easily pay a hundred for something like that, if I were able to
> trade CDs for a cheap (or free) upgrade.

T$R did that with a couple of AD&D books, calling it CD-ROM Core Rules. I
don't know the American price, but it's about 45 pounds in the UK; the
whole thing seems not all that useful to me (granted, it's cheaper than
buying 5 hardcover books plus assorted utilities like a character
generator) but I find it much handier to grab a book when I want to look
something up, rather than having to fire up my computer and spend half an
hour staring at a screen to find the info I'm after. Not to mention that
the books have pictures in them, which the CD versions have not.

No, I certainly wouldn't be happy with a CD-ROM only release from FASA...
However, if they'd bring out SR utilities at a reasonable price, I might
look into it... Or write my own :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't be stupid, Beavis. There's always been TV; there's just more
channels now.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 9
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 12:34:51 +0100
Richard Jury said on 1:54/10 Nov 96...

> Mike, if you read this, some advice: Make the rulebooks in some sort of
> format that is only useable from the CD-rom, otherwise they'll just be
> zipped up and passed around the net like crazy.

Hey! What are you giving him ideas for?! :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Don't be stupid, Beavis. There's always been TV; there's just more
channels now.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 10
From: Ashelock <woneal@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 11:40:24 -0005
On 10 Nov 96 at 1:54, Richard Jury wrote:

> >
> > So is FASA ever going to put out game information in a CD-ROM
> >format? The concept sounds wizzer.
>
>
> Please NO! Lookit how bad T$R fragged up with the Core Rules CD-Rom..I
> know FASA has its own interactive division, so hopefully if they do decide to
> do one, it will be far better. Mike, if you read this, some advice: Make the
> rulebooks in some sort of format that is only useable from the CD-rom,
> otherwise they'll just be zipped up and passed around the net like crazy.
>
> Fro

Fro giving advice on copyright protection, now there's irony for you! :) But
I agree they'd have to do something to prevent copies being made. Basically
the idea for a hypertext version of the rule books is a good one and some of
the books (like SSC for example) would lend themselves too it really well. I'd
hope to see a good index in there, as well as plenty of links to related rules.
Would make the books so much easier to use. And yeah, a Matrix generator/sim
of some sort would be worthwhile all by itself. TSR's frag up is a good
example of what not to do, if FASA is going to do something like this is should
be a major project and they really ought to take their time with it and make
sure EVERYTHING is correct. This would be a big chance for them to correct all
those errors that got into the rule books before.

I do have one question about it. Will it be upgradeable? That is, as they
come out with new rule books will their be upgrades to the hypertext verion and
how would that be handled. And while I'm at it, will the hypertext books have
a print feature so I can print them out, or print just a few pages (say for
player hand outs)?

Ashelock


Knowledge only has value when it is shared.
Message no. 11
From: The Crucible <crucible@******.MUR.CSU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 09:41:44 +1100
> > I thought Shadowrun Companion was the CD-rom based mega-resource?
>
> I hope not, I don't have a working CD-ROM player :)
>
> > Word was that FASA was planning on putting its SR books and even an
> > aide (like a GM's Tool) for faster playing, both Matrix and the rest of
> > it. I'd easily pay a hundred for something like that, if I were able to
> > trade CDs for a cheap (or free) upgrade.
>
> T$R did that with a couple of AD&D books, calling it CD-ROM Core Rules.

The same was done with Battletech from memory... a compendium CD-ROM with
the main rulebook and the technical read-outs as well as some pretty
animations.... Which I guess would make it easier for me to afford the
Shadowrun one if you could print character sheets... etc....

With the game you could do it with the 3d style of Mechwarrior.... gotta
admit that had some excellent animations... and if they can do a troll
like that <evil grin> Another method would be group LAN Quake/Doom/Duke
Nukem style so that you have your group stuff happening....

Now my part....

I seem to recall from the trilogy (hmm forgot the names borrowed em from
a friend) with twist and doger that twist had a problem decking due to
his mage capabilities.... would the same happen to an okatu and wouldnt
it be really crap for players if the GM didnt want them to have one and
gave em a mage instead? <evil grin>

Another idea... 2 GMs one handling the main group the other handling a
decker/s in 2 different areas and actually play like they are seperate...
the decker has to break the security of the building so that the players
arent caught on the run... but the decker can only talk to the players
when the GM lets him... ie when he is capable... and the players are
relying on him to break them in stop alarms etc.... and they have to do
it -at the same time- ie If the Decker hasnt toggled off an alarm before
the players trip it.. in our time not the game time (ie the players) then
the alarm goes off....

(if I havent explained it well.... think hard =P)

Crucible
Message no. 12
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 21:16:50 -0500
> I seem to recall from the trilogy (hmm forgot the names borrowed em from
> a friend) with twist and doger that twist had a problem decking due to
> his mage capabilities.... would the same happen to an okatu and wouldnt
> it be really crap for players if the GM didnt want them to have one and
> gave em a mage instead? <evil grin>


VR2.0, page 144, "Building an Otaku", 3rd para:

"magic is Priority E for otaku. There is no known instance of a
magically active otaku."


While you can ignore that, it seems to me to pretty well state that
magic and being an Otaku do not agree. That's why if an Otaku were
'vampirized' or 'infested' (insect spirit) then I'd rule that they lost
their Channels and Living Persona - they wouldn't be an Otaku anymore.
Want to play? Use a Deck.

And yes, you can add the Magic Attribute to all T#'s in the Matrix for
any character with Magic. If a character is Magically Active, I add their
(Sorcery+Conjuring)/2 + Magic + Grade to their Matrix T#'s. If they go the
way of the burnout, and lose all Magic points, then I no longer add in the
penalty.



Brian

--
Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 13
From: Brian W Allison <ballison@*******.WAM.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 21:17:31 -0500
> Fro giving advice on copyright protection, now there's irony for you! :) But


Copyright protection. Not so easy. (Listening Mike?)

In any OS - ANY - if you have an image on the screen, it can be captured
and printed. That means that the owner could theoretically print out the
entire book, or even electronically send the images to anyone via e-mail
or hand-carrying disks, or even snail-mailing disks.
Of course, someone can rip their books apart (my SRII's binding is
already threatening to come apart on its own) and scan them in anyway.
So for this avenue, any worry is pure wasted effort.

But for the actual *program*, and for any hyper-linking involved, *that*
is the effort which could be quasi-secured.
Unfortunately, the best schemes are:
per-cpu licenses - not viable for an Intel-clone since they don't
have cpu IDs
book-entry codewords. One pirate who enteres the books will refute
that.
Data Worms that send a UDP message to <fasa person> every time the
program starts. This'll only work on machines which are Internet-capable,
and besides which is illegal.

Hm... kind of looking grim, neh?

Ok - how about a *shudder* proprietary encryption/compression schema for
the stuff on the CD-rom, which requires one of those old parallel port
devices which are transparent to everything but the 'arp-like' signal
coming from the program? Then they could just include one device with each
CD-rom?
While this is actually fairly secure, most companies stopped using the
devices some time ago. The skinny out there is that the devices made
people not want to buy the software. Well, lemme tell you - most of that
software was drek anyway. The real problem was the early models of such
devices were faulty and could frag with other parallel devices. Newer
models haven't such bugs, but then the stigma is out there now.

Of course, remember that anyone can buy a CDrom burner and copy CDroms.
Same with disks. Nobody duplicates the parallel devices easily/quickly.

Can anyone think of another potentially 'too hard to break to bother
with' scheme of copyright protetion for the code?

Face it, the images, once on the screen, are toast for the unscrupulous.

> I agree they'd have to do something to prevent copies being made. Basically

Uh huh... I can't see this being perfect.


Please, someone prove me wrong!



> I do have one question about it. Will it be upgradeable? That is, as they

Sorry, the original idea (in the past few days anyway) on this mailing
list was the outcome of my not understanding what the Shad.Comp. is. I
wondered out loud if they were finally getting the FASA Interactive guys
CDrom product out. Drek, for all I fragging know, there may be no such
product in the works.

IOW - it was pure hope and speculation on my part.





Brian W. Allison

Computer Scientist Vocalist Would-be Poet Bicycler Scuba Diver
Hacker(0xca) Nerd(79) GenX(21) #include <witticism.h>
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~ballison

--- Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail is not welcome at this account ---
--- and will result in a US$500 fee per US Code Title 47 Sec 227. ---
Message no. 14
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 21:19:53 -0800
Ashelock wrote:
> Fro giving advice on copyright protection, now there's irony for you! :) But
> I agree they'd have to do something to prevent copies being made. Basically
> the idea for a hypertext version of the rule books is a good one and some of
> the books (like SSC for example) would lend themselves too it really well.


And if the reader is set like the Books are supposed to be..This could turn
into a really cool CD-Rom...

.......if FASA is going to do something like this is should
> be a major project and they really ought to take their time with it and make
> sure EVERYTHING is correct. This would be a big chance for them to correct all
> those errors that got into the rule books before.
>

Absolutely!

> I do have one question about it. Will it be upgradeable? That is, as they
> come out with new rule books will their be upgrades to the hypertext verion and
> how would that be handled.


Now keep in mind I'm no programmer..But I think I have a basic understanding
on how this could be handled...A small portion of info would be downloaded
from the expandable disk onto your hard drive..This Info would seek out info
from other disks and mesh with what it finds allowing upgrades and rules
revisions to be incoorporated into the old disk by adding a new one..Granted
this will mean disk changing..However, This would satisfy the need..And then
there are those who have multi-disk capability...
--
-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serinity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serinity Prayer
Message no. 15
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 00:38:55 -0800
> But for the actual *program*, and for any hyper-linking involved,
*that*
> is the effort which could be quasi-secured.
> Unfortunately, the best schemes are:
[snip]

Dvixen's dumb idea of the week:

How about making all the files invisible. Not hidden. This just happened
on my copmuter, all the files needed to run this program were, according
to everything I tried, *not* on the disk. But, the program still would
run. Kinda funky, really.

> Sorry, the original idea (in the past few days anyway) on this mailing
> list was the outcome of my not understanding what the Shad.Comp. is. I
> wondered out loud if they were finally getting the FASA Interactive guys
> CDrom product out. Drek, for all I fragging know, there may be no such
> product in the works.

Either way, it is an idea. I for one would like to be able to find all
references to a rule without having to look through all the rulebooks we
own. I'd like to enter a few search terms, and be able to read what I
want to find out, not spend a day looking through four books for a
paragraph on some esoteric rule our entire group missed. Like not adding
damage modifiers to soak rolls, or eclusive action/expendable fetish not
factoring into the drain code.

That's my only problem with books. No matter how well designed and laid
out they are, I always get annoyed by how hard it is for me to find
things. I'm sure in 205? it would be much easier. (Though there would
also be a lot more to go through.)

--
Dvixen/Snow Leopard/Celt dvixen@********.com
"Snow Melts"
The opinions expressed are those of the myriad voices in my head
Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 12:01:25 +0100
Ashelock said on 11:40/10 Nov 96...

> I do have one question about it. Will it be upgradeable? That is, as they
> come out with new rule books will their be upgrades to the hypertext verion and
> how would that be handled. And while I'm at it, will the hypertext books have
> a print feature so I can print them out, or print just a few pages (say for
> player hand outs)?

You're talking about this as if it will come out next week :) A print
feature would be handy, but if you add up the costs of printing out a
sourcebook, you're better off buying the book in hardcopy, especially if
there are color pages...

> Knowledge only has value when it is shared.

Or when you act upon it...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hijack flavors that are flippin' like birds.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 12:08:24 +0100
Brian W Allison said on 21:17/10 Nov 96...

> In any OS - ANY - if you have an image on the screen, it can be captured
> and printed.

For those interested, get Paint Shop Pro or CorelCapture (my favorite
being PSP -- it has this "It is now day 332 of you 30-day trial period"
thingie :)

> That means that the owner could theoretically print out the
> entire book, or even electronically send the images to anyone via e-mail
> or hand-carrying disks, or even snail-mailing disks.
> Of course, someone can rip their books apart (my SRII's binding is
> already threatening to come apart on its own) and scan them in anyway.
> So for this avenue, any worry is pure wasted effort.

Your only real worry with graphic images (instead of simple text) is the
horrific size that'll result from scanning/capturing an entire book. At
300 dpi, a single A4 page is about 8.3 MB, while at 100 dpi it's in the
order of 860 KB. This is uncompressed and in 16 colors (4 bit, which is
good enough quality for text and b/w line drawings), and saving it as JPEG
with a high compression ratio can get it down, but at the expense of
quality. Still, going with the 860 KB/page, a 120 page sourcebook is
about 100 MB... The same thing in a word processor format (with graphics
in the text) would be perhaps 10 MB at most, if it has a lot of graphics;
none at all means it'll be 1 MB, tops.

What I'm trying to say here is that the sheer size would be a deterrent,
IMHO -- to me it would be, at least.

> Ok - how about a *shudder* proprietary encryption/compression schema for
> the stuff on the CD-rom, which requires one of those old parallel port
> devices which are transparent to everything but the 'arp-like' signal
> coming from the program? Then they could just include one device with each
> CD-rom?

Like AutoDesk used to do for AutoCAD, you mean? And that's an example of a
program that doesn't even really need it -- using it without the manual is
rather hard, in my experience...

> Of course, remember that anyone can buy a CDrom burner and copy CDroms.
> Same with disks. Nobody duplicates the parallel devices easily/quickly.

That's a lot easier than any of the other ways of copying the books. Last
year or so, somebody suggested on the list that FASA (or whoever) could
bring our RPG products in electronic form (I think the idea was as
shareware -- download a version that has stuff locked out, and if you
like it, buy the code that will make the whole thing work), but it was
quickly pointed out that this would be all too easy to copy for everyone
-- anyone besides me remember the NAGM?

> Can anyone think of another potentially 'too hard to break to bother
> with' scheme of copyright protetion for the code?

Well... as I said for AutoCAD, the manual can be what prevents you from
copying the thing. If it's really hard to use without the manual, you
might consider buying the software instead. Still, that's never stopped
things being copied anyway, and neither have legal threats (every time I
start up Word it warns me against copying it, for example). I don't think
there's any copy protection that's too difficult to bother breaking,
really.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hijack flavors that are flippin' like birds.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 18
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:34:29 GMT
Gurth writes
>
> > In any OS - ANY - if you have an image on the screen, it can be captured
> > and printed.
>
> For those interested, get Paint Shop Pro or CorelCapture (my favorite
> being PSP --
Yeah, the 'now what format did you want that file in?'! programme.
Gets around other programmes with bust save commands etc and the
latest version have full image editing etc.

However trying to 'capture screen' a whole books worth of stuff would
fortunately send most folks so far up the wall youre fairly safe. its
only good for small amounts of stuff or things you cannot do other
ways.

>

Mark
Message no. 19
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:44:06 GMT
Dvixen writes
>
> How about making all the files invisible. Not hidden. This just happened
> on my copmuter, all the files needed to run this program were, according
> to everything I tried, *not* on the disk. But, the program still would
> run. Kinda funky, really.
>
What you probably need is a 'sector editor' quite literally gives you
direct acess to the data on the disk, you will then be able to see it
if its there. yes it can do really evil things fortunately most folks
won't know enough, and there are protections against folks using them
to read files like encrypted self extacts, ok a hacker can get round
that most likely but it keeps things under control.

I have now heard of file types for PC's that are not supposed to copy
with things like 'diskcopy' though that could be Microsoft putting
something in their software. but i don't know.
Like Acorns old 'locked programme' trick for tapes. Only Acornsoft
knew how to access the files for a fair time (folks eventually came
up with things other than twin tape decks to get around it, you can
sell anything as long as you say 'only to be used for legitimate
backing up, it being perfectly ok to make 1 copy yourself against the
danger of the origonal getting trashed) so you couldn't load the
code direct and access it, ok not perfect but.
The best copy protection is stuff that needs the manual (not book
codes, they are simple enough to clone by the unscupulos), flight
simulators were the first games i can think of to be covered this way.

Mark
Message no. 20
From: Platinum <stjeanr@********.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:46:18 -0500
>>>> I thought Shadowrun Companion was the CD-rom based mega-resource?
>>>No.
>> So is FASA ever going to put out game information in a CD-ROM
>>format? The concept sounds wizzer.
>
>
>Please NO! Lookit how bad T$R fragged up with the Core Rules CD-Rom..I
>know FASA has its own interactive division, so hopefully if they do decide
>to do one, it will be far better. Mike, if you read this, some advice:
>Make the rulebooks in some sort of format that is only useable from the
>CD-rom, otherwise they'll just be zipped up and passed around the net like
>crazy.

There is no way in hell to stop this. I'm a multimedia technologist
in training at Canadore. We are developing a CD rom every year.
The programs we would use to set this up would make and executable
file that is about 200 mb. if there isn't that much content i
would make sure to fatten it up so it is that big so if you want to
use 200+ mb on your hard drive then so be it. If Fasa was
smart the could sell it for about $29.

As a side bar< a little off topic i thinking of working on an interactive
comic book. I'm not advertising because i haven't developed it but would
it be a good idea. i.e the entire onslaught saga with animation and sound
on CD.ROM> mail flames, and answers to stjeanr@********.canadorec.on.ca

platinum
Message no. 21
From: Max Rible <cheshire@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:55:08 -0800
At 16:46 11/11/96 -0500, Platinum wrote:
>> Mike, if you read this, some advice:
>>Make the rulebooks in some sort of format that is only useable from the
>>CD-rom, otherwise they'll just be zipped up and passed around the net like
>>crazy.

>There is no way in hell to stop this. I'm a multimedia technologist
>in training at Canadore. We are developing a CD rom every year.
>The programs we would use to set this up would make and executable
>file that is about 200 mb. if there isn't that much content i
>would make sure to fatten it up so it is that big so if you want to
>use 200+ mb on your hard drive then so be it. If Fasa was
>smart the could sell it for about $29.

There are measures you can take to make it difficult to pirate things off
of a CD-ROM, but Platinum has the best one right there: price. A CD-ROM
isn't that expensive to create. If you just take care to weave text,
graphics, and sound together extremely well (such as having the Seattle
map hyperlink to the descriptions in the sourcebook-- you can do this using
HTML or PDF format, BTW) and price it fairly low ($30-$50), people will
tend to buy it because it's not worth the hard drive space to store the
whole thing.

The "subscription" notion-- being able to get new ones as new sourcebooks
come out-- would also be a splendid thing. However, I'm not sure it could
be made profitable for FASA.
--
%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
%%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%%
%%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%%
Message no. 22
From: Platinum <stjeanr@********.CANADOREC.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 21:54:20 -0500
my comments<snip>
>
>There are measures you can take to make it difficult to pirate things off
>of a CD-ROM, but Platinum has the best one right there: price. A CD-ROM
>isn't that expensive to create. If you just take care to weave text,
>graphics, and sound together extremely well (such as having the Seattle
>map hyperlink to the descriptions in the sourcebook-- you can do this using
>HTML or PDF format, BTW) and price it fairly low ($30-$50), people will
>tend to buy it because it's not worth the hard drive space to store the
>whole thing.
>
>The "subscription" notion-- being able to get new ones as new sourcebooks
>come out-- would also be a splendid thing. However, I'm not sure it could
>be made profitable for FASA.
>--
>%%% Max Rible %%% cheshire@*****.com %%% http://www.amurgsval.org/~cheshire %%%
>%%% "Before enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice. %%%
>%%% After enlightenment: sharpen claws, catch mice." - me %%%
>
I hope they do a better job on this than they did on their homepage. two
pages of text and not a single picture. I think they could have done a way
better job on it. It would be nice to see a searchable index and maybe a
random rule viewer. Have the index keep track of what you have seen, your
bookmarks, etc.
the random rule toy is great for those days you just wanna read something
and maybe encounter something new.

platinum

Say mike if your out there i'm done my program in april. we can get the ball
rolling then. I'll have on CD under my belt then.
Message no. 23
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 12:26:02 -0700
<SNIP>
> I thought Shadowrun Companion was the CD-rom based mega-resource?

Now this sounds interesting, and is something I'd definitely go for...

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 24
From: Loki <loki@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 11:24:04 -0700
<SNIP>
> I seem to recall from the trilogy (hmm forgot the names borrowed em from
> a friend) with twist and doger that twist had a problem decking due to
> his mage capabilities.... would the same happen to an okatu and wouldnt
> it be really crap for players if the GM didnt want them to have one and
> gave em a mage instead? <evil grin>

This comes from an optional rule brought out the 1st edition Virtual
Realities. It is suggested that a magically active character gets his magic
rating added as a penalty to all tests while in the matrix. This was to
represent the trouble a mage/shaman would have understanding and
interacting with a totally artificial universe.

Otaku aren't magically active, plus they understand the matrix realm better
than anyone else. So I don't see that it would apply.

@>-,--'--- Loki

CLARKE'S THIRD LAW:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

*********************************************
Poisoned Elves
http://www.netzone.com/~loki/
*********************************************
Message no. 25
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:08:22 -0500
>Sure, the SrCo *GAG*....

<lots o' snippage>

Okay, I've been here for a little while, and I keep seeing this reaction to
the SRC. And having seen it enough, I've got one little question that's
bugging me: Why is the reaction so negative?

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 26
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 08:19:14 EDT
In a message dated 8/23/1998 1:23:10 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
rabiddwarf@******.NET writes:

> Patrick Goodman wrote:
> > In general, however, I like the SRC and have found it useful. While I
can
> > tell immediately just looking at it that some people aren't going to like
> > some sections, I can't see why it gets such an enormous negative
reaction.
> > It's not that bad.
>
> I feel that the reason it is so unliked is because it is made for the
> "average player/GM".

IMPO, I believe that the SRComp is NOT for the average player at least. GM, I
don't know. Kind of flipped about that thought.

> All of the die-hard munchkins, or "power gamers", don't like it because
> there is nothing appealing in there for them. No new equipment or spells
> and no new ways to "rape" the game system.

I don't know, the Edges/Flaws system that is introduced in SRComp opens the
doors to these two categories of manipulation FAR more than anything else
(including the Shapeshifter PC's) I have ever seen FASA put forward.

> All of the older established players, or "Gurus", have usually developed
> house rules, or use other people's house rules, for most of the useful
> situations addressed in the book.

I can believe and agree with this.

> So who does that leave? Well, that leaves the newer players more
> dedicated to role playing then power gaming and those who don't have a
> whole lot of experience or knowledge of the game or the system.

I am not sure however I agree with this assertion. My beliefs in the
Edges/Flaws is the basis for this opinion. BUT, I can see the book working
well, in fact all of the books and the material they introduce, as working
very well in the hands of a "player(s) more dedicated to role playing than
<insert various expletives here>".

> The reason it is not well liked on the list, and PLEASE no one take this
> as a personal attack on your gaming style, is that most of the people on
> this list, at least most of the people who post regularly, are either
> "Power Gamers" or "Gurus".

I can more or less agree with your statement here as well. I'm not sure the
term "Guru" can fit for any of the members on this list, including Gurth. As
a game mechanics situation, then sure, there are many people (Gurth, Steve K.,
Jon S., and others) who could readily be called "Guru" (hell, in two of
examples, they -WROTE- the mechanics), but as far as being completely
experienced in every situation.

I don't believe anyone is a "Guru". Just well Educated ;)

> And accordingly they have little time for the SRC.

Now this one statement is the thing that I find I really can't agree with. As
a GM, my personal thing is to be as familiar (not necessarily memorizing) as I
can with all the material put out towards a given game system. Granted, not
every GM has this option (Tim Kerby's "Adventure" thread gives examples of
this) for time or preparation.

> I happen to like it. I won't go indepth but I like the ideas and content
> of MOST of the book and give it a favorable review. Now I have played SR
> since SR1 came out, and I know the rules well, but I'm no "Guru" and I'm
> certainly no Munchy. So take my opinion at its face value.

I'll take the opinion, and match it. Not raising it, as it is said good
enough on it's own.

-K (who is stunned at finding (potential) similarities between himself and
several other list members out there...including Two-Step :P)
Message no. 27
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 09:47:11 -0500
>-K (who is stunned at finding (potential) similarities between himself
>and several other list members out there...including Two-Step :P)

Stranger things, I'm sure, have happened. I mean, hell, O.J. got off....
<ducks>

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 28
From: Matt T Ork <steelclaw@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 10:55:08 -0400
On Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:08:22 -0500 Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET> writes:

>Okay, I've been here for a little while, and I keep seeing this reaction
to
>the SRC. And having seen it enough, I've got one little question that's
>bugging me: Why is the reaction so negative?

Myself...I dunno. I've got the book, and can't figure out why some on
here don't care for it much. There's an optional point system if one's
into that sorta thing, and it seems to work okay (though I prefer
priorities). I like the idea of the metahuman subspecies (Minotaur,
Hobgoblin, etc) and more on playing a shapeshifter. Granted, some of the
rules are just a wee bit to complex. I can't ever think of why I should
need to roll to see if a Contact knows a "friend of a friend" but, I use
the book. It's okay by me.

-Matt, Homo Sapiens Robustus
***********************************
"It's only one of six books I have. Gotta stick up for it."

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 29
From: Grahamdrew <mnemonic25@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 11:49:10 -0400
> Okay, I've been here for a little while, and I keep seeing this reaction to
> the SRC. And having seen it enough, I've got one little question that's
> bugging me: Why is the reaction so negative?

Well, I kinda feel that SRComp is kinda trying to substitute a few years
of experience for a few more optional rules. It's kinda like they are
suggesting stuff that most die-hards have been using for years.

The point build system, IMHO, is a great example of this. It's giving
mechanic bonuses (increased attributes, lightneing reflexes, ect) for
stuff people should be doing already, role playing. Adding stuff like
most of the flaws was always called "background" or "characer depth"
to
me. It kinda seems like the SRComp (at least the point build system)is
ment more for beginning players who are haveing a LOT of troble creating
a decent char...
Message no. 30
From: Randy Nickel <LrdDrgn@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 14:28:35 EDT
In a message dated 8/22/98 5:09:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, remo@***.NET
writes:

> Okay, I've been here for a little while, and I keep seeing this reaction to
> the SRC. And having seen it enough, I've got one little question that's
> bugging me: Why is the reaction so negative?
>

Some people on the list believe the Companion allows for too many players to
min/max, powergame or munchkin their characters.

I believe that there is that potential there but that as GM you can always
disallow anything that you don't want in your game. I think the Edges and
Flaws create a more detailed character.

Otter
Message no. 31
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 01:15:35 EDT
In a message dated 8/23/1998 9:49:56 AM US Eastern Standard Time, remo@***.NET
writes:

> >-K (who is stunned at finding (potential) similarities between himself
> >and several other list members out there...including Two-Step :P)
>
> Stranger things, I'm sure, have happened. I mean, hell, O.J. got off....
> <ducks>

Yes, but that would that Hell has frozen over too...oh wait, what was that
sale on Ice at work the other day ;P

-K
Message no. 32
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:06:30 -0500
>> Stranger things, I'm sure, have happened. I mean, hell, O.J. got
>> off.... <ducks>
>
>Yes, but that would that Hell has frozen over too...oh wait, what
>was that sale on Ice at work the other day ;P

Send some here; we're in the middle of a drought.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 33
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:21:19 -0400
On Mon, 24 Aug 1998, Patrick Goodman wrote:

->>> Stranger things, I'm sure, have happened. I mean, hell, O.J. got
->>> off.... <ducks>
->>
->>Yes, but that would that Hell has frozen over too...oh wait, what
->>was that sale on Ice at work the other day ;P
->
->Send some here; we're in the middle of a drought.

We're soaked here in N.Fl. At least there's a Tropical
Depression/storm coming your way to releive some of that drought..
You can't win for losing some times, can you? ]:-)

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 34
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 09:30:55 -0500
>->Send some here; we're in the middle of a drought.
>
> We're soaked here in N.Fl. At least there's a Tropical
>Depression/storm coming your way to releive some of that drought..


We're sincerely hoping some of that makes it this far inland.

>You can't win for losing some times, can you? ]:-)

No, not really, but that's what I get for living in the Texas Panhandle.

And I still need to write up the Panhandle in 2060 thing I was planning to
do...one more thing to do in my copious unstructured free time....

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 35
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:33:15 -0600
Gurth here... (Don't worry, I will probably be out of touch with the list
again for the next week or so.)

At 08:19 8/23/98 -0400, you wrote:

>> All of the older established players, or "Gurus", have usually
developed
>> house rules, or use other people's house rules, for most of the useful
>> situations addressed in the book.
>
>I can believe and agree with this.

Yep, me too.

>> The reason it is not well liked on the list, and PLEASE no one take this
>> as a personal attack on your gaming style, is that most of the people on
>> this list, at least most of the people who post regularly, are either
>> "Power Gamers" or "Gurus".

But I don't agree with this... (Just to be clear, I'm _not_ taking this
personal.) You get a lot of different people who post on this list, and
they're all kinds of different players -- definitely not all powergamers;
as for the Guru bit, that's nothing but a long-running joke that most
people here don't even know the origin of, let alone were around when it
first came up. (Interested parties can check out
http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/guru.txt for more info.)

>I can more or less agree with your statement here as well. I'm not sure the
>term "Guru" can fit for any of the members on this list, including Gurth.

Keith, check the URL above, and possibly the logs from around the time of
the post in that file. It'll make it much clearer.

>I don't believe anyone is a "Guru". Just well Educated ;)

Not me... :)

>> And accordingly they have little time for the SRC.
>
>Now this one statement is the thing that I find I really can't agree with.
As
>a GM, my personal thing is to be as familiar (not necessarily memorizing)
as I
>can with all the material put out towards a given game system.

I have to agree with Keith here -- the Companion can be quite a useful
book, but IMHO mainly for getting ideas for your own game, instead of using
its material as-is.
-
< http://www.interware.it/users/adamj / ICQ# 2350330 / fro@***.ab.ca >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / TSS Productions >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< "I'm your friend, and friends don't let heads drive drunk." -Al Snow>
Message no. 36
From: Steel Hawk <steel.hawk@************.COM>
Subject: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:58:47 -0700
Anybody know where I can scan an electric version of
the edges and flaws in da companion?

-SH
Message no. 37
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:12:54 -0400
On 24 Sep 98, at 13:58, Steel Hawk wrote:

> Anybody know where I can scan an electric version of
> the edges and flaws in da companion?

You mean where you can score a illegal copy of copyright
infringement of FASA's property?

--


=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - |"Letter writing is the only
- drekhead@***.net - | device for combining
HTML to: drekhead@********.net | solitude and good company."
ICQ - UIN 2883757 | -Lord Byron
Message no. 38
From: Fixer <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:22:21 -0400
On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Steel Hawk wrote:

->Anybody know where I can scan an electric version of
->the edges and flaws in da companion?

Incredibly bad form. You do realize that would be illegal, don't
you? And to do so on a list where the publishers themselves, in addition
to several people very dedicated to FASA, are on I think deserves the
"Dumb Things" award all by itself.
Oh, and the answer, myself, is no but thanks for asking, I needed
a bit of humor.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 39
From: Steel Hawk <steel.hawk@************.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:51:43 -0700
Fixer wrote:
>
> On Thu, 24 Sep 1998, Steel Hawk wrote:
>
> ->Anybody know where I can scan an electric version of
> ->the edges and flaws in da companion?
>
> Incredibly bad form. You do realize that would be illegal, don't
> you? And to do so on a list where the publishers themselves, in addition
> to several people very dedicated to FASA, are on I think deserves the
> "Dumb Things" award all by itself.
> Oh, and the answer, myself, is no but thanks for asking, I needed
> a bit of humor.
>
> Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
> the difficult I do all day long,
> the impossible only during the week,
> and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....
>
> Now tell me, what was your problem?
Im sure. Just like scans of copyrighted FASA images arnt illegal?
Its just information, I don't belive it's illegal to reproduce rules
on edges and flaws. If it was then most char. generators would be
illegal. Don't go psycho.

-SH
Message no. 40
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:56:55 -0400
Steel Hawk wrote:
> > ->Anybody know where I can scan an electric version of
> > ->the edges and flaws in da companion?
> > Incredibly bad form. You do realize that would be illegal,
> don't
> > you? And to do so on a list where the publishers themselves, in
> addition
> > to several people very dedicated to FASA, are on I think deserves the
> > "Dumb Things" award all by itself.
> Im sure. Just like scans of copyrighted FASA images arnt illegal?
>
They are illegal, except when FASA has given explicit permission to do
so.

> Its just information, I don't belive it's illegal to reproduce rules
> on edges and flaws. If it was then most char. generators would be
> illegal. Don't go psycho.
>
Character generators don't give you enough info to play the game - just
the name of the edge and the cost. The mechanics are locked away safely
in the book.

btw - your Reply-To is overriding the list.

James Ojaste
Message no. 41
From: Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:07:50 -0400
On 24 Sep 98, at 14:51, Steel Hawk wrote:

> Im sure. Just like scans of copyrighted FASA images arnt illegal?

No, they are too.

> Its just information, I don't belive it's illegal to reproduce >
rules
> on edges and flaws. If it was then most char. generators would be
> illegal. Don't go psycho.

Hehe. Just information. What the hell do you think a copyright is?

I supposed your next question will be "Where is the warez"?

Geez. Buy the damn books, or do without.
Welcome to life.

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - |"Letter writing is the only
- drekhead@***.net - | device for combining
HTML to: drekhead@********.net | solitude and good company."
ICQ - UIN 2883757 | -Lord Byron
Message no. 42
From: Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:07:58 -0400
At 02:51 PM 9/24/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Im sure. Just like scans of copyrighted FASA images arnt illegal?
>Its just information, I don't belive it's illegal to reproduce rules
>on edges and flaws. If it was then most char. generators would be
>illegal. Don't go psycho.
>
>-SH

How many SR websites do you see with anything more than the logo (which is
illegal if you don't have FASAs permission)? It is illegal to display SR
art on your website without permission (FASA has the right to slap you with
a court case and a hefty fine). Character Generators also fall under the
intellectual property -- a gray area.

But Mr. Hawk, it would be illegal to copy anything that does not have
"permission to copy" printed somewhere on it from any published game.


(>)noysh the spoonë bard
-> jack of all trades, master of none. <-
Message no. 43
From: The Great Cornholio <ChemPhD2Be@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:17:14 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-24 16:14:12 EDT, shaung@**********.NET writes:

<< How many SR websites do you see with anything more than the logo (which is
illegal if you don't have FASAs permission)? It is illegal to display SR
art on your website without permission (FASA has the right to slap you with
a court case and a hefty fine). Character Generators also fall under the
intellectual property -- a gray area.

But Mr. Hawk, it would be illegal to copy anything that does not have
"permission to copy" printed somewhere on it from any published game. >>

Not to speak for the Almighty FASA corp, but you have to think they could slap
a lawsuit (very T$Rish) on anyone using their banners, etc. if they wanted.
But what better way to promote your game? If someone isn't making money off
of it, why complain? It's free press, and it increases awareness and
interest.

Of course, scanning rulebooks and posting them would be bad and inviting a
lawsuit. But if there's no harm in it, FASA sees nothing but positives.

TGC
Message no. 44
From: K in the Shadows <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 01:39:26 EDT
In a message dated 9/24/1998 2:53:02 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
steel.hawk@************.com writes:

> Im sure. Just like scans of copyrighted FASA images arnt illegal?
> Its just information, I don't belive it's illegal to reproduce rules
> on edges and flaws. If it was then most char. generators would be
> illegal. Don't go psycho.
>
> -SH

I'll be as nice as possible on this one. Scans of said materials without
permission -ARE- illegal in all aspects. It is just that FASA is normally
incredibly cool about images and stuff, as long as proper accredation (sp?) is
given.

That is why I and Nexx mentioned that character generator someone has. That
guy is charging money for the program, without the permission of FASA in doing
so. That is wrong. A character generator that is *shareware* is not
necessarily illegal, just as long as it is kept as *freeware* unless proper
licensing has been obtained.

-K
Message no. 45
From: Adam J <adamj@*********.HTML.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 00:22:39 -0600
At 01:39 9/25/98 -0400, K in the Shadows wrote

>That is why I and Nexx mentioned that character generator someone has. That
>guy is charging money for the program, without the permission of FASA in
doing
>so.

AFAIK Mike Hartmann -does- have permission to charge for his chargen. I
seem to recall him mentioning his dealings with FASA about getting
permission over a year ago.

-Adam J
--
< TSS Productions down - New URL Soon! / adamj@*********.html.com >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / ICQ# 2350330 >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Co-Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< "Raven loves me! He just bought me a new rubber ducky!" - Lodi >
< TSS : ftp://thor.flashpt.com/pub/srun/ShadowrunSupplemental/pdf >
Message no. 46
From: Lady Jestyr <jestyr@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:58:30 +1000
>That is why I and Nexx mentioned that character generator someone has. That
>guy is charging money for the program, without the permission of FASA in
doing
>so. That is wrong. A character generator that is *shareware* is not
>necessarily illegal, just as long as it is kept as *freeware* unless proper
>licensing has been obtained.

Mike Hartmann may well have permission - but he's the best one to answer
this question. Mike, are you there? :)

Lady Jestyr

- Eagles may soar, but turkeys don't get sucked into jet engines. -
jestyr@*******.com.au URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr
Message no. 47
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:59:55 +0200
According to The Great Cornholio, at 19:17 on 24 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> Not to speak for the Almighty FASA corp, but you have to think they could slap
> a lawsuit (very T$Rish)

I think a lot of the current listmembers weren't on the net at the time
that particular thing was going on, so they might not understand the
reference.

> on anyone using their banners, etc. if they wanted.
> But what better way to promote your game? If someone isn't making money off
> of it, why complain? It's free press, and it increases awareness and
> interest.

Agreed. Now if all those web sites were running the game into the ground
(in whatever way) or everybody was making money off of FASA's efforts (or
reducing FASA's profits), then it's be a whole different issue. As it is,
though, I doubt FASA will mind if you create things like character
generators -- after all, you'll need to buy the rulesbooks to make sense
of the program's output...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Unconsciousness is no excuse.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 48
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:26:23 -0700
> AFAIK Mike Hartmann -does- have permission to charge for his chargen.
> I
> seem to recall him mentioning his dealings with FASA about getting
> permission over a year ago.
>
Then he must be joking to think he'll get many people to pay $50 for it.
He's got a lot of nice idea's to disable it though...rights info into
the registry about if you have previously installed it...so you can't
just keep reinstalling the shareware.

-=Toffer=-
Message no. 49
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 08:28:08 -0700
With all the people talking about him...I'm sure he would have spoke up
by now. :)

-=Toffer=-
Message no. 50
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:18:02 -0700
> Agreed. Now if all those web sites were running the game into the
> ground
> (in whatever way) or everybody was making money off of FASA's efforts
> (or
> reducing FASA's profits), then it's be a whole different issue. As it
> is,
> though, I doubt FASA will mind if you create things like character
> generators -- after all, you'll need to buy the rulesbooks to make
> sense
> of the program's output...
>
Not if the generator is cleverly wrote enough...a well wrote progrom's
output should be understandable by anyone, who knows what the program is
for...at least that's what I'm aiming for....something for the newbies,
as well as the veterans.

-=Toffer=-
Message no. 51
From: The Great Cornholio <ChemPhD2Be@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:10:41 EDT
In a message dated 98-09-25 05:08:14 EDT, gurth@******.NL writes:

<< > Not to speak for the Almighty FASA corp, but you have to think they could
slap
> a lawsuit (very T$Rish)

I think a lot of the current listmembers weren't on the net at the time
that particular thing was going on, so they might not understand the
reference. >>

Now if I'm not mistaken.... (gathering the grandchildren around the chair,
leaning back and puffing on the pipe in a pensive storytelling mode)... A
while back T$R decided it was high time to use all the power it had to make
sure that all T$R accessories and game supplements came directly from T$R in a
very real and legally binding sense. So they threatened everyone with an
unregulated website with a lawsuit, so all the dirt-poor webmasters out there
were muscled out of the T$R unauthorized accessory game, so anyone who wanted
anything would have to go through the company. Nice, neh?

A little bit of history for people on the net...

TGC

I can't remember if they did the same thing with the listserv / newsgroups as
well, but I think they did....
Message no. 52
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:30:38 -0400
At 01:10 PM 9-25-98 EDT, you wrote:
>
>Now if I'm not mistaken.... (gathering the grandchildren around the chair,
>leaning back and puffing on the pipe in a pensive storytelling mode)... A
>while back T$R decided it was high time to use all the power it had to make
>sure that all T$R accessories and game supplements came directly from T$R
in a
>very real and legally binding sense. So they threatened everyone with an
>unregulated website with a lawsuit, so all the dirt-poor webmasters out there
>were muscled out of the T$R unauthorized accessory game, so anyone who wanted
>anything would have to go through the company. Nice, neh?
>
>A little bit of history for people on the net...
>
>TGC
>
>I can't remember if they did the same thing with the listserv / newsgroups as
>well, but I think they did....

While T$R went overboard, there actually are legal reasons for that kind of
behavior, due to the US's screwy copyright protection laws. You see, in
the US copyright holders are required to lodge a "vigorous defense" of
their copyrights and trademarks, lest they lose the right to exclusively
use them. That's right, if anybody uses your stuff without your permission
and you don't contest it, then you've effectively ceded your stuff into the
public domain.


Starjammer | "Would it help if we sacrificed a
goat?"
starjammer@**********.com | -- Street sam "Crusher" Carlson
to mage
Marietta, GA | Straight Blue, on a really bad day
Message no. 53
From: "Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:54:48 -0400
Davidson, Chris wrote:
> > Agreed. Now if all those web sites were running the game into the
> > ground
> > (in whatever way) or everybody was making money off of FASA's efforts
> > (or
> > reducing FASA's profits), then it's be a whole different issue. As it
> > is,
> > though, I doubt FASA will mind if you create things like character
> > generators -- after all, you'll need to buy the rulesbooks to make
> > sense
> > of the program's output...
> >
> Not if the generator is cleverly wrote enough...a well wrote progrom's
> output should be understandable by anyone, who knows what the program is
> for...at least that's what I'm aiming for....something for the newbies,
> as well as the veterans.
>
He means that you would still need to buy the appropriate books in order
to make use of the stuff. A character sheet doesn't explain the steps
required to cast spells, simple/complex actions, the various damage
resistance tests and so on. It can give you clearly labelled *stats*,
but there isn't room for the *rules*.

James Ojaste
Message no. 54
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:09:22 -0700
> He means that you would still need to buy the appropriate books in
> order
> to make use of the stuff. A character sheet doesn't explain the steps
> required to cast spells, simple/complex actions, the various damage
> resistance tests and so on. It can give you clearly labelled *stats*,
> but there isn't room for the *rules*.
>
Good point. Maybe that would be a nifty expansion...a Grimoire of
sorts...someplace where mages can put all their spells and their
forces...and the computer will roll the dice for you and kill you target
for you and...and...geez, maybe I should just make a computer game.
hehehe Too many idea's floating around in my head.

-=Toffer=-
Message no. 55
From: Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:50:57 -0400
Starjammer wrote:
>
> While T$R went overboard, there actually are legal reasons for that kind of
> behavior, due to the US's screwy copyright protection laws. You see, in
> the US copyright holders are required to lodge a "vigorous defense" of
> their copyrights and trademarks, lest they lose the right to exclusively
> use them. That's right, if anybody uses your stuff without your permission
> and you don't contest it, then you've effectively ceded your stuff into the
> public domain.


Correct for trademarks; incorrect for copyright. Trademarks, such as
"Xerox" or "Diet Coke," have to be defended or else suits against
future
infringements can't be sustained in court. But copyrights are permanent
and can't be weakened. If I have intellectual property, and I decide to
let everyone in the world rip it off without my permission *except*
Starjammer in Marietta, then I can sue you successfully without regard for
how any other people took advantage of me.


Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net
Message no. 56
From: Starjammer <starjammer@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 17:06:27 -0400
At 03:50 PM 9-25-98 -0400, you wrote:

<snip my faulty legal analysis>

>Correct for trademarks; incorrect for copyright. Trademarks, such as
>"Xerox" or "Diet Coke," have to be defended or else suits against
future
>infringements can't be sustained in court. But copyrights are permanent
>and can't be weakened. If I have intellectual property, and I decide to
>let everyone in the world rip it off without my permission *except*
>Starjammer in Marietta, then I can sue you successfully without regard for
>how any other people took advantage of me.
>
>Have Fun,
> - Steve Eley

My bad. Well, I never claimed to be a lawyer, though I knew it was
something along those lines.

Though, I do think that if you tried filing a lawsuit against "Starjammer"
you might have trouble making your case. :)

Starjammer | "Would it help if we sacrificed a
goat?"
starjammer@**********.com | -- Street sam "Crusher" Carlson
to mage
Marietta, GA | Straight Blue, on a really bad day
Message no. 57
From: Chameleon <cham@***.BIGPOND.NET.AU>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 10:35:34 GMT
And so, on Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:09:22 -0700 did "Davidson, Chris"
<Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM> quoth merrily:

>Good point. Maybe that would be a nifty expansion...a Grimoire of
>sorts...someplace where mages can put all their spells and their
>forces...and the computer will roll the dice for you and kill you target
>for you and...and...geez, maybe I should just make a computer game.
>hehehe Too many idea's floating around in my head.
>
>-=Toffer=-

Now that WOULD break copyright and get FASA anoyed, making a computer
game of their game without asking them.

Chameleon,

--
Don't be silly. If this was REALLY the ships self destuct button,
do you think they would leave it lying around where anyone could press =
it?
- Famous Last Words
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
I'm always here, you just don't see me:)
Message no. 58
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 13:23:22 +0200
According to Davidson, Chris, at 9:18 on 25 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> > though, I doubt FASA will mind if you create things like character
> > generators -- after all, you'll need to buy the rulesbooks to make
> > sense
> > of the program's output...
> >
> Not if the generator is cleverly wrote enough...a well wrote progrom's
> output should be understandable by anyone, who knows what the program is
> for...at least that's what I'm aiming for....something for the newbies,
> as well as the veterans.

The important phrase here is "who knows what the program is for" -- and to
know that, you need to buy the books. (Well, someone in your game group
needs to have the books.) If I were to download a character generator for,
say, GURPS, I could probably sort of understand what it outputs because of
my familiarity with RPGs in general, even though I haven't played GURPS
and only flipped through the rulebook about three times in my life.
However, I wouldn't be able to play the game if all I have is that
character generator -- I need the basic rulebook(s) for that.

It's the same with an SR character generator: someone with access to the
books will understand it, and be able to use it. Someone without, won't.
Thus, FASA won't lose money because of your character generator, because a
book will have to be sold for people to be able to use the program.

Now if FASA were to bring out a character generator themselves, you could
be cutting into their profits and it might be a completely different
situation.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Nobody's going to murder anyone here even if it means I have to
kill someone!" --Kane, detective/rigger
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 59
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 13:23:22 +0200
According to The Great Cornholio, at 13:10 on 25 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> Now if I'm not mistaken.... (gathering the grandchildren around the chair,
> leaning back and puffing on the pipe in a pensive storytelling mode)... A
> while back T$R decided it was high time to use all the power it had to make
> sure that all T$R accessories and game supplements came directly from T$R in a
> very real and legally binding sense. So they threatened everyone with an
> unregulated website with a lawsuit, so all the dirt-poor webmasters out there
> were muscled out of the T$R unauthorized accessory game, so anyone who wanted
> anything would have to go through the company. Nice, neh?

It later turned out, IIRC, that T$R did this mainly because their lawyers
kept pushing the idea on them. (This might be an example of people doing
things because others keep nagging at them for long enough.)

> I can't remember if they did the same thing with the listserv / newsgroups as
> well, but I think they did....

AFAIK it was _all_ electronic media -- FTP sites, web sites (the few that
were there), BBS's, and more. It prompted Hayden to write Tom Dowd and ask
about FASA's stance, and he was reassured that FASA had no such intentions
as long as due credit was given etc.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"Nobody's going to murder anyone here even if it means I have to
kill someone!" --Kane, detective/rigger
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 60
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 09:06:56 -0700
> >Good point. Maybe that would be a nifty expansion...a Grimoire of
> >sorts...someplace where mages can put all their spells and their
> >forces...and the computer will roll the dice for you and kill you
> target
> >for you and...and...geez, maybe I should just make a computer game.
> >hehehe Too many idea's floating around in my head.
> >
> >-=Toffer=-
>
> Now that WOULD break copyright and get FASA anoyed, making a computer
> game of their game without asking them.
>
Guess I'll just have to get their permission, hehehe...BTW, have you
seen a game called Fallout yet? SR type genra (did I spell that right?)
Not a bad game, but I think that's an evil clone of SR. Hehehe.

-=Toffer=-
Message no. 61
From: "Davidson, Chris" <Christopher.Davidson@***.BOEING.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 09:32:34 -0700
> It's the same with an SR character generator: someone with access to
> the
> books will understand it, and be able to use it. Someone without,
> won't.
> Thus, FASA won't lose money because of your character generator,
> because a
> book will have to be sold for people to be able to use the program.
>
The last thing I want is to cut into FASA's profits...there's only 2
basic reason's I'm making it...1) to see if I can, hehehe...2) cause
I'm not the brainiest person in the world, and I don't remember all the
rules for every system I play, this way I won't have to remember all the
rules concerning character creation...tho, I'll wadger that by the time
I'm done, I'll pretty much have them imprinted in my head anyway,
hehehe.

> Now if FASA were to bring out a character generator themselves, you
> could
> be cutting into their profits and it might be a completely different
> situation.
>
Now that would be kinda cool...that would save me the trouble of making
one, hehehe. :)

-=Toffer=-
Message no. 62
From: kawaii trunks@********.org
Subject: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:57:34 -0400
Ok, I've just seen the cover of SR Comp on the FASA page.

The question is: Is this the same content as the previous one or is there
enough changes from the old SR Comp to make it worth buying? (I hear all the
snide comments in the back of all of y'all's heads already. Shhh. ;)) (Wow
that sentence was horrible, grammatically. ;))

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii
Message no. 63
From: Guido the Enforcer Guido_the_Enforcer@********.com
Subject: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:29:56 -0800 (PST)
I bought it because I like to have a "complete" set. If I remember the common
consensus when this came out though, most agreed that it was far too much old content.
Yes the updated tables are nice, as well as some of the SR3 updated info, but a
substancial chunk of it was "old."

--- "kawaii" <trunks@********.org>
> wrote:
>Ok, I've just seen the cover of SR Comp on the FASA page.
>
>The question is: Is this the same content as the previous one or is there
>enough changes from the old SR Comp to make it worth buying? (I hear all the
>snide comments in the back of all of y'all's heads already. Shhh. ;)) (Wow
>that sentence was horrible, grammatically. ;))
>
>Ever lovable and always scrappy,
>kawaii

=
Guido the Enforcer
http://members.xoom.com/TCShadownode


"They say teaching sex education in the public schools will promote promiscuity.
With our educational system? If we promote promiscuity the same way we promote math or
science, they've got nothing to worry about!"

-- Beverly Mickins

_____________________________________________________________
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Message no. 64
From: Grey metis76@*****.com
Subject: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:44:49 -0700 (PDT)
The only changes are the revamped point system (which
was posted to the list a week or two ago) and they
added being a Ghoul as a PC option (which isn't that
cool anyways). In other words, if you have the old
one, spend the 15 bucks on something else.

Grey

--- kawaii <trunks@********.org> wrote:
> Ok, I've just seen the cover of SR Comp on the FASA
> page.
>
> The question is: Is this the same content as the
> previous one or is there
> enough changes from the old SR Comp to make it worth
> buying? (I hear all the
> snide comments in the back of all of y'all's heads
> already. Shhh. ;)) (Wow
> that sentence was horrible, grammatically. ;))
>
> Ever lovable and always scrappy,
> kawaii
>
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com
Message no. 65
From: abortion_engine abortion_engine@*******.com
Subject: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:16:08 -0400
From: "kawaii" <trunks@********.org>
> The question is: Is this the same content as the previous one or is there
> enough changes from the old SR Comp to make it worth buying?

I think it was worth buying, if you ever use the points system for character
creation, which we generally do around here, it being easier to create
"more-than-starting" characters that way. Otherwise, we haven't used the
book once. Only the new points and Edges and Flaws system got used around
here, but that was worth US$15 for us. The new Ghoul and Otaku information
was...well, useful if you do that sort of thing, but no one here has gotten
into it that far. We've still got plenty of "normal" character ideas,
without resorting to "exotics."

Which brings me to my next post. A moment, please.
Message no. 66
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Shadowrun Companion
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 16:57:53 -0500
From: Grey
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 4:45 PM

> The only changes are the revamped point system (which
> was posted to the list a week or two ago) and they
> added being a Ghoul as a PC option (which isn't that
> cool anyways). In other words, if you have the old
> one, spend the 15 bucks on something else.

Incorrect. They did a massive cleanup on the Edges and Flaws, cleaned
up the shaper rules (though not enough to suit me), revamped the point
system, added several pages of Athletics rules that didn't get into the
core book because of space considerations, added the ghoul PC options,
cleaned up the metarace variants for use with 3rd edition...dammit, I
know I'm missing something.

(Ghoul PCs, incidentally, can be very, very cool indeed. Just because
you don't think they are doesn't mean that someone else won't find it a
cool notion.)

Anyway, there were a boatload of changes made throughout the book;
easily a third of the book is new stuff, or substantially cleaned up
stuff. You might see it differently, of course, but there's a lot of
stuff in there that a lot of people could find worthwhile, and that at
the same time wasn't in the original SRComp.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

Further Reading

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