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Message no. 1
From: mc23@**********.com (MC23)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 00:47:10 -0500
For those who didn't knoww


http://www.wizkidsgames.com/wk_article.asp?cid7455&frame=Ourgames

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 2
From: ValeuJ@*************.navy.mil (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 09:14:05 -0800
>For those who didn't knoww


> http://www.wizkidsgames.com/wk_article.asp?cid7455&frame=Ourgames
>
>
And for those of us that can't surf while at work, could someone paraphrase
please?
Is this Magic dueling? Swords? Guns?

If it's magic, I already got SotA: 2063, but they have new rules for more
dramatic sword or gun fights....
Message no. 3
From: nightgyr@*********.com.au (GreyWolf)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 17:32:00 +1100
Its mutable action figurines in the legacy of mage knight system.

There is the troll combat mage, the street sam, the yakuza bro^H^H^Hwoman,
the elf street mage, the dwarf rigger, etc.

GreyWolf

nb: is SOTA2063 more than just a set of adventures? I didnt see extra rules
in it else I would have bought the copy I found last week!



----- Original Message -----
From: "Valeu John EMFA" <ValeuJ@*************.navy.mil>
To: "'Shadowrun Discussion'" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 4:14 AM
Subject: RE: Shadowrun: Duels


> >For those who didn't knoww
>
>
> > http://www.wizkidsgames.com/wk_article.asp?cid7455&frame=Ourgames
> >
> >
> And for those of us that can't surf while at work, could someone
paraphrase
> please?
> Is this Magic dueling? Swords? Guns?
>
> If it's magic, I already got SotA: 2063, but they have new rules for more
> dramatic sword or gun fights....
Message no. 4
From: Shannon@*****.co.za (Shannon Buys)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 08:59:41 +0200
> >For those who didn't knoww
>
>
> > http://www.wizkidsgames.com/wk_article.asp?cid7455&frame=Ourgames
> >
> >
Damn, guys this looks uhm, quite cool, not what I'd be able to use in games
to represent combat, but hey, it might just boost interest enough to bring
out more 28mm shadowrun minis. Just hope these things don't cost what most
other action figures cost lately or I'm going to be looking for a second (or
possibly third) job.
Message no. 5
From: mc23@**********.com (MC23)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 09:45:40 -0500
Once Upon A Time Shannon Buys wrote,

>Damn, guys this looks uhm, quite cool, not what I'd be able to use in games
>to represent combat, but hey, it might just boost interest enough to bring
>out more 28mm shadowrun minis. Just hope these things don't cost what most
>other action figures cost lately or I'm going to be looking for a second (or
>possibly third) job.

I'd like to get them all too but price does concern me.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 6
From: mc23@**********.com (MC23)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 09:48:34 -0500
Once Upon A Time Valeu John EMFA wrote,

>And for those of us that can't surf while at work, could someone paraphrase
>please?
>Is this Magic dueling? Swords? Guns?

Fighting Action Figures. Think larger scale miniature combat game
using auction figures with optional equipment (included with the figures).

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 7
From: mamos@*****.com (Mike Amos)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 08:00:23 -0700
> I'd like to get them all too but price does concern me.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, just what I needed for them to totally
trivialize the game by making it a childs toy. What a pisser. Besides that
did anyone happen to notice teh dice in the picture? A sign of thingfs to
come? Nonstandrd D6s. I hated Mage Knight, K'm sure I'll hate these. I kinda
wanna buy them just for being shadowrun, but they look like crap. Why can't
the just rerelease the miniatures?

Sob Sob
Message no. 8
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 10:06:33 -0500
At 10:00 2/17/2003, Mike Amos wrote:

>NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, just what I needed for them to totally
>trivialize the game by making it a childs toy. What a pisser. Besides that
>did anyone happen to notice teh dice in the picture? A sign of thingfs to
>come? Nonstandrd D6s. I hated Mage Knight, K'm sure I'll hate these. I kinda
>wanna buy them just for being shadowrun, but they look like crap. Why can't
>the just rerelease the miniatures?

Because WizKids no longer makes pewter minis. If you want new Shadowrun
minis, getting in contact with Iron Wind Metals -
http://www.ironwindmetals.com/- is the thing to do.

Adam
--
| Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental: http://tss.dumpshock.com |
| adamj@*********.com | http://www.talkinabout.com | UIN: 2350330 |
Message no. 9
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 11:23:34 -0500
At 10:06 AM 2/17/2003, Adam Jury wrote:
>At 10:00 2/17/2003, Mike Amos wrote:
>
> >NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, just what I needed for them to totally
> >trivialize the game by making it a childs toy. What a pisser. Besides that
> >did anyone happen to notice teh dice in the picture? A sign of thingfs to
> >come? Nonstandrd D6s. I hated Mage Knight, K'm sure I'll hate these. I kinda
> >wanna buy them just for being shadowrun, but they look like crap. Why can't
> >the just rerelease the miniatures?
>
>Because WizKids no longer makes pewter minis. If you want new Shadowrun
>minis, getting in contact with Iron Wind Metals -
>http://www.ironwindmetals.com/- is the thing to do.

Too bad they can't get somebody like Reaper to do Shadowrun minis. Their
fantasy minis are fantastic.

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
Message no. 10
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 11:23:34 -0500
At 10:06 AM 2/17/2003, Adam Jury wrote:
>At 10:00 2/17/2003, Mike Amos wrote:
>
> >NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, just what I needed for them to totally
> >trivialize the game by making it a childs toy. What a pisser. Besides that
> >did anyone happen to notice teh dice in the picture? A sign of thingfs to
> >come? Nonstandrd D6s. I hated Mage Knight, K'm sure I'll hate these. I kinda
> >wanna buy them just for being shadowrun, but they look like crap. Why can't
> >the just rerelease the miniatures?
>
>Because WizKids no longer makes pewter minis. If you want new Shadowrun
>minis, getting in contact with Iron Wind Metals -
>http://www.ironwindmetals.com/- is the thing to do.

Too bad they can't get somebody like Reaper to do Shadowrun minis. Their
fantasy minis are fantastic.

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
Message no. 11
From: grimjack@******.com (Martin Little)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 11:36:40 -0500 (EST)
On Mon, 17 Feb 2003, Mike Amos wrote:

> > I'd like to get them all too but price does concern me.
>
> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, just what I needed for them to totally
> trivialize the game by making it a childs toy. What a pisser. Besides that
> did anyone happen to notice teh dice in the picture? A sign of thingfs to
> come? Nonstandrd D6s.

I took a quick look, what's non standard about them? They appear to be
cubes, without incorrect face layout (Ie you can't see 6 and 1 beside each
other in any of the pictures)

> I hated Mage Knight, K'm sure I'll hate these. I kinda
> wanna buy them just for being shadowrun, but they look like crap. Why can't
> the just rerelease the miniatures?
>
> Sob Sob
>

I donno, there are a lot of people who probably would never get involved
with SR without this, perhaps it will help bring more interest to the
actual RPG. Don't be like the btechers and write it off as a horrible
thing until we see how it pans out.
Message no. 12
From: justin@******.net (Justin Bell)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 11:40:18 -0500
Martin Little said the following on 2/18/2003 11:36 AM:
> On Mon, 17 Feb 2003, Mike Amos wrote:
>
>
>>> I'd like to get them all too but price does concern me.
>>
>>NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, just what I needed for them to totally
>>trivialize the game by making it a childs toy. What a pisser. Besides that
>>did anyone happen to notice teh dice in the picture? A sign of thingfs to
>>come? Nonstandrd D6s.
>
>
> I took a quick look, what's non standard about them? They appear to be
> cubes, without incorrect face layout (Ie you can't see 6 and 1 beside each
> other in any of the pictures)

you didn't see the d4s, the d8 and the d10?
Message no. 13
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 11:46:30 -0500
At 11:40 2/17/2003, Justin Bell wrote:

>> I took a quick look, what's non standard about them? They appear to be
>> cubes, without incorrect face layout (Ie you can't see 6 and 1 beside each
>> other in any of the pictures)
>
>you didn't see the d4s, the d8 and the d10?

How are those non-standard? Remember, Duels is a WizKids game, and aside
from being in the Sixth World, does not relate to the RPG published by
FanPro at this time. It's not an expansion or a side project or anything
like that, it's a completely different game by a different company for a
different audience.

Adam
--
| Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental: http://tss.dumpshock.com |
| adamj@*********.com | http://www.talkinabout.com | UIN: 2350330 |
Message no. 14
From: grimjack@******.com (Martin Little)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 11:51:58 -0500 (EST)
On Mon, 17 Feb 2003, Justin Bell wrote:

>
>
> Martin Little said the following on 2/18/2003 11:36 AM:
> > On Mon, 17 Feb 2003, Mike Amos wrote:
> >>come? Nonstandrd D6s.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> >
> > I took a quick look, what's non standard about them? They appear to be
> > cubes, without incorrect face layout (Ie you can't see 6 and 1 beside each
> > other in any of the pictures)
>
> you didn't see the d4s, the d8 and the d10?
>
>
I was refering to that specific line.
Message no. 15
From: justin@******.net (Justin Bell)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 11:48:50 -0500
Adam Jury said the following on 2/17/2003 11:46 AM:
> At 11:40 2/17/2003, Justin Bell wrote:
>
> >> I took a quick look, what's non standard about them? They appear to be
> >> cubes, without incorrect face layout (Ie you can't see 6 and 1
> beside each
> >> other in any of the pictures)
> >
> >you didn't see the d4s, the d8 and the d10?
>
> How are those non-standard? Remember, Duels is a WizKids game, and aside
> from being in the Sixth World, does not relate to the RPG published by
> FanPro at this time. It's not an expansion or a side project or anything
> like that, it's a completely different game by a different company for a
> different audience.

actually, the d8 was non standard, in that it had a big giant circle
thing on the top side
Message no. 16
From: mamos@*****.com (Mike Amos)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 11:14:15 -0700
> How are those non-standard?

I did realize that sentence was poorly constructed prior to sending it, I
decided to leave it as I figured that it could be understood. What I was
referring to was that they were not D6's.

I also failed to clarify my objections to the action figures. As I said
before, I hate Mage Knight. I think I am the only person though. To me it
seems like RPGing for Dummies. It lacks any resemblance to Role-playing, and
only has Roll-playing. Now, I may be seeing this wrong and someone will
flame me immediately saying they role-play with them, but to me it seemed
like the whole point of their design was Roll-playing. These new action
figures reflect a similar goal to me. Shadowrun for dummies?
Now the idea of Shadowrun action figures seems neat, but the characters are
so wildly varied that they could not be expected to represent your favorite
character. Now Mini's are also limited in this same capacity but appear to
be much cheaper to turn out more of a variety of and still allow you to
paint them to match your personal style. Minis have the added advantage of
working with most hex maps like you can pick up at your local gaming store.
These new action figures do not. These new figures lack a lot of usability
in most peoples games. If you wanted to use action figure sized placeholders
for your characters wouldn't it be much cheaper to go and buy those crap
$.99 GI Joe knock offs at your local department store. They would stand
about as good of a chance of actually looking like your character, much
better if you play a human.
I guess what I'm getting at is that these new action figures add nothing
usable to the Shadowrun universe, in my opinion. I would rather Whizkids
spend more time licensing functional products than rather than another
action figure for me to sticky tac to my computer monitor. I for one will
not be investing in these little creations. I will continue to buy and paint
minis instead.

Just my opinion, sprayed with flame retardant, so flame on.

Mike
Message no. 17
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 13:19:55 -0500
At 13:14 2/17/2003, Mike Amos wrote:

>I also failed to clarify my objections to the action figures. As I said
>before, I hate Mage Knight. I think I am the only person though. To me it
>seems like RPGing for Dummies. It lacks any resemblance to Role-playing, and
>only has Roll-playing. Now, I may be seeing this wrong and someone will
>flame me immediately saying they role-play with them, but to me it seemed
>like the whole point of their design was Roll-playing. These new action
>figures reflect a similar goal to me. Shadowrun for dummies?

They aren't roleplaying products. Full stop. There's no debate about that -
they are not meant to add anything to the Shadowrun RPG.

Adam
--
| Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental: http://tss.dumpshock.com |
| adamj@*********.com | http://www.talkinabout.com | UIN: 2350330 |
Message no. 18
From: justin@******.net (Justin Bell)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 13:19:34 -0500
Mike Amos said the following on 2/17/2003 1:14 PM:
>>How are those non-standard?
>
>
> I did realize that sentence was poorly constructed prior to sending it, I
> decided to leave it as I figured that it could be understood. What I was
> referring to was that they were not D6's.
>
> I also failed to clarify my objections to the action figures. As I said
> before, I hate Mage Knight. I think I am the only person though. To me it
> seems like RPGing for Dummies. It lacks any resemblance to Role-playing, and
> only has Roll-playing.

MageKnight is not roleplaying, and is never intended to be

It's war gaming, collectable war gaming at that. It's basically Magic
The Gathering meets Warhammer
Message no. 19
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 18:54:58 +0000
At 06:32 AM 17/2/2003, Greywolf wrote:
>nb: is SOTA2063 more than just a set of adventures? I didnt see extra rules
>in it else I would have bought the copy I found last week!

Adventures?
Are you thinking about Survival of the Fittest?

State of the Art 2063 is full of all sorts of gear and such.


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 20
From: christopherbeilby@***.net (Chris Beilby)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 13:56:58 -0500
Of course Mage Knights doesn't feel like a RPG. Neither does Warhammer
40,000, VOR, or any other miniatures Wargame. THEY AREN'T RPGs.
Message no. 21
From: ianvs@**********.com (IANVS)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 16:41:07 -0500
The thing that concerns me the most (even more than price) is the
scale. Guessing about 5-6" for human scale these things don't encourage
me to build scenery. I've been into wargaming a lot lately so I wouldn't
mind turning my skills towards that but at that scale everything I'd want
to use would be a larger scale than I would want to mess with. Using the
possible figures to show kneeling and prone positions would be great
though.
Message no. 22
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 14:35:46 -0800 (PST)
> > I hated Mage Knight, K'm sure I'll hate these. I kinda
> > wanna buy them just for being shadowrun, but they look like crap.
> > Why can't the just rerelease the miniatures?

> I donno, there are a lot of people who probably would never get
> involved with SR without this, perhaps it will help bring more
> interest to the actual RPG. Don't be like the btechers and write
> it off as a horrible thing until we see how it pans out.

I have read through this thread mostly amused. You see, while
Shadowrun is far and away my favorite RPG, I have been
playing/running (A)D&D for longer. When WotC unleased their now
famous CCG blitz on the world, I reacted much as Mike is reacting to
the action figures. I was introduced to role playing at the age of
8. It immediately struck me as far superior to playing with dolls,
be they Barbies or my much preferred Star Wars Action Figures
(remember those, with a wopping 4 points of articulation?). I
plunged into RPGs and never looked back. By the time Tragic: the
Dithering was released, I had evolved into the kind of roleplayer
that can actually play character of the opposite gender without it
being a ridiculous characature. The sort who willingly plays a
character with severe handicaps and limited combat potential because
it will be a fun challenge. Along came Tragic. Everyone was singing
the praises of this new, different style of role playing. I freaked.
It was NOT role playing! It was NOT really new! It was turning
(war)fantasy gaming into some sort of kid's toy! Etc. CCGs are
simply wargames: strategy, probability, and logistics planning based
on well constructed and balanced mathematics. The founder of Tragic
is a genius mathmetician with numerous published papers on games
theory. I figured out eventually that I was reacting to the CCG as
if it would kill my hobby, driving all the new players away. In one
sense it did. For a good while, RPG sales dropped...for some game
companies, fatally. What I discovered as I matured, and CCGs did not
go away, is this. The potential gamers pulled away by the cards are
the kind I hate anyway. The munchkins. Those looking to build
combat god characters, to caper around in a world with no
consequences, to be untouchable and answer to no one. The sort who
become Game Masters and have erotic dreams about making all their
NPCs into Harlequin clones. Once I realized this, I was happy they
had somewhere to caper that was not my beloved genre. These action
figures will not distract potential young SR players away from the
RPG. Will NOT. I guarantee it. Long time SR players will wander
over and dabble. And come back. One in every thousand or so who
play it will stumble into the RPG due to name recognition (which is
the real SR marketing tie-in). The RPG will go on. Perhaps improved
because the troll/ghoul/intiate/cyberzombie gun-bunny, whining,
munchkin players will be too busy experimenting with Kyushi's "kung
fu action grip" to drop around and give us headaches at the gaming
table. Shadowrun: Duels will not be all that much of a boon to the
Shadowrun RPG. However, it also will not really do any damage. It
will not be as high profile as a movie, so if the game turns out to
be a debacle, the damage will be fairly contained (compared to say,
the D&D movie). Worst case scenario: the cames emerges, dies, and
gets forgotten. All other scenarios: the game broadens the market
for the Shadowrun concept (a near-future Earth filled with believable
sci-fi technology and the very fantasy elements that brought
roleplaying into existence from the cradle of wargaming), by some
unknown number between 0 and the global population. I would bet you
hard cash that the people who played WWII or American Civil War
reenactment wargames felt about Dungeons & Dragons much the same way
Mike feels about Duels.

I have an entirely different concern about Duels. The figures look
pretty detailed, as do their weapons. So now the morons who think
talking about casting spells between two characters comprises
satanism can join forces with the idiots who think that a
rubber/plastic toy gun engenders homicidal, nut-job tendencies in
children. A whole new cause will rise up from the ranks of Americans
(and others) who think ignorance, illiteracy, and bigotry are part
and parcel of piety. I can hear the chants now, see slogans blazoned
across web pages and newspapers. They'll say the Duels is teaching
children to work voodoo devil powers on other children, backed up by
violent gun-wielding tendencies just in case the spells don't hold.
Think I am way off base here? I draw your attention to the Two
Towers protest group. If Darwinism worked on an intellectual level,
whole portions of the world's population would simply implode and
fade away. Alas, they are instead permitted to share their
stupidity, which spreads like a virus. I hope someone discovers a
cure soon. Otherwise I may have to bust out some devil voodoo,
perhaps a conjured demon, a bag of guns, and go on a little rampage
down at the mall. ;p (That last sentence was a JOKE. Just in
case any knees jerked out there in email land.)

======Korishinzo
--wanders back into lurk mode


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Shopping - Send Flowers for Valentine's Day
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Message no. 23
From: mamos@*****.com (Mike Amos)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 15:42:47 -0700
Your gaming style does sound like mine. I thank you for your post. The most
reassuring thing I have seen yet.

As for the satanic link. People are messed up in the head. They will make
this link, maybe not with this product though. It may not be big enough.
Someday they will make this kind of link. Then the protests should be
hilarious for people watchers like me.

I think I'm gonna become a hermit, it would be much safer for everyone
involved.
Message no. 24
From: mc23@**********.com (MC23)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 18:17:18 -0500
Once Upon A Time Mike Amos wrote,

>As for the satanic link. People are messed up in the head. They will make
>this link, maybe not with this product though. It may not be big enough.
>Someday they will make this kind of link. Then the protests should be
>hilarious for people watchers like me.

Look, I'm here in the Bible Belt and there's more pressing visible
targets than RPG's and the sort. 9-11 saw to that. They don't have to
create a rallying point over something that trivial (nor would they get
much attention).

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are,
not as they ought to be."
-The Devil's Dictionary, Ambrose Bierce

I am MC23
Message no. 25
From: mamos@*****.com (Mike Amos)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 16:23:12 -0700
I grew in Iowa my folks always told me how evil D&D was. I still conceal my
Role-playing when they come visit me. I know I'm a chicken. It's just easier
than explaining that I play devil games, while listening to devil music,
while living with my fiancee out of wedlock, while playing devil
videogames... and so on.

I remeber the huge deal they made when I was a kid, several different times,
when some kid would crush another kids head with a rock. They news always
said they were playing D&D. I have since played D&D and have no idea at what
point you would have a rock over someones head and possibly drop it. I mean
a properly thrown D20 could leave a nasty bruise, but that's about it.
Message no. 26
From: loneeagle@********.co.uk (Lone Eagle)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 23:46:15 +0000
At 10:35 PM 17/2/2003, Korishinzo wrote:
><Snip>
>children. A whole new cause will rise up from the ranks of Americans
>(and others) who think ignorance, illiteracy, and bigotry are part
>and parcel of piety. I can hear the chants now, see slogans blazoned
>across web pages and newspapers. They'll say the Duels is teaching
>children to work voodoo devil powers on other children, backed up by
>violent gun-wielding tendencies just in case the spells don't hold.
>Think I am way off base here? I draw your attention to the Two
>Towers protest group. If Darwinism worked on an intellectual level,
>whole portions of the world's population would simply implode and
>fade away. Alas, they are instead permitted to share their
>stupidity, which spreads like a virus.

It is unfortunately all too true, however, I would have to draw your
attention to that classic vindication of vaguely intelligent people
everywhere... The Darwin Awards.


--
Lone Eagle
"Hold up lads, I got an idea."

www.wyrmtalk.co.uk - Please be patient, this site is under construction

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Message no. 27
From: shiva@*********.net (Shiva Khan)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2003 22:22:26 -0700
Mike Amos said the following on 2/17/2003

> I also failed to clarify my objections to the action figures.
> As I said before, I hate Mage Knight. I think I am the only
> person though. To me it seems like RPGing for Dummies. It
> lacks any resemblance to Role-playing, and only has
> Roll-playing. Now, I may be seeing this wrong and someone
> will flame me immediately saying they role-play with them,
> but to me it seemed like the whole point of their design was
> Roll-playing. These new action figures reflect a similar goal
> to me. Shadowrun for dummies? Now the idea of Shadowrun
> action figures seems neat, but the characters are so wildly
> varied that they could not be expected to represent your
> favorite character. Now Mini's are also limited in this same

Some of the people I game with get the little Mage knight minis to use
as unique creature or to help fill in for some metal mini they havn't
bought yet. I made the mistake of asking then how the Mage Knight game
was played and they told me they have no idea, they just like the minis.
As for these shadowrun ones I will get them because I think they lok
cool, not because they are some game or what ever. Most likely stick
them on a shelf next to my various dragon statues with Darth Maul and
Darth Vader and a few other action figures I have and basicly forget
about them. Oh well. I think I have bored everyone enough with my
pointless whatever. Later all, off to finsh up so game notes.

Shiva Khan


Memory, like fire, is radiant and immutable. While history serves only
those who seek to control it. Those who would douse the flame of memory
in order to put out the dangerous fire of truth. Beware these men! For
they are dangerous and unwise. Their false history is written in the
blood of those who might remember and of those who seek the truth.
Message no. 28
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 00:32:34 -0500
At 12:22 AM 2/18/2003, Shiva Khan wrote:
>Mike Amos said the following on 2/17/2003
>
> > I also failed to clarify my objections to the action figures.
> > As I said before, I hate Mage Knight. I think I am the only
> > person though. To me it seems like RPGing for Dummies. It
> > lacks any resemblance to Role-playing, and only has
> > Roll-playing. Now, I may be seeing this wrong and someone
> > will flame me immediately saying they role-play with them,
> > but to me it seemed like the whole point of their design was
> > Roll-playing. These new action figures reflect a similar goal
> > to me. Shadowrun for dummies? Now the idea of Shadowrun
> > action figures seems neat, but the characters are so wildly
> > varied that they could not be expected to represent your
> > favorite character. Now Mini's are also limited in this same
>
>Some of the people I game with get the little Mage knight minis to use
>as unique creature or to help fill in for some metal mini they havn't
>bought yet. I made the mistake of asking then how the Mage Knight game
>was played and they told me they have no idea, they just like the minis.
>As for these shadowrun ones I will get them because I think they lok
>cool, not because they are some game or what ever. Most likely stick
>them on a shelf next to my various dragon statues with Darth Maul and
>Darth Vader and a few other action figures I have and basicly forget
>about them. Oh well. I think I have bored everyone enough with my
>pointless whatever. Later all, off to finsh up so game notes.

My Shadowrun GM uses MageKnight minis of one particular faction for a
steampunk game he runs... Of course, he goes so far as to remove them from
the click-bases. :)

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman
Message no. 29
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: Shadowrun: Duels
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 10:10:22 +0200
Ice Heart wrote:
> I have read through this thread mostly amused. You see,
> while Shadowrun is far and away my favorite RPG, I have been
> playing/running (A)D&D for longer. When WotC unleased their
> now famous CCG blitz on the world, I reacted much as Mike is
> reacting to the action figures. I was introduced to role
> playing at the age of 8. It immediately struck me as far
> superior to playing with dolls, be they Barbies or my much
> preferred Star Wars Action Figures (remember those, with a
> wopping 4 points of articulation?). I plunged into RPGs and
> never looked back. By the time Tragic: the Dithering was
> released, I had evolved into the kind of roleplayer that can
> actually play character of the opposite gender without it
> being a ridiculous characature. The sort who willingly plays
> a character with severe handicaps and limited combat
> potential because it will be a fun challenge. Along came
> Tragic. Everyone was singing the praises of this new,
> different style of role playing. I freaked. It was NOT role
> playing! It was NOT really new! It was turning (war)fantasy
> gaming into some sort of kid's toy! Etc. CCGs are simply
> wargames: strategy, probability, and logistics planning based
> on well constructed and balanced mathematics. The founder of
> Tragic is a genius mathmetician with numerous published
> papers on games theory. I figured out eventually that I was
> reacting to the CCG as if it would kill my hobby, driving all
> the new players away. In one sense it did. For a good
> while, RPG sales dropped...for some game companies, fatally.
> What I discovered as I matured, and CCGs did not go away, is
> this. The potential gamers pulled away by the cards are the
> kind I hate anyway. The munchkins. Those looking to build
> combat god characters, to caper around in a world with no
> consequences, to be untouchable and answer to no one. The
> sort who become Game Masters and have erotic dreams about
> making all their NPCs into Harlequin clones. Once I realized
> this, I was happy they had somewhere to caper that was not my
> beloved genre. These action figures will not distract
> potential young SR players away from the RPG. Will NOT. I
> guarantee it. Long time SR players will wander over and
> dabble. And come back. One in every thousand or so who play
> it will stumble into the RPG due to name recognition (which
> is the real SR marketing tie-in). The RPG will go on.
> Perhaps improved because the troll/ghoul/intiate/cyberzombie
> gun-bunny, whining, munchkin players will be too busy
> experimenting with Kyushi's "kung fu action grip" to drop
> around and give us headaches at the gaming table. Shadowrun:
> Duels will not be all that much of a boon to the Shadowrun
> RPG. However, it also will not really do any damage. It
> will not be as high profile as a movie, so if the game turns
> out to be a debacle, the damage will be fairly contained
> (compared to say, the D&D movie). Worst case scenario: the
> cames emerges, dies, and gets forgotten. All other
> scenarios: the game broadens the market for the Shadowrun
> concept (a near-future Earth filled with believable sci-fi
> technology and the very fantasy elements that brought
> roleplaying into existence from the cradle of wargaming), by
> some unknown number between 0 and the global population. I
> would bet you hard cash that the people who played WWII or
> American Civil War reenactment wargames felt about Dungeons &
> Dragons much the same way Mike feels about Duels.
>
> I have an entirely different concern about Duels. The
> figures look pretty detailed, as do their weapons. So now
> the morons who think talking about casting spells between two
> characters comprises satanism can join forces with the idiots
> who think that a rubber/plastic toy gun engenders homicidal,
> nut-job tendencies in children. A whole new cause will rise
> up from the ranks of Americans (and others) who think
> ignorance, illiteracy, and bigotry are part and parcel of
> piety. I can hear the chants now, see slogans blazoned
> across web pages and newspapers. They'll say the Duels is
> teaching children to work voodoo devil powers on other
> children, backed up by violent gun-wielding tendencies just
> in case the spells don't hold.
> Think I am way off base here? I draw your attention to the
> Two Towers protest group. If Darwinism worked on an
> intellectual level, whole portions of the world's population
> would simply implode and fade away. Alas, they are instead
> permitted to share their stupidity, which spreads like a
> virus. I hope someone discovers a cure soon. Otherwise I
> may have to bust out some devil voodoo, perhaps a conjured
> demon, a bag of guns, and go on a little rampage
> down at the mall. ;p (That last sentence was a JOKE. Just in
> case any knees jerked out there in email land.)

I think you hit the nail on the head, but I sense one more thing behind
Mike's issues with Duels. Correct me if I'm wrong here Mike, but you also
feel slightly violated by the fact that an RPG of such caliber, one that you
hold in very high regard, can be even remotely associated with something
so...umm...cheesy (for lack of a better word). It attacks what you view to
be the integrity of the "Shadowrun Everything".

I could be wrong, but I understand the sentiment. It irks me a little bit
too, but I understand what WizKids is trying to do, and I think Kori's
explanation above is extremely pertinent.

Just my 2 cents.


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon


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Message no. 30
From: joeandjeanie@*********.ca (joe)
Subject: Shadowrun duels
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 15:30:54 -0400
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Lurking made off

Greetings
Could someone please give me some details/insight, into these
Shadowrun Duel collectable figure things I'm seeing advertised. I hail
from Canada, and haven't come across them in any of the stores that I
frequent. My only source of reference, is the inside back page of the
August issue of Anime Insider.

Thanks

Joe.

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Message no. 31
From: tjlanza@************.com (Timothy J. Lanza)
Subject: Shadowrun duels
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 15:41:06 -0400
At 03:30 PM 7/2/2003, joe wrote:
> Could someone please give me some details/insight, into these
> Shadowrun Duel collectable figure things I'm seeing advertised. I hail
>from Canada, and haven't come across them in any of the stores that I
>frequent. My only source of reference, is the inside back page of the
>August issue of Anime Insider.

Ever seen any of the other 'Clix games? It's very similar, but the figures
are large action figure sized (closer to original GI Joe than the ones with
all the funky vehicles).

Unlike the other 'Clix games, it's not collectible... or rather, not random
packaged. You and a friend buy the characters you want to play, then get
down to some face beating.

As for actual playing... Dunno... never done it. Don't have the money to
buy any.

The figures themselves are rather well done, especially the Troll Mage.

--
Timothy J. Lanza
"When we can't dream any longer, we die." - Emma Goldman

Further Reading

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