Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject: ShadowRun/ Earthdawn
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 22:13:20 -0700
Would all you folk out there who own earthdawn or have parused (sp?) it
please inform the rest of us of some of your conclusions.

The most obvious that I have found in my 1h glance is the blood queen
the queen of the blood woods (?) ED
and the picture of the blood queen TT
They both have thorns through their skin and such

as to discrepancies - well there are MANY - but thats what makes it even more
exciting when you find similarities.


Dan
Message no. 2
From: Doctor Doom <JCH8169@*****.TAMU.EDU>
Subject: ShadowRun :: Earthdawn
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 21:08:55 -0600
>From Herr Omillian:

> Does it matter if Earthdawn or Shadowrun are supposed to be linked?
>There are eons apart! Anyway does it even matter. I don't think so. If FASA
>wants to link them together let them. So what if there are similarities

I believe, mein Herr, that you mis-divine our intent in the drawing attention
to the various connections betwixt the two systems...in that information
present in one may assist in the shedding of light upon mysteries in the other.

There IS a definite link betwixt the games...Earthdawn is merely the ShadowRun
world set back approximately five millenium--whereas ShadowRun is the Sixth
World, Earthdawn is the Fourth. As to the analyzing of the various
similarities and connections between the two, there are a few reasons:

Many are understandably curious regarding the events to come in the Harlequin's
Back adventure to debue this coming year, due to the plethora of possible
ramifications upon the ShadowRun world. If examination of the Horrors within
Earthdawn proves a useful endeavor in this analysis, then comparison is
warrented.

Furthermore, several relatively recent ShadowRun pamphlets issued by FASA have
alluded to a certain "hidden" truth, if you will. Discovery of, or more
realistically, the acquiring of more data from which to aid speculation
regarding this truth is considered by many to be a worthwhile exercise--hence
the drawing data from Earthdawn sources.

The purpose is NOT strict comparison, rather a pooling of information in an
effort to gain a better glimpse at "The Big Picture."

>conclussion I'm the GM for my groups and NOBODY I know has lasted over
>three hundred runs.(what fatality do you play on? If you can't run with the
>big dogs go play with the pups.) How much karma do you get?(if you can save up
>fifty points I think somethings WRONG.

I am uncertain as to what provoked these remarks. To what precisely are you
responding?


Colonel Count von Hohenzollern und von Doom, DMSc, DSc, PhD.

Doom Technologies & Weapon Systems -- Dark Thought Publications
>>> Working on solutions best left in the dark.
<<<
[ Doctor Doom : jch8169@********.tamu.edu ]
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
"Give me an army of West Point graduates, and I'll win a battle. Give me a
handfull of Texas Aggies, and I'll win a war."
-- General George S. Patton
Message no. 3
From: Terry Amburgey <xanth@****.UKY.EDU>
Subject: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 14:44:16 -0400
B&A Spaugh wrote:

>Assuming that there are a lot of cross-members
>of the EarthDawn Mailing List I was just wondering
>if anyone else was having problems staying subscribed?
>Does the ED List even still exist?

[sarcasm mode on]
Stick around, it won't be long before shadowrn is the earthdawn mailing list.
[sarcasm mode off]

I picked up Worlds Without End last night and I''ve made it about 2/3's of
the way through. I like the book, but I'm reminded of Fearless Leader's
commentary this summer about the direction FASA is taking shadowrun: away
from cyberpunk. I'm beginning to come to the same conclusion, shadowrun
seems to be evolving into another magically oriented fantasy game with
broadswords replaced by submachine guns. **SIGH**. Terry
Terry L. Amburgey Office: 606-257-7726
Associate Professor Home: 606-224-0636
College of Business & Economics Fax: 606-257-3577
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506
Message no. 4
From: U-Gene <R3STG@***.CC.UAKRON.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 15:50:08 EDT
Terry Amburgey:
> [snip] shadowrun seems to be evolving into another megically oriented
>fantasy game with broadswords replaced by submachinguns. **SIGH**

Arghhhhhhhh. The Horror! It would be an incredible travesty for SR to
lose its cyberpunkish flavor. The books may change, my campaign WILL NOT!
Magicaly oriented, that would suck.

Player -- "I open the chest."
GM -- "+3 HK227 of Quick Drawing"

U-Gene << has now become very angry and upset at this disturbing news :( >>
Message no. 5
From: "Matthew P. Macstravic" <s0238115@********.MONMOUTH.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 18:34:01 EDT
>
> Terry Amburgey:
> > [snip] shadowrun seems to be evolving into another megically oriented
> >fantasy game with broadswords replaced by submachinguns. **SIGH**
>
> Arghhhhhhhh. The Horror! It would be an incredible travesty for SR to
> lose its cyberpunkish flavor. The books may change, my campaign WILL NOT!
> Magicaly oriented, that would suck.
>
> Player -- "I open the chest."
> GM -- "+3 HK227 of Quick Drawing"
>
Good point....the whole reason I joined the Shadows was so I could get away
from that AD&D "Magical-Land" crap....The Cyber-Punk Genre is what Shadowrun
is all about! FASA is nuts!!!!

Of course, we could all start playing Cyberpunk2020....The only role-playing
game that has stats for Penial Implants....Next: Dick-Guns

GM: The guy says he has a magnum in his pants...
Unsuspecting Female Player : I tell him to prove it.
***BLAM!!!!*** You're dead.

Matt
Message no. 6
From: Helge Diernaes <ecocide@***.CBS.DK>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 00:19:08 +0100
On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Matthew P. Macstravic wrote:
> Good point....the whole reason I joined the Shadows was so I could get away
> from that AD&D "Magical-Land" crap....The Cyber-Punk Genre is what
Shadowrun
> is all about! FASA is nuts!!!!
>
Does FASA keep an eye on this mailing list or any other public forum? I
agree much with you, also since Magic in SR is fine, but it has to be
kept to a tool-amongst-other-tools level. All powerful magic and I'm off
to CP2020 or Cyberspace :-(
But ofcourse, as others have said, let the children play. The GM's and
players hopefully knows how things should be and can discard crappy concepts.

--
Regards,

Silhouette


___________
___________________________________________
___________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________
Helge Diernaes | "I'm going slightly mad..."
ecocide@***.cbs.dk | Frank Mercury, Queen
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
-----------
Message no. 7
From: Mike Loseke <mike@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 17:49:42 -0600
> Does FASA keep an eye on this mailing list or any other public forum? I

A few of the guys from FASA do watch, and sometimes post to,
rec.games.frp.cyber.

> agree much with you, also since Magic in SR is fine, but it has to be
> kept to a tool-amongst-other-tools level. All powerful magic and I'm off
> to CP2020 or Cyberspace :-(

I'm there, dude...

--
Mike Loseke - Ft Collins, CO | Administrator's Dictionary --
mike@***.sc.colostate.edu | user (loo'zer) n. 1 A waste of system resources;
SysAdm, Lory SC, CSU | an unwanted load on the processor(s) of a Unix
http://www.sc.colostate.edu | system. 2 Someone who uses Caps Lock.
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 11:23:16 +0100
Helge Diernaes said on 5 Oct 95...

> Does FASA keep an eye on this mailing list or any other public forum?

Not on this list, AFAIK. It seems no one has been able to convince them to
join yet (or is this info outdated?)

> I agree much with you, also since Magic in SR is fine, but it has to be
> kept to a tool-amongst-other-tools level. All powerful magic and I'm off
> to CP2020 or Cyberspace :-(

Which is why we're doing a NERPS book that does _not_ revolve around
magic, in fact one from which I personally would like to keep magic away
as much as possible if it is not absolutely required.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Keep on running back into that wall
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 9
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:30:16 +0100
Terry Amburgey wrote:
> I picked up Worlds Without End last night and I''ve made it about 2/3's of
> the way through. I like the book, but I'm reminded of Fearless Leader's
> commentary this summer about the direction FASA is taking shadowrun: away
> from cyberpunk. I'm beginning to come to the same conclusion, shadowrun
> seems to be evolving into another magically oriented fantasy game with
> broadswords replaced by submachine guns. **SIGH**. Terry

Err, sorry but have you read Cybertechnology ?

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 10
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:40:40 +0100
Gurth wrote:
> > I agree much with you, also since Magic in SR is fine, but it has to be
> > kept to a tool-amongst-other-tools level. All powerful magic and I'm off
> > to CP2020 or Cyberspace :-(
>
> Which is why we're doing a NERPS book that does _not_ revolve around
> magic, in fact one from which I personally would like to keep magic away
> as much as possible if it is not absolutely required.

C'mon guys stop knocking on magic. Magic is what makes the game interesting.
Magic is what gives the gameworld its incredible flavour, it is the basis
of the plot behind everything thats happening. Without it SR would be just
another crappy "Moh Gunz, Moh Chrome" munchkin game like CP2020. I have
talked to people who have played CP and they all agree that the game is
fun for about 2 weeks. The first week you get to play the solo (street
samurai) and get cybered up to your eyeballs - it is my understanding
that CP allows you to transplant you remaining meat into a machine when
you max out on cyber !!!!!! And the next week you play the net-runner
or whatever teir called and thats it.
Now I'm asking you does that compare to the incredible wealth we all
find in SR ?

Sheeesh, talk about some people being hard to please!

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 11
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@************.ORG>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 08:49:48 -0400
On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Gurth wrote:

> Not on this list, AFAIK. It seems no one has been able to convince them to
> join yet (or is this info outdated?)

Well, one of the Dark Lords on High asked me how to subscribe, and
so (of course) I told him. However, if he's actually done so, it wasn't
from the AOL account he'd asked me from.

---------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@************.org> =========---------
| "The belief that enhanced understanding will necessarily stir a |
| nation to action is one of mankind's oldest illusions." |
| -Anonymous ('Hacker's Law') |
----========== http://www.cybernothing.org/jdfalk/home.html ==========----
Message no. 12
From: Mike Loseke <mike@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 08:52:08 -0600
> C'mon guys stop knocking on magic. Magic is what makes the game interesting.
> Magic is what gives the gameworld its incredible flavour,

Sure, it makes the game interesting, I agree 101% with that. *But*, it
shouldn't be the *entire* game. Look at the number of magically active people
in the world of ShadowRun: .01% or .1%, something like that (please correct
me if I'm inaccurate). All of these people shouldn't be in constant turmoil
in *the same place* all the time.

Yes, magic is a great part of SR, but it shouldn't dominate it. Throw a good
old quiet black-op in for the sammies once in awhile.

> it is the basis of the plot behind everything thats happening.

Again it shouldn't have to be this way. Throw in the mafia, triads, yaks,
and you got plenty of plot happening right there.

--
Mike Loseke * Webmaster & | Hanlon's Razor:
System Administrator | Never attribute to malice that which is
mike@***.sc.colostate.edu | adequately explained by stupidity.
http://www.sc.colostate.edu |
Message no. 13
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 11:56:16 -0400
Mike Loseke writes:

> Sure, it makes the game interesting, I agree 101% with that. *But*, it
> shouldn't be the *entire* game. Look at the number of magically active people
> in the world of ShadowRun: .01% or .1%, something like that (please correct
> me if I'm inaccurate).

More like 1% or 2%. That's quite a few, worldwide.. If the population in
2050 is 10 billion (a reasonable guess) then that means more than 100
million magically active people around. Of course, many of them will never
become magicians, and those who do aren't universally a threat or
important.. But you've got a decent number.


> All of these people shouldn't be in constant turmoil
> in *the same place* all the time.

Realistically, no. But how closely a game conforms to "realism" depends on
the individual GM. I mean, look at movies. What are the odds that
terrorists are going to seize control at exactly the time Bruce Willis
happens to be there? Repeatedly? It's okay to stretch common sense for the
sake of plot, provided everyone in the group is cool with it.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu|
My opinions are my opinions. | "Somewhere, just out of sight, the
Please don't blame anyone else. | unicorns are gathering."
Message no. 14
From: Mike Loseke <mike@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:43:55 -0600
> Mike Loseke writes:
> > Sure, it makes the game interesting, I agree 101% with that. *But*, it
> > shouldn't be the *entire* game. Look at the number of magically active people
> > in the world of ShadowRun: .01% or .1%, something like that (please correct
> > me if I'm inaccurate).
>
> More like 1% or 2%. That's quite a few, worldwide.. If the population in
> 2050 is 10 billion (a reasonable guess) then that means more than 100
> million magically active people around. Of course, many of them will never
> become magicians, and those who do aren't universally a threat or
> important.. But you've got a decent number.

But! Didn't the world population *drop* and stay lower due to the two waves
of the HHMV (or whatever) virus? I think it's still near 5 billion, but then
again I could be mixing my game worlds up again... Please, if anyone has a
rules book (SR2) handy, could they confirm this? Otherwise I'll wait till I
get home tonite and look it up. And (not to spite you) I still think that the
percentage is under 1%.

> It's okay to stretch common sense for the
> sake of plot, provided everyone in the group is cool with it.

This is an important point. If a majority of the group (or even sometimes a
single person) feels that a story line is not cool, then the GM should make
his players happy in this sense. Unless, of course, he's a sadist and the
players are masochists...

> Blessings,

Geshundheit!

--
Mike Loseke * Webmaster & |
System Administrator | I haven't lost my mind. It's backed up
mike@***.sc.colostate.edu | on tape somewhere.
http://www.sc.colostate.edu |
Message no. 15
From: U-Gene <R3STG@***.CC.UAKRON.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 14:45:02 -0400
Jani Fikouras:
[snip -- defending magic in shadowrun]

I agree that if shadowrun lost magic it would be just a 'moh guns' game.
_BUT_ my point was I didn't want the cyberpunk, running against the corp,
watch out for the crazy street sam, git the mage, flavor to take a back
burner position to magical based campaign. Magic DOES add FLAVOR, but it
isn't supposed to be the main course :)

We are all playing SR instead of CP because of the magic factor. I just
don't want to be playing a magic based game. Make sense?

U-Gene << is hopeing thats all over with >>
Message no. 16
From: Mike Loseke <mike@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 13:14:41 -0600
> We are all playing SR instead of CP because of the magic factor. I just
> don't want to be playing a magic based game. Make sense?

Rock on, brother Beavis!

--
____North Colorado Linux User's Group: http://www.vis.colostate.edu/nclug____
Mike Loseke <mike@***.sc.colostate.edu> | Do not meddle in the affairs
SysAdmin / Webmaster -- Lory Student Center | of cats, for they are subtle
http://www.cs.colostate.edu/~loseke | and will piss on your keyboard.
Message no. 17
From: Marc A Renouf <jormung@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 15:23:18 -0400
On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Jani Fikouras wrote:

> Sheeesh, talk about some people being hard to please!

The problem I have with the current direction is that it's losing
the other half of the flavor you spoke so strongly of. Yes, without
magic, Shadowrun is another CP2020 clone. But without tech, it's an
AD&D clone. You decide which is worse.
I'm not saying magic should be eradicated from the game concept.
I'm saying that it shouldn't be the be-all and end-all of the game
concept, which it is rapdily evolving into. FASA could have chosen a
hundred different rationales for allowing Essence to drop to negative
numbers. What did they choose? Cybermancy. Magic. Even the tech is
becoming dependent on the magic, while the converse is totally untrue.
If they don't watch it, SR will become just another magic-heavy fantasy RPG.

Marc
Message no. 18
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 15:50:41 -0400
Mike Loseke writes:
> [I write:]
> >
> > More like 1% or 2%. That's quite a few, worldwide.. If the population in
> > 2050 is 10 billion (a reasonable guess) then that means more than 100
> > million magically active people around.
>
> But! Didn't the world population *drop* and stay lower due to the two waves
> of the HHMV (or whatever) virus?

Whoops! Good point. It was VITAS and VITAS-3, by the way.. HMHVV is the
Human Metahuman Vampiric Virus, and if it started causing massive drops in
the population we'd have a whole new string of problems. >8->


> [ . . . ] And (not to spite you) I still think that the
> percentage is under 1%.

That's cool. If in your game world you want the percentage to be under 1%,
then it's under 1%. In my game world it's slightly higher. (Or maybe the
player characters just tend to run into an inordinately large number of
them. Who can say?) >8->


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu|"The belief that enhanced understanding will
My opinions are my opinions. |necessarily stir a nation to action is one of
Please don't blame anyone else. |mankind's oldest illusions." - Hacker's Law
Message no. 19
From: "Andrew W. Ragland" <RAGLAN45@*****.MMC.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 16:01:39 -0500
> agree much with you, also since Magic in SR is fine, but it has to be
> kept to a tool-amongst-other-tools level. All powerful magic and I'm off
> to CP2020 or Cyberspace :-(

Pick up the first edition of Shadowland magazine from Sword of the Knight.
Cop gear, new decker gear, new vehicles, all sorts of new tinkertoyz for
the tekeez amongst us.

Andrew W. Ragland |GTW @*+(-) s++/+ a c++(++++)| _ Prayer Division|
Product Support Manager |G+ y* L e* W !N o+ K w++$ M+| /\ /\ Ariadne, |
R & M BioMetrics / BioQuant|O+$ V+ +PS- +PE- Y+ PGP @*+ | |-*-| Strengthen |
raglan45@*****.mmc.edu |5@ X+ R+++>$ h---- b+++ r+++| \/_\/ The Web! |
The Internet is a Process, not a Thing
Message no. 20
From: Mike Loseke <mike@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 15:53:10 -0600
> Pick up the first edition of Shadowland magazine from Sword of the Knight.
> Cop gear, new decker gear, new vehicles, all sorts of new tinkertoyz for
> the tekeez amongst us.

Ooohhh!! Ooohhh!! Ooohhh!! Ooohhh!! Ooohhh!!

Stuff!!! Is this the new FASA approved magazine?

BTW, does anyone know if there is such a thing as a compiled list of all the
gear that was ever contained in the KAGE magazines? I don't have a complete
collection and didn't want to miss anything!

--
Mike Loseke * Webmaster & |
System Administrator | You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor
mike@***.sc.colostate.edu | without holding on.
http://www.sc.colostate.edu | -- Dean Martin
Message no. 21
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 18:18:21 -0400
On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Mike Loseke wrote:

> Again it shouldn't have to be this way. Throw in the mafia, triads, yaks,
> and you got plenty of plot happening right there.

FASA has an organized crime sourcebook coming out sooner or later.
I think.

--Craig
Message no. 22
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 18:43:44 -0400
On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Marc A Renouf wrote:

> concept, which it is rapdily evolving into. FASA could have chosen a
> hundred different rationales for allowing Essence to drop to negative
> numbers.

Ok, let's hear 'em. :)

> What did they choose? Cybermancy. Magic. Even the tech is
> becoming dependent on the magic, while the converse is totally untrue.

I don't find this to be bad at all. You've fouled up your aura so much
that your 'soul' finds your body to be an inhospitable environment. How
else do you want to keep it from leaving except by some nasty magic?

> If they don't watch it, SR will become just another magic-heavy fantasy RPG.

For the most part, I think it's been somewhat magic top-heavy, but
with Cybertech, VR 2.0, the organized crime book, and the Threats
book, there should be enough tech and political intrigue to keep
everyone happy.

--Craig
Message no. 23
From: Cugel the Clever <cugel@**.NET>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 00:38:39 +01.0
On 5 Oct 95 at 12:40, Jani Fikouras wrote:

> C'mon guys stop knocking on magic. Magic is what makes the game
> interesting.
> Magic is what gives the gameworld its incredible flavour, it is the
> basis of the plot behind everything thats happening. Without it SR
> would be just another crappy "Moh Gunz, Moh Chrome" munchkin game
> like CP2020.

I don't have a problem with magic in general, but it seems to me that
every plot nowadays seems to revolve around magic. And it's starting
to dominate the game. Look at bug-city, Aztlan, the Tirs, Amazonia,
etc. Okay you say, but there is Cybertech. But that doesn't take away
that the shadowrun world as we know it is slowly being taken over by
magic-based powers. And the worse part IMO, is that there seem to be
good and bad guys. One of the mayor attractions to SR for my part is
that you don't have to be good or evil and that no-one around you is;
they're all various shades of gray.
Again it's no problem if some magic based country is scheming madly
behind the scenes, but I think FASA is overdoing it. The game no
longer involves countries madly fighting between eachother for
wealth, resources, etc. but are involved in magical struggles which
no-one really knows where they will lead to (not even the GM).

I think that will destroy the game eventually for me if they continue
on this path.


Martin Steffens (Cugel@**.net / bdi05626@***.rhij.nl)
The Kappamaki, a whaling research ship, was currently researching the
question: How many whales can you catch in one week?
-- (Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens)
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GLS/CS$ d-(+) s+:+ a?(26) C+(++) U P? L? E? W+ N++ o-- K? w+ O- M- V? PS+
PE- Y+ PGP t+(--) 5+++ X+++ R+(++) tv b++++ DI? D++ G+ e++ h+(!) r++ y++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 24
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 17:36:45 -0700
I have to agree that I'm getting a little sick of magic being as
powerful as it is. Not that it's powerful per se, but that it's
getting to be much more powerful than tech. Who would you rather
have pissed off at you, Fuchi or Harlequinn? Corps are not the
"big guys" anymore, it's the massive magic people. It's turning
into a game like Mage where all the REAL important stuff is magic-based,
and the tech stuff is just sorta "there". The big threat is Horrors
coming back to the world, not nuclear war or a new VITAS plague.
I like magic in the game, but it's getting a little extreme, and it
seems a lot more is being done to develop magic in the game (of course
it's easier to make up magic stuff than it is to develop plausible
tech). I would prefer a more balanced world. MHO, YMMV etc

-E
Message no. 25
From: Jason Ustica <usticaj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 19:16:42 -0700
I too agree that magic is becoming a bit overpowering in SR. When I first
got into SR (I still have the old blue book), I flipped through it and
thought "Wow, guns, cyberware, computers, ...and *magic* too!". Now every
major plotline being introduced to SR is based on magic. I liked the
balance struck in the older books. Now the major theme is _escalation_.
Magic escalation is _the_ plot of the current SR world. The definite last
straw for me will be if magic is introduced into the Matrix. If this
happens, I will seriously question whether or not I will continue to play
SR.

Now, before I get roasted for that, I want to say that ANY roleplaying game
where the players would rather ignore what the publishers create than use the
material is SERIOUSLY flawed. SR is not **&*, where players can choose
from many settings and use the one they like most. FASA has given us ONE
setting to choose from, like it or not.

Some will say "Use only what you like! It's your game!". Sorry, but not
in my wildest dreams could I think up a world so detailed and rich as the
SR world. So I have come to be reliant upon what FASA publishes. If I
pick and choose what I use in my game, it is no longer SR. It is "my
game" using SR mechanics. This is clearly not what I wanted when I bought
the game. I wanted a coherent setting, not something I had to pick over
to find the good points.

I suppose I feet betrayed more than anything else. I looked at CP2020,
but I didn't like the system, nor did I like the setting. In SR, I saw
much diversity. With so many possibilities, I felt SR would be a game
that would hold my interest for a long time. So I invested in the game. I
bought many of the books. The first few supplements assisted the setting.
They were rich with ideas (the Seattle sourcebook was *brimming* with
plot ideas). The latest supplements? They dictate the setting. They don't
have ideas. They have *an* idea: magic. Magic dominating EVERYTHING. I
bought this game because it was divesre in ideas. Now it's focus is much
too narrow. Like reading a long book that has a terrible ending, I feel as
though I have wasted much time and money with SR only to have it end up
as **&* with "big gunz".

My thoughts still aren't set on this issue yet, but I do know that the
current deluge of magic upon the SR world does not sit well with me. I
view it as a serious deviation from the original spirit of the game.

--
* Jason Ustica * Coming to you from Lancaster, CA * GO L.A. KINGS!! *
* Email: usticaj@****.com * WWW: http://www.av.qnet.com/~usticaj *
Message no. 26
From: Matt DeBarger <Neuromanc@***.COM>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 23:42:11 -0400
This too much magic in SR is kinda silly. if you believe magic is too
powerful, then tone it down in your campaign. Anything published for a game
is merely a guidline for the GM and players to use. The GM decides how
everything works, and what exists. In my world, sleep spell has a higher
drain code, and there are free spirits (LOA actually, since we played in New
Orleans) who feed off of foci. (Ooooo noce spell lock... YUMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!)

Well thats my opinion, you may or may not use it (just like rule books)

Chester/ Neuromanc
Message no. 27
From: Andre' Selmer <031SEA@******.WITS.AC.ZA>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 08:40:58 +0100
}Terry Amburgey wrote:
}> I picked up Worlds Without End last night and I''ve made it about 2/3's of
}> the way through. I like the book, but I'm reminded of Fearless Leader's
}> commentary this summer about the direction FASA is taking shadowrun: away
}> from cyberpunk. I'm beginning to come to the same conclusion, shadowrun
}> seems to be evolving into another magically oriented fantasy game with
}> broadswords replaced by submachine guns. **SIGH**. Terry
}
} Err, sorry but have you read Cybertechnology ?
}
Yes, magic and technology. The magic is required to keep the
flesh alive so that it can control the technology that reminds the
individual of himself so that the magic can work. A bit circular, but
my point is made.

I agree, although magic is an intergral part of the system, it is
fast becoming more prominent. In our games we used to have a single
hermetic, due to the increases that our GM has placed in magic we
have had to get another mana user to survive. At the present rate I
can see, hasta le^ vesta Street Sam. All that the sam is there to do
now is a)try to kill the other mage b)drag the unconscious mage to
safty c) act as back up... <Apologies to all, currently in gripe
mode>


Andre'

+-----------------------------------------------------------+
|It has been said that the they who stay in the shadows have|
|no soul, no depth, no moral conviction. But how can one |
|say this when, it is they who have lost themselves in the |
|search utopia. We are the realists, we work from the |
|unseen corners of society, we do what no another has the |
|strength to do, with our cybered bodies and magic extreme |
|we prevent the corruption from spreading and destroying |
|your dreams, not through power, but bullets, sweat, tears |
|and blood. All of this we do for your sake, and few nuyen. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+

-
|_|_
/ \ \ /~\/~~~~
| | | - \_/ + THUMP...Thump..thump = Boom ?
| | |
\___/
Message no. 28
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 10:21:45 +0100
Mike Loseke wrote:
> Stuff!!! Is this the new FASA approved magazine?

Yes.

> BTW, does anyone know if there is such a thing as a compiled list of all the
> gear that was ever contained in the KAGE magazines? I don't have a complete
> collection and didn't want to miss anything!

The is this incredibly great list of SR equipment floating around the net.
Its got all the stuff from all the supplements (Germany sourcebook and all
newer stuff are not in it), all the CaGe stuff and many CP toys. If you
cant find it I'd be glad to mail it to ya.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 29
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 12:14:06 +0100
Jani Fikouras said on 5 Oct 95...

> C'mon guys stop knocking on magic. Magic is what makes the game
> interesting.

I don't deny that, what I do think is that too much magic will make it
less interesting. Magic should definitely stay in SR, but not to the
exclusion of the cyberpunk-side of the game.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here we go again...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 30
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 12:47:41 +0100
S.F. Eley wrote:
>
> Mike Loseke writes:
>
> > Sure, it makes the game interesting, I agree 101% with that. *But*, it
> > shouldn't be the *entire* game. Look at the number of magically active people
> > in the world of ShadowRun: .01% or .1%, something like that (please correct
> > me if I'm inaccurate).
>
> More like 1% or 2%. That's quite a few, worldwide.. If the population in
> 2050 is 10 billion (a reasonable guess) then that means more than 100
> million magically active people around. Of course, many of them will never
> become magicians, and those who do aren't universally a threat or
> important.. But you've got a decent number.

The official numbers are 1% for magicains and .1% for full magicians. However
this number is quite old and I expect that the actual percentage has risen over
the last decade. As for the world population, its a lot less than that. As others
acuratly pointed out the various VITAS plagues made sure that we dont reach the
10 billion.

> > All of these people shouldn't be in constant turmoil
> > in *the same place* all the time.

It depends, economic and social circumstances may have forced a concentration
of such individuals in certain areas.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 31
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 12:14:06 +0100
Marc A Renouf said on 5 Oct 95...

> FASA could have chosen a
> hundred different rationales for allowing Essence to drop to negative
> numbers. What did they choose? Cybermancy. Magic. Even the tech is
> becoming dependent on the magic, while the converse is totally untrue.

I think that the choice of magic in this case makes sense -- magic would
be a good option to keep a dead body alive. I wouldn't want SR to slip
into an all-magic RPG set in a near-future world, but cybermancy makes
sense within the game background, IMHO.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here we go again...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 32
From: Mike Loseke <mike@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 08:00:01 -0600
Jani writes:
> The official numbers are 1% for magicains and .1% for full magicians. However
> this number is quite old and I expect that the actual percentage has risen over
> the last decade. As for the world population, its a lot less than that. As others
> acuratly pointed out the various VITAS plagues made sure that we dont reach the
> 10 billion.

You are correct, the number is 1% (Grimthingy II). They also discuss that this
number may be rising with every generation and that the current number of
competent and trained magicians is from 3 to 4 million. I guess I'll have to
rethink my position. I was just using those numbers to try to convince myself
(more than anyone else) that magic *wasn't* as powerful and as widespread as
FASA is trying to make it. That much magic kind of ruins it for me, for the
reasons many people are stating right now.

I couldn't find any real numbers on the world population though... Anyone
find anything on this?

--
Mike Loseke * Webmaster & |
System Administrator | F u cn rd ths u cnt spl wrth a dm!
mike@***.sc.colostate.edu |
http://www.sc.colostate.edu |
Message no. 33
From: Mike Loseke <mike@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 08:02:53 -0600
Jani writes:
> The is this incredibly great list of SR equipment floating around the net.
> Its got all the stuff from all the supplements (Germany sourcebook and all
> newer stuff are not in it), all the CaGe stuff and many CP toys. If you
> cant find it I'd be glad to mail it to ya.

I think you're referring to Wordman's list of old which the 'Folks at FASA'
asked him to stop distributing across the net. They claim that it violated
their copyrights, or some such nonsense.

If the one you speak of is different, please, bless me with your bytes! ;-)

--
Mike Loseke * Webmaster & |
System Administrator | F u cn rd ths u cnt spl wrth a dm!
mike@***.sc.colostate.edu |
http://www.sc.colostate.edu |
Message no. 34
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 15:08:09 +0100
Mike Loseke wrote:
> Jani writes:
> > The is this incredibly great list of SR equipment floating around the net.
> > Its got all the stuff from all the supplements (Germany sourcebook and all
> > newer stuff are not in it), all the CaGe stuff and many CP toys. If you
> > cant find it I'd be glad to mail it to ya.
>
> I think you're referring to Wordman's list of old which the 'Folks at FASA'
> asked him to stop distributing across the net. They claim that it violated
> their copyrights, or some such nonsense.
>
> If the one you speak of is different, please, bless me with your bytes! ;-)

Naw thats the one, did they really say that ? Hmmm, Wordman's list is
much better than the one in FoF. It looks better its much more comprehensive
and it has all the juicy details. FASA bring out a third edition and
incorporate all these usefull litle things in one big main rulebook.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 35
From: Gallas William <gallas@**.EC-LYON.FR>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 16:24:14 MET
In fact, what you call magic ecalation is just some background. The one that
explains the world but I don't think it is for the players to deal with.
You think that the SR world's base is technology but it's the contrary.
Magic is the world (I think in SR magic is linked to life) and technology is
what human being brings (in opposition to the immortal elves).
I don't think magic is taking a place too high, you think so only because it
interests the high elves and because of their importance in the SR world.
It's the same as in the beginnig of the game (the one with the blue cover) but
you didn't know it. I mean, just think about what do common people know about
these plots. In my campain, my players don't read the SR books and I think
it's the better way to really see if magic is too important and it's not.

Cobra.
Message no. 36
From: Helge Diernaes <ecocide@***.CBS.DK>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 19:15:18 +0100
> > C'mon guys stop knocking on magic. Magic is what makes the game interesting.
> > Magic is what gives the gameworld its incredible flavour,
>
> Sure, it makes the game interesting, I agree 101% with that. *But*, it
> shouldn't be the *entire* game. Look at the number of magically active people
> in the world of ShadowRun: .01% or .1%, something like that (please correct
> me if I'm inaccurate). All of these people shouldn't be in constant turmoil
> in *the same place* all the time.
>
> Yes, magic is a great part of SR, but it shouldn't dominate it. Throw a good
> old quiet black-op in for the sammies once in awhile.
>

Exactly my thoughts.

--
Regards,

Sil



___________
___________________________________________
___________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________________
Helge Diernaes | "I'm going slightly mad..."
ecocide@***.cbs.dk | Freddy Mercury, Queen
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
-----------
Message no. 37
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 15:28:18 -0400
Jani Fikouras writes:

> Naw thats the one, did they really say that ? Hmmm, Wordman's list is
> much better than the one in FoF. It looks better its much more comprehensive
> and it has all the juicy details. FASA bring out a third edition and
> incorporate all these usefull litle things in one big main rulebook.

?? The only reason I use Wordman's list is because it's cheaper for me to
print a Postscript document than make Xerox copies. His list is good, but
it's also two years old and doesn't include the toys from FoF, CorpSec, or
any of the other recent sourcebooks. And on a quick skim of both lists I
couldn't find anything from Wordman's list that wasn't in the FoF one. And
except that Wordman's weapons list footnotes which guns have smartlink,
recoil compensation, etc., the stats are the same in both lists.

About the third edition -- don't even say it!! Second Edition WORKS, and I
do not want to see Shadowrun fall prey to "edition-itis" like so many other
role-playing games have. Paranoia and Call of Cthulhu are both up to 5th
Edition now.. Neither of these games is complicated enough to warrant that.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu| "There are two parties -- a right wing
My opinions are my opinions. | party, and a very right wing party."
Please don't blame anyone else. | - S. Arrowsmith
Message no. 38
From: Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*******.CSE.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 15:40:24 -0400
On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, S.F. Eley wrote:

> ?? The only reason I use Wordman's list is because it's cheaper for me to
> print a Postscript document than make Xerox copies. His list is good, but
> it's also two years old and doesn't include the toys from FoF, CorpSec, or

That's because when FASA first came out with their net-policy, Wordman
asked them about the list and they said it was a little more than they
were comfortable with.

> role-playing games have. Paranoia and Call of Cthulhu are both up to 5th
> Edition now.. Neither of these games is complicated enough to warrant that.

Paranoia isn't _really_ 5th edition. They just said it was so good, they
had to skip two editions. :)

--Craig
Message no. 39
From: "Andrew W. Ragland" <RAGLAN45@*****.MMC.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 15:34:56 -0500
>Stuff!!! Is this the new FASA approved magazine?

Shadowland is the new magazine that FASA has licensed to replace the late
Ka*Ge. I am told that Mike Mulvihill is reviewing all the articles before
giving approval for publication.

Andrew W. Ragland |GTW @*+(-) s++/+ a c++(++++)| _ Prayer Division|
Product Support Manager |G+ y* L e* W !N o+ K w++$ M+| /\ /\ Ariadne, |
R & M BioMetrics / BioQuant|O+$ V+ +PS- +PE- Y+ PGP @*+ | |-*-| Strengthen |
raglan45@*****.mmc.edu |5@ X+ R+++>$ h---- b+++ r+++| \/_\/ The Web! |
The Internet is a Process, not a Thing
Message no. 40
From: "Andrew W. Ragland" <RAGLAN45@*****.MMC.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 15:37:14 -0500
> The is this incredibly great list of SR equipment floating around the net.
>Its got all the stuff from all the supplements (Germany sourcebook and all
>newer stuff are not in it), all the CaGe stuff and many CP toys. If you
>cant find it I'd be glad to mail it to ya.

Ship me a copy. Thanks.

Andrew W. Ragland |GTW @*+(-) s++/+ a c++(++++)| _ Prayer Division|
Product Support Manager |G+ y* L e* W !N o+ K w++$ M+| /\ /\ Ariadne, |
R & M BioMetrics / BioQuant|O+$ V+ +PS- +PE- Y+ PGP @*+ | |-*-| Strengthen |
raglan45@*****.mmc.edu |5@ X+ R+++>$ h---- b+++ r+++| \/_\/ The Web! |
The Internet is a Process, not a Thing
Message no. 41
From: Cuckoo Clock <cukoo@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 14:33:27 -0700
>> The is this incredibly great list of SR equipment floating around the net.
>>Its got all the stuff from all the supplements (Germany sourcebook and all
>>newer stuff are not in it), all the CaGe stuff and many CP toys. If you
>>cant find it I'd be glad to mail it to ya.
>
>Ship me a copy. Thanks.
>
Me too if you would.
Message no. 42
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 19:57:46 -0700
>lot of "magic and elves etc is the basis of the world"<

So, but you're basically saying the same thing we are, i.e. that
magic takes up too important a position in SR. Trying to justify it
by saying that that's how it *is* doesn't do anything; the
rationalization in the fictional world doesn't matter, the point is
that, in some opinions, SR AS A GAME (and it IS a game) is putting
too heavy an emphasis on magic. I don't care if it's history or
newfound knowledge or both or a combo, there's too much of it. IMHO.

-E
Message no. 43
From: Tim Kerby <tkerby@***.NET>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 23:56:57 +0600
> My thoughts still aren't set on this issue yet, but I do know that the
> current deluge of magic upon the SR world does not sit well with me. I
> view it as a serious deviation from the original spirit of the game.
> --
> * Jason Ustica * Coming to you from Lancaster, CA * GO L.A. KINGS!! *
> * Email: usticaj@****.com * WWW: http://www.av.qnet.com/~usticaj *

My opinion as well, and from the posts, seems to be the general consensus.
So who in the hell is doing marketing for FASA anyway? Don't they do customer
surveys? We should all flood their E-mail box with letters of concern, or
start a petition.

____TIM KERBY___|=============================================================
tkerby@***.net |"Never relax. Your run might be over, but someone, somewhere,
drekhead@***.com| is just starting his and the target could be you."
________________|
Message no. 44
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 11:02:20 +0100
Mike Loseke said on 6 Oct 95...

> You are correct, the number is 1% (Grimthingy II). They also discuss that this
> number may be rising with every generation and that the current number of
> competent and trained magicians is from 3 to 4 million.
>
> I couldn't find any real numbers on the world population though... Anyone
> find anything on this?

If .1% of the world population is a fully-trained magician, and there are
3 to 4 million of them (in 2053), it's easy enough to calculate that there
are 3 to 4 _b_illion people on tthe planet. Wich would mean that VITAS cut
a _huge_ chunk out of the population, a chunk that never grew back for
some strange reason...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The Serious Lemon Squad
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 45
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 11:02:20 +0100
Tim Kerby said on 6 Oct 95...

> My opinion as well, and from the posts, seems to be the general consensus.
> So who in the hell is doing marketing for FASA anyway? Don't they do customer
> surveys? We should all flood their E-mail box with letters of concern, or
> start a petition.

Or it could be that the general population at large (what do you mean, "is
there anyone _else_ out there, then?" :) holds different opinions about
these things than most people here do... If this is the case (and I'm not
saying it is or isn't) and FASA's market research has been conducted
off-net entirely they would never know about our feelings, would they?

But it might be a nice idea to email them about this...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The Serious Lemon Squad
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5 X R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 46
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 19:55:32 +0930
Gurth wrote:
>
> If .1% of the world population is a fully-trained magician, and there are
> 3 to 4 million of them (in 2053), it's easy enough to calculate that there
> are 3 to 4 _b_illion people on tthe planet. Wich would mean that VITAS cut
> a _huge_ chunk out of the population, a chunk that never grew back for
> some strange reason...

Or a bigger chunk that did... :)

More seriously, I recall a figure from somewhere that the world population
was about 3 billion. Now, given that the human race is now AWARE of the
dangers of overpopulation, it's just possible that some measures were put
into effect in some places, after a few handy plagues and wars wiped out
large chunks of the populace.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 47
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 13:20:12 -0400
> If .1% of the world population is a fully-trained magician, and there are
> 3 to 4 million of them (in 2053), it's easy enough to calculate that there
> are 3 to 4 _b_illion people on tthe planet. Wich would mean that VITAS cut
> a _huge_ chunk out of the population, a chunk that never grew back for
> some strange reason...

That's a smaller world population than I would have figured.. In any case,
the "strange reason" I'd guess at first would be a declining birthrate. The
birthrate usually rises in times of stability, prosperity, and optimism.
You can draw your own conclusions about the converse. Think about it: would
YOU want to raise a kid in the world of Shadowrun? And could you accept the
possibility that the kid may not even be born human?

That, coupled with increased violence worldwide, may be enough to lead to a
negative growth rate until things stabilize.


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu|"Much of the economic decay of south-east
My opinions are my opinions. | Asia...is undoubtedly due to a heedless and
Please don't blame anyone else. | shameful neglect of trees."-E.F. Schumacher
Message no. 48
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 10:09:27 +0930
S.F. Eley wrote:
>
> That's a smaller world population than I would have figured.. In any case,
> the "strange reason" I'd guess at first would be a declining birthrate.
The
> birthrate usually rises in times of stability, prosperity, and optimism.
> You can draw your own conclusions about the converse. Think about it: would
> YOU want to raise a kid in the world of Shadowrun? And could you accept the
> possibility that the kid may not even be born human?
>
> That, coupled with increased violence worldwide, may be enough to lead to a
> negative growth rate until things stabilize.

VITAS... :)

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 49
From: "S.F. Eley" <gt6877c@*****.GATECH.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 22:38:58 -0400
Robert Watkins writes:

> > That, coupled with increased violence worldwide, may be enough to lead to a
> > negative growth rate until things stabilize.
>
> VITAS... :)

No kidding. I know about VITAS. The question I was attempting to answer
was, what KEPT the world's population so low after the plagues, which
happened several decades ago and could otherwise have been compensated for?


Blessings,

_TNX._

--
Stephen F. Eley (-) gt6877c@*****.gatech.edu )-( Student Pagan Community
http://wc62.residence.gatech.edu|Eley's Indicator of Truth:
my opinions are my opinions. |"Having more questions than you started
Please don't blame anyone else. | with is a good sign you're onto something."
Message no. 50
From: Eve Forward <lutra@******.COM>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 20:03:30 -0700
>>No kidding. I know about VITAS. The question I was attempting to answer
was, what KEPT the world's population so low after the plagues, which
happened several decades ago and could otherwise have been compensated for?
<<

I kinda got the impression that the world of 205- is still rather
shaken; big chunks of it have gone "feral" with new rainforests and
magic and NA enclaves and Elf enclaves where there used to be strip
malls and tract housing. Most of the big cities; NY, LA, Seattle, etc,
are still there, but what about all those smaller places; many could have
been wiped out by VITAS and no-one's bothering to resettle. Which leads
me to wonder about those places that in our day have such a high population
density; Bangledesh etc? How hard did VITAS hit them? How about the
Awakening? What do they look like now?
Maybe the population isn't back up because there aren't as many people
going out and starting a family becuase there's no good place to do that.
Maybe with all the simsense stuff, people don't bother to make babies the
old fashioned way as much. Maybe the Awakening threw the religious right
into such turmoil that such things as contraception and abortion are
the norm. Maybe the elves put something in the world's water supply to
keep humans from having babies so that the race will die out.

aw, hell, I dunno.

-E
Message no. 51
From: David Herr <dherr@********.NET>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 00:01:00 EDT
On Sat, 7 Oct 1995 00:00:56 +0100 you wrote:

>>> The is this incredibly great list of SR equipment floating around the net.
>>>Its got all the stuff from all the supplements (Germany sourcebook and all
>>>newer stuff are not in it), all the CaGe stuff and many CP toys. If you
>>>cant find it I'd be glad to mail it to ya.
>>
>>Ship me a copy. Thanks.
>>
>Me too if you would.
>
I'll add my request to the pile!

This would be great, I'm working on a new char gen! (yeah), but its
for os/2 (so go by os/2 if you want to use it! 8^)
Message no. 52
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 16:00:58 +0930
S.F. Eley wrote:
>
> Robert Watkins writes:
>
> > > That, coupled with increased violence worldwide, may be enough to lead to a
> > > negative growth rate until things stabilize.
> >
> > VITAS... :)
>
> No kidding. I know about VITAS. The question I was attempting to answer
> was, what KEPT the world's population so low after the plagues, which
> happened several decades ago and could otherwise have been compensated for?
>

Nothing kept the world's population low. Roughly, we can double the world's
population every 30 or so years. Given the unrest most of the world is in
in SR (not to mention the state of the environment), that figure is
probably too low.

So, if VITAS happened around 40 years ago, and the world's population NOW
is around 3 billion, all that you need to assume is that VITAS knocked the
population down to around 1.5 billion. *shrug*

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
*** Finger me for my geek code ***
Message no. 53
From: Walter Stim <wstim%avma27@*************.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 12:00:03 CDT
Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>wrote
>
> The is this incredibly great list of SR equipment floating around the net.
>Its got all the stuff from all the supplements (Germany sourcebook and all
>newer stuff are not in it), all the CaGe stuff and many CP toys. If you
>cant find it I'd be glad to mail it to ya.

Count me in for a copy
Message no. 54
From: Gallas William <gallas@**.EC-LYON.FR>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 21:29:04 MET
On Sat, 7 Oct 1995 00:00:56 +0100 you wrote:

>The is this incredibly great list of SR equipment floating around the net.
>Its got all the stuff from all the supplements (Germany sourcebook and all
>newer stuff are not in it), all the CaGe stuff and many CP toys. If you
>cant find it I'd be glad to mail it to ya.

I'm interested too.
Cobra.
Message no. 55
From: Jesse Trammel <jtrammel@******.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 17:15:02 -0400
Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>wrote
>
> The is this incredibly great list of SR equipment floating around the net.
>Its got all the stuff from all the supplements (Germany sourcebook and all
>newer stuff are not in it), all the CaGe stuff and many CP toys. If you
>cant find it I'd be glad to mail it to ya.
I'd like a copy too.
Thanks,
Jesse
jtrammel@******.muohio.edu
Message no. 56
From: Shad Owens <shadow@******.LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 16:07:02 -0700
> >Ship me a copy. Thanks.
> >
> Me too if you would.

Me too! Me too!

SHAD OWens
Message no. 57
From: Doug Miller <enigma@********.JPL.NASA.GOV>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 17:20:07 +0000
On Sun, 8 Oct 1995, Jesse Trammel wrote:

> Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>wrote
> >
> > The is this incredibly great list of SR equipment floating around the net.
> >Its got all the stuff from all the supplements (Germany sourcebook and all
> >newer stuff are not in it), all the CaGe stuff and many CP toys. If you
> >cant find it I'd be glad to mail it to ya.
> I'd like a copy too.
> Thanks,
> Jesse
> jtrammel@******.muohio.edu
>

It seems that quite a number of people are intrested in this list.
Perhaps someone would be willing to post it in their web page.....?

Doug
Message no. 58
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 15:11:06 +0100
Craig S Dohmen wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Marc A Renouf wrote:
>
> > concept, which it is rapdily evolving into. FASA could have chosen a
> > hundred different rationales for allowing Essence to drop to negative
> > numbers.
>
> Ok, let's hear 'em. :)
>
> > What did they choose? Cybermancy. Magic. Even the tech is
> > becoming dependent on the magic, while the converse is totally untrue.
>
> I don't find this to be bad at all. You've fouled up your aura so much
> that your 'soul' finds your body to be an inhospitable environment. How
> else do you want to keep it from leaving except by some nasty magic?

I too think that its a very good explanation, after all the whole essense
thing is strongly metaphysical so I think that a metaphysical explanation
of negative essense mechanics is rather apropriate.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 59
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 15:30:10 +0100
Mike Loseke wrote:
> You are correct, the number is 1% (Grimthingy II). They also discuss that this
> number may be rising with every generation and that the current number of
> competent and trained magicians is from 3 to 4 million. I guess I'll have to
> rethink my position. I was just using those numbers to try to convince myself
> (more than anyone else) that magic *wasn't* as powerful and as widespread as
> FASA is trying to make it. That much magic kind of ruins it for me, for the
> reasons many people are stating right now.

I realise that, nevertheless as others already pointed out all this
mondo magic is *very* high level stuff. No player character should ever get
the chance to mingle with Ehran and co. That means that we as players and
GMs know these things, but this knowledge is totally irrelevant as far as
the streets are concerned.

> I couldn't find any real numbers on the world population though... Anyone
> find anything on this?

I have seen such a figure in one of the sourcebooks and I think that it
was about 3 bil, anyway I am not quite sure.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 60
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 15:52:27 +0100
S.F. Eley wrote:
> Jani Fikouras writes:
>
> > Naw thats the one, did they really say that ? Hmmm, Wordman's list is
> > much better than the one in FoF. It looks better its much more comprehensive
> > and it has all the juicy details. FASA bring out a third edition and
> > incorporate all these usefull litle things in one big main rulebook.
>
> ?? The only reason I use Wordman's list is because it's cheaper for me to
> print a Postscript document than make Xerox copies. His list is good, but
> it's also two years old and doesn't include the toys from FoF, CorpSec, or
> any of the other recent sourcebooks.

FoF stuff is in it. And as for the newer stuff, well they arent in FoF
either :) BTW does the FoF list contain all the stuuf from the erratas ?
You know stuff like fetish foci etc.

> And on a quick skim of both lists I
> couldn't find anything from Wordman's list that wasn't in the FoF one. And
> except that Wordman's weapons list footnotes which guns have smartlink,
> recoil compensation, etc., the stats are the same in both lists.

Well I'd say that this is reason enough.

> About the third edition -- don't even say it!! Second Edition WORKS, and I
> do not want to see Shadowrun fall prey to "edition-itis" like so many other
> role-playing games have. Paranoia and Call of Cthulhu are both up to 5th
> Edition now.. Neither of these games is complicated enough to warrant that.

I must admit that I would very much like to have a *single* book that
has all the nececery rules. The way things are today you can forget nearly
everything thats in SRII as far as rigging,decking and to some extend magic
is concerned. Not to mention that when browsing through the equipment available
you need to have at least 10 sourcebooks around you.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 61
From: Mike Loseke <mike@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 09:03:41 -0600
> It seems that quite a number of people are intrested in this list.
> Perhaps someone would be willing to post it in their web page.....?

Ah, herein lies the problem: FASA has asked Wordman not to distribute this list
anymore, and he has reluctantly agreed. He is also trying to discourage the
redistribution of the list via FTP or other means.

--
Mike Loseke * Webmaster & |
System Administrator | Life is like a similie.
mike@***.sc.colostate.edu |
http://www.sc.colostate.edu |
Message no. 62
From: Mike Loseke <mike@***.SC.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 09:07:05 -0600
> If .1% of the world population is a fully-trained magician, and there are
> 3 to 4 million of them (in 2053), it's easy enough to calculate that there
> are 3 to 4 _b_illion people on tthe planet. Wich would mean that VITAS cut
> a _huge_ chunk out of the population, a chunk that never grew back for
> some strange reason...

That 3 to 4 million magicians number is a little misleading. I'm sure that it
doesn't count for all of the people who don't even know that they are
magically active in any way. I'd set the number around 5-6 billion. (I think
that FASA was trying to keep the population the same as it is today.)

--
Mike Loseke * Webmaster & |
System Administrator | Life is like a similie.
mike@***.sc.colostate.edu |
http://www.sc.colostate.edu |
Message no. 63
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 16:23:53 +0100
Gurth wrote:
> Mike Loseke said on 6 Oct 95...
>
> > You are correct, the number is 1% (Grimthingy II). They also discuss that this
> > number may be rising with every generation and that the current number of
> > competent and trained magicians is from 3 to 4 million.
> >
> > I couldn't find any real numbers on the world population though... Anyone
> > find anything on this?
>
> If .1% of the world population is a fully-trained magician, and there are
> 3 to 4 million of them (in 2053), it's easy enough to calculate that there
> are 3 to 4 _b_illion people on tthe planet. Wich would mean that VITAS cut
> a _huge_ chunk out of the population, a chunk that never grew back for
> some strange reason...

Well, How it came to pass clearly says that first world countries had
a much easier time coping with the virus. So I think that this is not
that unrealistic.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 64
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 17:30:23 +0100
S.F. Eley wrote:
>
> > If .1% of the world population is a fully-trained magician, and there are
> > 3 to 4 million of them (in 2053), it's easy enough to calculate that there
> > are 3 to 4 _b_illion people on tthe planet. Wich would mean that VITAS cut
> > a _huge_ chunk out of the population, a chunk that never grew back for
> > some strange reason...
>
> That's a smaller world population than I would have figured.. In any case,
> the "strange reason" I'd guess at first would be a declining birthrate.
The
> birthrate usually rises in times of stability, prosperity, and optimism.
> You can draw your own conclusions about the converse. Think about it: would
> YOU want to raise a kid in the world of Shadowrun? And could you accept the
> possibility that the kid may not even be born human?

This is very interesting, I think that a lot of people would definitely think
twice before deciding to make themselves a baby. I guess that the first
one to come up with a test that tells you what your baby is going to be will
probably be a very rich man.

--
GCS d s+: p1 a-->? C++++ UA++$S++L+++>++++ L+++ E--- W+ N+ w(--) M-- !V(--)
PS+ PE Y+ PGP-- @*++ 5++ X++ R+++ tv++ b++ G+++ e++ h+(*) r

"In my mind I see the matrix, and in the matrix is held the power. The lock
to the matrix is my will, and in the matrix my will becomes the power."
Message no. 65
From: HALOWEEN JACK <SBC3KCB@*******.AC.UK>
Subject: shadowrun => earthdawn
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 11:02:16 GMT
has anyone got any ideas for the stats an obsidiman or tskrang would
have in shadowrun.as this could be an interesting idea as at the
moment the horrors are about to appear.
in the european creatures book there are references to sprites or
windlings from earthdawn. so why not the obsidiman.
Message no. 66
From: CHRIS BUSKE <CBUSKE@********.ON.CA>
Subject: Re: shadowrun ==> earthdawn
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:15:22 -0400
> Craig S Dohmen wrote:
> > On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Marc A Renouf wrote:
> > > What did they choose? Cybermancy. Magic. Even the tech is
> > > becoming dependent on the magic, while the converse is totally untrue.
> >
> > I don't find this to be bad at all. You've fouled up your aura so much
> > that your 'soul' finds your body to be an inhospitable environment. How
> > else do you want to keep it from leaving except by some nasty magic?
>
> I too think that its a very good explanation, after all the whole essense
> thing is strongly metaphysical so I think that a metaphysical explanation
> of negative essense mechanics is rather apropriate.
>
now i just got cybertechnology on the weekend. i agree with the
metaphysical link. but my thought is, if space has no (or very
different magic, metaphysics ... 8-) what about char's that where
born/raised and received their _ware off planet. would they have to go
through the cybermancy rights to go below 0 essence, or something
else to go dirtside or will they be forever space char's.

chris buske
<cbuske@********.on.ca>
Message no. 67
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: shadowrun => earthdawn
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 12:17:38 +0100
HALOWEEN JACK said on 10 Oct 95...

> has anyone got any ideas for the stats an obsidiman or tskrang would
> have in shadowrun.as this could be an interesting idea as at the
> moment the horrors are about to appear.
> in the european creatures book there are references to sprites or
> windlings from earthdawn. so why not the obsidiman.

Let's see, how was this explained on the ED list ack when I subscribed to
it? Modern industry, I think... Obsidimen come from a life rock as I
suppose you know. Think about this: what would happen if someone built a
(coal)mine or a stone quarry (sp?) in its place...?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Feel free, but don't feel too comfortable
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about shadowrun ==> earthdawn, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!