Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Robert Hudson <r_hudson2@*****.MSN.COM>
Subject:	Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Tue, 2 Jun 1998 06:27:22 -0500

Message no. 1 At 7:33 PM June 1, Alfredo Alves wrote:

>The reason for all this (primarily) is: What do you think Fashion is like
>in 205x? It seems to me that most of the stuff in SR is not too much of
>a departure from modern fashion ...

If you look at fashion trends over the last two hundred years or so, you
ought to find that they fall into a recognizable set of patterns:
"rebellious youth" fashions; "the executive look" fashions; the
restrained
fashions of the wealthy elite; and so on.

All things being considered, the "executive business look" changes the
slowest of any of them - many major commpanies still required their salesmen
to wear topcoats and fedoras well into the 1970's for example. It's not
unreasonable, given the rate at which fashion moves in cycles, that
something akin to the 1990 business executive look might be back in vogue -
or never really left at all.

Casual wear seems to move quickly, but tends to be grouped by geography as
much as anything else. Seattle, for example, is simply too wet for some
fashions to be viable as every-day wear. It'd be too cool for others, and
with the acid rain and such added in by the megacorps you'd want fashions
that left little or no skin exposed if you were outdoors.

Robert Hudson

From:	Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:05:27 -0400

Message no. 2 >At 7:33 PM June 1, Alfredo Alves wrote:
>All things being considered, the "executive business look" changes the
>slowest of any of them - many major commpanies still required their salesmen
>to wear topcoats and fedoras well into the 1970's for example. It's not
>unreasonable, given the rate at which fashion moves in cycles, that
>something akin to the 1990 business executive look might be back in vogue -
>or never really left at all.

Men's dress- and formal-wear hasn't changed significantly for about a
century. Maybe the introduction of the clip bow tie sent some ripples, and
maybe the tails are cut exactly the same, but a tux has been a tux for a
very long time, at least relative to rest of the fashion industry.

Oh, also, Robert mentioned categories of clothing, including "rebellious
youth". I think the rebel clothes side of fashion tends to have several
sides these days. For example, in the 80's you had new wave and punk at
about the same time. Granted, new wave wasn't _politically_ rebellious, but
it still strayed pretty far from the main stream. Those two were split
mostly by geography. These days, there seems to be a split by age as well.
For example, while the "hip gangster wanna-be" look is mostly worn by kids,
the latex/fetish look (for lack of a better term) tends to be older.

There is probably crossover during transitions, too. For example, in the
50's the rebel look was black leather. In the 60's, the rebel look became
hippie, but I'm sure there were still die hard "supporters" of the 50's
rebel look (like Hell's Angels, for example).

As far as Shadowrun goes, you almost have to figure that 2057 is going to
feature some serious 1957 retro fashion. Poodle skirts and all that. Cars
with fins. You just know it would happen. Music, probably, too.

Wordman

From:	Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Wed, 3 Jun 1998 02:46:20 EDT

Message no. 3 In a message dated 98-06-02 23:06:18 EDT, you write:

> As far as Shadowrun goes, you almost have to figure that 2057 is going to
> feature some serious 1957 retro fashion. Poodle skirts and all that. Cars
> with fins. You just know it would happen. Music, probably, too.

You are a sick man... how you could inflict that on _anyone_.... ::shudders::

Haven't said that, I don't think you're thinking this through. Do we rebel by
wearing fashions that were popular in 1890? Hell no. That's the equivalent
of what you're suggesting... that the young and restless of 205x would dress
like the young and restless of 195x.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go have my top hat and tails cleaned.

Nexx

From:	BigDaddy <bigdaddy@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:38:46 -0400

Message no. 4 Nexx Many-Scars wrote:
>
> In a message dated 98-06-02 23:06:18 EDT, you write:
>
> > As far as Shadowrun goes, you almost have to figure that 2057 is going to
> > feature some serious 1957 retro fashion. Poodle skirts and all that. Cars
> > with fins. You just know it would happen. Music, probably, too.
>
> You are a sick man... how you could inflict that on _anyone_.... ::shudders::
>
> Haven't said that, I don't think you're thinking this through. Do we rebel by
> wearing fashions that were popular in 1890? Hell no. That's the equivalent
> of what you're suggesting... that the young and restless of 205x would dress
> like the young and restless of 195x.
dude you've got to be kidding me! It would be awesome for to put big ole
dodge Desoto fins on the back of your Nissan Jackrabbit!!!!!

hey for all you gearheads out there, what do u think would happen in
205X for the engine systems? I know that there's fuel cells now, but
would petroleum still be a good source for gas? What hipowered addons
would they have? I dont have the R2 book yet just the RBB.
In my (1993) tbird i got a 302, supercharged with a Vortec 6lb. with
all sorts of goodies (cobra intake, hooker headers, flowmaster exhaust,
etc etc etc.) just had to brag. ps 4:11 rear end ;) screeeaaammmss. Who
needs tires?

--
Napalm Sticks to Kidz,
BigDaddy

From:	Alexia <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Wed, 3 Jun 1998 09:50:29 -0700

Message no. 5 ---BigDaddy <bigdaddy@*****.COM> wrote:
>
> Nexx Many-Scars wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 98-06-02 23:06:18 EDT, you write:
> >
> > > As far as Shadowrun goes, you almost have to figure that 2057 is
going to
> > > feature some serious 1957 retro fashion. Poodle skirts and all
that. Cars
> > > with fins. You just know it would happen. Music, probably, too.
> >
> > You are a sick man... how you could inflict that on _anyone_....
::shudders::
> >
> > Haven't said that, I don't think you're thinking this through. Do
we rebel by
> > wearing fashions that were popular in 1890? Hell no. That's the
equivalent
> > of what you're suggesting... that the young and restless of 205x
would dress
> > like the young and restless of 195x.
> dude you've got to be kidding me! It would be awesome for to put big
ole
> dodge Desoto fins on the back of your Nissan Jackrabbit!!!!!
<snip>

If you'll notice fashion recycles it's self every 30 years. Take bell
bottoms for example. They got popular again in the 90s, they were
around in the 60's and in the 30s and at the turn of the century...of
course it wasn't just bell bottoms, but the whole look of the bell
thing as used in sleeves and skirts and the like...(done research on
this during study hall)
==
~Alexia
http://www.sova.net/trish/shadowrun

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From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:19:59 -0400

Message no. 6 At 02:46 AM 6/3/98 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 98-06-02 23:06:18 EDT, you write:
>
>> As far as Shadowrun goes, you almost have to figure that 2057 is going to
>> feature some serious 1957 retro fashion. Poodle skirts and all that. Cars
>> with fins. You just know it would happen. Music, probably, too.
>
>You are a sick man... how you could inflict that on _anyone_....
::shudders::

Hey, I think it's damn cool. It wouldn't be common, but it would certainly
happen. Hell, look at recent Japanese pop culture; at least for a while in
the late 80s early 90s Japanese youth had a MAJOR 1950s fetish, including
those silly poodle skirts.

>Haven't said that, I don't think you're thinking this through. Do we
rebel by
>wearing fashions that were popular in 1890? Hell no. That's the equivalent
>of what you're suggesting... that the young and restless of 205x would dress
>like the young and restless of 195x.

Actually, haven't you been paying attention to the retro swing scene? It's
been going on for a few years now, just starting to hit big (with the damn
"Zoot Suit Riot" song by the Cherry Poppin' Daddies). To a certain extent,
it's a young yuppie sort of movement.

But you'll also find that a lot of the scensters and the bands were former
punkers. There are a shockingly large number of tatoos to be found in the
swing scene.

And the whole swing scene (and I don't really like that term) is a
rebellion against grunge (mostly) and other forms of pop music like rap and
electronica.

So to bring this back around to SR...

As we are seeing today, there's a lot more ways to rebel (and more things
to rebel against) than previously. A rebel used to wear a black leather
jacket and jeans. Now a rebel might do that. Or they might wear a zoot
suit. Or perhaps have everything pierced, tattooed, and wear latex. Or
they could actually be hiding inside a three-piece suit.

Now project this ahead 60 years. Youth/rebel fashion would be incredibly
splintered. There would be youth rebellions against everything from the
corps, the govs, policlubs, magic, metas, being rich, being poor,
everything we have now plus, and magnified by a factor of ten.

That all being said, about the only retro movement I won't allow in my game
is a 70s disco scene. I kill all disco sorts in my game. So don't even
think about creating a troll John Travolta and singing off-key "Staying
Alive" if you want to remain that way...

Erik J.

"Ladies & Gentleman, the newest member of the band, the one and only Spice
Boy, GRUMPY SPICE!!!" <and the crowd goes wild!!!>

From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:20:37 -0400

Message no. 7 Once upon a time, Alexia wrote;

>If you'll notice fashion recycles it's self every 30 years. Take bell
>bottoms for example. They got popular again in the 90s, they were
>around in the 60's and in the 30s and at the turn of the century...of
>course it wasn't just bell bottoms, but the whole look of the bell
>thing as used in sleeves and skirts and the like...(done research on
>this during study hall)

Cycles of Fashion is more of a relatively recent deal. I don't see
the Plymouth Rock pilgrim look coming back. Current fashion trends do
borrow somewhat heavily at times but still there is a progressive way
this has been approached. Predicting far future trends is best done by
making it a techier (and possibly combat aware) approach to what is done
now. This makes it a look easier for everyone to visualize.
On a more directly helpful note, R. Talsorians Chromebook 4 does
have a few pages dedicated to different clothing styles in a cyberpunk
genre.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"All artists are victims of their desire to be unique"
-Original source unknown

I am MC23

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Wed, 3 Jun 1998 21:45:27 +0100

Message no. 8 MC23 said on 14:20/3 Jun 98,...

> Cycles of Fashion is more of a relatively recent deal. I don't see
> the Plymouth Rock pilgrim look coming back. Current fashion trends do
> borrow somewhat heavily at times but still there is a progressive way
> this has been approached.

I think it also depends on the particular subculture. For example,
over here gabbers (my turn to throw out a name most of you
won't recognize ;) it looks like just about every year they
collectively choose a new style to copy. Not so strange for a
sub"culture" that musically borrow everything from everyone and
puts 70 million bpm at 2000 dB underneath it...
OTOH your average person on the street here looks pretty much
the same as 10/20/30 years ago, except of course for minor
changes like wearing sneakers instead of more "decent" shoes.

No, I don't remember what I wanted to say with this either :)

> Predicting far future trends is best done by
> making it a techier (and possibly combat aware) approach to what is done
> now. This makes it a look easier for everyone to visualize.

And of course get everything dead wrong ;) But that doesn't
matter, I feel, as long as it's believable. This is one thing I
thought was "wrong" about The Diamond Age -- who in their right
minds would go back to wearing late 19th century clothes in the
21st century?

> On a more directly helpful note, R. Talsorians Chromebook 4 does
> have a few pages dedicated to different clothing styles in a cyberpunk
> genre.

All the Chromebooks a good source of pictures and ideas for SR.
The fashion section in CB4 applies to SR very well, if you ask me.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
I guess it never stops.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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From:	Alexia <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:45:01 -0700

Message no. 9 <snip>
> > Cycles of Fashion is more of a relatively recent deal. I
don't see
> > the Plymouth Rock pilgrim look coming back. Current fashion trends
do
> > borrow somewhat heavily at times but still there is a progressive
way
> > this has been approached.

True, I agree...

<snip>

> > Predicting far future trends is best done by
> > making it a techier (and possibly combat aware) approach to what
is done
> > now. This makes it a look easier for everyone to visualize.

Why do parachute pants come to mind? (80s)

> And of course get everything dead wrong ;) But that doesn't
> matter, I feel, as long as it's believable. This is one thing I
> thought was "wrong" about The Diamond Age -- who in their right
> minds would go back to wearing late 19th century clothes in the
> 21st century?
<snip>

Ok. I belong to this group called the Rainbow Girls, I don't want to
go off on a tangent with that one...We wear a long white formal for
our special meetings (alot like a wedding dres) and some of the more
special officers get to wear colored formals. It may sound weird, but
alot of the girls I know joined Rainbow just because they like to get
all dressed up and wear the big long flowing gowns (in some states and
countries) with hoop skirts. I have to admit, once I saw the big
dresses I couldn't get enough of them. Although it may look really old
fashioned (Gone with the wind/civil war period and earlier), a good
percentage of todays young ladies like this sort of thing...and I
think they will still like it in the 20XXs...wether or not it becomes
street ware...well, lets say it's not uncommon to see some of us
running around in our formals at McDonalds, Taco Bell or Meijers...

==
~Alexia
http://www.sova.net/trish/shadowrun

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From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Wed, 3 Jun 1998 17:41:47 -0400

Message no. 10 At 09:45 PM 6/3/98 +0100, you wrote:

>I think it also depends on the particular subculture. For example,
>over here gabbers (my turn to throw out a name most of you
>won't recognize ;) it looks like just about every year they

Hey, I do! It is a mostly English/European term though.

>collectively choose a new style to copy. Not so strange for a
>sub"culture" that musically borrow everything from everyone and
>puts 70 million bpm at 2000 dB underneath it...

Very true. Any culture/subculture that borrows one thing from another
group has a tendency to absorb other things also. You start out sampling
musical snippets, next thing you know you're wearing the clothes too.

>OTOH your average person on the street here looks pretty much
>the same as 10/20/30 years ago, except of course for minor
>changes like wearing sneakers instead of more "decent" shoes.

Well, giant bell bottoms and huge mutton chop sideburns aren't exactly
common anymore, like they were 20+ yrs ago. No, I'd argue that "common"
fashion does change, but it really sort of drifts from year to year. It
wasn't like in 1980 people suddenly stopped wearing bellbottoms, it took a
few years to fade out. A slow drift sometimes seems like nothing's
actually changing.

>thought was "wrong" about The Diamond Age -- who in their right
>minds would go back to wearing late 19th century clothes in the
>21st century?

Don't know about this Diamond Age thing, but a return to Victorian clothing
is highly unlikely for general society. Sure, people like Alexia will
dress up (that, I'd like to see. I can just imagine Scarlett O'Hara
walking into Taco Bell...) in archaic clothing, but it won't be a societal
thing.

And a return to what is rather formal attire would be the product of a
massive change in society as a whole. Not to mention the fashions would be
updated for the 21st Century.

>> On a more directly helpful note, R. Talsorians Chromebook 4 does
>> have a few pages dedicated to different clothing styles in a cyberpunk
>> genre.
>
>All the Chromebooks a good source of pictures and ideas for SR.
>The fashion section in CB4 applies to SR very well, if you ask me.

We didn't ask you ;-) but you're right. For a few years now, the only
reason I'll buy CP2020 stuff is to convert items over to SR, or to at least
get ideas. If you can avoid the temptation to convert stuff like the
man-portable rail cannon, you'll do fine.

Erik J.

Resepected Elders Relaxation Resort, President of Operations
and Director of Activities

"Hey, how about a game of first edition using only the Blue Book?"

From:	Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:58:26 -0500

Message no. 11 On Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:45:01 -0700 Alexia <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
writes:
<SNIP>
>> And of course get everything dead wrong ;) But that doesn't
>> matter, I feel, as long as it's believable. This is one thing I
>> thought was "wrong" about The Diamond Age -- who in their right
>> minds would go back to wearing late 19th century clothes in the
>> 21st century?
><snip>
>
>Ok. I belong to this group called the Rainbow Girls, I don't want to
<SNIP description of Rainbow Girls :) >
>street ware...well, lets say it's not uncommon to see some of us
>running around in our formals at McDonalds, Taco Bell or Meijers...
>
>==
>~Alexia
<SNIP Sig>

Hm ... sounds a lot like SCA ... I wasn't a member, but I went to the
dance meetings when I was at Texas A&M ... Someone there actually had a
corset with real boning (the funny part was she said it qualified as
light armor!) ... That's people running around in Medeival garb and then
the "Gothics" run around in Victorian clothes ... so I can easily see
Fashion being recycled from waaaay back ... hmmmm ... I wonder what SCA
meets are like in 205x ... I doubt any such borrowing will involve exact
reproductions (ie you may see someone wearing corsets, but you're not
likely to see someone wearing a corset pulled so tight that she can't
breathe properly and faints often)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Thu, 4 Jun 1998 12:00:39 +0100

Message no. 12 Alexia said on 13:45/3 Jun 98,...

> Ok. I belong to this group called the Rainbow Girls, I don't want to
> go off on a tangent with that one...We wear a long white formal for
> our special meetings (alot like a wedding dres) and some of the more
> special officers get to wear colored formals. It may sound weird, but
> alot of the girls I know joined Rainbow just because they like to get
> all dressed up and wear the big long flowing gowns (in some states and
> countries) with hoop skirts.
[snip rest]

But do you wear the corsets and things that went along with
those styles of dress 100+ years ago? With your waist tied up so
tight you can put both hands around it? If not, then it looks to me
(and not having seen any of you in those dresses, I'm guessing
here, I admit) like you wear romanticized (sp?) versions of 19th
century clothes.

Which, of course, is what would probably happen if someone
decides that's going to be the new fashion for 205X :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Is it yours, or is it... goodbye!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y? | 21 May 1998
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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Thu, 4 Jun 1998 12:00:39 +0100

Message no. 13 Erik Jameson said on 17:41/3 Jun 98,...

> >I think it also depends on the particular subculture. For example,
> >over here gabbers (my turn to throw out a name most of you
> >won't recognize ;) it looks like just about every year they
>
> Hey, I do! It is a mostly English/European term though.

Dutch, yes :)

> Very true. Any culture/subculture that borrows one thing from another
> group has a tendency to absorb other things also. You start out sampling
> musical snippets, next thing you know you're wearing the clothes too.

It's something a lot of people don't seem to understand, though.
(Not referring to the people on this list, but just everyone in
general :)

> Well, giant bell bottoms and huge mutton chop sideburns aren't exactly
> common anymore, like they were 20+ yrs ago. No, I'd argue that "common"
> fashion does change, but it really sort of drifts from year to year. It
> wasn't like in 1980 people suddenly stopped wearing bellbottoms, it took a
> few years to fade out. A slow drift sometimes seems like nothing's
> actually changing.

Now I remember! That's where I wanted to go with this! :) The
changes are gradual, as you can easily spot by watching movies
made a few years apart. Watch an early 1980s movie, then one
made in the mid-'80s, then a late '80s one, see how things
change.

> Don't know about this Diamond Age thing

It's a book by Neal Stephenson. Rather good, I thought but with
some weird ideas, like the neo-Victorians, not to mention those
drummers...

> And a return to what is rather formal attire would be the product of a
> massive change in society as a whole. Not to mention the fashions would be
> updated for the 21st Century.

For one thing, they'd make them more wearable, I think. And
incorporate body armor :)

> >All the Chromebooks a good source of pictures and ideas for SR.
> >The fashion section in CB4 applies to SR very well, if you ask me.
>
> We didn't ask you ;-)

So? I have this habit of giving my opinion without being asked for
it :) I've stepped on some toes that way, but if they can't take it
they shouldn't have me around [insert someone reaching for the
listserv manual muttering "unsubscribing someone... how did
that work again?" :)]

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Is it yours, or is it... goodbye!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- + --+--
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o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ | the Sqooshy Ball
tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y? | 21 May 1998
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From:	Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:34:33 -0500

Message no. 14 I thought I'd put in my two cents about the laws of fashion:

Fashion exists for one reason, to allow people to draw distictions
between themselves. To do this a fashon must be hard. If anyone can
do it, then it doesn't count anymore. Staying abreast of the latest
fashions is nearly a full time job, so that only the elite can afford to put in
that kind of time. Sometimes a "grunge" style fashion can involve
scrounging through second-hand stores, but to do it "well", it means
doing a LOT of scrounging through a LOT of second-hand stores. If it
didn't, then the "elite" people who are spending 35+ hours a week at this
will just have to figure out something you poor people CANT do.

Outside of this group, there is the bulk of society who can neither afford
35+ hours a week or hiring someone to do it for them. They mimic a
trend or two, if they are reasonably practical. Styles change much
more slowly here.

Then there is the third group, the rebels. They think the first group are
full of **** and the second group booring as dirt. To win points here you
must be unique and creative, or, much more commonly, be able to fake
it. Here fashion is less likely to involve tons of money or time, and more
likely to involve branding oneself an outsider, the more permanently the
better. Sometimes, much to the dismay of this group, fashions from it
work their way to the first group--see belly rings etc.

Those three groups have been around since the dawn of the middle
class. I could see victorian clothing comeing back for a number of
reasons: It could be uncomfortable, which means that posers won't do
it (see the first law of fashion). It would be expensive, even better. If
most clothing was seamlessly stiched from things coming from chemical
vats, then clothing that requires about 30 hours of actual labor(!) could
easily be a considerable status symbol.

Double-Domed Mike
An observer of fashion, but never a participant

From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:12:49 -0400

Message no. 15 At 08:58 PM 6/3/98 -0500, you wrote:

>meets are like in 205x ... I doubt any such borrowing will involve exact
>reproductions (ie you may see someone wearing corsets, but you're not
>likely to see someone wearing a corset pulled so tight that she can't
>breathe properly and faints often)

Actually...corsets are a fetish item, for women to wear and men to look at.
They cinch those corsets pretty tight. I've even heard of extreme cases
in which women had their lower rib removed so they could *really* cinch
those corsets down tight. I suspect that's extremely rare though.

Having seen some of those women in corsets, I can understand what those
fetishists see in it. A bit odd, but I can see it (as opposed to most
other forms of fetishism) and I consider myself pretty normal.

But enough about my peccadilloes, and to bring this back around to SR fashion.

Fashion designers have been trying for years to bring elements of "S&M" and
latex and leather into more mainstream fashion. They've pretty much
failed. But recently, S&M has gained a lot of public awareness; even my
parents have heard of it, and it's been mentioned on prime time network
sitcoms in the last year or two.

Given this, and given the inference that the public in SR 205X seem less
"shockable," do you think you could walk down a street in Seattle in SR and
see fully latex clad (including those hood things) people walking down the
street also?

I don't expect that latex girl and leather boy would be working at the
local Ares office, nor would they be likely to be working in city hall.
But I could see walking into a Stuffer Shack and walking up to a leather
clad clerk to pay for my Super Slurpy. And not even batting an eye or
raising an eyebrow.

Yes, it'd still be rare. Yes, it'd still be considered odd. But it might
have become common enough and "normal" enough that it would just be another
fringe/rebel fashion statement.

Hrmm...I wonder if I should risk asking about sex in 205X...

Erik J.

Resepected Elders Relaxation Resort, President of Operations
and Director of Activities

"Hey, how about a game of first edition using only the Blue Book?"

From:	Alexia <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:25:40 -0700

Message no. 16 <huge snip>
>I doubt any such borrowing will involve exact
> reproductions (ie you may see someone wearing corsets, but you're not
> likely to see someone wearing a corset pulled so tight that she can't
> breathe properly and faints often)
>
> D.Ghost
<snip>

Yeah, right...I wanted to show up my best friend at a dance and wear
this really sexy dress, 'cept it was like a size or two too small, so
I wore all this girlde stuff and couldn't bend over and I almost
passed out twice, but damned I looked good!
==
~Alexia
http://www.sova.net/trish/shadowrun

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From:	Alexia <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:36:57 -0700

Message no. 17 <snip>
> But do you wear the corsets and things that went along with
> those styles of dress 100+ years ago? With your waist tied up so
> tight you can put both hands around it? If not, then it looks to me
> (and not having seen any of you in those dresses, I'm guessing
> here, I admit) like you wear romanticized (sp?) versions of 19th
> century clothes.
<snip>

You decide...here's a pic of me and the other Grand Reps back in
'93-'94...
http://www.gatecom.com/~pssova/yndot/images/rainbow3.jpg
(we all had to get the same dress pattern made)

and me in my white formal...
http://www.gatecom.com/~pssova/yndot/images/rainbow2.jpg
(now adays strapless bras have metal stays that can actually take a
punch if there are enough...)

==
~Alexia
http://www.sova.net/trish/shadowrun

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From:	Alexia <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:45:12 -0700

Message no. 18 Ok, I hope this to be my last comment on this...

I think if they do bring back the big dresses, they'll be more like
the Centauri women's dresses on Babylon 5...they're open in the front
and stuff...'cause frankly driving in a formal with a hoop or multiple
crenolines is pure hell...try driving at rush hour in Detroit going to
Prom in 3 crenolines and I couldn't get to the gear shift (thank God
it was an automatic!)!
==
~Alexia
http://www.sova.net/trish/shadowrun

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From:	Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:26:44 -0500

Message no. 19 On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:12:49 -0400 Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM> writes:
>At 08:58 PM 6/3/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>meets are like in 205x ... I doubt any such borrowing will involve
exact
>>reproductions (ie you may see someone wearing corsets, but you're not
>>likely to see someone wearing a corset pulled so tight that she can't
>>breathe properly and faints often)

>Actually...corsets are a fetish item, for women to wear and men to look
at.
> They cinch those corsets pretty tight. I've even heard of extreme
cases
>in which women had their lower rib removed so they could *really* cinch
>those corsets down tight. I suspect that's extremely rare though.

Actually, I think men wear corsets too (or are the male "versions" called
by a different name?) ... ya know to fit into to those suits two sizes
too small :)

>Having seen some of those women in corsets, I can understand what those
>fetishists see in it. A bit odd, but I can see it (as opposed to most
>other forms of fetishism) and I consider myself pretty normal.
>
>But enough about my peccadilloes, and to bring this back around to SR
>fashion.
>
>Fashion designers have been trying for years to bring elements of "S&M"
and
>latex and leather into more mainstream fashion. They've pretty much
>failed. But recently, S&M has gained a lot of public awareness; even my
>parents have heard of it, and it's been mentioned on prime time network
>sitcoms in the last year or two.
>
>Given this, and given the inference that the public in SR 205X seem less
>"shockable," do you think you could walk down a street in Seattle in SR
and
>see fully latex clad (including those hood things) people walking down
the
>street also?

I dunno if the hoods would be common, but yeah I guess the rest might
become popular ... I think collars have already come and gone (now
chokers are big) and latex fashion may do the same thing ... I wonder if
plastic clothing is still "big" ...

>I don't expect that latex girl and leather boy would be working at the
>local Ares office, nor would they be likely to be working in city hall.

Oh come on, that latex bussiness suit would be great next time you spill
coffee (or whatever) on yourself :)

>But I could see walking into a Stuffer Shack and walking up to a leather
>clad clerk to pay for my Super Slurpy. And not even batting an eye or
>raising an eyebrow.
>
>Yes, it'd still be rare. Yes, it'd still be considered odd. But it
might
>have become common enough and "normal" enough that it would just be
another
>fringe/rebel fashion statement.

Yea I can see it ... (Actually right now I can see an entire latex
society ... /thanks/ ;) ... hmmmm ... there would also probably be
leather/latex/metal combos ... (how about a latex full body suit with
circuit designs on itt or built in blinking lights? ... hey! install a
stereo and you can have your own theme music when you walk down the
street ...)

>Hrmm...I wonder if I should risk asking about sex in 205X...
>
>Erik J.
<SNIP Sig>

Nah ... go for it ... ought to be interesting with the non-(meta)human
sentient species ... as well as who all do Shapeshifters hit on ... That
ought to kill that topic ;) ... yeeeaaah, /right/ ;)

hmmmm... actually now that you've got me thinking about it ... S&M buffs
will proabably be big on obvious chrome for that metal on flesh thing ...
and, cybersex will probably take on a new dimension in 205x ...
<Pixel> Damnit T-Rex`` and lilBunnyFoofoo` are going at it /AGAIN/ ...
<Tantrum> Don't they ever get tired?

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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From:	Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:07:30 -0500

Message no. 20 On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:25:40 -0700 Alexia <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
writes:
><huge snip>
>>I doubt any such borrowing will involve exact
>> reproductions (ie you may see someone wearing corsets, but you're not
>> likely to see someone wearing a corset pulled so tight that she can't
>> breathe properly and faints often)
>>
>> D.Ghost
><snip>

>Yeah, right...I wanted to show up my best friend at a dance and wear
>this really sexy dress, 'cept it was like a size or two too small, so
>I wore all this girlde stuff and couldn't bend over and I almost
>passed out twice, but damned I looked good!
>==
>~Alexia
<SNIP Sig>

* Pixel revenances to milady ~Alexia :)

That's bonkers (no offense :) ... Well, that's why I said you're not
likely to see that (as in it's still possible) ... on the otherhand, I
probably wouldn't have noticed your friend ;) ... but seriously, do you
think Corsets will make a come back (in the
wearing-them-so-tight-that-the-lungs-get-crushed sense)? Most likely,
IMO, it'll be limited to just a few individuals :)

D.Ghost (who's gonna have a big grin for quite a while after /THAT/
mental image ;)
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Thu, 4 Jun 1998 20:31:48 +0100

Message no. 21 Alexia said on 10:36/4 Jun 98,...

> You decide...here's a pic of me and the other Grand Reps back in
> '93-'94...
> http://www.gatecom.com/~pssova/yndot/images/rainbow3.jpg
> (we all had to get the same dress pattern made)
>
> and me in my white formal...
> http://www.gatecom.com/~pssova/yndot/images/rainbow2.jpg

More or less what I thought, yes... It looks like an average, long
dress to me. not that I've done exhaustive research into these
things (19th century is not my favorite historical period), but it
doesn't really come across as a 100+-year-old dress to me.

Sorry :)

> (now adays strapless bras have metal stays that can actually
take a
> punch if there are enough...)

I always wanted to know that... :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Is it yours, or is it... goodbye!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- + --+--
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o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ | the Sqooshy Ball
tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y? | 21 May 1998
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ + --+--

From:	"Ojaste,James [NCR]" <James.Ojaste@**.GC.CA>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:43:47 -0400

Message no. 22 Alexia wrote:
>> But do you wear the corsets and things that went along with
>> those styles of dress 100+ years ago?
>[snip]
>You decide...here's a pic of me and the other Grand Reps back in
>'93-'94...
>http://www.gatecom.com/~pssova/yndot/images/rainbow3.jpg
>(we all had to get the same dress pattern made)
>
>and me in my white formal...
>http://www.gatecom.com/~pssova/yndot/images/rainbow2.jpg
>(now adays strapless bras have metal stays that can actually take a
>punch if there are enough...)

Armour +0/+1? :-)

In any case, this sounds like an entry for the Who's Who... Tinner!
You still here?

James Ojaste

From:	Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:47:00 -0500

Message no. 23 On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:36:57 -0700 Alexia <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
writes:
><snip>
>> But do you wear the corsets and things that went along with
>> those styles of dress 100+ years ago? With your waist tied up so
>> tight you can put both hands around it? If not, then it looks to me
>> (and not having seen any of you in those dresses, I'm guessing
>> here, I admit) like you wear romanticized (sp?) versions of 19th
>> century clothes.
><snip>

>You decide...here's a pic of me and the other Grand Reps back in
>'93-'94...
>http://www.gatecom.com/~pssova/yndot/images/rainbow3.jpg
>(we all had to get the same dress pattern made)
>
>and me in my white formal...
>http://www.gatecom.com/~pssova/yndot/images/rainbow2.jpg
>(now adays strapless bras have metal stays that can actually take a
>punch if there are enough...)
>
>==
>~Alexia
>http://www.sova.net/trish/shadowrun
<SNIP Yahoo ad :)>

I checked out the pics and your sight ... and, 1) the Rainbow Girls'
Dresses don't look that bad (with bad referring to true victorian dress
being unhealthy) ... I couldn't make out any obvious corsets / signs of
corsets, but then again I'm more familiar with Medeival Garb ... 2) I
found a widdle boo-boo in Crystal's Stats ... Shock pads can't be mounted
on folding stocks ... btw, is that smartlink level 1 or 2? (I assume 1)

If ya can locate a kingdom in your area, you might enjoy the SCA ...
Light Fighting (light Fencing), Heavy Fight (People in armor smacking
each other with sticks), Courtroom Dancing (veeeerry cool :), Bardic
(music/poetry/whatever), Archery, and some other stuff I can't think of
right now ... (When I was at Texas A&M I think about half or more of the
on campus members were RPGers) If you can find a kingdom based out of an
University, it'll probably be more fun than one that's not (though,
they're both fun ... just last lot tends to have more sticklers for
details than the first :)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

BTW, if you wear those outfits too often guys'll never be able to spit
out their come-on lines ;)

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From:	Alexia <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:50:27 -0700

Message no. 24 ... but seriously, do you
> think Corsets will make a come back (in the
> wearing-them-so-tight-that-the-lungs-get-crushed sense)? Most likely,
> IMO, it'll be limited to just a few individuals :)
>
> D.Ghost

Answer me these questions...
Why do girls starve themselves?

And why is it that they don't want to look fat?

And if they're willing to do that to thier body just to impress men,
what's a little passing out gunna hurt?-
==
~Alexia
http://www.sova.net/trish/shadowrun

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From:	Alexia <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:54:27 -0700

Message no. 25 <snip>
> > (now adays strapless bras have metal stays that can actually
> take a
> > punch if there are enough...)
>
> I always wanted to know that... :)
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl
<snip>

Glad I could help ;)

==
~Alexia
http://www.sova.net/trish/shadowrun

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From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Thu, 4 Jun 1998 15:35:07 -0600

Message no. 26 Alexia wrote:
/
/ Answer me these questions...
/ Why do girls starve themselves?

Okay, you asked. What follows is a case study of my cousin, who I'm
going to refer to as Betty.

While Betty was growing up her parents were not getting along. Betty
was daddy's "little girl" (and I don't mean that in any perverse sense,
they just got along real well). As dad and mom grew farther apart dad
spent more time with his "little girl". Also, mom had quite a few
issues of her own that caused her to eat to much and she was
overwieght.

When Betty started going through puberty she subconsciously thought
that if she became a woman she wouldn't be daddy's little girl anymore
and she'd grow up to be just like mom. So she started eating less.
Then she'd get hungry and/or mimic her mom's eating habits and binge.
Then fear and guilt would set in and she would "purge" herself.
Purging felt good (she was keeping herself thin and small, screwing up
her body's ability to mature, and punishing herself for what she was doing
to her self. Yes, that last one is a catch 22).

After a couple of years of this everything became habit and the
reasons (if known at all) were burried deep within her psyche.

I can still remember family holidays when Betty would eat a mountain of
food over the course of the holiday and everyone would remark on how
jealous they were that she could eat so much and not get fat (which
irked her mom, who was fat, to no end). Little did anyone know that
Betty was discretly going to the bathroom to purge her stomach. And of
course everyone's jealously and envy, and her mother's disaste at her
own fat, validated Betty's binging, purging, and anorexia. And at these
gathering's she was daddy's "little girl".

After Betty moved out on her own she was able to recognize (slowly)
that her life and her family were pretty screwed up. But 10 years of
habit and screwed of values and psyche and ego take awhile to reverse.
She still has bad days when she binges and purges. She can't maintain
a steady relationship. She is hyper like you wouldn't believe. She
does things to excess (I once went on a hike with my cousin and the
pace she set damn near killed me :-\ ) But she's working on it and
getting better everytime I see her.

BTW, her Mom and Dad had no idea what was going on and that their own
fears were enabling her. Things like this are a kind of domino effect
where one event triggers a cascade of events and actions.

/ And why is it that they don't want to look fat?

It isn't what they want or don't want, it's what they're afraid of.

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Thu, 4 Jun 1998 17:25:49 -0500

Message no. 27 On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:50:27 -0700 Alexia <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
writes:
> ... but seriously, do you
>> think Corsets will make a come back (in the
>> wearing-them-so-tight-that-the-lungs-get-crushed sense)? Most likely,
>> IMO, it'll be limited to just a few individuals :)
>>
>> D.Ghost

>Answer me these questions...
>Why do girls starve themselves?
>
>And why is it that they don't want to look fat?
>
>And if they're willing to do that to thier body just to impress men,
>what's a little passing out gunna hurt?-
>==
>~Alexia
<SNIP Sig>

Yup (unfortunately) ... but hey that's what shrink sims are for ;) ...
but seriously, yes corsets may make a comeback, and yes the way-too-tight
corsets may make a comeback ... but I think modern women (and men) want
to look like whatever society says is good looking with their clothes on
and off (which sounds worse than was intended) hence, the Way-too-tight
corsets are less likely to come back into mainstream fashion (I just
thought of something ... IIRC, too tight Bras can cause/increase chance
of breast cancer ... I wonder if the same is true for too tight corsets
...I know the removing of ribs can lead to your lungs caving in) ...

Oh, well... One thing's for certain: Too-tight-corsets won't make into
Shadowrunner fashion ... nor hoop skirts ... Though you might have well
boned corsets (ie with an armor value ... maybe from 1/2 to 2/4?) ... :)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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From:	The Vagabond <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Thu, 4 Jun 1998 20:43:42 PDT

Message no. 28 >> Well, giant bell bottoms and huge mutton chop sideburns aren't
exactly
>> common anymore, like they were 20+ yrs ago.

I cordially invite you to my job at a music store in Atlanta where
henceforth you will be proved wrong. RSVP. :) Granted, however, they
big bellbottoms and such didn't have as much... flair(for lack of a
better word).

Just for my 2 cents(and an attempt to drag this on topic), I think
since the 80s fashions reverts to the 50s, the 90s have done the same
with the 60s, and as we are seeing with the disco craze, the early 21st
century will revert to the 70s. Then of course the teens will revert
80s...
My point is, keep following this pattern and then 2050s will revert
to the teens, which will revert to 80s. Fitting IMO since that's when
the whole "cyberpunk" as a genre began to really take form. :)

-Vagabond
"Plus ca change..."
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From:	Alexia <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Fri, 5 Jun 1998 06:18:49 -0700

Message no. 29 David>
That's an extreme case. Yes, I do believe it is a very valid response,
but regret that I hadn't considered that anyone would have such a
extreme answer. I'm talking about the other millions of teen/twenty
year old women around the world who watch bay watch and try to make
themselves skinny so they can go to the beach and make guys drool...In
my opinion this is a little more common than the situation you
reported. Thank you for your input though. I sometimes wonder if more
than just 1 or 2 people read this stuff.

==
~Alexia
http://www.sova.net/trish/shadowrun

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From:	Alexia <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Fri, 5 Jun 1998 06:27:26 -0700

Message no. 30 <snip>
> Oh, well... One thing's for certain: Too-tight-corsets won't make into
> Shadowrunner fashion ... nor hoop skirts ... Though you might have
well
> boned corsets (ie with an armor value ... maybe from 1/2 to 2/4?)
... :)
>
> D.Ghost
<snip>

Ok.

Made me think of something. Anastasia. Ok, I saw this on TV a while
ago before the cartoon came out. I think it was on unsolved mysteries
or something...but when the people (whoever) took the tszar and his
family into a room and started shooting at all of them, the women had
hidden some of their jewelry sewn into the lining of their corsets in
case they were taken away...well when they got shot, the bullets
ricosheted (can't spell worth pooh pooh) off the corsets and jewels
and actually ended up hitting some of the shooters...That's how they
figure Anastasia survived, she got hit and it mearly knocked the wind
out of her and being so tight already the corset made her pass out.
They thought she was dead, so when they were taking them to be buried,
the little girl woke up and one of the guys let her go...kinda like
the hunter in Snow White...*shrug*

~Alexia
http://www.sova.net/trish/shadowrun/

"I've got a bullet proof Jacket"
"Yeah, well I've got bullet proof undies!"
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From:	David Mezerette <dame0007@****.UNI-SB.DE>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:48:23 +0200

Message no. 31 On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Alexia wrote:

>
> Ok.
>
> Made me think of something. Anastasia. Ok, I saw this on TV a while
> ago before the cartoon came out. I think it was on unsolved mysteries
> or something...but when the people (whoever) took the tszar and his
> family into a room and started shooting at all of them, the women had
> hidden some of their jewelry sewn into the lining of their corsets in
> case they were taken away...well when they got shot, the bullets
> ricosheted (can't spell worth pooh pooh) off the corsets and jewels
> and actually ended up hitting some of the shooters...That's how they
> figure Anastasia survived, she got hit and it mearly knocked the wind
> out of her and being so tight already the corset made her pass out.
> They thought she was dead, so when they were taking them to be buried,
> the little girl woke up and one of the guys let her go...kinda like
> the hunter in Snow White...*shrug*
>

Oh...so that was the first partially dikoted corset ?

david
aka ChYlD

btw, if that's from the french, as i guess it is, it is spelled
"ricochet(ed)"

From:	rabiola <rabiola@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Fri, 5 Jun 1998 04:07:06 -0500

Message no. 32 >Ok. I belong to this group called the Rainbow Girls, I don't want to
>go off on a tangent with that one...We wear a long white formal for
>our special meetings (alot like a wedding dres) and some of the more
>special officers get to wear colored formals. It may sound weird, but
>alot of the girls I know joined Rainbow just because they like to get
>all dressed up and wear the big long flowing gowns (in some states and
>countries) with hoop skirts. I have to admit, once I saw the big
>dresses I couldn't get enough of them. Although it may look really old
>fashioned (Gone with the wind/civil war period and earlier), a good
>percentage of todays young ladies like this sort of thing...and I
>think they will still like it in the 20XXs...wether or not it becomes
>street ware...well, lets say it's not uncommon to see some of us
>running around in our formals at McDonalds, Taco Bell or Meijers...
>

Question: Does this group have some other purpose other than dressing
up and being a bunch of wedding party posers? Or is it strictly a
"social" club?

Tony Rabiola rabiola@**.netcom.com
Fourth and Sixth World Adept
Still working on the Fifth...

From:	Alexia <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Fri, 5 Jun 1998 07:44:01 -0700

Message no. 33 <snip>
> Question: Does this group have some other purpose other than dressing
> up and being a bunch of wedding party posers? Or is it strictly a
> "social" club?
>
> Tony Rabiola
<snip sig>

Service Org, yes, we are a social club who does service projects for
our community...You're getting into the Masons topic and we don't want
to go back there. If you want more info go to http://www.iorg.org

==
~Alexia
http://www.sova.net/trish/shadowrun

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From:	Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:47:53 +0000

Message no. 34 Alexia wrote the following in reply to David's case description.

> That's an extreme case. Yes, I do believe it is a very valid response,
> but regret that I hadn't considered that anyone would have such a
> extreme answer. I'm talking about the other millions of teen/twenty
> year old women around the world who watch bay watch and try to make
> themselves skinny so they can go to the beach and make guys drool...In
> my opinion this is a little more common than the situation you
> reported. Thank you for your input though. I sometimes wonder if more
> than just 1 or 2 people read this stuff.

I am afraid it is not that uncommon - between one and three in ten,
according to one study. As for those trying to 'imitate' baywatch,
biology says that won't be easy, at least if you want a slim body and
big breasts. So they use silicon implants for that Pamela Anderson
look. And it works. A lot of guys find that attractive, they feel
more confident, and they are likely to get silicon poisoning.
There's currently alternatives to silicon which isn't as dangerous,
AFAIK, but I still think it is not a good sign when you need surgery
to feel attractive.

But to bring this into shadowrun.. reconstructive surgery/cyber/bio
for altering people's looks. How common is that in 2050? In William
Gibson's books, it's very common - almost everyone with money does
it, changing appearance yearly or even monthly. I'd think so about SR
too.. looking at today's world, plastic surgery is advancing rapidly,
and doesn't look like it's going to stop anytime soon... rather, it's
expanding the market to guys as well. (Receding hairlines anyone?
That's old news...).

Trying to find Mrs. X? She with the fad 'Toni Verchi look' that one
in five looks like right now? Ooooookay..
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost

From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:00:38 +0100

Message no. 35 And verily, did Fade hastily scribble thusly...
|I am afraid it is not that uncommon - between one and three in ten,
|according to one study. As for those trying to 'imitate' baywatch,
|biology says that won't be easy, at least if you want a slim body and
|big breasts. So they use silicon implants for that Pamela Anderson
|look. And it works. A lot of guys find that attractive, they feel
|more confident, and they are likely to get silicon poisoning.
|There's currently alternatives to silicon which isn't as dangerous,

That's Silicone, not Silicon.
(Silicon is a crystaline semi-metal used as a semiconductor in every peice
of electronic equipment you can think of (apart from the few that use GaAs
or Ge). Silicone is a gel.)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	Alexia <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Fri, 5 Jun 1998 08:13:29 -0700

Message no. 36 ---Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK> wrote:
>
> And verily, did Fade hastily scribble thusly...
> |I am afraid it is not that uncommon - between one and three in ten,
> |according to one study. As for those trying to 'imitate' baywatch,
> |biology says that won't be easy, at least if you want a slim body and
> |big breasts. So they use silicon implants for that Pamela Anderson
> |look. And it works. A lot of guys find that attractive, they feel
> |more confident, and they are likely to get silicon poisoning.
> |There's currently alternatives to silicon which isn't as dangerous,
>
> That's Silicone, not Silicon.
> (Silicon is a crystaline semi-metal used as a semiconductor in every
peice
> of electronic equipment you can think of (apart from the few that
use GaAs
> or Ge). Silicone is a gel.)
<snip>

Pickey Pickey Pickey! I think we could figure out what he was talking
about! goodness...
==
~Alexia
http://www.sova.net/trish/shadowrun

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From:	Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:20:12 +0100

Message no. 37 And verily, did Alexia hastily scribble thusly...
|Pickey Pickey Pickey! I think we could figure out what he was talking
|about! goodness...

Hey, I like being pedantic.
Call it a hobby...
:)

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Fri, 5 Jun 1998 09:46:16 -0600

Message no. 38 Spike wrote:
/
/ And verily, did Alexia hastily scribble thusly...
/ |Pickey Pickey Pickey! I think we could figure out what he was talking
/ |about! goodness...
/
/ Hey, I like being pedantic.
/ Call it a hobby...
/ :)

Let's just be honest and call it a lifestyle ;)

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Fri, 5 Jun 1998 09:58:50 -0600

Message no. 39 Alexia wrote:
/
/ David>
/ That's an extreme case. Yes, I do believe it is a very valid response,
/ but regret that I hadn't considered that anyone would have such a
/ extreme answer. I'm talking about the other millions of teen/twenty
/ year old women around the world who watch bay watch and try to make
/ themselves skinny so they can go to the beach and make guys drool...In
/ my opinion this is a little more common than the situation you
/ reported.

It still boils down to fear and low self esteem. They're afraid that
they won't be liked because they don't look like the women portrayed by
the media/advertisers. This is further validated by all the teenage
guys who talk about the camera angles in the last episode of Baywatch
(or whatever movie/TV babe their fixated on that week). And if Dad
oggles the media babes too... If the fear is strong enough and the
self esteem is low enough the young women is willing to go to great
lengths and that's how you end up with anorexics and bolemics.

From this point we could get into prevention and healing, but it would
go way off topic :)

/ Thank you for your input though. I sometimes wonder if more
/ than just 1 or 2 people read this stuff.

Well, I'm Gridsec so I gotta read everything :) That includes Adam,
Gurth and Tim, so that makes at least 4 people ;)

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:46:27 -0500

Message no. 40 >
> Alexia wrote:

>
> It still boils down to fear and low self esteem. They're afraid that
> they won't be liked because they don't look like the women portrayed by
> the media/advertisers. This is further validated by all the teenage
> guys who talk about the camera angles in the last episode of Baywatch
> (or whatever movie/TV babe their fixated on that week). And if Dad
> oggles the media babes too... If the fear is strong enough and the
> self esteem is low enough the young women is willing to go to great
> lengths and that's how you end up with anorexics and bolemics.
>
> >From this point we could get into prevention and healing, but it would
> go way off topic :)
>
> / Thank you for your input though. I sometimes wonder if more
> / than just 1 or 2 people read this stuff.
>
> Well, I'm Gridsec so I gotta read everything :) That includes Adam,
> Gurth and Tim, so that makes at least 4 people ;)
>
Heh..Well I'm reading it/skimming it, so that makes at least 5. :)
The interesting part, is will this trend continue? Probably so.
Another odd thing, is guys with anorexia/bulemia, although
they are are rarer. But I'm digressing badly.
Anyway to bring this one back OT? Heh..how about how common is body
sculpting (sp?) in 205x.

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The universe doesn't have laws, it has habits. And habits can be broken.

From:	Mike Buckalew <mike_buckalew@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:09:30 -0700

Message no. 41 > Anyway to bring this one back OT? Heh..how about how common is body
> sculpting (sp?) in 205x.

I would say quite common. As an alternate form of weight control, what
about advancements on the artificial foodstuffs we're starting to see now.
Things like "Olean" and this new backwards sugar molecule.

You could use all of the soy food flavorings common to the SR fiction, but
use a non-digestible base. Eat like a pig and never gain a pound. Of
course, you wouldn't last long eating only this stuff, but if you can't
afford surgery...

Buck (Mike Buckalew)
buck@*********.com
Test Manager
FileMaker, Inc.

From:	Alexia <alexia_silverstein@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:29:35 -0700

Message no. 42 ---Mike Buckalew <mike_buckalew@*********.COM> wrote:
>
> > Anyway to bring this one back OT? Heh..how about how common is body
> > sculpting (sp?) in 205x.
>
> I would say quite common. As an alternate form of weight control,
what
> about advancements on the artificial foodstuffs we're starting to
see now.
> Things like "Olean" and this new backwards sugar molecule.
>
> You could use all of the soy food flavorings common to the SR
fiction, but
> use a non-digestible base. Eat like a pig and never gain a pound. Of
> course, you wouldn't last long eating only this stuff, but if you
can't
> afford surgery...
>
> Buck (Mike Buckalew)
<snipsig>

Have any of you ever actually had surgery? I mean that could possibly
be derived as costmetic? I did , it was 'cause I had an underbite and
it was hard to chew food...whichever. It was quite traumatic for me
with just the idea that I could die 'cause of some complication in
surgery. That was not a fun consept to deal with for the 3 months
before hand. Not to mention for 2/3 weeks having to have my jaws wired
shut. I can't see how people can have some of this stuff done and
they're doing it just to look better! I sure hope if people in 205X
have costhmetic surgery that often, they have very advanced healing
techniques.
==
~Alexia
http://www.sova.net/trish/shadowrun

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From:	Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Fri, 5 Jun 1998 13:48:16 -0400

Message no. 43 At 06:18 AM 6/5/98 -0700, you wrote:

>That's an extreme case. Yes, I do believe it is a very valid response,
>but regret that I hadn't considered that anyone would have such a
>extreme answer. I'm talking about the other millions of teen/twenty
>year old women around the world who watch bay watch and try to make
>themselves skinny so they can go to the beach and make guys drool...In
>my opinion this is a little more common than the situation you
>reported. Thank you for your input though. I sometimes wonder if more
>than just 1 or 2 people read this stuff.

Don't think this sort of behavior is just for women anymore.

Men, who aren't in any sport at all and don't need the muscles, sometimes
abuse steroids and other "physique drugs" like growth hormones, insulin,
thyroid medication and diuretics. For no other purpose than to have
rippling muscles to show off at the beach and at clubs. That's the biggest
reason for steroid abuse amongst high-school kids. Trying to pack on
muscles to compensate for low-self esteem or something similar. Trying to
simply become "popular" or to get a date with a cheerleader.

Less extreme cases, to which I myself am guilty to a degree, involve
spending time in the gym, trying to manage and sometimes obsessing over
what we eat, and spending inordinate amounts on supplements like HMB and
Creatine to help us pack on muscle and to lose fat.

And to be honest, I don't see any real problem with this sort of thing, as
long as it doesn't become extreme or obsessive. That leads eventually to
death (i.e., the bodybuilding community has been hit hard in the last year
with some drug-induced or caused deaths).

Why?

Both men and women play all sorts of games with each other and themselves
to compete for, well, essentially sex. Women fuss about their clothes and
ask "is my ass too big in this skirt?" Men fuss about their clothes (in
different ways though) and ask "dude, does this shirt show off my pecs? I
bombed 'em hard this afternoon!"

Of course, living in self-centered Los Angeles, perhaps my view is more
than a bit skewed. But I'd rather be hitting the gym and lifting iron than
sitting around watching Seinfeld and getting fat.

Now back to Shadowrun...studies indicate that Americans at least are
becoming fatter. The average weight of an American has increased in the
last decade or two. Do you think this is a trend that would continue into
205X? Would some other factor cut in to keep average weight down (perhaps
all that soy food turns out to be good for that?)?

And as was brought up, I strongly suspect that cosmetic surgery would be a
booming business in 205X. It's pretty clear that the ultra-rich, from
descriptions in novels anyway, avail themselves of every "youth enhancing"
modification possible. I think one of the women on ZO is supposed to be a
wrinkled old grandma, but she, because of cosmetic modifications, looks
more like an attractive 30ish 40ish.

Hey, has anyone played a "fat" shadowrunner before? Or have they all been
either skinny (like a lot of geeks are...) or muscle bound (the
fantasy...)? I'm not sure I've ever run across anyone who's played a fat
'runner. Something of a commentary on our society...

Erik J.

"Oh my God, they killed Dunkelzahn! You bastards!!!"

From:	Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:01:06 EDT

Message no. 44 In a message dated 98-06-05 13:35:27 EDT, you write:

> Have any of you ever actually had surgery? I mean that could possibly
> be derived as costmetic?

Yep. To straighten out my right eye (not make it see better... just make it
track with the left). Not only did I have to worry about them poking around
my head with sharp objects, they botched the surgery, so my eye still doesn't
work right.

Perhaps that's why I prefer mages/physads... those folks don't go under the
knife...

Nexx

From:	Wraith <wraith@************.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:58:01 -0500

Message no. 45 -----Original Message-----
From: Mike Buckalew <mike_buckalew@*********.COM>

>> Anyway to bring this one back OT? Heh..how about how common is body
>> sculpting (sp?) in 205x.
>
>I would say quite common. As an alternate form of weight control, what
>about advancements on the artificial foodstuffs we're starting to see now.
>Things like "Olean" and this new backwards sugar molecule.
>

I would agree with body sculpting being quite common. In the novel where
the main character goes to Hawai'i (House of the Sun I think) he notices a
lot of Corps running around in bathing suits, and wonders how come they're
still alive. He's told the main surgical procedures are Dermal Armor, body
sculpting, and some process that makes your eyes not need sunglasses.

Future of food? Genetically engineered food that eliminates the stuff
people don't want? Personally I can't stand some of the food trends going
around...I looked in the pantry the other day and actually found NO-SALT
SALTINES. Blew my mind.

Wraith

From:	Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:32:46 -0500

Message no. 46 On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:00:38 +0100 Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
writes:
>And verily, did Fade hastily scribble thusly...
<SNIP>
>|big breasts. So they use silicon implants for that Pamela Anderson
>|look. And it works. A lot of guys find that attractive, they feel
<SNIP>
>
>That's Silicone, not Silicon.
>(Silicon is a crystaline semi-metal used as a semiconductor in every
peice
>of electronic equipment you can think of (apart from the few that use
GaAs
>or Ge). Silicone is a gel.)
>--
<SNIP Sig>
>|Andrew Halliwell
<SNIP More Sig>

You mean he wasn't talking about a creative place to put headware memory?
*ducks and activates Herring (red, of course) ant-carp missile system*

Seriously, what are some creative orientations/locations people have used
for implanted cyberware? ... For example, until Hatchetman's story in
CyberTechnology, I hadn't considered implanting a spur going backwards
...

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

_____________________________________________________________________
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From:	Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Fri, 5 Jun 1998 17:56:46 -0500

Message no. 47 On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 16:47:53 +0000 Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO> writes:
<SNIP>
>But to bring this into shadowrun.. reconstructive surgery/cyber/bio
>for altering people's looks. How common is that in 2050? In William
>Gibson's books, it's very common - almost everyone with money does
>it, changing appearance yearly or even monthly. I'd think so about SR
>too.. looking at today's world, plastic surgery is advancing rapidly,
>and doesn't look like it's going to stop anytime soon... rather, it's
>expanding the market to guys as well. (Receding hairlines anyone?
>That's old news...).
>
>Trying to find Mrs. X? She with the fad 'Toni Verchi look' that one
>in five looks like right now? Ooooookay..
>--
>Fade
<SNIP Sig>

I don't think it would be /THAT/ common but the fashion concious might
purchase any cyber modified to be easily adapted to the current trends
(ie "Neon's back in style? Well I'll just unsnap the chrome plates on my
cyberarm and put the Neon ones back on ...") For those with the cash,
surgery to stay with the fashion might be option, but even so ... no more
than once a year (IMO) ... hey you know, someone (Alexia?) brought up rib
removal to get that super thin waist (which cause respiratory problems
because, IIRC, the remaining ribs can't support the lungs) ... well with
bone lacing, that might be more common since the reinforced remaining
ribs might be able to pick up the slack ... could lead to some really
freaky looking people ...

Hmmm ... what other non-obvious cyber could have "fashion" uses?
An anorexic might installl Symbiotes ...
Extended Volume/Internal Airtank might be installed to counter the effect
of supertight corsets ...
Replacable Hands with different Nail Polish Colors/Designs ...

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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From:	MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Fri, 5 Jun 1998 20:46:51 -0400

Message no. 48 Once upon a time, Alfredo B Alves wrote;

>Seriously, what are some creative orientations/locations people have used
>for implanted cyberware? ... For example, until Hatchetman's story in
>CyberTechnology, I hadn't considered implanting a spur going backwards
>...

I did with my very first character. Now Kid Stealth was a character
that had an unusual cyber. For those who haven't read those stories he
had cyber legs made like a velocirapter's.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

From:	Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Sat, 6 Jun 1998 03:19:51 +0000

Message no. 49 Alexia wrote in reply to Spike:

> > And verily, did Fade hastily scribble thusly...
*SNIP*
> > |And it works. A lot of guys find that attractive, they feel
> > |more confident, and they are likely to get silicon poisoning.
> > |There's currently alternatives to silicon which isn't as dangerous,
> >
> > That's Silicone, not Silicon.
> > (Silicon is a crystaline semi-metal used as a semiconductor in every
> > peice of electronic equipment you can think of (apart from the few that
> > use GaAs or Ge). Silicone is a gel.)

> Pickey Pickey Pickey! I think we could figure out what he was talking
> about! goodness...

I think I understand Spike's concern. It would be very, very bad if
some girls put crystals into their breasts. It would certainly be
dangerous, and any misunderstanding should be cleared up as soon as
possible.

Thanks, Spike!

Someone else asked about creative places to put cyber.
In 'Dreams of Sand' one of the main characters, a 'samurai', Toshi
(IIRC), a really fat guy.. or at least that's how he appears. (Sumo
wrestler? I don't remember). He has a lot of combat cyber, tactical
computer lookalikes, etcetera in his abdomen.

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost

From:	Karl Low <kwil@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Fashion
Date:	Fri, 5 Jun 1998 20:23:56 -0600

Message no. 50 Erik Jameson wrote something like:
>So have any of you played a fat runner?

Hey Erik.. remember Xenon, with the paunch/pot-belly?
There's also my Newbie.. (should be due for a return appearance in a month or
so.. whenever Ares does it's thing according to BiTB) He's a pudgy little
kid..

Anyway.. as for other fashion trends.. has anybody thought about things such
as tattoos with phosphorescent(sp?) ink or ink that only shows up in UV
lighting? I could see a big swing for this stuff in the clubs.

There was also an article back in wired about a bracelet which has a diamond
in it that pulses according to your heart-beat. (Some kinda sensors and a
little light underneath the gem..) Of course, this means anybody else has an
instant gauge as to how you're feeling a little bit. Maybe even combine this
with the tat's.. When you're mad, angry red lines appear across your face.

Clothes that change color via minute amounts of electricity.. ala Snow Crash.
Change the saying on your shirt/jacket at the touch of a button.Or the entire
look of the thing with well done shades of color.

I could even see clothes that make noise under stress.. (swing your arm
really fast and get that Micheal Jackson "Bad" effect.)

I don't think we'll be seeing jeans go away.. but then again, they probably
didn't think Cuordoroy('nother sp?) would wind up out of style at the time
either.

Fake datajacks for those wage-slaves not deemed high enough in the ladder to
deserve one...

And then you add the possibility of cosmetic surgery? I know people now who
get "vampire" teeth done up and cat's eye contacts.. (although I try to avoid
them in general. :-) ) I can envision hair transplants of fibre-optics..
or like those strange furry lights you see sometimes where all the fibres
change color. There's people now who inject small amounts of botulism into
their face to prevent it from moving and hence wrinkling... if people will do
THAT for looks, why not a "grace enhancing" move by wire system?

The possibilities boggle.

-Karl

Message no. 51 On Fri, 5 Jun 1998 20:23:56 -0600 Karl Low <kwil@*********.COM> writes:
<SNIP>
>Anyway.. as for other fashion trends.. has anybody thought about things
such
>as tattoos with phosphorescent(sp?) ink or ink that only shows up in UV
>lighting? I could see a big swing for this stuff in the clubs.

Gurth's Cyberpunk conversions, IIRC, include "light" tattoos... Gives new
meaning to "Flash" ... Hey, Gurth/anyone with the appropriate CP books,
can light tattoos pulse/change color/pattern?

>There was also an article back in wired about a bracelet which has a
diamond
>in it that pulses according to your heart-beat. (Some kinda sensors and
a
>little light underneath the gem..) Of course, this means anybody else
has an
>instant gauge as to how you're feeling a little bit. Maybe even combine
this
>with the tat's.. When you're mad, angry red lines appear across your
>face.

Why not have turn your face red, and then install steam projectors and a
whistle in your ear?
*ducks*

>Clothes that change color via minute amounts of electricity.. ala Snow
Crash.
>Change the saying on your shirt/jacket at the touch of a button.Or the
entire
>look of the thing with well done shades of color.

You mean like ruthenium polymers? (which do exactly that ... they change
colors as electricity is run through them ... they do *not* emit color as
some people have suggested in a different thread)

> I could even see clothes that make noise under stress.. (swing your arm
>really fast and get that Micheal Jackson "Bad" effect.)

They have some funky toy -- A glove and belt unit with SFX cards -- that
will do that or something similar ... What sound will it make when you
*hip thrust* *hip thrust* *hip thrust*? (not a Micheal Jackson reference
;)

>I don't think we'll be seeing jeans go away.. but then again, they
probably
>didn't think Cuordoroy('nother sp?) would wind up out of style at the
time
>either.

I thought Corderoy was back in fashion again ... did it go out again?

>Fake datajacks for those wage-slaves not deemed high enough in the
ladder to
>deserve one...

And maybe something to hide the datajacks of those who /do/ have them
(maybe combined with a falsie to throw someone off ... "uhm, wasn't your
datajack on the other side of your face?" "...I have a datajack???")

>And then you add the possibility of cosmetic surgery? I know people now
who
>get "vampire" teeth done up and cat's eye contacts.. (although I try to
avoid
>them in general. :-) ) I can envision hair transplants of
fibre-optics..
>or like those strange furry lights you see sometimes where all the
fibres
>change color.

I have a char with Tim's PMP/Ruthenium Hair Implants which are similar to
what you are suggesting (btw, these are available from Adam's TSS
...issue #5) ... Btw, the +/-10% change in hair length from the PMP part
really isn't much ...

>There's people now who inject small amounts of botulism into
>their face to prevent it from moving and hence wrinkling... if people
will do
>THAT for looks, why not a "grace enhancing" move by wire system?
>
>The possibilities boggle.
>
>
>-Karl

Enhanced Articulation + Move-by-Wire 4 and suddenly you've got Grace up
the yin-yang (and the lifespan of a horsefly ...)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 52 > Re: Shadowrun Fashion (Erik Jameson , Thu 12:12)

> Fashion designers have been trying for years to bring elements of "S&M"
and
> latex and leather into more mainstream fashion. They've pretty much
> failed. But recently, S&M has gained a lot of public awareness; even my
> parents have heard of it, and it's been mentioned on prime time network
> sitcoms in the last year or two.
>
> Given this, and given the inference that the public in SR 205X seem less
> "shockable," do you think you could walk down a street in Seattle in SR and
> see fully latex clad (including those hood things) people walking down the
> street also?
>

You can see less extreeme versions of the same thing today, so I'd say
yes, IF sexully explicit fashions in general are more broadly popular
(and less prone toget you in trouble).

> I don't expect that latex girl and leather boy would be working at the
> local Ares office, nor would they be likely to be working in city hall.
> But I could see walking into a Stuffer Shack and walking up to a leather
> clad clerk to pay for my Super Slurpy. And not even batting an eye or
> raising an eyebrow.

I'd be shocked, because those types of fashion are EXPENSIVE. Maybe
with broader production and cheaper materials, the'd bein the reach of
mere convinience clerks, but I sure as hell could't afford a fetish
wardrobe, even if it WAS my daily wear.
Then again, I'm always AMAZED at the folks I see sporting $150 Nike's,
"Tommy" gear, and other rather expensive "Fly" clothes- some of whom
ask
me for spare change! So I guess some folks spend more of thier income
on wardrobes than me.

> Yes, it'd still be rare. Yes, it'd still be considered odd. But it might
> have become common enough and "normal" enough that it would just be another
> fringe/rebel fashion statement.

As soon asit was a "normal" type of reblion, the folks who actully set
the trends wouldn't do it any more. Not thatI'm in thatcrowd, but I
simply can NOT wear a pair of DocMartens anymore without feeling like
some mall rat poser punk or nostaliga freak.
My friends and I DID go to a "haunted mini-golf" course in the 'burbs
the other day, decked out in various light bondage and goth outfits,
just for a larf, so maybe what your proposing isn't so far-fetched.
Truth told, nobody really seemd all that shocked (or willing to do
anything if they were)- I mean, who's to say WE are wierd, when we are
putting into themouth of a giant skull, and theres 8 of us to the 2
yuppies with nothing better to do on a monday night? We did get some
funny looks and a seat inthe back at the local familyrestaurant
afterwords, however. I should note that most of us look about 30, and
we don't act like "nutty kids", whichgets you past a lot of shit you
might put up with otherwise.

BTW, I remeber one SR modual that DID have a "Goth bar" in it (a
converted church, noless, IIRC). My impression was the author was
mocking the entire goth / WW phenomina.

> Hrmm...I wonder if I should risk asking about sex in 205X...

I suppose if by the time you are that old, if you haven't ever asked,
you aren't ever gonna. I'd ask NOW. ;)

Message no. 53 rabiola said on 4:07/5 Jun 98,...

> Question: Does this group have some other purpose other than dressing
> up and being a bunch of wedding party posers?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
ROTFL!

We've had elven posers, vampire posers, and klingon posers for
years, maybe a wedding party poser gang is the next logical step
:)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Is it yours, or is it... goodbye!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y? | 21 May 1998
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ + --+--

Message no. 54 Alexia said on 10:29/5 Jun 98,...

> Have any of you ever actually had surgery?

Me, not as far as I'm aware of... :)

> I mean that could possibly
> be derived as costmetic? I did , it was 'cause I had an underbite and
> it was hard to chew food...whichever. It was quite traumatic for me
> with just the idea that I could die 'cause of some complication in
> surgery. That was not a fun consept to deal with for the 3 months
> before hand. Not to mention for 2/3 weeks having to have my jaws wired
> shut. I can't see how people can have some of this stuff done and
> they're doing it just to look better!

But they do it today, so with the much more advanced
possibilities of surgery in the 2050s, it looks to me like it will only
be more so. Unless the natural look comes into fashion (and then
you'll get all kinds of people going under the knife so they can
look like they've never had cosmetic surgery).

> I sure hope if people in 205X
> have costhmetic surgery that often, they have very advanced healing
> techniques.

They do. It's called magic :) Although that would cost a lot, I see
it as something most rich people would use, if only so they don't
have to stay in hospital any longer than they absolutely have to.
For those with less money, normal healing would be the way to
go, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Is it yours, or is it... goodbye!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y? | 21 May 1998
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Message no. 55 Alfredo B Alves said on 23:32/5 Jun 98,...

> Gurth's Cyberpunk conversions, IIRC, include "light" tattoos... Gives new
> meaning to "Flash" ... Hey, Gurth/anyone with the appropriate CP books,
> can light tattoos pulse/change color/pattern?

Some versions, called synth-skins, can; light tattoos can't
(according to the CP2020 rulebook).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Is it yours, or is it... goodbye!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y? | 21 May 1998
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ + --+--

Message no. 56 In our last episode, Erik Jameson wrote:
> Hey, has anyone played a "fat" shadowrunner before? Or have they all been
> either skinny (like a lot of geeks are...) or muscle bound (the
> fantasy...)? I'm not sure I've ever run across anyone who's played a fat
> 'runner. Something of a commentary on our society...

Sure, Erik, my balding, orcish, Gator shaman, D'Arcy LaRue is definitely
what you'd call overweight. Take a look for yourself:
http://www.intercom.net/user/logan1/runners.htm

(Although admittedly, he's been relegated to more of an NPC status,
these days...)
--Fenris

I guess this makes me:
"one more slot, who reads these posts"
____________________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) Is it in the "mysterious employer credo" that
these little rendezvous always have to be in exotic
locales? I mean, just once wouldn't you like to sit
down at a Denny's and plan an assassination over a
'French Slam' breakfast?
(>) --Deadpool, merc-with-a-mouth

Message no. 57 rabiola wrote:

> >Ok. I belong to this group called the Rainbow Girls, I don't want to
> >go off on a tangent with that one...We wear a long white formal for
> >our special meetings (alot like a wedding dres) and some of the more
> >special officers get to wear colored formals. It may sound weird, but
> >alot of the girls I know joined Rainbow just because they like to get
> >all dressed up and wear the big long flowing gowns (in some states and
> >countries) with hoop skirts. I have to admit, once I saw the big
> >dresses I couldn't get enough of them. Although it may look really old
> >fashioned (Gone with the wind/civil war period and earlier), a good
> >percentage of todays young ladies like this sort of thing...and I
> >think they will still like it in the 20XXs...wether or not it becomes
> >street ware...well, lets say it's not uncommon to see some of us
> >running around in our formals at McDonalds, Taco Bell or Meijers...

Hey someone els on the list that was in a Masonic organization...gotta
watch your step here Alexia some of got torches and rope round these parts.
;)

<Note: The above was a joke and in no way should be construed as anything
other thatn such...really I mean it>

> Question: Does this group have some other purpose other than dressing
> up and being a bunch of wedding party posers? Or is it strictly a
> "social" club?

It's more than that Rab, but it would be really hard to explain if you
don't have any basis for comparison.

Caric-who-was-a-DeMolay-*NOT*-a-Rainbow-girl-just-so-everyone-is-clear-:)-sh
aman

Message no. 58 > From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>

> > Question: Does this group have some other purpose other than dressing
> > up and being a bunch of wedding party posers?
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> ROTFL!
>
> We've had elven posers, vampire posers, and klingon posers for
> years, maybe a wedding party poser gang is the next logical step
> :)

So I would assume that they would be in the honeymoon suit of the hotel
having the First Church of Elvis convention correct?

;)

Caric

Message no. 59 > From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>

> And verily, did Alexia hastily scribble thusly...
> |Pickey Pickey Pickey! I think we could figure out what he was talking
> |about! goodness...
>
> Hey, I like being pedantic.
> Call it a hobby...
> :)

I think you gave up your amateur status long ago Spikey my boy. :)

Keep up the good work.

Caric

Message no. 60 <snip>
>
> Caric-who-was-a-DeMolay-*NOT*-a-Rainbow-girl-just-so-everyone-is-clear-:)-sh
> aman
i look to the west for the sitter......
--
Napalm Sticks to Kidz,
BigDaddy

Message no. 61 Logan Graves wrote:
>
> In our last episode, Erik Jameson wrote:
> > Hey, has anyone played a "fat" shadowrunner before? Or have they all
been
> > either skinny (like a lot of geeks are...) or muscle bound (the
> > fantasy...)? I'm not sure I've ever run across anyone who's played a fat
> > 'runner. Something of a commentary on our society...

Of course I have! I have an overweight dwarf mechanic. Although he's not
actually a full-time runner (he's too old and fat, in his own words)
he's backup support. I think the most likely char archetypes to be on
the hefty side would be riggers, deckers, and mages. Take, for example,
Porky Pryne from the Into the SHadows anthology...

-- Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>

"Remember, it IS as bad as you think, and they ARE out to get you."

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm

Message no. 62 <snip>
> It would be very, very bad if
> some girls put crystals into their breasts. It would certainly be
> dangerous,
<snip>
> Someone else asked about creative places to put cyber.
<snip>
> --
> Fade
<snip sig>

Crystals in their breasts...what about like fingertip compartments,
breasts could become places to store or smuggle in things...
Enhance your cup size and store that spare car key where you won't
forget it...
Hey, I mean women use their cleveage now as a pocket of sorts for
things like money (or in one rare case, a pager) when they can't have
a purse...not like I'd do it, naw not me *innocent look*

==
~Alexia
http://www.sova.net/trish/shadowrun

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Message no. 63 <snip>
> >I don't think we'll be seeing jeans go away.. but then again, they
> probably
> >didn't think Cuordoroy('nother sp?) would wind up out of style at the
> time
> >either.
>
> I thought Corderoy was back in fashion again ... did it go out again?
<snip>
> D.Ghost
<snip>

I haven't had a pair of corderoy jeans since 2nd grade...hot pink. I
was talking to mom...who's like 50 and she said when she was growing
up her and her brothers wouldn't be caught dead in a pair of jeans,
only poor kids in her area wore jeans 'cause they just couldn't afford
anything better...now it's THE thing to wear.
==
~Alexia
http://www.sova.net/trish/shadowrun

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Message no. 64 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> Crystals in their breasts...what about like fingertip compartments,
> breasts could become places to store or smuggle in things... Enhance
> your cup size and store that spare car key where you won't forget
> it... Hey, I mean women use their cleavage now as a pocket of sorts
> for things like money (or in one rare case, a pager) when they can't
> have a purse...not like I'd do it, naw not me *innocent look*

Actually, I remember reading a news article about cocaine being
smuggled into the US in breast implants. Someone tipped off the DEA
and the woman with impossibly huge breasts was arrested in customs.
turns out she had several million dollars worth of cocaine for breast
implants.

Pantherr

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A lifetime spent repressing our animal natures and instincts is a lifetime wasted
--
Furry Code 1.3
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RL#/TH*acn>a++d+e>+++f->+h*>+++(++)iw+j>+p+>++sm#

Message no. 65 In our last episode, Jett wrote:

> Of course I have! I have an overweight dwarf mechanic. Although he's not
> actually a full-time runner (he's too old and fat, in his own words)
> he's backup support. I think the most likely char archetypes to be on
> the hefty side would be riggers, deckers, and mages. Take, for example,
> Porky Pryne from the Into the SHadows anthology...

::Sound of palm slapping a forehead::

Come to think of it, so do I. "Gislan the Wrench" is also an overweight
dwarven rigger/mechanic-type NPC. His stats can also be found at:

http://www.intercom.net/user/logan1/runners.htm

Sheesh!
--Fenris
_______________________________________________logan1@*****.intercom.net
(>) My wife just bought a pack of disposable diapers
with the hateful "Barney the Dinosaur" all over
them. So now I'm trying to decide if they'll be
equally absorbent when turned INSIDE OUT!!
(>) --Me ;-)

Message no. 66 > they're doing it just to look better! I sure hope if people in 205X
> have costhmetic surgery that often, they have very advanced healing
> techniques.
> ==
> ~Alexia

Hey, if you got the cred, they'll just wheel out that mage they save for
special occasions, a little finger wiggling, and off you go, thankyou very
much. Of course you'd have to make it worth their while, since they couldn't
leach you for care fees anymore :)

Mark
'Who is the more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him ?'

Message no. 67 On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Mike Buckalew wrote:

> > Anyway to bring this one back OT? Heh..how about how common is body
> > sculpting (sp?) in 205x.
>
> I would say quite common. As an alternate form of weight control, what
> about advancements on the artificial foodstuffs we're starting to see now.
> Things like "Olean" and this new backwards sugar molecule.
>
> You could use all of the soy food flavorings common to the SR fiction, but
> use a non-digestible base. Eat like a pig and never gain a pound. Of
> course, you wouldn't last long eating only this stuff, but if you can't
> afford surgery...
>
If the point is eating and not takibg weight, there are those specialised
illusionist: it looks like food, smell like food, taste like food, but
it's -just- magic (and, of course, expensive)

ChYlD
aka david

Message no. 68 At 08:46 PM 6/5/98 -0400, you wrote:

> I did with my very first character. Now Kid Stealth was a character
>that had an unusual cyber. For those who haven't read those stories he
>had cyber legs made like a velocirapter's.

Now that was a street sam I really feared. And while I'm not really a big
fan of Stackpole (I won't get into that here), I really like Kid Stealth.
He was one of the big reasons I bought the Wolf & Raven anthology. He was
the original SR Murder Machine!

Erik J.

"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."

Message no. 69 Once upon a time, Erik Jameson wrote;

>At 08:46 PM 6/5/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>> I did with my very first character. Now Kid Stealth was a character
>>that had an unusual cyber. For those who haven't read those stories he
>>had cyber legs made like a velocirapter's.
>
>
>Now that was a street sam I really feared. And while I'm not really a big
>fan of Stackpole (I won't get into that here), I really like Kid Stealth.
>He was one of the big reasons I bought the Wolf & Raven anthology. He was
>the original SR Murder Machine!

He was a real master of death all right. The only Sammie I've heard
of with a forensic skill!

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
answered to another name, because if another discovered their real name,
it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23

Message no. 70 >
> Once upon a time, Erik Jameson wrote;
>
> >At 08:46 PM 6/5/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >> I did with my very first character. Now Kid Stealth was a character
> >>that had an unusual cyber. For those who haven't read those stories he
> >>had cyber legs made like a velocirapter's.
> >
> >
> >Now that was a street sam I really feared. And while I'm not really a big
> >fan of Stackpole (I won't get into that here), I really like Kid Stealth.
> >He was one of the big reasons I bought the Wolf & Raven anthology. He was
> >the original SR Murder Machine!
>
> He was a real master of death all right. The only Sammie I've heard
> of with a forensic skill!
>
Heh..I too loved Kid Stealth, particulary at the time, because alot of
what he had didn't exist. (Many of my orignal house rules and toys, came
from him actually). I've often though I'd like to see "real" stats for
these guys, but decided it would take away from the mystique.
Heh..Raven,Wolf,Valerie, and Kid Stealth have showed up in my campaign a
few time. (As background coloring). And once long ago, I had a GM use
Tiger and Iron Mike as NPC's we went in with.
I just love his no-nonsese attitude. It works well to contrast Wolf's.
Heh..I wonder if Stackpole would ever write Kid Stealth stories. :)

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The universe doesn't have laws, it has habits. And habits can be broken.

Message no. 71 >But to bring this into shadowrun.. reconstructive surgery/cyber/bio
>for altering people's looks. How common is that in 2050?

The Seattle Sourcebook lists the body shops (e.g. "Body+Tech") contained in
various malls. There are quite a few of them, many in lower-middle income
neighborhoods like Auburn. From this, I'd say that body modification is
pretty comon in 2050.

Wordman

Message no. 72 >> Re: Shadowrun Fashion (Erik Jameson , Thu 12:12)
>
>> Fashion designers have been trying for years to bring elements of
"S&M" and
>> latex and leather into more mainstream fashion. They've pretty much
>> failed. But recently, S&M has gained a lot of public awareness; even my
>> parents have heard of it, and it's been mentioned on prime time network
>> sitcoms in the last year or two.

Oo. Random thought: Betty Page posergang.

Wordman

Message no. 73 Once upon a time, Wordman wrote;

>Oo. Random thought: Betty Page posergang.

I see enough of that at Gothic clubs.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

"If I was born in the 17th century, I wouldn't have to turtle wax the
van."
-Azreal Abyss, Goth Talk (SNL)

I am MC23

Message no. 74 Quoth MC23 (1726 09-06-98 NZT):

>>Oo. Random thought: Betty Page posergang.
>
>I see enough of that at Gothic clubs.

Question: who or what the hell is Betty Page?

Danyel Woods
9604801@********.ac.nz
Who believes that the only dumb question is the one you don't
ask...

Message no. 75 Once upon a time, Danyel N Woods wrote;

>Quoth MC23 (1726 09-06-98 NZT):
>
>>>Oo. Random thought: Betty Page posergang.
>>
>>I see enough of that at Gothic clubs.
>
>Question: who or what the hell is Betty Page?

Pin up model of the 40's. Olivia uses her image in a lot of her art
and Rocketeer (the comic not the movie) used her as well. Irving Klaw
filmed her a lot especially in softcore bondage and the like. A lot of
comic conventions now hold look a like contests of her. Most likely you
have seen her picture somewhere and not known it.

-MC23, who still needs his third Diva for his Trinity with Marilyn and
Betty-

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