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Message no. 1
From: zebulingod@*******.net (Zebulin)
Subject: Shadowrun Four
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:25:35 -0700
Alright people, I'd like to take a moment to address this rumor that there's
going to be a Fourth Edition of Shadowrun.

Okay, so it's not a rumor. It's actually going to happen.

This has upset some people, and made others very happy.

While we're waiting for it to arrive, Wizkids and some others (perhaps not
really respecting their NDAs, I don't know, I'm not a playtester) have been
releasing tidbits of information about this new edition. Suffice to say that
some of it really rocks the foundations of what some people believe the Game
Is All About. This has led to arguments, flamewars, bad blood and loss of
friendships (in one, not so notable, case).

++++Bit and pieces, mind you.++++

Now, we all know Shadowrun Four is going to happen. We all have our own
ideas of what Shadowrun Oughtta Be. We'll all have opinions about what
changes are being made.

All I ask is this:

Unless you've read the whole thing, maybe twice, why don't you step back,
take a deep breath, and just realise that you aren't getting the whole
story. Very probably, you aren't even getting the real story, or you're
hearing parts that have been blown WAY out of proportion.

Before you dismiss this new version out of hand, take the time to actually
read the book (when it becomes available).

I don't expect you to buy it right away, (lord knows, it's an expensive
book) but at least give it a read at the local bookstore.

I am going to buy a copy, for good or ill, when it becomes available. If you
happen to live close to Portland, Oregon, and you aren't sure whether you're
actually going to want it, come on over and I'll let you read my copy (when
it becomes available). I'm not going to give a kneejerk reaction, or judge
unfairly, without reading the whole book. I'd suggest you do the same.

Until then, just breathe...

AIM: zebulingod
ICQ: 21932827
WEB: http://www.zebulin.com/
MSN: zebulingod
YIM: zebulingod
SRGC: SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ !B UB IE+
RN+ STK++ W- dk+ ri++ m-(d++) gm++ M- P++
Message no. 2
From: kelvaris@***********.us (Jeff)
Subject: Shadowrun Four
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:51:33 -0800
Shadow Responded:

The only problem with this ideology is that if we wait for them to release
it before voicing our complaints/suggestions/ideas it is too late. And are
we supposed to drop $40 on a book sight unseen and just hoped FanPro got it
right?

We all love the idea of Shadowrun, we all believe that the crew at FanPro
love Shadowrun. And like anything we love we are passionate about it and
want to see it done right. Saying we should buy the book before making the
decision is saying to make our decision before reading it. The only real
power we have is to buy it, or not buy it. If we buy it then we are saying
it is good, weather we believe that or not.

So you are saying on one hand to not make a decision until we have read it,
but on the other hand you are saying to make a decision before we have read
it.

I want Shadowrun to be great, and if it was going to be great than some of
the info they have released would have hinted at that greatness. Instead
everything that the FAQ's and the Playtesters have said has hinted at
disaster. Yet when anyone says this all the people at Fanpro fall back on
the "you haven't seen the whole thing so you don't know how it's going to
look, therefore your opinion is wrong".

Ok I haven't seen the whole thing. But I don't have to know all the rules to
know if I like them or not. Just like I can tell if I am going to like a
movie by watching a trailer, or by who wrote it.

You don't have to know the whole story to know you won't like the ending.

-----------

I am going to buy a copy, for good or ill, when it becomes available. If you
happen to live close to Portland, Oregon, and you aren't sure whether you're
actually going to want it, come on over and I'll let you read my copy (when
it becomes available). I'm not going to give a kneejerk reaction, or judge
unfairly, without reading the whole book. I'd suggest you do the same.

Until then, just breathe...

AIM: zebulingod
ICQ: 21932827
WEB: http://www.zebulin.com/
MSN: zebulingod
YIM: zebulingod
SRGC: SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ !B UB IE+
RN+ STK++ W- dk+ ri++ m-(d++) gm++ M- P++
Message no. 3
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Shadowrun Four
Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 18:36:59 -0700
On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:25:35 -0700
"Zebulin" <zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:
> >
> Before you dismiss this new version out of hand, take the time to actually
> read the book (when it becomes available).
>
> I don't expect you to buy it right away, (lord knows, it's an expensive
> book) but at least give it a read at the local bookstore.
>
I am buying several. I will mail one free of charge to one person on the list
who really 'can't afford it'

Contact me when it comes out
--Anders
Message no. 4
From: zebulingod@*******.net (Zebulin)
Subject: Shadowrun Four
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:39:14 -0700
Jeff wrote:
#
#The only problem with this ideology is that if we wait for
#them to release it before voicing our
#complaints/suggestions/ideas it is too late. And are we
#supposed to drop $40 on a book sight unseen and just hoped
#FanPro got it right?
#

Not at all. Reread what I said, and you'll see that that's not what I said
at all. And besides, at this point, it is "too late" if what you're looking
for are changes to Shadowrun 4. It was "too late" when you didn't get to
playtest and give your feedback. *shrug*

#We all love the idea of Shadowrun, we all believe that the
#crew at FanPro love Shadowrun. And like anything we love we
#are passionate about it and want to see it done right. Saying
#we should buy the book before making the decision is saying to
#make our decision before reading it. The only real power we
#have is to buy it, or not buy it. If we buy it then we are
#saying it is good, weather we believe that or not.
#

I didn't say to buy the book. Again, re-read what I said.

#So you are saying on one hand to not make a decision until we
#have read it, but on the other hand you are saying to make a
#decision before we have read it.
#

Nope, I didn't.

#I want Shadowrun to be great, and if it was going to be great
#than some of the info they have released would have hinted at
#that greatness. Instead everything that the FAQ's and the
#Playtesters have said has hinted at disaster. Yet when anyone
#says this all the people at Fanpro fall back on the "you
#haven't seen the whole thing so you don't know how it's going
#to look, therefore your opinion is wrong".
#

Which I happen to agree with. If you're going to make a "final" opinion
based on partial facts, then the opinion, in my opinion, is wrong.

#Ok I haven't seen the whole thing. But I don't have to know
#all the rules to know if I like them or not. Just like I can
#tell if I am going to like a movie by watching a trailer, or
#by who wrote it.
#

Do you judge a book by its cover, too?

#You don't have to know the whole story to know you won't like
#the ending.
#

Perhaps not. But if all you see is a tiny portion, and you miss out on the
bigger picture, then the one who lost out isn't me, my friend, it's you.

Zebulin

AIM: zebulingod
ICQ: 21932827
WEB: http://www.zebulin.com/
MSN: zebulingod
YIM: zebulingod
SRGC: SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ !B UB IE+
RN+ STK++ W- dk+ ri++ m-(d++) gm++ M- P++
Message no. 5
From: failhelm@*****.com (Failhelm)
Subject: Shadowrun Four
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 23:31:35 -0700
On 7/4/05, Zebulin <zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:
> [snip]
> All I ask is this:
>
> Unless you've read the whole thing, maybe twice, why don't you step back,
> take a deep breath, and just realise that you aren't getting the whole
> story. Very probably, you aren't even getting the real story, or you're
> hearing parts that have been blown WAY out of proportion.

This is typical of role-players today, so it was no surprise to me.
Like many of us I don't just play one RPG and I don't always play the
latest edition, see D&D. I don't feel compelled to play a latest
edition until I have a chance to evaluate it on its own terms, and I
don't care if its in its 15th edition, a higher edition number doesn't
always mean better. Give FanPro staff more credit, they know this, but
that doesn't mean that they should ignore a feeling or a percieved
need to refine or change.

RPG's are not system dependent, so it doesn't matter to me what they
want to do "to" the system or what modifications they will make. I
will either like it, or I won't like it, FanPro isn't stupid, they
know that every time a company releases a new RPG "edition" it makes
some of the old schooler's mad. You cannot honestly expect any company
to not come out with new editions for eternity. Companies change
hands, those in charge change and opinions progress (or digress, see
D&D).

RPGs are evolutionary by nature, just look at the large number of
modifications and house rules presented here on this list. It's the
job of FanPro to figure out and make decisions about what is best for
the Shadowrun system as a whole, and its our job to decide if we like
it or not.

Get pissed, get happy, buy the books or don't, it will not alter the
what the RPG industry is and what it will remain to be.

> Before you dismiss this new version out of hand, take the time to actually
> read the book (when it becomes available).
>
> I don't expect you to buy it right away, (lord knows, it's an expensive
> book) but at least give it a read at the local bookstore.

I don't mind the books being expensive, provided they last. The days
of a book lasting 30 years and costing only $15 are long gone, kiss
them goodbye.

- Failhelm
Message no. 6
From: zebulingod@*******.net (Zebulin)
Subject: Shadowrun Four
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 23:33:36 -0700
Anders Swenson wrote:

#I am buying several. I will mail one free of charge to one
#person on the list who really 'can't afford it'
#
#Contact me when it comes out
#--Anders
#

I considered doing a round robin with a copy or two, so people who can't
look through it without buying it, or whatever, could have a chance to
peruse it.

Problem is, those usually have a bad habit of losing books.

Zebulin

AIM: zebulingod
ICQ: 21932827
WEB: http://www.zebulin.com/
MSN: zebulingod
YIM: zebulingod
SRGC: SR1 SR2++ SR3+++ h+ b+++ !B UB IE+
RN+ STK++ W- dk+ ri++ m-(d++) gm++ M- P++
Message no. 7
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Shadowrun Four
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:40:31 +0200
According to Jeff, on 05-07-2005 00:51 the word on the street was...

> Shadow Responded:

Please do not top-post, thank you :)

> The only problem with this ideology is that if we wait for them to release
> it before voicing our complaints/suggestions/ideas it is too late. And are
> we supposed to drop $40 on a book sight unseen and just hoped FanPro got it
> right?

Don't people do this all the time? Yes, sometimes you burn your fingers,
but oftentimes, you don't. Part of it is having faith in whoever makes
the game -- I know I'm more weary of certain companies than I am of
FanPro...

> So you are saying on one hand to not make a decision until we have read it,
> but on the other hand you are saying to make a decision before we have read
> it.

I think he was saying not to denounce (or praise, but probably denounce)
the game until you've read it, and preferably until you have let its
impressions sink in.

> I want Shadowrun to be great, and if it was going to be great than some of
> the info they have released would have hinted at that greatness. Instead
> everything that the FAQ's and the Playtesters have said has hinted at
> disaster.

I wouldn't say that. I'm not going to tell you to wait until it's
released to see how great it is, but IMHO it certainly doesn't suck.

> Ok I haven't seen the whole thing. But I don't have to know all the rules to
> know if I like them or not. Just like I can tell if I am going to like a
> movie by watching a trailer, or by who wrote it.

Be careful -- I thought Hellboy was going to be a cool movie based on
the trailer, but I didn't really feel that way anymore after I watched
it. Not that I thought it sucked, but let's say I'm glad I borrowed the
DVD instead of paying money to the cinema for this movie.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Shadowrun Four
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:44:11 +0200
According to Failhelm, on 05-07-2005 08:31 the word on the street was...

> RPG's are not system dependent, so it doesn't matter to me what they
> want to do "to" the system or what modifications they will make.

That's not really true, is it? If the system is horrible, the game is
not as much fun to play as when the system is good. I don't like most
d20 games, regardless of their setting, because I don't like the d20
mechanics -- this has put me off buying the Babylon 5 RPG by Mongoose,
for example; and on a related note, I do have the Chameleon Eclectic
version, but the system of that is also not one that encourages me to
play it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Shadowrun Four
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 08:36:34 -0700
On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 23:33:36 -0700
"Zebulin" <zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:
> Anders Swenson wrote:
>
> #I am buying several. I will mail one free of charge to one
> #person on the list who really 'can't afford it'
> #
> #Contact me when it comes out
> #--Anders
> #
>
> I considered doing a round robin with a copy or two, so people who can't
> look through it without buying it, or whatever, could have a chance to
> peruse it.
>
> Problem is, those usually have a bad habit of losing books.
>
> Zebulin
>
Hence my approach!
--Anders
Message no. 10
From: snicker@*********.net (snicker@*********.net)
Subject: Shadowrun Four
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 15:38:06 +0000
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anders Swenson [mailto:anders@**********.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 5, 2005 03:36 PM
> To: 'Shadowrun Discussion'
> Subject: Re: Shadowrun Four
>
> On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 23:33:36 -0700
> "Zebulin" <zebulingod@*******.net> wrote:
> > Anders Swenson wrote:
> >
> > #I am buying several. I will mail one free of charge to one
> > #person on the list who really 'can't afford it'
> > #
> > #Contact me when it comes out
> > #--Anders
> > #
> >
> > I considered doing a round robin with a copy or two, so people who can't
> > look through it without buying it, or whatever, could have a chance to
> > peruse it.
> >
> > Problem is, those usually have a bad habit of losing books.
> >
> > Zebulin
> >
> Hence my approach!
> --Anders

The humour for me in all of this, is that I'm just now starting to read third edition....

*snicker*
Message no. 11
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Shadowrun Four
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 08:39:35 -0700
On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 11:44:11 +0200
Gurth <gurth@******.nl> wrote:
>>>
> That's not really true, is it? If the system is horrible, the game is not
> as much fun to play as when the system is good.

Yeah, look at SR I!
--Anders
Message no. 12
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Shadowrun Four
Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 18:53:21 +0200
According to Anders Swenson, on 05-07-2005 17:39 the word on the street
was...

>>That's not really true, is it? If the system is horrible, the game is not
>>as much fun to play as when the system is good.
>
>
> Yeah, look at SR I!

I can't say I disliked SR1, but perhaps that was also because the only
other RPG I'd ever played up until then was AD&D 2nd edition :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
de limme
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 13
From: weberm@*******.net (Michael Weber)
Subject: Shadowrun Four
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:57:08 -0400
snicker@*********.net wrote:

>The humour for me in all of this, is that I'm just now starting to read third
edition....

You too?

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Shadowrun Four, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!