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Message no. 1
From: SCROSE <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Shadowrun is not Cyberpunk
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 03:04:26 -0600
Avenger wrote:
>
> In article <34EF142A.E86C4262@****.com>, s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
> waffled & burbled about Codes of personal conduct



> <snip>
> >What does cyberpunk have to do with Shadowrun?
> <snippus>
>
> A lot. A heck of a lot. Not least is the fact that it is based upon
> the cyberpunk genre. A lot of people make the simple mistake of
> thinking that Cyberpunk 2020 is /the/ Cyberpunk, it isn't, it is a part
> of the genre that is Cyberpunk.

Somehow the very next thing I stated was left out MAGIC CHANGES
EVERYTHING. The very nature of the mix of
magic and tech in Shadowrun is a totally unique genre having traits from
many things the world of cyberpunk and Fantasy, myths and legends. I see
little to no relationship between the magical awakened world of
shadowrun and any other literary and/or gaming environment...
<snip>
> Hope that helps.

Not at all as we don't agree and lets just leave it at that. I see the
6th world as wonderful and unique genre and those who see awakened world
as only a world of tech and corps IMO are missing a major element of the
environment. I could care less about cyberpunk 2020 or most things
related to it. I run and play shadowrun in very magical and very high
tech world nuff said.
Message no. 2
From: Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun is not Cyberpunk
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:23:38 +0000
SCROSE <scrose@****.COM> once wrote,

(snipped)

> Somehow the very next thing I stated was left out MAGIC CHANGES
> EVERYTHING. The very nature of the mix of
> magic and tech in Shadowrun is a totally unique genre having traits from
> many things the world of cyberpunk and Fantasy, myths and legends. I see
> little to no relationship between the magical awakened world of
> shadowrun and any other literary and/or gaming environment...

(snipped)

> Not at all as we don't agree and lets just leave it at that. I see the
> 6th world as wonderful and unique genre and those who see awakened world
> as only a world of tech and corps IMO are missing a major element of the
> environment. I could care less about cyberpunk 2020 or most things
> related to it. I run and play shadowrun in very magical and very high
> tech world nuff said.


Hourray! There's Magic in Shadowrun. Cool. Deny that it's cyberpunk?
What the hell is up with that? Shadowrun IS cyberpunk! Just because we
add that mystical element doesn't mean that cyberpunk dies off with the
elves. Add a couple of hobbits and a mage to "Neuromancer" and you still
get a cyberpunk novel (albeit a weird one).

Now let's see... the principal elements of cyberpunk are...

Tech: Oh yeah, we got some here...

Interface with a World-spanning computer web: The Matrix, pure and simple

Oppresive Megacorporations: Where ya been? Of course, we have those

Bleak, decadent urban atmosphere: Ever been in 2059 Redmond? Or Chicago?

Violence: Hey... what's the focal point of Shadowrun? Ops making money by
killing/busting/stealing things.

Now... we have orks, trolls, spirits, elves, and Magic with a capital
"M"... it still ain't Earthdawn. Looks to me like all those fantasy
elements work in tandem, inside the cyberpunk mentality, not apart from
it. Have you seen any elves in green tights running around with a bow in
the middle of Seattle lately? Or those big orks running them thunda
beasts out the Salish lands. When's the next flight of dragons? Elves
wear leather and carry guns. Ork are armored beasts that can tear your
head off, and carry bigger guns. Dragons don't give a shit about
flights...They're savvier and greedier than Bill Gates. And they'll
rather send a flight of FB Eagles than going in themselves.

Elves are greedy, megalomaniac bastards, with police-states. Orks
are terrorists, fighting for their freedom. Dwarves are...are... they're
dwarves. Spirits and Dragons buy corporations. Humans and Trolls run the
shadows, filled up with cyber. All those cutsey, lovesy fantasy elements
turn into heartless bitches. Ta dam, welcome to cyberpunk, whether you
like it or not.

Trinity
------------------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca
This message was brought to you by The Crystal Method - "Vegas"

"Life is a blur"
Message no. 3
From: Paul Yan <bushidoboy@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun is not Cyberpunk
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:04:28 -0800
S C ROSE, I somewhat agree to what you are
saying, but I wouldn't dismiss CP2020 totally.
Yes, the factor of magic is a major difference
of SR and CP2020, but both games are about
characters fighting corps, cops, and possibly
each other for survival and power. Hope,
well... I think I'll leave that one alone.
;)!!! (If you want to know some more IMO's,
check out personal codes and conduct on the
SRlist.)
===
======[====================>
P.H.Y. A.K.A. BUSHIDOBOY@**********.COM/
"HIIIYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"

I'm not offended by all the dumb blond jokes
because I know I'm
not dumb... and I also know that I'm not blond.
-- Dolly Parton




_________________________________________________________
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Message no. 4
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun is not Cyberpunk
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 00:31:01 -0500
This topic is discussed to its ultimate conclusion in question E3 of the
ShadowFAQ:

http://pobox.com/~wordman/ShadowFAQ,html

Wordman

"Eternity is two people and a roast turkey."
-- James Dent
Message no. 5
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun is not Cyberpunk
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:33:17 +1000
Wordman writes:

>This topic is discussed to its ultimate conclusion in question E3 of the
>ShadowFAQ:
>
>http://pobox.com/~wordman/ShadowFAQ,html

^ . maybe?

[OT but still relevant] Wordman, have you ever thought of putting anchor
tags at the section headings of the ShadowFAQ? Then when you do these topic
killers, you could give direct access:
e.g.
http://pobox.com/~wordman/ShadowFAQ.html#E3

Just a thought... And for everyone else, to recap the gist of the
ShadowFAQ's answer to this:

"Is SR cyberpunk?"
a) Yes it is.
b) No it isn't.
c) No, Cyberpunk is another game system.

Pick the answer you prefer...

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 6
From: SCROSE <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun is not Cyberpunk
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:25:19 -0600
Frank Pelletier wrote:
>
> SCROSE <scrose@****.COM> once wrote,
>
> (snipped)
>
> > Somehow the very next thing I stated was left out MAGIC CHANGES
> > EVERYTHING. The very nature of the mix of
> > magic and tech in Shadowrun is a totally unique genre having traits from
> > many things the world of cyberpunk and Fantasy, myths and legends. I see
> > little to no relationship between the magical awakened world of
> > shadowrun and any other literary and/or gaming environment...
>
> (
>
> Hourray! There's Magic in Shadowrun. Cool. Deny that it's cyberpunk?
> What the hell is up with that? Shadowrun IS cyberpunk! Just because we
> add that mystical element doesn't mean that cyberpunk dies off with the
> elves. Add a couple of hobbits and a mage to "Neuromancer" and you still
> get a cyberpunk novel (albeit a weird one).
> Now let's see... the principal elements of cyberpunk are...
>

>
> Now... we have orks, trolls, spirits, elves, and Magic with a capital
> "M"... it still ain't Earthdawn. Looks to me like all those fantasy
> elements work in tandem, inside the cyberpunk mentality, not apart from
> it. Have you seen any elves in green tights running around with a bow in
> the middle of Seattle lately? Or those big orks running them thunda
> beasts out the Salish lands. When's the next flight of dragons? Elves
> wear leather and carry guns. Ork are armored beasts that can tear your
> head off, and carry bigger guns. Dragons don't give a shit about
> flights...They're savvier and greedier than Bill Gates. And they'll
> rather send a flight of FB Eagles than going in themselves.

This statement in and of itself supports my opinion thanks shadowrun can
not be lumped into cyberpunk or fantasy for that matter

> Elves are greedy, megalomaniac bastards, with police-states. Orks
> are terrorists, fighting for their freedom. Dwarves are...are... they're
> dwarves. Spirits and Dragons buy corporations. Humans and Trolls run the
> shadows, filled up with cyber. All those cutsey, lovesy fantasy elements
> turn into heartless bitches. Ta dam, welcome to cyberpunk, whether you
> like it or not.
>
> Trinity
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Frank Pelletier
> Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca
> This message was brought to you by The Crystal Method - "Vegas"
>
> "Life is a blur"
Message no. 7
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun is not Cyberpunk
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:49:47 +0000
And verily, did SCROSE hastily scribble thusly...
Quite a lot of lines snipped...

|This statement in and of itself supports my opinion thanks shadowrun can
|not be lumped into cyberpunk or fantasy for that matter

Oi!
#
NO! Mussssty restrain myself....
Must leave it to the GridSec....
AAAAARGH!

*** Connecion closed by foreign host. ***

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 8
From: Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun is not Cyberpunk
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:58:56 +0000
SCROSE <scrose@****.COM> once wrote,

> > Now... we have orks, trolls, spirits, elves, and Magic with a capital
> > "M"... it still ain't Earthdawn. Looks to me like all those fantasy
> > elements work in tandem, inside the cyberpunk mentality, not apart from
> > it. Have you seen any elves in green tights running around with a bow in
> > the middle of Seattle lately? Or those big orks running them thunda
> > beasts out the Salish lands. When's the next flight of dragons? Elves
> > wear leather and carry guns. Ork are armored beasts that can tear your
> > head off, and carry bigger guns. Dragons don't give a shit about
> > flights...They're savvier and greedier than Bill Gates. And they'll
> > rather send a flight of FB Eagles than going in themselves.
>
> This statement in and of itself supports my opinion thanks shadowrun can
> not be lumped into cyberpunk or fantasy for that matter
>

<looks around, confused>... Huh, like. Hmmm... <thoughtful look> But it's
pretty clear that... I meant, you know. <confused>. I ... I... I don't
know. Huh. Is this guy for real? I mean. Huh... Like...

<walks away, babbling>

Trinity
------------------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca
This message was brought to you by Mobb Deep - "Hell on Earth"

"Life is a blur"
Message no. 9
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun is not Cyberpunk
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:59:38 -0500
I'm afraid that I have to step in as list.member.original.grumpy, also
known as list.member.thread-vigilante...

It's obvious that SC Rose refuses to believe that even with the injection
of fantasy elements, Shadowrun does properly fall into the
cyberpunk/post-modernist genres.

So I ask that this thread be snipped. It seems obvious that SC Rose can't
be persuaded to change his mind, and the same for us. It is his right to
remain ignorant, or for the rest of us to remain ignorant (depending on our
point of view in this matter) if that is what he/we *chose* to do.
Considering that this thread has been hacked to death for many years now,
and despite amusing stories from David, I vote that it be taken off RN.

If you still want to debate SC Rose (as I'm considering), I would humbly
suggest taking it private.

Thank you.

This has been a Grumpy Vigilante production (which in no way is associated
with GridSec).

Erik J.
Message no. 10
From: SCROSE <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun is not Cyberpunk
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:43:17 -0600
Erik Jameson wrote:

> It's obvious that SC Rose refuses to believe that even with the injection
> of fantasy elements, Shadowrun does properly fall into the
> cyberpunk/post-modernist genres.

On this I quite agree IMO I personally find Shadowrun hard to categorize
I'll gladly take this private
my opinion is not likely to change.

> So I ask that this thread be snipped. It seems obvious that SC Rose can't
> be persuaded to change his mind, and the same for us. It is his right to
> remain ignorant, or for the rest of us to remain ignorant (depending on our
> point of view in this matter) if that is what he/we *chose* to do.
> Considering that this thread has been hacked to death for many years now,
> and despite amusing stories from David, I vote that it be taken off RN.

To this we can agree I'm sorry that opened this can of worms while it
might be worth talking about to some extent. Everyone has stated A
number of opinions and why they have them. We can and should agree to
disagree in RN. This debate can be done in private for the people who
are not bored with it. Personally I'm getting somewhat bored with it
this topic and reading this mailing list does take time that I really do
not have to spare at this time. I'm working on some personal projects
such as a couple of web pages and what not so might be dropping this
list for a time.
Message no. 11
From: Wordman <wordman@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun is not Cyberpunk
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 11:46:03 -0500
> [OT but still relevant] Wordman, have you ever thought of putting anchor
> tags at the section headings of the ShadowFAQ? Then when you do these topic
> killers, you could give direct access:
> e.g.
> http://pobox.com/~wordman/ShadowFAQ.html#E3

Actually, the anchor tags have been there for a long time. The problem is
with the virtual URL service I'm using (pobox.com). For some reason, if you
put anchors on the tag, by they time the URL is redirected, they get lost.
If you add the tags to the current real URL, they work fine, e.g.

http://www.flashpt.com/~lward/ShadowFAQ.html#E3

(Hmm, E3 seems to show up twice, bringing you to E4! Oops!) Anyway, the
point is that the anchors are there. I guess another letter to pobox.com is
in order.

Wordman
Message no. 12
From: Paul Yan <bushidoboy@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Shadowrun is not Cyberpunk
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:35:06 -0800
It's clear everyone has their own opinion
whether or not SR is/is not cyberpunk. I
frankly can't care less anymore. Everyone has
made valid points both for and against.
Admittedly SR has many facets that can make it
categorized in many things, but do we really all
care? We all play and enjoy the game and love
discussing all the intracacies of it. Whether
it is a cyberpunk, or fantasy, or post-modern
violence tactical thing-a-ma-bob, it means
jack-sh*t! (Pardon me for my vehemnence.) Now
let's let the subject RIP and go to something
new. Like is it amoral to torture corp execs
for info by making them listen to bad music from
the 20th century i.e. Gerardo?
===
======[====================>
P.H.Y. A.K.A. BUSHIDOBOY@**********.COM/
"HIIIYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"

The statistics on sanity are that one out of
every four Americans
are suffering from some form of mental illness.
Think of your
three best friends. If they are OK, then it's
you.
-- Rita Mae Brown




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