Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	Roger Ramirez <chariot@*******.net>
Subject:	Shadowrun Novels
Date:	Fri, 15 Mar 1996 13:15:39 -0500 (EST)

Message no. 1 I believe I have posted a similar question before so please excuse me if I did.

What are good Shadowrun Novels. The only thing I've read so far has been
Buring Bright (incredible), 2XS (too cool), and (damnit I can't remember the
name) the one about all the immortal elves.

What I would like know is...
-How is the Secrets of Power Trilogy?
-What books has Nigel Findly written for shadowrun besides 2XS, Shadowplay,
and House of the Sun?
-Which books, except for 2XS and House of the Sun dealt with Derek Montgomery?
-What other books by Nigel Findly can you recommend? (I just finished
reading 2XS, can you tell I like his writing?)

All answers will be greatly appreciated.
Chariot
--
chariot@*******.net
Check out my home page at...
http://www.icanect.net/~chariot
Now finally with some content. (although very little)

From:	Roger Ramirez <chariot@*******.net>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Novels
Date:	Fri, 15 Mar 1996 13:25:00 -0500 (EST)

Message no. 2 At 01:15 PM 3/15/96 -0500, you wrote:
>I believe I have posted a similar question before so please excuse me if I did.
>
>What are good Shadowrun Novels. The only thing I've read so far has been
>Buring Bright (incredible), 2XS (too cool), and (damnit I can't remember the
>name) the one about all the immortal elves.
>
>What I would like know is...
>-How is the Secrets of Power Trilogy?
>-What books has Nigel Findly written for shadowrun besides 2XS, Shadowplay,
>and House of the Sun?
>-Which books, except for 2XS and House of the Sun dealt with Derek Montgomery?
>-What other books by Nigel Findly can you recommend? (I just finished
>reading 2XS, can you tell I like his writing?)
>
Whoops... I forgot to ask one more thing.

How are the books written by Nyx Smith? I've never heard anything about this
writer and I would really like to know. If you do like this author, please
recommend one of his books to read.

Thank You,
Chariot

--
chariot@*******.net
Check out my home page at...
http://www.icanect.net/~chariot
Now finally with some content. (although very little)

From:	neon@******.backbone.olemiss.edu (Mike Broadwater)
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Novels
Date:	Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:30:28 -0600

Message no. 3 >-How is the Secrets of Power Trilogy?
I thought it was ok. Not great, but good enough to read.

>-What books has Nigel Findly written for shadowrun besides 2XS, Shadowplay,
>and House of the Sun?
I believe he also wrote Lone Wolf, along with a number of the SR game books

>-Which books, except for 2XS and House of the Sun dealt with Derek Montgomery?
None. And, not to sound cold, I wouldn't expect any any time soon. I don't
think anyone in FASA is going to pick up where Mr. Findley left off.

I've got a question for Jake Koke, if your still reading this group:
What did you do to get special thanks for the CFS book?
thanks

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and
duct tape to make them stop."

From:	jkoke@****.edu (Jak Koke)
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels
Date:	Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:07:47 -0800

Message no. 4 >I've got a question for Jake Koke, if your still reading this group:
>What did you do to get special thanks for the CFS book?
>thanks

A number of ideas from my novel, DEAD AIR, were used in the Calfree book.
About half to two-thirds of the LA stuff is mine (though it was written up
by someone else) plus the gypsies and some of the Shasta stuff in the
Northern Crescent, again written up in the sourcebook by someone else.
Also, some of the "players" are minor characters from my novel, I think,
though I'm not sure how many actually made it into the CFS book. My copy
is in the mail; I've only seen an earlier version.

BTW, Mike, FYI it's Jak (pronounced Jack) and not Jake. My parents were
cruel. :)

As far as commentary on Nyx Smith's novels go: I happen to think his
writing is decent, but there are a wide variety of opinions among list
members. His prose is very stylistic and he uses present tense throughout
which can be annoying until you get used to it. His three books, Striper
Assassin, Fade to Black and Who Hunts the Hunter are interrelated and have
many of the same characters, including of course, Striper herself who is a
shapeshifter. I'd recommend picking up the first one, Striper Assassin or
Fade to Black. Fade to Black is a better book, imho, but Striper Assassin
introduces Striper and the other characters.

--Jak

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jak Koke | jkoke@****.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	TopCat <topcat@******.net>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Novels
Date:	Fri, 15 Mar 1996 17:52:02 -0600

Message no. 5 >What are good Shadowrun Novels.

I suggest Nyx Smith's books. If you're big into immortal elves, then The
Secrets of Power and Nosferatu will be faves. If you'd like to get a taste
of several authors, then I suggest Into the Shadows. It'll let you pick
which ones appeal to you most (though doesn't have all the authors in it).

>-How is the Secrets of Power Trilogy?

I hated it. But that's me, a lot of other people loved it. Its written in
the nice, fluffy style of Shadowrun instead of the harder-edge stuff. I had
to fight to make myself finish reading it.

(personal opinion coming, please watch your step)

The best writing that I've seen from FASA was Michael Stackpole's. Problem
there is that he's the main Battletech writer. Which means no Shadowrun
stuff (except for a couple stories in Into the Shadows). Any word as to him
maybe doing a full-length novel for SR someday?

------------------------------------------------------------
* Bob Ooton -- <topcat@******.net> *
* Golden Tiger Association -- Submission Fighting Team *
------------------------------------------------------------
* With the speed of a striking cobra he pulled his machine *
* pistol and jammed the muzzle against Mozart's nose. "I *
* put my gun on rock and roll, there nothing left of you *
* but ears, man." -- "Mozart in Mirrorshades" *
------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Lady Jestyr <s421539@*******.gu.edu.au>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels
Date:	Tue, 19 Mar 1996 20:44:22 +1000 (EST)

Message no. 6 > A number of ideas from my novel, DEAD AIR, were used in the Calfree book.
> About half to two-thirds of the LA stuff is mine (though it was written up
> by someone else) plus the gypsies and some of the Shasta stuff in the
> Northern Crescent, again written up in the sourcebook by someone else.
> Also, some of the "players" are minor characters from my novel, I think,
> though I'm not sure how many actually made it into the CFS book. My copy
> is in the mail; I've only seen an earlier version.

Well whoever wrote the stuff about the SanFran Bay area... much kudos.
("We're all getting paid by Ares, dah-di-dah-di-dah-dah" *grin*)

Lady Jestyr

------------------------------------------------------
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
------------------------------------------------------
Elle Holmes s421539@*****.student.gu.edu.au
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1503/
------------------------------------------------------
The opinions expressed are my own, unless you don't
agree with them, in which case they are my evil twin
sister's opinions.

From:	Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject:	Shadowrun Novels
Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:13:47 -0400

Message no. 7 I've read "Never Deal with a Dragon," "Choose Your Enemies Carefully,"
"The Changeling," "Streets of Blood," and "Stryper:
Assassin." Anybody
out there recommend any other books. I really liked "The Changeling" and
"Choose Your Enemies Carefully."

"The Changeling" was pretty dramatic.
It really gave you an unstereotyped troll who you could look at
objectively. I wonder if anyone out there has a campaign way after the
2050s, do you have more liberal minded views for the goblinized? Such as
"troll scientists" and "ork philosophers."

I didn't like "Stryper: Assassin" that much because it was full of a lot
of mindless killing and you didn't actually see what Tikki was really like
until the end when:
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
!
she is freed from the free spirit. So I was disappointed with the ending.

I'm not too keen on reading about deckers so I skipped a lot of chapters
in "Streets of Blood." I like using insect spirits in my campaigns, so is
that book aout the Big Bug Breakout in Chicago any good?

Thanks,

Dust

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Novels
Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:40:30 +0000

Message no. 8 > in "Streets of Blood." I like using insect spirits in my campaigns, so is
> that book aout the Big Bug Breakout in Chicago any good?

"Burning Bright" is a decent book. I found it incredible, but that
was because I read it BEFORE Bug city came out. It was really the
first book FASA tried in the SR universe to advance the world
storyline (something they have been doing with Btech for years, and
with great success right now....I can't wait for each novel in the
Twilight of the Clans series.)

In terms of bugs, You'll find that burning bright has mostly the
typical Chicago type of bugs, rather than the subtlety of Universal
Brotherhood. A cute blip about Mantis spirits, but no real
revelations.

MINOR SPOILER about a different novel....
!
!
!
!

af
f
h
fd
gf'df

d
f
sf

sd
sd

Okay

2XS, in addition to being the second greatest SR novel yet (second to
Changling) has bugs, in particular an insect shaman that tries a
particularly clever plan.

Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie

From:	Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Novels
Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:21:57 -0500

Message no. 9 At 10-Sep-97 wrote Dust:

>I'm not too keen on reading about deckers so I skipped a lot of chapters
>in "Streets of Blood." I like using insect spirits in my campaigns, so is
>that book aout the Big Bug Breakout in Chicago any good?

A must read IMO, go out and get it.

--
Barbie

One lived hour is still living.

From:	Tony Glinka <glinka@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Novels
Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:08:59 -0700

Message no. 10 Dust wrote:

> I've read "Never Deal with a Dragon," "Choose Your Enemies
Carefully,"
> "The Changeling," "Streets of Blood," and "Stryper:
Assassin." Anybody
> out there recommend any other books. I really liked "The Changeling" and
> "Choose Your Enemies Carefully."

My favorite is Burning Bright by Tom Dowd. I have read this a number of
times and so it is a "must read" in my opinion. I also liked 2XS and House of
the Sun, both by Nigel Findley.

Tony

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Novels
Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:50:58 +0100

Message no. 11 Brett Borger said on 8:40/10 Sep 97...

> "Burning Bright" is a decent book. I found it incredible, but that
> was because I read it BEFORE Bug city came out.

I read it because both Bug City and this list said it had some additional
info that would come in handy; I don't regret reading it, but it didn't
knock me off my feet in any way. The story is good, but the writing is
mediocre at best (he says, trying to sound like a real critic :) -- good
ideas, but not all that well executed. All of the above is IMHO, of
course.</disclaimer>

> It was really the first book FASA tried in the SR universe to advance
> the world storyline

Yep, and that was the part that made it work if you ask me. If it had been
a stand-alone novel, I probably would have regretted buying it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Well, I have no opinion about that, and I have no opinion about me...
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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From:	Stefan <casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Novels
Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:45:52 +0000

Message no. 12 > I've read "Never Deal with a Dragon," "Choose Your Enemies
Carefully,"
> "The Changeling," "Streets of Blood," and "Stryper:
Assassin." Anybody
> out there recommend any other books. I really liked "The Changeling" and
> "Choose Your Enemies Carefully."

I have read them ALL! Bow before me :) I hope my copy of the new Mel
Odom book comes this week ...

> "The Changeling" was pretty dramatic.
> It really gave you an unstereotyped troll who you could look at
> objectively. I wonder if anyone out there has a campaign way after the
> 2050s, do you have more liberal minded views for the goblinized? Such as
> "troll scientists" and "ork philosophers."

This book is a masterpiece in SR Novel history ... To bad Mr.Kubasik
have only written (or atleast published) one SR Novel .. But then
perhaps he is more of a Earthdawn and Battletech kinda writer.

Wish there was a sequeal to the Changeling but then perhaps that is
just me dreaming ...

> I didn't like "Stryper: Assassin" that much because it was full of a lot
> of mindless killing and you didn't actually see what Tikki was really like
> until the end when:

Didn't like it either ... Don't like Striper at all ... She feels
like a bad mid 80's action hero(in) ..

> I'm not too keen on reading about deckers so I skipped a lot of chapters
> in "Streets of Blood." I like using insect spirits in my campaigns, so is
> that book aout the Big Bug Breakout in Chicago any good?

We are talking about "Burning Bright" by Tom Dowd here I suppose ?
It is a good book. Not alot of deckers .. just him some friends and a
bunch of bugs ... It does not give away a whole lot about the bugs
but it is generally a good book about "how it is to live in the cirt
of bugs" ... Score: 3+

/Stefan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!" - Sinjin the decker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... E-Mail .............................. casanova@***.passagen.se ...
... HomePage .............................. http://hsl.home.ml.org ...
... ICQ .................................................. 1403212 ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Tyrell Hughes <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Novels
Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 1997 17:30:44 -0500

Message no. 13 Stefan wrote:
>
> > I've read "Never Deal with a Dragon," "Choose Your Enemies
Carefully,"
> > "The Changeling," "Streets of Blood," and "Stryper:
Assassin." Anybody
> > out there recommend any other books. I really liked "The Changeling"
and
> > "Choose Your Enemies Carefully."
>
> I have read them ALL! Bow before me :) I hope my copy of the new Mel
> Odom book comes this week ...
>
> > "The Changeling" was pretty dramatic.
> > It really gave you an unstereotyped troll who you could look at
> > objectively. I wonder if anyone out there has a campaign way after the
> > 2050s, do you have more liberal minded views for the goblinized? Such as
> > "troll scientists" and "ork philosophers."
>
> This book is a masterpiece in SR Novel history ... To bad Mr.Kubasik
> have only written (or atleast published) one SR Novel .. But then
> perhaps he is more of a Earthdawn and Battletech kinda writer.
>
> Wish there was a sequeal to the Changeling but then perhaps that is
> just me dreaming ...
>
> > I didn't like "Stryper: Assassin" that much because it was full of a
lot
> > of mindless killing and you didn't actually see what Tikki was really like
> > until the end when:
>
> Didn't like it either ... Don't like Striper at all ... She feels
> like a bad mid 80's action hero(in) ..
>
> > I'm not too keen on reading about deckers so I skipped a lot of chapters
> > in "Streets of Blood." I like using insect spirits in my campaigns,
so is
> > that book aout the Big Bug Breakout in Chicago any good?
>
> We are talking about "Burning Bright" by Tom Dowd here I suppose ?
> It is a good book. Not alot of deckers .. just him some friends and a
> bunch of bugs ... It does not give away a whole lot about the bugs
> but it is generally a good book about "how it is to live in the cirt
> of bugs" ... Score: 3+

I loved it,and the nuke didnt get me:)!
-Cheetohr,the toxic cheetah shaman who is half possesed by a dragonfly
spirit

From:	Craig S Dohmen <dohmen@*****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Novels
Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:37:07 -0400

Message no. 14 > From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Shadowrun Novels
> Date: Wednesday, September 10, 1997 4:40 AM

> 2XS, in addition to being the second greatest SR novel yet (second to
> Changling)

Aiee! Those are the two that I thought were utterly without merit. :)

--Craig

From:	Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Novels
Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:24:47 -0700

Message no. 15 ---Dust wrote:
>
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
> !
> !
> !
> !
> !
> !
> !
> !
> !
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I like using insect spirits in my campaigns, so is
> that book aout the Big Bug Breakout in Chicago any good?

Yes, Burning Bright was one of my favorite S/R novel. Also, if you
like insect spirits you should check out 2XS.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
Web Page: Poisoned Elves at www.primenet.com/~gamemstr

"You're calling me Bitch like it's a bad thing."
--> CrapGame during the Drive in the Country tournament
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com

From:	Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Novels
Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:29:22 -0700

Message no. 16 ---Tyrell Hughes wrote:
>
> I loved it,and the nuke didnt get me:)!

38 lines text just to get to this one line?!?

You need a little more practice at snipping quotes. ;o)

Also, your mailer is overriding the Reply-To field and putting in your
personal addy rather than the list's.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
Web Page: Poisoned Elves at www.primenet.com/~gamemstr

"You're calling me Bitch like it's a bad thing."
--> CrapGame during the Drive in the Country tournament
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com

From:	Ray & Tamara <macey@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Novels
Date:	Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:04:30 +1000

Message no. 17 > This book is a masterpiece in SR Novel history ... To bad Mr.Kubasik
> have only written (or atleast published) one SR Novel .. But then
> perhaps he is more of a Earthdawn and Battletech kinda writer.

It must be just me. I never did like changeling (I feel so alone :) ). The
fact that....

SPOILERS FOR CHANGELING

I never did like the fact that some troll could single-handedly come up with a
cure for Goblinisation. I don't care whether he got to data that the
corporations no longer shared or not. The companies should be able to come up
with a cure by spending billions on it (which they do). I also feel that the
troll had no idea on magic theory, and that curing goblinisation without the
need for a great deal of magical power just goes to far from my idea of the
Shadowrun world.

NightRain.

-----------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens,|
| You will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@***.brisnet.org.au

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Novels
Date:	Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:36:24 +0000

Message no. 18 > > 2XS, in addition to being the second greatest SR novel yet (second to
> > Changling)
>
> Aiee! Those are the two that I thought were utterly without merit. :)

It depends largely on your taste. In SR novels, I tend to prefer
stories of non-professional shadowrunners who are heavy on good
sense. It makes them seem more heroic than someone who has all the
gear and all the contacts so that it really isn't a big deal.
Others, I am well aware, differ in this, and find the guys with all
the gear, all the contacts, and all the experience to be more heroic.

Also, I'm a Sci Fi fan anyway, and Changling was a great book OUTSIDE
the SR universe. It covered social issues without being boring, and
with enough variation to make it interesting.

Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie

From:	Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Novels
Date:	Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:52:50 +0000

Message no. 19 > > This book is a masterpiece in SR Novel history ... To bad Mr.Kubasik
> > have only written (or atleast published) one SR Novel .. But then
> > perhaps he is more of a Earthdawn and Battletech kinda writer.
>
> It must be just me. I never did like changeling (I feel so alone :) ). The
> fact that....
>
> SPOILERS FOR CHANGELING
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I never did like the fact that some troll could single-handedly come up with a
> cure for Goblinisation. I don't care whether he got to data that the

Realize that his cure was never tested. But we are led to assume it
will work, so lets pretend it is totally proven:

> corporations no longer shared or not. The companies should be able to come up
> with a cure by spending billions on it (which they do). I also feel that the

I think this was part of the hidden point of the book. Prof
succeeded because he 1) Had access to everyone's info and 2) Didn't
attack it from a corporate point of view. Yes, the corps were
throwing billions of nuyen, but he gathered all their info, so
effectively, he had mulit-billions of nuyen's information. And
aside from a few dedicated individuals (such as his father), the
average corp scientist is going to put in his eight hour day, and his
only concern is if he can find a cure faster than OTHER sciencetists
so he gets the Nobel Prize and so forth. Prof lived his
work....every time he saw himself in the mirror, everytime he saw
horror or fear on another's face, he had more motivation than those
scientists. He'd dream solutions to genetic problems. (Actually,
I've done this with programs....it's really weird to suddenly wake up
after having dreamt a program and then have to write it all down
before it fades.)

> troll had no idea on magic theory, and that curing goblinisation without the
> need for a great deal of magical power just goes to far from my idea of the
> Shadowrun world.

Good point, but not necessarily true. First, the position taken in
the book was that some magical element began the transcription of
previously inert DNA. Two sequences can follow: after this event,
the DNA continues to transcribe, so an individual is constantly being
goblinized (but once you have, it has no effect other than keeping
you that way) or The changes rendered are done with and the DNA is
again inert, you simply remain the way you are because nothing tries
to change you back.

Actually, that was poorly phrased. There are two concepts that are
important in there: 1) Does a body stay in its form, or does it
revert to human outside other influences? 2) Does the metagene
continue to transcribe after goblinization?

Presumably, the Awakening was the initial event that triggered the
Metagene. A need of magical theory would be required in only certain
cases:
1) The changes are wrought through magical rather than genetic means.
2) The Metagene cannot be deactivated while magic is present unless
magically altered.

Neither of these really seem to be the case...I've gotten the
impression that scientists are able to determine WHAT is happening to
the body (i.e. changes are non-magical) but not WHY (i.e. the trigger
is magical).

Prof isn't playing with trying to trigger that piece of DNA, he's
trying to trick it into going off, or into reversal, or whatever it
is that is required. Certainly easier with Magic, but not
impossible. Also remember what is pointed out in the book about
using magic in this case....because you are playing with the basic
life structure of an entity, pretty soon you get a heavy background
count, which means heavier force pumped into future spells, which
means more background count.

Not to say that you don't have a point, just that I could accept the
plot.
Brett Borger
SwiftOne@***.edu
AAP Techie

From:	Stefan <casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Novels
Date:	Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:03:28 +0000

Message no. 20 > SPOILERS FOR CHANGELING
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I never did like the fact that some troll could single-handedly come up with a
> cure for Goblinisation. I don't care whether he got to data that the
> corporations no longer shared or not. The companies should be able to come up
> with a cure by spending billions on it (which they do). I also feel that the
> troll had no idea on magic theory, and that curing goblinisation without the
> need for a great deal of magical power just goes to far from my idea of the
> Shadowrun world.

Bah! Technicalities :) What says there isn't a cure of
goblinisation? mayby the corps just like having big trolls and orks
and elfs around ... but then ok mayby it was not like a "correct"
book but then I must say that very few shadowrun novels really stick
to the rules or the info as we know it ...

/Stefan

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!" - Sinjin the decker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... E-Mail .............................. casanova@***.passagen.se ...
... HomePage .............................. http://hsl.home.ml.org ...
... ICQ .................................................. 1403212 ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:	Geoffrey Giesemann <geoffwa@***********.COM.AU>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Novels
Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 1997 22:04:04 +1000

Message no. 21 >> > This book is a masterpiece in SR Novel history ... To bad Mr.Kubasik
>> > have only written (or atleast published) one SR Novel .. But then
>> > perhaps he is more of a Earthdawn and Battletech kinda writer.
>>
>> It must be just me. I never did like changeling (I feel so alone :) ).
The
>> fact that....
>>
>> SPOILERS FOR CHANGELING
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
[SNIP]

Actually when you replace someones' DNA or change it only new cells will
change to the new coding. Having human and troll cells floating around
someone could be nasty. I imagine the people who START to undergo
goblinization would use this. Otherwise it'd be about 2 years sitting in a
gene tank as you body shrinks. It'd probably be similar to that de-aging
process in Shadowtech.

Geoff

----------------
'Press any key to continue,
and any other key to quit.'
---------------

From:	Ray & Tamara <macey@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun Novels
Date:	Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:33:02 +1000

Message no. 22 > > SPOILERS FOR CHANGELING
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I never did like the fact that some troll could single-handedly come up
with a
> > cure for Goblinisation. I don't care whether he got to data that the
>
> Realize that his cure was never tested. But we are led to assume it
> will work, so lets pretend it is totally proven:

No, I think I will believe that it would not of worked. That way I can enjoy
the book without worrying about all the problems I had with it. Believe it or
not, it never occurred to me that it just might not of ever worked.

> > corporations no longer shared or not. The companies should be able to come
up
> > with a cure by spending billions on it (which they do). I also feel that
the
>
> I think this was part of the hidden point of the book. Prof
> succeeded because he 1) Had access to everyone's info and 2) Didn't

I still think that the corporations could get to the others info if they wanted
it bad enough, whether or not they did it above board or illegally.

> attack it from a corporate point of view. Yes, the corps were
> throwing billions of nuyen, but he gathered all their info, so
> effectively, he had mulit-billions of nuyen's information. And
> aside from a few dedicated individuals (such as his father), the
> average corp scientist is going to put in his eight hour day, and his
> only concern is if he can find a cure faster than OTHER sciencetists
> so he gets the Nobel Prize and so forth. Prof lived his
> work....every time he saw himself in the mirror, everytime he saw
> horror or fear on another's face, he had more motivation than those
> scientists. He'd dream solutions to genetic problems.

Yeah, but you are trying to tell me that there are no others out there in a
similar situations to his father or himself that actually work for a Corp in a
big think tank. I think that there has to someone that believes just as strong
as they did, but has more resources. Therefore if they can do it on the street
'_I_' believe that a Corp scientist could do it as well, even if not as easily
because of the whole 'restricted info' thing.

> Prof isn't playing with trying to trigger that piece of DNA, he's
> trying to trick it into going off, or into reversal, or whatever it
> is that is required. Certainly easier with Magic, but not
> impossible. Also remember what is pointed out in the book about
> using magic in this case....because you are playing with the basic
> life structure of an entity, pretty soon you get a heavy background
> count, which means heavier force pumped into future spells, which
> means more background count.

Well, yeah, I had no real though behind the 'not enough magic to make it work'
idea, just a feeling of the way I think things should work :)

> Not to say that you don't have a point, just that I could accept the
> plot.

Oh, well. As I say, if I believe that it wouldn't of worked, then I can accept
it as well.

NightRain.

-----------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens,|
| You will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@***.brisnet.org.au

From:	Geoffrey Giesemann <geoffwa@***********.COM.AU>
Subject:	Fw: Shadowrun Novels
Date:	Sat, 13 Sep 1997 14:05:43 +1000

Message no. 23 >> >> > This book is a masterpiece in SR Novel history ... To bad
Mr.Kubasik
>> >> > have only written (or atleast published) one SR Novel .. But then
>> >> > perhaps he is more of a Earthdawn and Battletech kinda writer.
>> >>
>> >> It must be just me. I never did like changeling (I feel so alone
:) ).
>> The
>> >> fact that....
>> >>
>> >> SPOILERS FOR CHANGELING
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> [SNIP]
>>
>> Actually when you replace someones' DNA or change it only new cells will
>> change to the new coding. Having human and troll cells floating around
>> someone could be nasty. I imagine the people who START to undergo
>> goblinization would use this. Otherwise it'd be about 2 years sitting in
a
>> gene tank as you body shrinks. It'd probably be similar to that de-aging
>> process in Shadowtech.
>
>Depends on your method. Current experiments work this way only
>because scientists have no desire to start a process they can't
>control. Once they understand the results better, they'll create
>tailored virii to modify all existing cells. I imagine the reversal
>time would desgined to be at about the same speed of goblinization
>(2-3 weeks) or perhaps a little slower to be safer.
>
>Right now people aren't doing this because of the very real danger of
>creating something we can't control (ala FAT-III b) because the virii
>we design would have to bypass or overwhelm the immune system to
>work, and if we make virii like that and it mutates......
>
>
>
>Brett Borger
>SwiftOne@***.edu
>AAP Techie

From:	Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels)
Date:	Sat, 13 Sep 1997 05:12:18 EDT

Message no. 24 On Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:13:45 -0500 "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117"
<KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU> writes:
>You wrote:
>> Has anyone mentioned William Gibson yet? I found his books like
Neuromancer,
>> Count Zero, and Mona Lisa Overdrive to be very good. Some people have
complained
>> that Shadowrun basically ripped off Gibson and that he should get
credit
>> somewhere.

>No, SR borrowed from the entire cyberpunk genre, of which Gibson is
>just an important part. Cyberpunk prolly comes a lot closer to Gibson's
writing, and
>is still far away in imprtant ways.

And I guess there's not going to be any mention of that particular Robert
A. Heinlein short story (who's name I rather inconvieniently forgot right
about now), that just about pegged commercial use of magic in a very
SR-like way, either...

~Tim (If I remember the name I'll post it..pretty interesting stuff)

From:	Mike Sapp <cynner29@******.NET>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels)
Date:	Sun, 14 Sep 1997 02:30:19 -0400

Message no. 25 At 05:12 AM 9/13/97 EDT, you wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Sep 1997 20:13:45 -0500 "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117"
><KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU> writes:
>>You wrote:
>>> Has anyone mentioned William Gibson yet? I found his books like
>Neuromancer,
>>> Count Zero, and Mona Lisa Overdrive to be very good. Some people have
>complained
>>> that Shadowrun basically ripped off Gibson and that he should get
>credit
>>> somewhere.
>
>>No, SR borrowed from the entire cyberpunk genre, of which Gibson is
>>just an important part. Cyberpunk prolly comes a lot closer to Gibson's
>writing, and
>>is still far away in imprtant ways.
>
>And I guess there's not going to be any mention of that particular Robert
>A. Heinlein short story (who's name I rather inconvieniently forgot right
>about now), that just about pegged commercial use of magic in a very
>SR-like way, either...
>
I read a book recently titled "Operation Chaos" by Fredrick Pohl I
believe
but it could be Paul Anderson I'm thinking of, I'll hunt it down and post
it soon. Alot of it was standard sexism 50's variant, like you see in alot
of Heinlein's books, but it centered around a werewolf and his lady love, a
witch. It didn't follow SR or any other magic in the modern world motifs
you see or game. It was based in a alternate dimension where magic was
always here and all the wives' tales were true. At any rate it went into
detail on several military and non-military uses of magic and how cultural
magics and wives' tales can be at odds with one another. The first story
was the most interesting I think, concerning the meeting of the two and
sneaking past enemy lines, the enemy being the Cabal. The Cabal are an
arabic group using a Djinn to wreak havoc and .... well at any rate I
thought it was a good read.
Be forewarned however, if you couldn't stand Puppet Masters or Starship
Trooper or you don't like 50's style pulp fiction then don't bother. The
sexism is heavy handed and illogical, if your wife could blow up the
apartment with a fireball , would it cross your mind to insist that she
dress demurely? Would you stop her hysterics with a slap, knowing she
summons and talks to demons as a part of her occupation? It also uses
broomsticks as the main transportation. But underneath there lies some
interesting situations and storylines which is the same reason why I keep
reading Heinlein.

Cynner -

From:	David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels)
Date:	Sun, 14 Sep 1997 03:30:24 +0000

Message no. 26 On 13 Sep 97 at 5:12, Tim Cooper wrote:

> And I guess there's not going to be any mention of that particular
> Robert A. Heinlein short story (who's name I rather inconvieniently
> forgot right about now), that just about pegged commercial use of
> magic in a very SR-like way, either...

The story is Magic, Inc. (C) 1940,1942,1950. My copy is in a
paperback with Waldo. It was published by Signet in 1970. I belive I
have seen it in much newer editions in the local Barns & Noble.

As to Tim's comments, he is right on the money. The story also
includes a bit of politics and time travel, two of Heinlien's
favorites. Waldo also contains some interresting comments on magic.

David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org
******************************************************
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a
little temporary safety deserve niether liberty or
safety.
Ben Franklin

From:	Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels)
Date:	Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:00:51 EDT

Message no. 27 On Sun, 14 Sep 1997 03:30:24 +0000 David Hinkley <dhinkley@***.ORG>
writes:
>On 13 Sep 97 at 5:12, Tim Cooper wrote:
>
>> And I guess there's not going to be any mention of that particular
>> Robert A. Heinlein short story (who's name I rather inconvieniently
>> forgot right about now), that just about pegged commercial use of
>> magic in a very SR-like way, either...
>
>The story is Magic, Inc. (C) 1940,1942,1950. My copy is in a
>paperback with Waldo. It was published by Signet in 1970. I belive I
>have seen it in much newer editions in the local Barns & Noble.

Yup, that'd be the one.... as I recall Waldo was also in the one I read,
along with another story as well (maybe Puppet Masters)

~Tim

From:	Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels) -Reply
Date:	Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:30:31 -0500

Message no. 28 >And I guess there's not going to be any
>mention of that particular Robert
>A. Heinlein short story (who's name I rather
>inconvieniently forgot right about now), that just
>about pegged commercial use of magic in a
>very
>SR-like way, either...

"Magic, Inc." by Robert A. Heinlein

Double-Domed Mike

From:	Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels) -Reply
Date:	Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:00:25 EDT

Message no. 29 On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:30:31 -0500 Mike Elkins <MikeE@*********.COM>
writes:

>"Magic, Inc." by Robert A. Heinlein

Yup... I was about to type that, but wasn't 100% sure.

~Tim

From:	Adam Lewis <adamswork@*****.COM>
Subject:	Shadowrun novels?
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:15:37 -0700

Message no. 30 Being new to the game, I'm thinkin of picking up a Shadowrun novel
today.

Any suggestions on a good one?

==
AdamL

"The good die first."
"But most of us are morally ambiguous, which explains our random dying
patterns."

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

From:	"Christopher M. Coulter" <kamikaze@*********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels?
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:21:29 +0000

Message no. 31 anything by Nigel Findley or Carl Sargent and Marc Gasciogne is
usually pretty good for detectove type shadowrun stories.

kamikaze

From:	Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels?
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:34:49 -0400

Message no. 32 On 10 Sep 98, at 9:21, Christopher M. Coulter wrote:

> anything by Nigel Findley or Carl Sargent and Marc Gasciogne is
> usually pretty good for detectove type shadowrun stories.

Urrgggh... No.

Stay away from Sargent and Gasciogne. Their stuff is way over the
top. Nigel Findley's stuff is good for ground level shadowrunning.

If you like a lot of action, check out Mel Odom's books.

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown

From:	00DNA <mcmanus@******.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels?
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:33:16 -0400

Message no. 33 <which SR novels to read>

At 09:21 AM 9/10/98 +0000, kamikaze wrote:
>anything by Nigel Findley or Carl Sargent and Marc Gasciogne is
>usually pretty good for detectove type shadowrun stories.

I'd agree with the Nigel Findley...the fiction really took a nose dive
after he passed away.

I'm not so sure about Carl and Marc though. The first few books were good
I thought, but Black Madonna...well, did not like that at all. God like
character being led around by an even more powerful character till the end
where he just tells them everything...yah, exciting.

For people just getting into Shadowrun I have them read the first Trilogy.
Umm, shoot can't remember the titles...Never Deal with a Dragon, Find your
own Truth, Choose your Enemies Wisely...I think that's it.

2xS, very good.
If you can't find some of the older books, stick to books written by Jak
Koke and Mel Odom...though probably not as good as Nigel, these are
probably the better of the FASA novel writers today.

IMHO of course.

--00DNA
<<Replication Terminated>>

From:	"Christopher M. Coulter" <kamikaze@*********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels?
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:43:14 +0000

Message no. 34 >
> > anything by Nigel Findley or Carl Sargent and Marc Gasciogne is
> > usually pretty good for detectove type shadowrun stories.
>
> Urrgggh... No.
>
> Stay away from Sargent and Gasciogne. Their stuff is way over the
> top. Nigel Findley's stuff is good for ground level shadowrunning.
>
> If you like a lot of action, check out Mel Odom's books.

I don't think I've read Odom's books.
When I mentioned Sargent and Gasciogne, I was thinking more along
the lines of the setting background they use. The get down to the
real grittiness of the game.
Incidently, I wouldn't call Findley's stuff ground level
shadowrunning. Dealing with a insect spirit conspiracy under the
guise of Crashcart or stopping a Corporate War really isn't ground
level shadowrunning. Remember Findley was the guy who defined
MegaCorporate activity and policies in Corporate Shadowfiles. One of
the must have books for any GM interested in Corporate Runs.

kamikaze

From:	Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels?
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:51:01 -0400

Message no. 35 On 10 Sep 98, at 9:43, Christopher M. Coulter wrote:

> Incidently, I wouldn't call Findley's stuff ground level
> shadowrunning. Dealing with a insect spirit conspiracy under the
> guise of Crashcart or stopping a Corporate War really isn't ground
> level shadowrunning.

Well, what I meant was, that the character's were realistic, and not
overpowered. Dirk Montgomery was a non-cybered mundane, IIRC.
Certainly what they were up against was not ground level, but the
characters and their reaction to the whole affair were.

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown

From:	Lars Ericson <lericson@****.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels?
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 09:56:35 -0500

Message no. 36 Adam Lewis wrote:
>
> Being new to the game, I'm thinkin of picking up a Shadowrun novel
> today.
>
> Any suggestions on a good one?

I always liked the earlier ones. My recommendations are:

1) Shadowrun Anthology (or something like that) - A compilation of a
dozen or so short stories that give an excellent perspective on
different kinds of runs and runners.
2) 2XS - Detective story where the main character is not some super
munchkin beast like Ryan Mercury
3) The Twist Trilogy - First on is "Never Deal with a Dragon" it is a
good series for a beginning player because it was written when the game
was still new, so things are going to be explained. Also has a decent
story.

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Lars Ericson: Professional Vagabond
Smalley Research Group, Rice University
E-Mail: lericson@****.edu
WWW: http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~lericson/

"Raisin Hell -- a million raisins in every can."
-- Sifl & Olly Show

From:	"Christopher M. Coulter" <kamikaze@*********.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels?
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:03:09 +0000

Message no. 37 > Well, what I meant was, that the character's were realistic, and not
> overpowered. Dirk Montgomery was a non-cybered mundane, IIRC.
> Certainly what they were up against was not ground level, but the
> characters and their reaction to the whole affair were.

I think you're right about the fact that they were not "prime
runners" but they were intersting characters nonetheless.
BTW, I don't suppose you know the title of the second Dirk Montgomery
book? I only saw it once but didn't catch the title. I know the
cover showed him with a cybered arm though.

kamikaze

From:	Tim Kerby <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels?
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:07:18 -0400

Message no. 38 On 10 Sep 98, at 10:03, Christopher M. Coulter wrote:

> BTW, I don't suppose you know the title of the second Dirk Montgomery
> book? I only saw it once but didn't catch the title. I know the cover
> showed him with a cybered arm though.

It was "House of the Sun", and is set in Hawai'i. Good book.

--

=================================================================
- Tim Kerby - drekhead@***.net - ICQ-UIN 2883757 -
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Reality is the only obstacle to happiness." - Unknown

From:	Steve Eley <sfeley@***.NET>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels?
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:39:47 -0400

Message no. 39 Christopher M. Coulter wrote:
>
> I think you're right about the fact that they were not "prime
> runners" but they were intersting characters nonetheless.
> BTW, I don't suppose you know the title of the second Dirk Montgomery
> book? I only saw it once but didn't catch the title. I know the
> cover showed him with a cybered arm though.

It was _House of the Sun._ A good read, even despite the gratuitous
Harlequin cameo.

Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net

From:	Kevin Langevin <kevinl@******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels?
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 12:32:29 -0400

Message no. 40 > I always liked the earlier ones. My recommendations are:
>
> 1) Shadowrun Anthology (or something like that) - A compilation of a
> dozen or so short stories that give an excellent perspective on
> different kinds of runs and runners.

I'ts Shadowrun #7, Into The Shadows...excellent intro to the game...

> 2) 2XS - Detective story where the main character is not some super
> munchkin beast like Ryan Mercury

I agree...Mercury was totally munchkin...I think Mel Odom's books are very
good, too. I've read a non-SR book by him called Lethal Interface...it's
cyberpunkish. Quite good. There's a sequel, which I've read, but can't
remember the name of.

-Kev (aka Nunzio, Bodyguard-For-Hire)

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels?
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 20:50:23 +0200

Message no. 41 According to 00DNA, at 10:33 on 10 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> I'd agree with the Nigel Findley...the fiction really took a nose dive
> after he passed away.

I haven't read most of the recent books, but I have to agree that
Findley's books were quite good for game fiction.

> I'm not so sure about Carl and Marc though. The first few books were good
> I thought, but Black Madonna...well, did not like that at all. God like
> character being led around by an even more powerful character till the end
> where he just tells them everything...yah, exciting.

I've only read Streets of Blood, and it wasn't very impressive. Too many
all-powerful elven aristocrats and things like that walking around.

> For people just getting into Shadowrun I have them read the first Trilogy.
> Umm, shoot can't remember the titles...Never Deal with a Dragon, Find your
> own Truth, Choose your Enemies Wisely...I think that's it.

Choose Your Enemies Carefully is the title, I believe. I really wish I
could have bought those a few weeks ago in the US, but my backpack was
weighing too much as it was :(

> 2xS, very good.

Definitely. Very good example of someone getting in over his head, too.

> If you can't find some of the older books, stick to books written by Jak
> Koke and Mel Odom...though probably not as good as Nigel, these are
> probably the better of the FASA novel writers today.

I read Headhunters by Mel Odom a few months ago, and I didn't like it very
much. The story is okay, but it gives a very poor idea of the world of
Shadowrun -- especially the things that can and will happen if you apply
the game rules. Not surprising if you know Mel Odom doesn't play SR,
though, but disappointing nonetheless.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It may look to the untrained eye I'm sitting on my arse all day.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Tomus Cone <brother_1@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels?
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:22:37 PDT

Message no. 42 >Being new to the game, I'm thinkin of picking up a Shadowrun novel
>today.
>
>Any suggestions on a good one?
>
>AdamL
>
I'm really fond of "Burning Bright".

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From:	Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels?
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:33:59 -0400

Message no. 43 At 01:22 PM 9/10/98 PDT, you wrote:
>>Being new to the game, I'm thinkin of picking up a Shadowrun novel
>>today.
>>
>>Any suggestions on a good one?
>>
>>AdamL
>>
>I'm really fond of "Burning Bright".

I liked that one too. Another good by Tom Dowd is: "Night's Pawn".

(>)noysh the spoonë bard
-> jack of all trades, master of none. <-

From:	Adam J <adamj@*********.HTML.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels?
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:47:20 -0600

Message no. 44 At 16:33 9/10/98 -0400, Shaun Gilroy wrote

>>>Being new to the game, I'm thinkin of picking up a Shadowrun novel
>>>today.

>>I'm really fond of "Burning Bright".
>
>I liked that one too. Another good by Tom Dowd is: "Night's Pawn".

It's fairly old, but 2XS by Nigel Findley still holds up as the best
Shadowrun novel I've ever read.

-Adam J

-
< TSS Productions down temporarily - New URL Soon! / fro@***.ab.ca >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / ICQ# 2350330 >
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From:	Tomus Cone <brother_1@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels?
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 14:21:31 PDT

Message no. 45 Anyone got a copy of "Striper Assassin", or know where I can get one?

______________________________________________________
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From:	Shaun Gilroy <shaung@**********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels?
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 17:44:12 -0400

Message no. 46 At 02:21 PM 9/10/98 PDT, you wrote:
>Anyone got a copy of "Striper Assassin", or know where I can get one?
>

I've got it. Didn't like it at all. About as exciting as a trip to work
on Labor Day.
:)

Shaun Gilroy [shaung@**********.net]
Online Technologies Corporation

From:	Steve Collins <einan@*********.NET>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels?
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:48:25 -0400

Message no. 47 >At 16:33 9/10/98 -0400, Shaun Gilroy wrote
>
>>>>Being new to the game, I'm thinkin of picking up a Shadowrun novel
>>>>today.
>
>>>I'm really fond of "Burning Bright".
>>
>>I liked that one too. Another good by Tom Dowd is: "Night's Pawn".
>
>It's fairly old, but 2XS by Nigel Findley still holds up as the best
>Shadowrun novel I've ever read.
>

I havn't read that many of them but my favorite seems to be getting
neglected here So I'll mention it, Changeling by Chris Kubasic. It's
about a Biotech Researchers son who is also a Prodigy in the field as
well who Goblinizes into a Troll just before the Night of Rage and looses
almost all his memory. Shortly After that he runs away and ends up living
on the Streets with a goal of discovering a way to reverse the
Goblinization that has made a Monster of him. He hooks up with a burned
out Sammie who got one of the first sets of Wired Reflexes and they're
not quite stable and they form a team and eventually work their way into
the Mob. I'll leave the rest out so as not to spoin the book.

Steve

From:	Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels?
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:42:42 -0400

Message no. 48 Tomus Cone wrote:
>
> Anyone got a copy of "Striper Assassin", or know where I can get one?

Ugh. Why would you WANT a copy of that one? I find the present-tense
narrative jarring and painful to slog through...the same narrative is
used in Who Hunts the Hunter, IIRC, and I got maybe three pages into it
before I said forget it.

--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>

"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm

From:	Stefan <casanova@***.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels?
Date:	Fri, 11 Sep 1998 04:46:38 +0000

Message no. 49 Most of the Shadowrun novels are pretty good as a matter of fact but
sure there are the once that are better than the rest. They all do
bring something to the game world thou.

But without a doubt the greatest of the writers is Nigel D. Findley.
He will always be missed. He wrote some non-shadowrun books to that
is worth reading but perhaps only to the real Nigel fans.

I always had a weakness for the all-powerful-elf books thou that
noone else appears to like so I recommend Streets of Blood and
BlackMadonna.

But my all time book still remains 2XS. Might be hard to find now
since it is quite old.

/Stefan

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From:	Jett <zmjett@*********.COM>
Subject:	Re: Shadowrun novels?
Date:	Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:47:45 -0400

Message no. 50 00DNA wrote:
>
> <which SR novels to read>
>
> At 09:21 AM 9/10/98 +0000, kamikaze wrote:
> >anything by Nigel Findley or Carl Sargent and Marc Gasciogne is
> >usually pretty good for detectove type shadowrun stories.
>
> I'd agree with the Nigel Findley...the fiction really took a nose dive
> after he passed away.
>
> I'm not so sure about Carl and Marc though. The first few books were good
> I thought, but Black Madonna...well, did not like that at all. God like
> character being led around by an even more powerful character till the end
> where he just tells them everything...yah, exciting.
>
> For people just getting into Shadowrun I have them read the first Trilogy.
> Umm, shoot can't remember the titles...Never Deal with a Dragon, Find your
> own Truth, Choose your Enemies Wisely...I think that's it.

Never Deal with a dragon
Choose your enemies carefully
Find your own Truth

I would recommend that you avoid the last one. It stunk. The second book
was only average. But the first was very good, IMO.

Other books I thought were good:

Shadowplay
Shadowboxer (I'm gonna get it for this one, but I actually really liked
it)
Into the Shadows (which was mentioned: the anthology)
Nosferatu
Lucifer Deck

Books I thought Sucked:

Changeling
The one with Aina and Harlequin fighting horrors...I can't think of the
name of it. Help, someone?

--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>

"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm

Message no. 51 > Other books I thought were good:
>
> Shadowplay
>
Yup, very good.

> Shadowboxer (I'm gonna get it for this one, but I actually really
> liked
> it)
>
Boo! Hiss! (Couldn't let you down, could I? :) )

Sucked IMHO, and in the opinions of the majority of people I've heard. I
guess we just don't like it when the heroes turn true mercenary.

> Into the Shadows (which was mentioned: the anthology)
>
Great book - much better than a standard anthology.

> Nosferatu
>
Haven't read it.

> Lucifer Deck
>
Wasn't impressed. IMO Lisa Smedman's other novel, the name of which I
can't recall (something about blood?), but which is set mostly in Aztlan
is very good.

> Books I thought Sucked:
>
> Changeling
>
Never read it.

> The one with Aina and Harlequin fighting horrors...I can't think of
> the
> name of it. Help, someone?
>
Worlds Without End. I'd agree with Jett on that this one isn't very good
- however, if you're after some of the deep darks of the Shadowrun
universe, this one gives an interesting perspective.

> --Jett
>
My personal favourite would have to be Wolf and Raven, followed Into the
Shadows and Shadowplay. 2XS was also good.

As someone else has mentioned, Black Madonna is a bit of
self-gratification by the authors. Apart from that my least favourites
would be Shadowboxer and (get this) pretty much anything by Jak Koke. No
offense, Jak - interesting plotlines, but your writing style just
doesn't 'do it' for me. :) That doesn't mean that Jak's works are bad
books (which Black Madonna and Shadowboxer could probably be classified
as). I just didn't like them.

Doc'

Message no. 52 >I've got it. Didn't like it at all. About as exciting as a trip to
work
>on Labor Day.
> :)
Um... then can I have yours?

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Message no. 53 Jett writes:

> Other books I thought were good:
>
> Shadowplay
> Shadowboxer (I'm gonna get it for this one, but I actually really liked
> it)
> Into the Shadows (which was mentioned: the anthology)
> Nosferatu
> Lucifer Deck
>
> Books I thought Sucked:
>
> Changeling
> The one with Aina and Harlequin fighting horrors...I can't think of the
> name of it. Help, someone?
>

My favorite SR novels (in no real order) are:

- Nosferatu
- The Dragon Heart Trilogy
- 2XS
- Wolf and Raven
- Never Trust an Elf
- Burning Bright
- Black Madonna
- Bloodsport
- House of the Sun
- Lucifer Deck
- Worlds Without End (I didn't like the writing much but
I did like the subject matter)

My all-time *least* favorite is Shadowboxer. I
wouldn't inflict that on my birdcage (even if I had
a bird, which I don't)

The ones I couldn't get through were:

- Striper Assassin
- Who Hunts the Hunter
- Most of Mel Odom's stuff (it was okay...it just
didn't hold my interest)

Everything else was somewhere in the middle...

(Oh, and whoever was asking about the trilogy for sale,
email me. I just won those three and two more (one of
which I'm keeping--it's the one I bought the lot for)
in an ebay auction for $5.50. Since I already have a
set, I might be talked into selling or trading them.)

--Rat
------------------------------------------------
shadorat@****.com
Winterhawk's Virtual Magespace
http://www.best.com/~shadorat/shadowrun/wvm.html

Message no. 54 In a message dated 98-09-10 22:55:24 EDT, you write:

> Other books I thought were good:
>
> Shadowplay
> Shadowboxer (I'm gonna get it for this one, but I actually really liked
> it)
> Into the Shadows (which was mentioned: the anthology)
> Nosferatu
> Lucifer Deck
>

I would add (if someone hasn't already) anything by Jak Koke, Mel Odom or
Steve Kenson.

And the RPG industry lost big when Nigel Findley passed on (if you haven't
read them already, read everything Findley put out. His books are
exceptional).

Btw, Jett, the book about Harlequin and Aina fighting Horrors was 'Worlds
without End'.

Mgkelly

Message no. 55 On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:15:37 -0700 Adam Lewis <adamswork@*****.COM>
writes:
>Being new to the game, I'm thinkin of picking up a Shadowrun novel
>today.
>
>Any suggestions on a good one?

My personal favorites are the ones by Mel Odom, 'Headhunters' and
'Preying for Keeps.' Both are good reads, even if I had to read through
them twice to get the whole story down. Thing is, I didn't mind doing
it. I also like 'Never Trust an Elf,' but it can be hard to find.

-Matt, Homo Sapiens Robustus
***********************************
"Kham loves me! He gave me a new rubber ducky!"

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Message no. 56 On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:47:45 -0400 Jett <zmjett@*********.COM> writes:

<snip>
>Shadowboxer (I'm gonna get it for this one, but I actually really liked
>it)

Hey! I liked this one, too. Like Erik said when the book was brought up
earlier, it has probably the best depiction of street life in the novels.
The writer obviously hasn't played SR, and some of the concepts are
waaaaaaay out there, but the characterizations are great. Thumbs is one
of my favorite characters in the novels. Ending's crap, though.

<snip>
>Lucifer Deck

Despite what you may think from 'Blood Sport,' Smedman's first SR outting
was decent. It was kind of nice to read about characters who *weren't*
shadowrunners per se.

<snip>
>The one with Aina and Harlequin fighting horrors...I can't think of the
>name of it. Help, someone?

'Worlds Without End.' While it's kinda interesting for what it reveals,
one's probably just better off asking about what happened in it.

Books I thought Sucked Royally:

Steel Rain - the thing was so boring and seemed to just plod on
endlessly. Gah. Detail is fine. I like detail. *Not* to the extent of
putting me to sleep, however.

Come to think of it...Most of Nyx's stuff. Haven't read it all, but both
Striper stories and Steel Rain were coma-inducing.

It's not a book, but I can't stand Ryan Mercury. Fellow just waltzes
along, no one and nothing can put him down. Nothing even has a effing
chance. What's the point? Hey, he can geek Damien Knight if he felt
like it! Why not Lofwyr while he's at it? Right. The Dragon Heart
trilogy is *good* though. That's what sucks. Burnout, Lethe, getting
rid of the whole Horror deal. Great stuff. If it weren't for Mercury...

-Matt, Homo Sapiens Robustus
***********************************
"Yeah, I gotcher drake right here..."

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Message no. 57 According to Jett, at 22:47 on 10 Sep 98, the word on the street was...

> Books I thought Sucked:
>
> Changeling
> The one with Aina and Harlequin fighting horrors...I can't think of the
> name of it. Help, someone?

Worlds Without End.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It may look to the untrained eye I'm sitting on my arse all day.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

Message no. 58 On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Steve Collins wrote:

<snippage>
->I havn't read that many of them but my favorite seems to be getting
->neglected here So I'll mention it, Changeling by Chris Kubasic. It's
->about a Biotech Researchers son who is also a Prodigy in the field as
->well who Goblinizes into a Troll just before the Night of Rage and looses
->almost all his memory. Shortly After that he runs away and ends up living
->on the Streets with a goal of discovering a way to reverse the
->Goblinization that has made a Monster of him. He hooks up with a burned
->out Sammie who got one of the first sets of Wired Reflexes and they're
->not quite stable and they form a team and eventually work their way into
->the Mob. I'll leave the rest out so as not to spoin the book.

Agreed. Changeling was my fave too. I enjoyed the ending most
but do not wish to spoil it either.

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?

Message no. 59 At 09:30 PM 9/10/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Jett writes:
>>
>> Books I thought Sucked:
>>

I vote the novel that sucked the most as:
"Fade to Black."

Hoo boy was that one an abyssmal read.

(>)noysh the spoonë bard
-> jack of all trades, master of none. <-

Message no. 60 >>Jett writes:
>>>
>>> Books I thought Sucked:
>>>
>
>I vote the novel that sucked the most as:
> "Fade to Black."
>
>Hoo boy was that one an abyssmal read.

Hey, do you think you guys who are trashing the books could explain why
you hated them. We don't thirty posts about "ugh, this one good" and
"ugh, no it not. It bad." Otherwise you are just wasting bandwidth.

______________________________________________________
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Message no. 61 Shaun Gilroy didst sayeth:
>At 09:30 PM 9/10/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>Jett writes:
>>>
>>> Books I thought Sucked:
>>>
>
>I vote the novel that sucked the most as:
> "Fade to Black."

>
>Hoo boy was that one an abyssmal read.

Hey...I like 'Fade to Black'. It was dark and depressing, but it was well
written and engaging. But I also liked 'Preying for Keeps', while I'd have
to say that 'Streets of Blood' and 'Nosferatu' weren't even good enough to
be burnt. I read them back to back, and haven't been able to pick up an SR
novel since. Every time I try, I read a few pages, then put it down and
read a few stories from 'Burning Chrome'.

Later-

Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Tech Priest in Training
-Violent Felon for Hire
-Pipe-wielding Sociopath for Fun
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
"Your eyes shiver and you grit your teeth,
You've sold you soul now cold blood's how you get relief."
-Ice-T, The Syndicate

Message no. 62 At 09:17 AM 9/11/98 PDT, you wrote:
>> "Fade to Black."
>>
>>Hoo boy was that one an abyssmal read.
>
>Hey, do you think you guys who are trashing the books could explain why
>you hated them. We don't thirty posts about "ugh, this one good" and
>"ugh, no it not. It bad." Otherwise you are just wasting bandwidth.

Sure. Sorry, but... um, well... anyway.

The reason I disliked "Fade to Black" was the lack of any primary plotline.
Sure, there was a story, several in fact, but that was just the problem.

There were multiple, rather uneventful plotlines that were all haphazardly
patched together (in the last 5-10 pages) for an equally pedestrian, albiet
depressing, denoumont or tying off of loose ends.

The sub-plots had no place in the story as they could have been removed and
you'd never has noticed as the reader of the main plot.

In the end, none of the characters had grown, had learned anything they
didn't already know, or had come by revelation. If you're familiar with
Nyx Smith's writings, he takes a similar method of storytelling as he did
in "Striper Assassin", only "Fade to Black" is in past tense, at
least. If
you're into chaos theory, then this book is probably an affirming read, but
I like to have more when I walk away at the end of a book than I had when I
opened it at the beginning.

How's that?

(>)noysh the spoonë bard
-> jack of all trades, master of none. <-

Message no. 63 On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:19:08 -0400 Duncan McNeill-Burton
<dmcneill@************.EDU> writes:

>Hey...I like 'Fade to Black'. It was dark and depressing, but it was
well
>written and engaging. But I also liked 'Preying for Keeps', while I'd
have
>to say that 'Streets of Blood' and 'Nosferatu' weren't even good enough
to
>be burnt. I read them back to back, and haven't been able to pick up an
SR
>novel since. Every time I try, I read a few pages, then put it down and
>read a few stories from 'Burning Chrome'.

If you like 'Preying for Keeps,' I'd recommend 'Headhunters,' too.

Matt's Review-in-Progress of Psychotrope:

I'm going to agree with Mark's review of this book earlier. Blech. The
worst part is, I'm not even halfway done with it, but already I don't
much care how it's going to turn out. It's one of those "why bother?"
deals. A decker story without FastJack can't be much good anyway.

-Matt, Homo Sapiens Robustus
***********************************
"A troll decker? That's as likely as an ork decker! Oh, sorry Bull..."

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Message no. 64 At 09:29 9/11/98 -0400, Shaun Gilroy wrote

>I vote the novel that sucked the most as:
> "Fade to Black."
>
>Hoo boy was that one an abyssmal read.

Ugh. The thing that annoyed me about this book (And it's been a few years
since I read it, so the details are fuzzy), is that the team seemed to be
prepared for every damy situation, and just sort of coasted. I never got
the feeling that they were in any danger of not succeeding in their task.

That's why I liked 2XS so much -- Dirk wasn't cut out at all for the tasks
he had to do, so I was worried about him throughout the book.. :-)

-Adam J
-
< TSS Productions down temporarily - New URL Soon! / fro@***.ab.ca >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / ICQ# 2350330 >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Co-Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< "Raven loves me! He just bought me a new rubber ducky!" - Lodi >
< TSS : ftp://thor.flashpt.com/pub/srun/ShadowrunSupplemental/pdf >

Message no. 65 > Ugh. The thing that annoyed me about this book (And it's been a few years
> since I read it, so the details are fuzzy), is that the team seemed to be
> prepared for every damy situation, and just sort of coasted. I never got
> the feeling that they were in any danger of not succeeding in their task.

But if you are truly a professional, that's how things go down. Plan
for all contingencies and make sure that nothing should go wrong, and
be prepared if something should.
Best book that I've read that best exemplifies this attitude is Tom
Clancy's Rainbow Six. A special forces team made up of true
professionals.
Other ones are the Hammer's Slammers books by David Drake.

Kamikaze

Message no. 66 At 13:15 9/11/98 +0000, Christopher M. Coulter wrote
>> Ugh. The thing that annoyed me about this book (And it's been a few years
>> since I read it, so the details are fuzzy), is that the team seemed to be
>> prepared for every damy situation, and just sort of coasted. I never got
>> the feeling that they were in any danger of not succeeding in their task.
>
>But if you are truly a professional, that's how things go down. Plan
>for all contingencies and make sure that nothing should go wrong, and
>be prepared if something should.

Sure, but it's no fun to read about it. I want the "hero" to be
challenged, to falter, hell, I don't care if the hero loses if I was
entertained. Fade to Black just didn't entertain or grip me.

-Adam J
-
< TSS Productions down temporarily - New URL Soon! / fro@***.ab.ca >
< ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader / TSA Co-Admin / ICQ# 2350330 >
< FreeRPG & Shadowrun Webring Co-Admin / The Shadowrun Supplemental >
< "Raven loves me! He just bought me a new rubber ducky!" - Lodi >
< TSS : ftp://thor.flashpt.com/pub/srun/ShadowrunSupplemental/pdf >

Message no. 67 Christopher M. Coulter wrote:
>
> > Ugh. The thing that annoyed me about this book (And it's been a few years
> > since I read it, so the details are fuzzy), is that the team seemed to be
> > prepared for every damy situation, and just sort of coasted. I never got
> > the feeling that they were in any danger of not succeeding in their task.
>
> But if you are truly a professional, that's how things go down. Plan
> for all contingencies and make sure that nothing should go wrong, and
> be prepared if something should.

That doesn't make for a very dramatic novel, though. (Nor a particularly
dramatic shadowrun.)

Novels are about conflict. They're about things going wrong, in ways that
generate suspense for both character and reader, and triumph at the end
regardless. Role-playing is most enjoyable when it happens that way too.

Just another reason why my favorite Shadowrun novel so far is _Burning
Bright._ (Haven't read _2XS_ yet; sounds like I probably should.)

Have Fun,
- Steve Eley
sfeley@***.net

Message no. 68 At 12:01 AM 9/11/98 -0400, Matt T Ork wrote:
>It's not a book, but I can't stand Ryan Mercury. Fellow just waltzes
>along, no one and nothing can put him down. Nothing even has a effing
>chance. What's the point? Hey, he can geek Damien Knight if he felt
>like it! Why not Lofwyr while he's at it? Right. The Dragon Heart
>trilogy is *good* though. That's what sucks. Burnout, Lethe, getting
>rid of the whole Horror deal. Great stuff. If it weren't for Mercury...
>
>

Huh? If I recall (without giving too much away), Ryan gets beaten several
times during the course of the trilogy. Granted he wasn't killed like just
about anybody else would have been, but "dammit Jim" he's the hero :).

BlueMule

Message no. 69 On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 15:32:59 -0500 Steven McCormick <stardust@***.NET>
writes:

>Huh? If I recall (without giving too much away), Ryan gets beaten
several
>times during the course of the trilogy. Granted he wasn't killed like
just
>about anybody else would have been, but "dammit Jim" he's the hero :).

Well, it's the same deal as 'Fade to Black' is, from what I've heard.
Always prepared, he can do anything. It's implied he could assassinate
Damien Knight. Even I have a hard time suspending my disbelief *that*
much. You never "sweat" for Mercury. Burnout's much more sympathetic,
in my humble opinion.

Ryan just sets off my munchkin detection circuits. An' I played Rifts,
so I can spot munchkin.

-Matt, Homo Sapiens Robustus
***********************************
"True, it was basically 'open page and point to something,' but not at
first."

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Message no. 70 Shaun Gilroy wrote:
>
> At 09:30 PM 9/10/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >Jett writes:
> >>
> >> Books I thought Sucked:
> >>
>
> I vote the novel that sucked the most as:
> "Fade to Black."
>
> Hoo boy was that one an abyssmal read.

You're right. I never even got three pages into it. I believe I still
have it around here somewhere. It might be propping up that short leg on
my coffee table, as a matter of fact.

--Jett

<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>

"I'll make this clear, that I'm just here for backup. And to offer the
occasional advice or insult."
--Jett, on being an NPC

Behold the mighty sonic scream of the Jett!

http://www.scifi-fantasy.com/~zmjett/shadow.htm

Message no. 71 > -----Original Message-----
> From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
> Behalf Of Stefan
> Sent: Friday, September 11, 1998 2:47 PM
>
>
> I always had a weakness for the all-powerful-elf books thou that
> else appears to like so I recommend Streets of Blood and
> BlackMadonna.

Don't worry. You are not alone. My wife prefers these ones to most
of the others, and at least I can say I don't mind them, even if they
are not my favourites.

Also, you're reply to field is over-riding the list address.

NightRain.

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| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

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EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947

Message no. 72 > > I always had a weakness for the all-powerful-elf books thou that
> > else appears to like so I recommend Streets of Blood and
> > BlackMadonna.
>
> Don't worry. You are not alone. My wife prefers these ones to most
> of the others, and at least I can say I don't mind them, even if they
> are not my favourites.
>
> Also, you're reply to field is over-riding the list address.
>
> NightRain.

I have become painfully aware of that but it is because of another
mailinglist I subscribe to requires you to have the replay to field
filled in as some sort of weird security check ....

So remeber that good people that when I write something and you feel
that urge to respond check the To field really close ...

/Stefan

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------------------------------------------------------------------------
... E-Mail .............................. casanova@***.passagen.se ...
... HomePage .............................. http://hsl.home.ml.org ...
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Message no. 73 Jason wrote:

> > I always had a weakness for the all-powerful-elf books thou that
> > noone else appears to like so I recommend Streets of Blood and
> > BlackMadonna.
>
> <rant>I'm glad someone likes the Wonder Twins stuff. I couldn't finish
> Streets of Blood & I fought my way thru Black Madonna to get a feel for the
> NoJ. I think my main problem with them is that the SR novels are supposed
> to have characters that can be experienced shadowrunners; Geraint (sp?),
> Michael, & Serrin are skilled & powered beyond belief, so much so that I
> find it hard to believe that they got that way with a Cargo Container load
> of Good Karma, each! Their exploits seem to be a never-ending series of
> skin-of-their-teeth escapes from nigh-invincible foes, and then it's off to
> drink some more Jamacian Blue Mountain coffee.
> </rant>

Well there really are two kinds of SR novels. The once that you can
identify your characters/players with the runners and the ohh so
powerful once. They are both good and very interesting and I must say
I always find it interesting to see the otherside ...

It could be a fun idea to see everything from Mr.Johnson side in a
book if anyone feel like they have 300 pages of novel material :)

[I let the rest of this message remain since I got this privatly
since I override the list if anyone was interested in reading it]

> Two side notes:
>
> 1) How much do you guys cahrge for Real-Coffee(R)? I usually gouge my
> players for 1500 nuyen a pound for The Good Stuff (tm) (ie - Sumatra, Kenya
> AA, & Blue Mtn . on occassion). If they're chinsy, I'll let them off with
> 750 nuyen a pound for Columbian Armenia Supremo or Mocha Java.
>
> 2) I will admit that I did enjoy the Great Form Spirit the encountered in
> Black Madonna, only the church would conjure Joan of Arc.
>
> Jason

/Stefan

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Message no. 74 >> 1) How much do you guys cahrge for Real-Coffee(R)?

Much like you, around 1500, Kona is 5k.

>> Jason
>
>/Stefan
>

Vote Tom Cone for President in 2012.

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Message no. 75 IIRC someone asked for good SR novels and by now the conclusion
should be:

Find your own truth (not the book, but the saying :)

No-one ever agrees on this, plus this pops up once every half year
(and I have the suspicion that most people just keep copies of they
original posts and re-post them every once in a while...:).

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

Message no. 76 One thing I think we all seem to forget about the novels is that they
offer a different approach to shadowrunning for everyone. In my
case, I prefer the professional type of runs, and for some others,
the munchkin type stories with lots of combat is for them. The
novels (IMHO) just give ideas for GMs on how to hone their styles.
If the novel promoted a style of story that people recognized, then I
think it was successfully written despite the characters power levels
or the bizarreness of the plots.

Kamikaze

Message no. 77 My opinion is this:

ALL sourcebooks should be cleared by the GM before being read. This
includes the novels. There's a lot of info in there, even in books that
aren't related to "major" SR events that honestly, I wish some people
didn't know. Whether it "spoils" something or is just something I try and
tone down or avoid allowing to happen my home campign, sometimes tehre are
things you just don't want players to get into their heads to try and do,
or be like, or to know.

Second, I honestly don't see any point in complaining about Event info
being resolved in the books, other than it's another source that needs to
be kept up on. And even then, it's a fairly minor one. What's the
difference in the Dunkelzohn stuff being wrapped up in the DHT or in a
sourcebook? Either way, it got wrapped up with most of the main details
intact, and that wouldn;t have changed. Thus, "spoiled" home campaigns
would have been just as "spoiled".

Going along with this, one of the best things about Shadowrun has always
been the fact that there is a living Shadowrun world. It grows, evolves,
changes. You can't throw out major plot hooks without explaining or
resolving them at some point. Otherwise you feel like you're only playing
with PART of the SR world, and for me, that's not acceptable. While I
agree with the fact that it's fun to play with these hooks and do what you
want with them, and it sucks when the "official" resolution conflicts with
what you're doing, but at the same token, without this resolution of
events, we're doing nothing but mucking around with rather unfinished and
bland world.

Third: The novels are very love 'em or leave 'em. Some are great, some
are average, and a few are several flavors of suck. But you take the good
with the bad. It's much the same with any book series that's written by
multiple authors (Try wading through the mess that is the Star Wars novel
line for a great example of this). If you don't enjoy reading, you're in
the wrong business <grin>. To be honest, I haven;t met a GM that wasn;t an
addicted bookworm of some sort, but by the same token, I know that some
people are simply slow readers or just don't get into reading a lot. For
them, just work around it. Ask people who did read it what happened. Go
with the flow, i suppose.

Now, in response to Jak's original post:

Honestly, I love the books. I may not like individual books, but... I
love finding out more about the SR world. I like reading about the
"smaller" events, the groups doing missions, the "prime" runners. But
I
also don't mind seeing details on the major events. Honestly, I prefer
having something like the Resolution of everything in the DHT to having it
in a sourcebook. This way, we actually have some concrete details rather
than a loose outline or a series of notes or somewhat unreliable notes by
other Runners giving us this info (Which may or may not be true). I say
keep it up.

Bull
--
Bull -- The Best Ork Decker You Never Met
bull@*******.net ===== bull22@***********.com
http://shadowrun.html.com/users/bull
ICQ: 35931890
====================================================== =
= Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any Fours? = =
======================================================
"Animals have 2 jobs: To taste good and to fit well."
-- Greg Proops, "Vs."

Message no. 78 Hoi, Chummers,

Just my 2 cents...

Just finished reading 2XS - I enjoyed it. I came away from it with some
ideas I can use in my game. Discussions of his use of the telecomm for
tracking information, surfing the matrix was described in the book, looking
at how a detective works in Seattle, the mall scene with the motorcycles
chasing Dirk is an encounter I may use at a later date, etc...

Maybe my opinion is different because I am new GM but these books help me to
get the feel and flavor of the world. They may not be great literary works,
but if your looking to get into the workings in Seattle and the Sprawl, they
do that fine (some do anyway). Want a description of a meet with a Johnson,
you can find one. Maybe an encounter in a novel interests you and you can
use it later in your game. Is a location described in a book that you like
that you can place into your version of Seattle? Ideas come from the
books....

As for events in the novels and CANON, that is always up to the GM - his/her
world to use whatever events they want to include. Enjoy the novels as a way
to feel and learn the gaming universe Shadowrun is set in. It's a
modernistic world so the Matrix is new and maybe hard to grasp for some
people. The idea of the telecom as a computer with video and voice
transmission may also be a different concept. That's what the novels help me
with.

Again, this is all IMHO...

Matthew M. Teixeira
mteixei1@*****.rr.com

Message no. 79 In a message dated 7/17/99 8:43:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mteixei1@*****.rr.com writes:

> Hoi, Chummers,
>
> Just my 2 cents...
>
> Just finished reading 2XS - I enjoyed it. I came away from it with some
> ideas I can use in my game. Discussions of his use of the telecomm for
> tracking information, surfing the matrix was described in the book, looking
> at how a detective works in Seattle, the mall scene with the motorcycles
> chasing Dirk is an encounter I may use at a later date, etc...

It's not 2XS that caused any problems. (That was an excellent book, wasn't
it? House of the Sun is even better.) It's books that take away the
RPG-intended plot threads in the sourcebooks that make trouble for GMs
wanting to run historically accurate campaigns.

-Twist

Message no. 80 >It's not 2XS that caused any problems. (That was an excellent book, wasn't
>it? House of the Sun is even better.) It's books that take away the
>RPG-intended plot threads in the sourcebooks that make trouble for GMs
>wanting to run historically accurate campaigns.

Again I ask you: what's the difference between a sourcebook telling you
"BTW, Dunkie killed himself. A few people found out and made it public"
(OK, in the novel they didn't, but how could peoeple otherwise find out
about it) or a novel (or series) doing so with a bonus that it has more
than a few pages to give you the details? Not just a few lines as we got
with Bug City - in a _sourcebook_!!! If you had other plans with Bug City,
the sourcebook spoiled your campaign as much as a novel would have. Your
campaign would've been as historically inaccurate as it was now.

OK, you might want an adventure in which _your_ runners find out what
happened. But they can't do that for every single plot thread they make.
And even if they did, they would have to publish it _immediately_ when they
started the whole storyline, otherwise you still would go "what do you mean
an adventure in which I let the runners find out Dunkie killed himself? I
already had this great plot in which it was Nadja Daviar and Damien Knight
had done it and now my campaign is historically inaccurate" etc. etc.

So your motivation has no value, it can happen with both novels,
sourcebooks and adventures. I can understand if you say "I'd like every
plotline detailed in an adventure or at least a sourcebook on which I can
base an adventure so my players can find out themselves!" But you can turn
the story in a novel into an adventure. Just take the runners out of it,
and replace them with your own. A GM with some worth can easily change the
story just enough to keep it almost the same, while customizing it to the
players' strengths and weaknesses. Another motivation is "I don't like
novels". OK, but there are also people who don't like adventures, etc. They
have to satify the whole market. And so they evenly spread everything:
novels about "small" runs, and epic plots. "Small" adventures, and
epic
adventures. I think if all adventures were about saving the world, you
would also complain.

VrGr David

"Shapes of angels the night casts lie dead but dreaming in my past and
they're here, they want to meet you, they want to play with you, so take
the dream."
(Fields of the Nephilim - "Sumerland (what dreams may come)")

mailto:alamais@***.nl for regular mail
mailto:D.N.M.vanNederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl if your mail has any large
attachments

Message no. 81 At 7:53 AM July 17 Twist wrote:

> It's not 2XS that caused any problems. (That was an excellent book,
wasn't
> it? House of the Sun is even better.) It's books that take away the
> RPG-intended plot threads in the sourcebooks that make trouble for GMs
> wanting to run historically accurate campaigns.

I really haven't noticed this kind of problem in my game - but them I
specifically steer away from things like the large, world-altering plots
that seem so prevalent in the novels. I simply haven't found the need to
involve my players in anything like that to keep them interested. I
occasionally refer to something that happened in one of the books as an
example of things going on around them - for example, while on a run
recently, one of the group's riggers was moving several drones across
Downtown Seattle while trailing an individual the party suspected of being
involved with the disappearance of some genius-level children from poor
backgrounds [they were being taken for illegal brain tissue transplant
research] and encountered the mass combat scenario that takes place at the
end of Michael Stackpole's 'Wolf and Raven.' He made some tough choices
[being a part-time independent news stringer as well as a self-confessed
surveillance addict] and left a drone there to see what transpired while
moving the rest on to the original target. He actually managed to get some
good footage before a Yakuza mage's fire elemental spotted the drone and
took it out - but after screening it for the group later, he decided that
too many people with little-to-no sense of humor were involved and didn't
try to market it. It actually made a nice 'B-Plot' to the regular story.

My actual problem with the novels is actually related to the way that
they're written and plotted more often than not. I agree with the general
opinion that I've seen expressed several times on the thread that the
characters and situations are occasionally too far removed from anything I'm
ever going to run to be of much use, but my real difficulty is the style
that to many of them seem to be written in. I find that I absolutely cannot
stand another Shadowrun novel where the writer sets up some big plot
originated by Dragons/Immortal Elves/Some Other Power Bloc to alter the
structure of the world - and then collapses the whole thing in the last
chapter because they aren't going to be allowed to alter the Shadowrun
Universe in that fashion. I honestly admit to skimming the books now and if
I see a *hint* of that in them - dropping them back on the shelf to be
thereafter ignored. It may be a personal thing, but frankly I'm just tired
unto death of it. Your mileage, of course, may vary.

Rob Hudson

Message no. 82 On 17 Jul 99, at 6:44, Bull wrote:

> My opinion is this:
>
> ALL sourcebooks should be cleared by the GM before being read. This
> includes the novels. There's a lot of info in there, even in books that
> aren't related to "major" SR events that honestly, I wish some people
> didn't know. Whether it "spoils" something or is just something I try and
> tone down or avoid allowing to happen my home campign, sometimes tehre are
> things you just don't want players to get into their heads to try and do,
> or be like, or to know.

Bull, this just goes right along with one thing I was saying in
my response to Jak's message. I believe that I'm a player that
can separate what the character knows from what the player
knows. Like I said in that post. I've put my character into
situations where I knew it wasn't gonna' be good, but my
character wouldn't have known any better. If players can do
that, then let 'em read the books/sourcebooks. They just have
a better grasp of the system and the "feel" of the world.

Granted. A lot of players probably don't do that.

---
Now will that be one thump or two?
-- Smilin' Jack, aiming his grenade launcher at the
oncoming Lone Star vehicle.

Raven,
Irish Elven Rigger with an Attitude

Excalibur
Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
http://sara.cas.nwu.edu/~arch/kos_rule.htm
UIN 1117228

Message no. 83 In a message dated 7/17/99 10:27:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
D.N.M.vanNederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl writes:

> Again I ask you: what's the difference between a sourcebook telling you
> "BTW, Dunkie killed himself. A few people found out and made it public"
> (OK, in the novel they didn't, but how could peoeple otherwise find out
> about it) or a novel (or series) doing so with a bonus that it has more
> than a few pages to give you the details? Not just a few lines as we got
> with Bug City - in a _sourcebook_!!! If you had other plans with Bug City,
> the sourcebook spoiled your campaign as much as a novel would have. Your
> campaign would've been as historically inaccurate as it was now.
>

The thing is, the sourcebooks never come out and tell you "Dunk killed
himself" nor would they. That's what Shadowtalk is for, to provide rumor and
doubt. Even in Bug City just who set off the tac nuke is never revealed,
though hinted at, and the KE raid again is never proved. The novel Burning
Bright gave these answers, though it came out along with Bug City and didn't
step on any events that occur after the sourcebook's timeline. In other
words, the novel complemented the events in Bug City, gave you the depth and
flavor you want from the SR novels, and did it all without intruding on the
GM's adventure ideas he takes from the sourcebook. It's possible to run an
accurate campaign BEFORE the sourcebook's timeline finish, so that you can
interact with the events of Kyle Teller and the KE hit team, yet that can be
done in a historically correct manner since the sourcebook and the novel came
out in unison.
With PoaD, the first DHS novel came out almost a full year after the
GMs had been using the book, effectively destroying any plots and
conspiracies they had created. Saying you can keep your campaign correct
historically just by not letting the players read the novels is false; the
novels still happen, they are still considered part of the the SR universe
(the official part, it should be noted), and your campaign has now become an
alternate universe one. Which is wrong. The novels only exist because of
the RPG, so the players and GMs of the game shouldn't have to conform to them.
And what other plans would you have had with Bug City? I don't know
of any GMs who run their campaigns ahead of FASA's current year and date as
of the last sourcebook, so that the next sourcebooks can be introduced
smoothly. So August 2055 came along, Bug City happened, and the GMs got to
use it. Even if you were running a game in Chicago, the events in Bug City
still had no problem happening, and might have instead spiced up a game with
such a huge, disturbing event.

-Twist

Message no. 84 Twist0059@***.com wrote:

> <SNIP>

Just out of curiosity, would you enjoy it if NONE of the major threads were
ever wrapped up? Because that's what is sounds like to me...

--
--Strago

The gene pool in the 21st century needs a deep cleaning. I am the chlorine.

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2++ !SR3 h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN++ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++ d+) gm+ M-

Message no. 85 > > <SNIP>
>
> Just out of curiosity, would you enjoy it if NONE of the
> major threads were
> ever wrapped up? Because that's what is sounds like to me...

Well, yes. As a GM I prefer a static universe that is just presented to me
and left for me to develop.

Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><
The Revolution will not be televised; it'll be emailed.
/.)\ Stop making sense. Be an Anti Intellectual
\(@/ Be Tao. Live Tao. Feel Tao. But don't do Tao.

Message no. 86 >The thing is, the sourcebooks never come out and tell you "Dunk killed
>himself" nor would they. That's what Shadowtalk is for, to provide
rumor and
>doubt.

I think I mostly agree with this.

>With PoaD, the first DHS novel came out almost a full year after the
>GMs had been using the book, effectively destroying any plots and
>conspiracies they had created. Saying you can keep your campaign
correct
>historically just by not letting the players read the novels is false;
the
>novels still happen, they are still considered part of the the SR
universe
>(the official part, it should be noted), and your campaign has now
become an
>alternate universe one. Which is wrong.

Whew... I just have to ask: why is it wrong? Why is it wrong to make
your own, alternate universe? After all, as I see it, making your
campaing an alternate one would be the solution for your problem ("the
official stuff, namely novels ruining your plots"). Why do you have to
stick to the official material like it was some holy grail?

- J. Karonen

Message no. 87 > > Just out of curiosity, would you enjoy it if NONE of the major threads
> > were ever wrapped up? Because that's what is sounds like to me...
>
> Well, yes. As a GM I prefer a static universe that is just presented to me
> and left for me to develop.

If you say so...personally, nothing would drive me crazier faster. I've
been role-playing for 25 years, and the worlds that I've enjoyed the most
(Marvel Super Heroes, DC Heroes, Star Trek, and Shadowrun) have been
dynamic, ever-changing worlds that grew and evolved outside of what I was
doing. I didn't always observe stated continuity in any of them, but I
preferred worlds that changed.

If you want a static universe, there's a lot of other games out there that
lend themselves to that. You might consider one of those, since you don't
seem to like the way things are happening and evolving in Shadowrun.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

Message no. 88 In a message dated 7/18/99 1:24:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jarmokaronen@***.fi writes:

> Whew... I just have to ask: why is it wrong? Why is it wrong to make
> your own, alternate universe? After all, as I see it, making your
> campaing an alternate one would be the solution for your problem ("the
> official stuff, namely novels ruining your plots"). Why do you have to
> stick to the official material like it was some holy grail?

While all campaigns are going to be unique to a certain extent, most people
will play in teh main universe. While it is fine to preface every new
development with "change it if you wish" all future products will assume that
event took place. For example, if I had set my campaign in Chicago, where
Dunkelzhan was the master mind behind a huge plot to bring the horrors
across, that is my prerogative. However, why buy anything new for shadowrun,
sinc ethey will be operating under a totally different set of parameters?
The products need to leave leeway for individual campaigns, if everything
comes down to "ignore this at will" than the GM is doing all the work, and
has no need to buy new stuff. (may seem like an extreme example but..)
While a developing universe is good, you need to keep major world altering
events in check. It is a given that you can ignore anything you want, but
eventually it just means you are ignoring everything.

Message no. 89 At 12:55 PM 7/18/99 , Arcady wrote:
> > > <SNIP>
> >
> > Just out of curiosity, would you enjoy it if NONE of the
> > major threads were
> > ever wrapped up? Because that's what is sounds like to me...
>
>Well, yes. As a GM I prefer a static universe that is just presented to me
>and left for me to develop.

I'm a GM of the other kind, in that I like a changing universe. If nothing
changes, the world becomes boring after a while, as nothing ever happens.
No plot threads ever come up, because nothing is ever being changed.

If you want a static universe, why not stick with the systems books (SR3,
VR2, MITS, etc) and don't buy the Target: books, and other things like that?
Sommers
Insert witty quote here.

Message no. 90 In a message dated 7/18/99 1:44:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, remo@***.net
writes:

> > > Just out of curiosity, would you enjoy it if NONE of the major threads
> > > were ever wrapped up? Because that's what is sounds like to me...
> >
> > Well, yes. As a GM I prefer a static universe that is just presented to
me
> > and left for me to develop.
>
> If you say so...personally, nothing would drive me crazier faster. I've
> been role-playing for 25 years, and the worlds that I've enjoyed the most
> (Marvel Super Heroes, DC Heroes, Star Trek, and Shadowrun) have been
> dynamic, ever-changing worlds that grew and evolved outside of what I was
> doing. I didn't always observe stated continuity in any of them, but I
> preferred worlds that changed.
>
> If you want a static universe, there's a lot of other games out there that
> lend themselves to that. You might consider one of those, since you don't
> seem to like the way things are happening and evolving in Shadowrun.

There is a huge difference between a universe where nothing ever happens and
one where the answers to the events are given to you. PoaD could easily
still have happened without the DHS, and then it would have at least been the
product it claimed to be, one that opened up the SR world to the players
instead of forcing them down a path of clearing away old plot threads (the
Enemy).

Also, please note that I did not write the line above that is highlighted.
It's important to remember who is commenting and who is being quoted.

-Twist

Message no. 91 > > > Just out of curiosity, would you enjoy it if NONE of the
> > > major threads were
> > > ever wrapped up? Because that's what is sounds like to me...
> >
> >Well, yes. As a GM I prefer a static universe that is just
> >presented to me and left for me to develop.
>
> I'm a GM of the other kind, in that I like a changing universe. If nothing
> changes, the world becomes boring after a while, as nothing ever happens.
> No plot threads ever come up, because nothing is ever being changed.
>
> If you want a static universe, why not stick with the systems books (SR3,
> VR2, MITS, etc) and don't buy the Target: books, and other things
> like that?

And if you want constant change; why not do it yourself?

The answer in both cases is that we want to know about the universe of
Shadowrun.

I too like a changing universe. I just want to be the one who's driving.

Arcady http://www.jps.net/arcady/ <0){{{{><
The Revolution will not be televised; it'll be emailed.
/.)\ Stop making sense. Be an Anti Intellectual
\(@/ Be Tao. Live Tao. Feel Tao. But don't do Tao.

Message no. 92 >From: Twist0059@***.com
>There is a huge difference between a universe where nothing ever happens
>and
>one where the answers to the events are given to you. PoaD could easily
>still have happened without the DHS, and then it would have at least been
>the
>product it claimed to be, one that opened up the SR world to the players
>instead of forcing them down a path of clearing away old plot threads (the
>Enemy).
>

I dunno Twist. I think that PoaD DID give a lot of new ideas, IMO. All DH
did was deal with the ED references. (That a lot of abbreviations. whew.
:D). There's still a lot there. You just have to look.

>Also, please note that I did not write the line above that is highlighted.
>It's important to remember who is commenting and who is being quoted.

No problem.

>-Twist
>

Geoff Haacke
"If you not part of the solution then you are part of the precipitate."
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."

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Message no. 93 In a message dated 7/19/99 12:11:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
knight_errant30@*******.com writes:

> >From: Twist0059@***.com
> >There is a huge difference between a universe where nothing ever happens
> >and
> >one where the answers to the events are given to you. PoaD could easily
> >still have happened without the DHS, and then it would have at least been
> >the
> >product it claimed to be, one that opened up the SR world to the players
> >instead of forcing them down a path of clearing away old plot threads (the
> >Enemy).
> >
>
> I dunno Twist. I think that PoaD DID give a lot of new ideas, IMO. All
DH
> did was deal with the ED references. (That a lot of abbreviations. whew.
> :D). There's still a lot there. You just have to look.

With the Will, GMs did have a lot of freedom to act, but the big event in
PoaD was Dunk's assassination, and GMs who tried to build a plot around it
got swatted down a year later with DHS. I still think Headhunters was a good
example of how to do an SR novel without intruding up the game. It involved
the Will, it connected to Dunk's death, yet it was soley the creation of Mel
Odom and so didn't step on any plot hooks the GM might be exploring. If
FASA has to come out and reveal the plot behind some event, at least they
could do it in an adventure like HB or Shadows of the Underworld with the
Yeats assassination so that the players remain driving the universe forward.

-Twist

Message no. 94 >From: Twist0059@***.com
>With the Will, GMs did have a lot of freedom to act, but the big event in
>PoaD was Dunk's assassination, and GMs who tried to build a plot around it
>got swatted down a year later with DHS. I still think Headhunters was a
>good
>example of how to do an SR novel without intruding up the game. It
>involved
>the Will, it connected to Dunk's death, yet it was soley the creation of
>Mel
>Odom and so didn't step on any plot hooks the GM might be exploring. If
>FASA has to come out and reveal the plot behind some event, at least they
>could do it in an adventure like HB or Shadows of the Underworld with the
>Yeats assassination so that the players remain driving the universe
>forward.
>

I suppose. I'm just used to my characters NOT being involved in the huge
events like investigating Dunk's death. From a character's point of view,
anyone who could cack the dragon would be someone to avoid at all costs. :)

>-Twist
>
>

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Message no. 95 Twist0059@***.com schrieb:

> In a message dated 7/17/99 10:27:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> D.N.M.vanNederveen@****.warande.ruu.nl writes:
>
> > Again I ask you: what's the difference between a sourcebook telling you
> > "BTW, Dunkie killed himself. A few people found out and made it
public"
> > (OK, in the novel they didn't, but how could peoeple otherwise find out
> > about it) or a novel (or series) doing so with a bonus that it has more
> > than a few pages to give you the details? Not just a few lines as we got
> > with Bug City - in a _sourcebook_!!! If you had other plans with Bug City,
> > the sourcebook spoiled your campaign as much as a novel would have. Your
> > campaign would've been as historically inaccurate as it was now.
> >
>
> The thing is, the sourcebooks never come out and tell you "Dunk killed
> himself" nor would they. That's what Shadowtalk is for, to provide rumor and
> doubt. Even in Bug City just who set off the tac nuke is never revealed,
> though hinted at, and the KE raid again is never proved. The novel Burning
> Bright gave these answers, though it came out along with Bug City and didn't
> step on any events that occur after the sourcebook's timeline. In other
> words, the novel complemented the events in Bug City, gave you the depth and
> flavor you want from the SR novels, and did it all without intruding on the
> GM's adventure ideas he takes from the sourcebook. It's possible to run an
> accurate campaign BEFORE the sourcebook's timeline finish, so that you can
> interact with the events of Kyle Teller and the KE hit team, yet that can be
> done in a historically correct manner since the sourcebook and the novel came
> out in unison.
> With PoaD, the first DHS novel came out almost a full year after the
> GMs had been using the book, effectively destroying any plots and
> conspiracies they had created. Saying you can keep your campaign correct
> historically just by not letting the players read the novels is false; the
> novels still happen, they are still considered part of the the SR universe
> (the official part, it should be noted), and your campaign has now become an
> alternate universe one. Which is wrong. The novels only exist because of
> the RPG, so the players and GMs of the game shouldn't have to conform to them.
> And what other plans would you have had with Bug City? I don't know
> of any GMs who run their campaigns ahead of FASA's current year and date as
> of the last sourcebook, so that the next sourcebooks can be introduced
> smoothly. So August 2055 came along, Bug City happened, and the GMs got to
> use it. Even if you were running a game in Chicago, the events in Bug City
> still had no problem happening, and might have instead spiced up a game with
> such a huge, disturbing event.
>
> -Twist

But the only things the official history of SR is influenced by the DHS novels is:

- the bridge is destroyed (so the GM�s can handle how much Earthdawn-Horrors they
want in their SR-World)
- Harlekin got his armor (from Dunky�s will)
- the blood mages of Aztechnology lost much of their support
- there is a very mighty ghost on the metaplane of the bridge

that�s all (I hope)!!!

And your runners can search the killer of Dunky for years, because
- no one told the publicity the truth
- and IMHO it�s not important who killed him

Arkane
(who apologize for spelling errors and bad grammar)

Message no. 96 > In a message dated 7/18/99 1:24:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> jarmokaronen@***.fi writes:
>
> > Whew... I just have to ask: why is it wrong? Why is it wrong to make
> > your own, alternate universe? After all, as I see it, making your
> > campaing an alternate one would be the solution for your problem ("the
> > official stuff, namely novels ruining your plots"). Why do you have to
> > stick to the official material like it was some holy grail?
>
> While all campaigns are going to be unique to a certain extent, most
> people
> will play in teh main universe. While it is fine to preface every new
> development with "change it if you wish" all future products will assume
> that
> event took place. For example, if I had set my campaign in Chicago, where
> Dunkelzhan was the master mind behind a huge plot to bring the horrors
> across, that is my prerogative. However, why buy anything new for
> shadowrun,
> sinc ethey will be operating under a totally different set of parameters?
> The products need to leave leeway for individual campaigns, if
> everything
> comes down to "ignore this at will" than the GM is doing all the work, and
>
> has no need to buy new stuff. (may seem like an extreme example but..)
> While a developing universe is good, you need to keep major world
> altering
> events in check. It is a given that you can ignore anything you want, but
> eventually it just means you are ignoring everything.
>
Again, why must I keep major world altering events in check? I don't really
see this as ignoring everything. For instance, if I run a low level ganger
type campaign in Seattle, I can interact with thousands of various runners,
gangers, corp powers, etc. and never touch anything FASA has published. In
fact, I did this for several years back in 1st. ed. As new sourcebooks came
out, they filled in the world a little more, provided detailed info on areas
left uncovered. As I read them, I incorporated them into the SR world, but
they still didn't affect my players.

Message no. 97 At 02:52 PM 7/19/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> In a message dated 7/18/99 1:24:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>> jarmokaronen@***.fi writes:
>> While all campaigns are going to be unique to a certain extent, most
>> people
>> will play in teh main universe. While it is fine to preface every new
>> development with "change it if you wish" all future products will
assume
>> that
>> event took place. For example, if I had set my campaign in Chicago, where
>> Dunkelzhan was the master mind behind a huge plot to bring the horrors
>> across, that is my prerogative. However, why buy anything new for
>> shadowrun,
>> sinc ethey will be operating under a totally different set of parameters?
>> The products need to leave leeway for individual campaigns, if
>> everything
>> comes down to "ignore this at will" than the GM is doing all the work,
and
>>
>> has no need to buy new stuff. (may seem like an extreme example but..)
>> While a developing universe is good, you need to keep major world
>> altering
>> events in check. It is a given that you can ignore anything you want, but
>> eventually it just means you are ignoring everything.
>>
>Again, why must I keep major world altering events in check? I don't really
>see this as ignoring everything. For instance, if I run a low level ganger
>type campaign in Seattle, I can interact with thousands of various runners,
>gangers, corp powers, etc. and never touch anything FASA has published. In
>fact, I did this for several years back in 1st. ed. As new sourcebooks came
>out, they filled in the world a little more, provided detailed info on areas
>left uncovered. As I read them, I incorporated them into the SR world, but
>they still didn't affect my players.

I get your point. I have in the past ran people through an 'alternate'
world, using the Shadowrun rules, but very little of the world. In the
long run, it is much more complicated and required a boatload more work on
the side of the GM.

On the other hand you can use the main rulebooks, and not the sourcebooks
nor the adventures, and have a great game, which is what I think you are
getting at.

To make it somewhat short, there is nothing to stop you. You are the GM.
Do what you want, and scr*w what other people think.

The Hamm

Message no. 98 In a message dated 7/25/99 4:04:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Arkane@***********.net writes:

> But the only things the official history of SR is influenced by the DHS
> novels is:
>
> - the bridge is destroyed (so the GM�s can handle how much
Earthdawn-Horrors
> they
> want in their SR-World)
> - Harlekin got his armor (from Dunky�s will)
> - the blood mages of Aztechnology lost much of their support
> - there is a very mighty ghost on the metaplane of the bridge

And they answered the whole point behind the assassination! Just that little
thing.

-Twist

Message no. 99 "Patrick Bierlein" <prbierlein@******.com> wrote:
>As for the next book... I can't wait to read it, though waiting a little

>over a year for it will take some will power. I can only hope more SR novels

>will be released until then. ^_^

I believe there are only three SR novels scheduled for next year: Lisa
Smedman's doing the first, I'm doing the second, and our own Mike Mulvihill
is scheduled to write the third. So I think the next SR novel won't be until
late this year or early 2001, sorry to say.

Steve Kenson

Talon Studio
http://members.aol.com/talonmail

Message no. 100 Hi,

I was wondering. Which Shadowrun Novels are the ones that really have some
very important events of the Shadowrun timeline. And/Or is fairly good
written.

Thanks for the info,
Pepe

__________________________________________________
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Message no. 101 Pepe wrote:

I was wondering. Which Shadowrun Novels are the ones that really have some
very important events of the Shadowrun timeline. And/Or is fairly good
written.
__________________________________________________

Hmm, just found this post. I'd like to see it resurected, cause I'm on an
SR novel collecting spree.

Burning Bright - Tom Dowd
Events surrounding Bug City and the start of the Chicago Containment Zone.

2XS - Nigel Findley
First novel with bugs in it (I think) Plus it's a really good book.

House of the sun - Nigel Findley
First novel with a mention of Horrors. (I think) Plus it's a really good
book.

Stranger Souls
Clockwork assylum
Beyond the pale (all by Jak Koke)Called the Dragonheart trilogy
Explains the events surrounding Dunkie's death. Hear they're good, dying to
read them asa I get my mits on the first one. (already got the last 2)

What else?

Message no. 102 All three of the dragon heart saga. (the truth behind Big D's death,
horrors, and look at blood mages, and Drakes)

>From: "Shannon Buys" <Shannon@*****.co.za>
>Reply-To: Shadowrun Discussion <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
>To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
>Subject: RE: Shadowrun Novels
>Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 15:07:15 +0200
>
>Pepe wrote:
>
>I was wondering. Which Shadowrun Novels are the ones that really have some
>very important events of the Shadowrun timeline. And/Or is fairly good
>written.
>__________________________________________________
>
>Hmm, just found this post. I'd like to see it resurected, cause I'm on an
>SR novel collecting spree.
>
>Burning Bright - Tom Dowd
>Events surrounding Bug City and the start of the Chicago Containment Zone.
>
>2XS - Nigel Findley
>First novel with bugs in it (I think) Plus it's a really good book.
>
>House of the sun - Nigel Findley
>First novel with a mention of Horrors. (I think) Plus it's a really good
>book.
>
>Stranger Souls
>Clockwork assylum
>Beyond the pale (all by Jak Koke)Called the Dragonheart trilogy
>Explains the events surrounding Dunkie's death. Hear they're good, dying
>to
>read them asa I get my mits on the first one. (already got the last 2)
>
>
>
>What else?

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Message no. 103 Good SR-novels?

Of course, the Secrets of Power triology. Very good written (the gErman translation at
least ;-), and one of it's parts covers Haesslich's death (IIRC).
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