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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Downtym)
Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
Date: Sat Sep 15 14:40:01 2001
As a more on topic question, how do other GM's out there deal with
Good and Evil in the world of Shadowrun? I tend to run my games pretty
realistically with good and evil most times not being clearly
defineable.

For example: Sure, the gangers just knocked over a bar and beat up the
barkeep, but they are teenagers and maybe they don't deserve to be
shot in the head for it.

Or maybe even: Can you honestly knock off the mafia don you've been
sent to kill without any feeling of compassion? How do you know he's
the absolute scum you're supposed to kill?

Or am I running the game a little to close to life's real edge. Do you
believe it's better to portray good and evil as absolutes, complete
black and white, or do you prefer to throw in the confusing and more
real shades of gray?

I find that the shades of gray make for some interesting roleplaying
situations, but tend to distract the players, myself. Sometimes we end
up with games that turn more into a moral and philosophical debate
about right and wrong. But, without the gray thrown in, I tend to get
a game that is more about running around putting as many holes as
possible into the bad guys.

If anyone's already covered this debate, could you send me a link or a
reference to read? I'd like to see what other people have said and
thought.

[Yes, I'm new here. I also apologize if you got a double message sent
to you earlier. Multiple instances of pine seems to result in the
process sending out multiple copies of the email. Hopefully it won't
happen again.]

Downtym |
Email: gte138j@*****.gatech.edu | Post no bills
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
Date: Sat Sep 15 15:05:01 2001
On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:38:09 -0400 (EDT)
Downtym <gte138j@*****.gatech.edu> wrote:

> As a more on topic question, how do other GM's out there deal with
> Good and Evil in the world of Shadowrun? I tend to run my games pretty
> realistically with good and evil most times not being clearly
> defineable.

I tend to run more with the shades of gray, but ocasionally there is a little
white or a little black here and there. There's some very subtle religious references in
my game's background, so absolute good and absolute evil do exist in the setting, but
since it's always "normal" people that occupy the center stage things always go
grey at some point.

Unfortunately, the players tend not to notice most of this :). I threw a plot
twist at them to make an NPC look like a villiain, and they ate it up completely. They're
now pursuing the fellow with all their might, while completely oblivious to the true story
behind the adventure :).

--
Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://www.shadowland.com.br
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.f2s.com
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
Date: Sat Sep 15 15:45:06 2001
> I tend to run more with the shades of gray, but ocasionally there
is a little white or a little black here and there. There's some very subtle
religious references in my game's background, so absolute good and absolute
evil do exist in the setting, but since it's always "normal" people that
occupy the center stage things always go grey at some point.
>
> Unfortunately, the players tend not to notice most of this :). I
threw a plot twist at them to make an NPC look like a villiain, and they ate
it up completely. They're now pursuing the fellow with all their might,
while completely oblivious to the true story behind the adventure :).
>

I have a run planned that touches right on this grey area. The runners are
hired by an oriental man claiming he wants damage done to a section of town
in vengance for a previous wrong done to his family by the owners of that
block.

Behind the scenes runners will never know he's a triad agent trying to start
trouble between the Yaks and the Mafia. Even if runners do a background
check they come up with a false story. The main deal is triads want in on
the Yakuza BTL chip factory held in one of the three buildings.

In the course of the run I expect alliances to drastically switch back and
forth depending on who the runners side with (Mafia, Yaks or just do a
straight job for the triads).

In this run its extremely hazy who's the antagonists and who will be the
victims since it's a run that pits the runners eventually comming at odds
with a criminal organization. Whichever of the three it might be I won't
know til I subject them to it :)

Evil GM at large :)
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
Date: Sat Sep 15 15:55:01 2001
On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 17:16:29 -0230
"Jonathan" <jhogan@**********.nf.net> wrote:

> >
> In this run its extremely hazy who's the antagonists and who will be the
> victims since it's a run that pits the runners eventually comming at odds
> with a criminal organization. Whichever of the three it might be I won't
> know til I subject them to it :)
>
> Evil GM at large :)

A most excelent plot, I must say. Please tell us how it turned out after you've
ran it. I'm curious :).


--
Bira -- SysOp da Shadowland.BR
http://www.shadowland.com.br
Redator de Shadowrun da RPG em Revista
http://www.rpgemrevista.f2s.com
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jonathan)
Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
Date: Sat Sep 15 16:05:01 2001
>
> A most excelent plot, I must say. Please tell us how it turned out
after you've ran it. I'm curious :).
>
well it won't be for a little while my current list of runs are like this:

1) A nice easy: Go in retrieve what the johnson wants and get out...then
have it stolen and get it back plot (with a hook for goody goody runners to
go chase an escaping insect spirit queen) from an order of physial adepts.

2) Will be this run I mentioned. It'll get thier feet wet somemore with more
indept problem solving.

3) My last planned run is one with alot of powerful stuff, cybermancy, NPC
runners, kidnapping/ransom, double cross and a building...ooo the building I
think is the most evil part of all :)

All this brought to them by the wonderful AD&D GM that sends level 1 players
against lichs :)
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (danzig138)
Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
Date: Sat Sep 15 18:30:08 2001
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-admin@*********.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.com]On Behalf Of Downtym
> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 1:38 PM
> To: shadowrn@*********.com
> Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
>
>
> As a more on topic question, how do other GM's out there deal with
> Good and Evil in the world of Shadowrun? I tend to run my games pretty
> realistically with good and evil most times not being clearly
> defineable.

For the most part, good and evil aren't that clearly defined in my games,
like the real world, most people are a little of both,
but I occasionally like to throw in the absolutes. The characters got
involved in the birth of the Anti-Christ. That was a pretty clear-cut
adventure.

Shades of grey, with the occasional bright light, or near blackness.

danzig138
---------
"Because there is good and there is evil, and evil must be punished.
Even in the face of Armageddon I shall not compromise in this"
-Rorschach (The Watchmen)
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wallace Blade)
Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
Date: Sat Sep 15 18:55:01 2001
Downtym said:
>As a more on topic question, how do other GM's out there deal with
>Good and Evil in the world of Shadowrun? I tend to run my games pretty
>realistically with good and evil most times not being clearly
>defineable.
>For example: Sure, the gangers just knocked over a bar and beat up the
>barkeep, but they are teenagers and maybe they don't deserve to be
>shot in the head for it.
>Or maybe even: Can you honestly knock off the mafia don you've been
>sent to kill without any feeling of compassion? How do you know he's
>the absolute scum you're supposed to kill?
>Or am I running the game a little to close to life's real edge. Do you
>believe it's better to portray good and evil as absolutes, complete
>black and white, or do you prefer to throw in the confusing and more
>real shades of gray?
>I find that the shades of gray make for some interesting roleplaying
>situations, but tend to distract the players, myself. Sometimes we end
>up with games that turn more into a moral and philosophical debate
>about right and wrong. But, without the gray thrown in, I tend to get
>a game that is more about running around putting as many holes as
>possible into the bad guys.
>If anyone's already covered this debate, could you send me a link or a
>reference to read? I'd like to see what other people have said and
>thought.

Well, I personally don't like black and white, so i try only to use grays. I
try to teach them how shadowrun's world is as we play, and I haven't seen
many whites or blacks in it. And, I guess a game is to have fun, and I
really enjoy a philosophical debate, so, if we get to it, I have no problem
about it. ;)

Wallace Blade
Sepherim (Dagger in sperethiel)
"The Matrix was made to serve,
but only obeys those of us that love her."
Nodo 666: http://www16.brinkster.com/sepherim


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Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wallace Blade)
Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
Date: Sat Sep 15 19:10:01 2001
Bira said:
> Unfortunately, the players tend not to notice most of >this :). I
>threw a plot twist at them to make an NPC look like a >villiain, and they
>ate it up completely. They're now pursuing the >fellow with all their
>might, while completely oblivious to the true >story behind the adventure
>:).

Yeap, that happens to me too. Guess that's how the world goes, all behind
the scenes. ;)

Wallace Blade
Sepherim (Dagger in sperethiel)
"The Matrix was made to serve,
but only obeys those of us that love her."
Nodo 666: http://www16.brinkster.com/sepherim



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Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
Date: Mon Sep 17 08:20:01 2001
Downtym writes:

> As a more on topic question, how do other GM's out there deal with
> Good and Evil in the world of Shadowrun? I tend to run my games pretty
> realistically with good and evil most times not being clearly
> defineable.

<grin> I get the impression from the responses to this already, and the
posts that prompted your query, that it would appear people's SR games may
well be more 'grey' than their own personal outlook on things...

I, too, keep my game rather indeterminate. I would not call either the
players nor their opponents either the good guys nor the bad guys. They are
both good in some ways, and bad in some ways.

Occasionally it's nice to have more 'black and white' games (maybe it's a
falling back to those DnD days? ;-)), and these often seem to manifest in,
for example, bug runs. It's pretty easy to band together against a common
foe like bugs - you come out looking like the good guys no matter how you
deal with them.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
Date: Mon Sep 17 10:00:02 2001
At 02:38 PM 9/15/2001 -0400, Downtym wrote:
>As a more on topic question, how do other GM's out there deal with
>Good and Evil in the world of Shadowrun? I tend to run my games pretty
>realistically with good and evil most times not being clearly
>defineable.

I don't try to define anything as good or evil.

In my game all of my NPCs have motivations, and every action has a
reasonable consequence.

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
--
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Downtym)
Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
Date: Mon Sep 17 14:55:01 2001
On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, Damion Milliken wrote:

> Occasionally it's nice to have more 'black and white' games (maybe it's a
> falling back to those DnD days? ;-)), and these often seem to manifest in,
> for example, bug runs. It's pretty easy to band together against a common
> foe like bugs - you come out looking like the good guys no matter how you
> deal with them.

Actually, I often wonder what causes Shadowrun to spawn such
philosophical debates. You don't usually get those when playing D&D
and you wade your way through kobolds. Shadowrun can often be as
combat heavy as D&D (Sometimes much more, especially when it comes to
using grenades, missiles, assault rifles, etc), but you just don't get
the philosophical debates you get in Shadowrun in D&D.

Is it because the focus of D&D is usually fighting "monsters" -
creatures that are just not human - where as in Shadowrun you're
fighting human opponets?

Anyway, I was left wondering if some people had examples of clear cut,
"black and white" campaigns they had done in the past and where their
runners ended up (Either in the black or the white)?

I'm currently running some D&D players through their first Shadowrun
adventure and they haven't even glanced twice to second guess the
moral decisions of their actions. But whereas in D&D, that would
normally be okay, in Shadowrun it's going to get them in a lot of
trouble. As I go through this process of making the game for them, I
wonder if it is something more on the GM's side, the player's side, or
if it is just a function of the different genres of the game.

Also, has anyone got a simple, compiled chart of the SR3 + Matrix
decker stuff? I'm really looking for a reference card that lists the
"System Operations" on one side, utilities on the other, some short
cut and quick definitions for rolls and other things. Basically,
something portable for the decker who needs to know it all. ;-)

If anyone has done this, using the SR3 + Matrix rulesets, can you toss
a copy my way before I spend all night working on it myself? :-)

Downtym |
Email: gte138j@*****.gatech.edu | Post no bills
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane VR)
Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
Date: Mon Sep 17 20:55:01 2001
>From: Downtym <gte138j@*****.gatech.edu>

>Actually, I often wonder what causes Shadowrun to spawn such
>philosophical debates. You don't usually get those when playing D&D
>and you wade your way through kobolds. Shadowrun can often be as
>combat heavy as D&D (Sometimes much more, especially when it comes to
>using grenades, missiles, assault rifles, etc), but you just don't get
>the philosophical debates you get in Shadowrun in D&D.

My experience is the opposite. In D&D, you have an alignment that you are
supposed to stick to. Our DM was running a 'Monsters are People Too'
campaign, where, for example, it turns out the hill giants are attacking the
town because the local lord is collecting 100 hill giant heads to make a
'girdle of giant strength'. What is the correct response for a Chaotic Good
character? And then the arguments when a god orders the party cleric to kill
someone the rest of the party thinks is good. And paladins, are they allowed
to, or supposed to, kill evil creatures who have surrendered or otherwise
cooperated with the party?

One of the things I am enjoying about Shadowrun is that it's not good vs.
evil, or only rarely. One of my players wanted to play a Good, paladin type
and I told him I didn't know if it would be a playable character. How can
you be Good when you kill people for a living?


Jane

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Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (shadowrn@*********.com)
Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
Date: Tue Sep 18 05:40:04 2001
On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, Downtym wrote:

>
> If anyone has done this, using the SR3 + Matrix rulesets, can you toss
> a copy my way before I spend all night working on it myself? :-)
>
> Downtym |

if you get this done, I think a lot of people would find it usefull,
myself included - perhaps it could go up on a webpage? one of the
dumpshock group would probably be happy to host it for you, I think?
guys?


--
john@*****.net
"You can't uninstall evil." -Tycho Brahe
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Holly Feray)
Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
Date: Tue Sep 18 13:30:01 2001
> and I told him I didn't know if it would be a playable character.
> How can
> you be Good when you kill people for a living?


I have played a raccoon shaman that would not kill. It was not her way.
She ran away a lot or ducked behind the Troll. She was really fantastic
at deception and out thinking her opponents. That does not mean that she
did not fight when she had to or shoot narcojet or DMSO/appropriate drug
laced bullets or gas. Lots of phys ads can get in a fist fight without
killing. You can beat the snot out of some thing and get away. Most
NPCs are happy to have lost and survived and when they were pissed they
got injured the rest of the team always looked out for their own.

Holly
>
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Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane VR)
Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
Date: Tue Sep 18 19:00:01 2001
>I have played a raccoon shaman that would not kill. It was not her way.
>She ran away a lot or ducked behind the Troll. She was really fantastic
>at deception and out thinking her opponents. That does not mean that she
>did not fight when she had to or shoot narcojet or DMSO/appropriate drug
>laced bullets or gas. Lots of phys ads can get in a fist fight without
>killing. You can beat the snot out of some thing and get away. Most
>NPCs are happy to have lost and survived and when they were pissed they
>got injured the rest of the team always looked out for their own.


Hi Holly,

I didn't really mean that no one could ever play a good character in
Shadowrun. There are, as you point out, lots of non-lethal options. But we
have just started playing SR, and are completely unfamiliar with the rules,
the world etc. Under those circumstances, I thought that playing a 'good'
character would be making his life very hard.

I think there are other aspects than just 'not killing' to being a good
person. Assuming you can justify the stealing and property damage because
your target is an evil megacorp, you would want to be pretty choosy about
your runs and shadowrunners don't always know the full story. Also, not
killing anyone yourself, while hiding behind someone who does the killing
for you is a bit questionable IMO.

I think it would work best if the character was either very naive, or
kidding themselves, or had some cause they believed in that justified their
actions. But just the whole idea of living your life by making other
people's life harder, is not really 'good', the way I think of good, anyway.

Jane

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Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Holly Feray)
Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
Date: Thu Sep 20 16:25:01 2001
>
> I didn't really mean that no one could ever play a good character in
>
> Shadowrun. There are, as you point out, lots of non-lethal options. But
we
> have just started playing SR, and are completely unfamiliar with the
rules,
> the world etc. Under those circumstances, I thought that playing a
'good'
> character would be making his life very hard.
> I think there are other aspects than just 'not killing' to being a
good
> person. Assuming you can justify the stealing and property damage
because
> your target is an evil megacorp, you would want to be pretty choosy
about
> your runs and shadowrunners don't always know the full story. Also,
not
> killing anyone yourself, while hiding behind someone who does the
killing for you is a bit questionable IMO.
> I think it would work best if the character was either very naive, or
> kidding themselves, or had some cause they believed in that justified
their
> actions. But just the whole idea of living your life by making other
> people's life harder, is not really 'good', the way I think of good,
> anyway.


Jane it is a game that allows you to expand your consciousness and
perceptions by walking in other peoples shoes whether they are real or
not. Good for many people is perceptually based. SR can be about being
as good as possible given the circumstances or as bad. Justification is
not always necessary as to why individual runners choose to do something,
those type of things generally are revealed after long game play. In SR
one of the best safeties a lot of the time is to know as little as
possible. A runner should know enough to get the job done and survive to
run another day and not much else, they live longer that way usually.
Your real world good need not be dragged into the gray world of SR.
Killing in self defense is seen by many as necessary, stealing for
survival by many is acceptable, beating people of in defense of one's own
is also acceptable by many a person, especially in SR, a game, to be
played as a game. Your reality is one seemingly untouched by the harsher
realities and SR allows people in their varied degrees of clean living
realities to walk across the track in the game world and pick up a gun
and use it to see how the other half lives.

Holly
Pit of the Sith supplementary game suggestions available here
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Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
Date: Thu Sep 20 21:50:02 2001
<snipt!(TM)>
> Jane it is a game that allows you to expand your
consciousness and perceptions by walking in other
peoples shoes whether they are real or not. Good for
many people is perceptually based. SR can be about
being as good as possible given the circumstances or
as bad.
<snipt!(TM)>
> Holly

Holly, listen to what the girl is saying.

You're right, Shadowrun is a game of shades -
personally, I like to play characters with a number of
non-lethal options (and then I have the soulless
assassins, too...), but that's not what Jane was
talking about.

What Jane was saying is she's got a player, completely
new to Shadowrun, but an old hand at D&D, who wants to
play a character with the moral outlook of a Paladin.
That's not relative, or grey shade. That's purely
black and white - and that WILL cause problems in your
average SR game. It could be fun to explore, sure, but
these guys are still learning the system - they've got
enough on their plates as it is.

Hey, Jane, mind if I ask who's the goody-two-shoes?
That has victimisation potential, if you ask me. ;)

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane VR)
Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
Date: Fri Sep 21 02:30:00 2001
>
>Holly, listen to what the girl is saying.

I thought she was agreeing with me - Shadowrun is shades of grey, but you
could play a Good character if you really wanted to.

>Hey, Jane, mind if I ask who's the goody-two-shoes?
>That has victimisation potential, if you ask me. ;)


Hey, no picking on the newbies!

Look at the characters, their skills and abilities, it shouldn't be too hard
to work out ;).

Jane

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Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
Date: Fri Sep 21 03:50:01 2001
> >Holly, listen to what the girl is saying.
>
> I thought she was agreeing with me - Shadowrun is
shades of grey, but you could play a Good character if
you really wanted to.

Mmm...yes and no. I think I should leave that alone,
though. Friday afternoon and all...I tend to get a bit
worked up. ;)

> >Hey, Jane, mind if I ask who's the goody-two-shoes?
That has victimisation potential, if you ask me. ;)
>
> Hey, no picking on the newbies!

Awww!

;)

> Look at the characters, their skills and abilities,
it shouldn't be too hard to work out ;).
> Jane

Well, maybe if I was the GM. ;)

I've got my suspicions, though...

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what the DOC' is COOKING!!!

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Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wallace Blade)
Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
Date: Sun Sep 23 18:40:01 2001
Damion Milliken said:
>Occasionally it's nice to have more 'black and white' games (maybe it's a
>falling back to those DnD days? ;-)), and these often seem to manifest in,
>for example, bug runs. It's pretty easy to band together against a common
>foe like bugs - you come out looking like the good guys no matter how you
>deal with them.

Well, even in a run like this, you could throw the shades of grey in it,
just by showing what the point of view of the shaman is. It ain't going to
be as grey as other times, but it still won't be a black-white run.

Wallace Blade
Sepherim (Dagger in sperethiel)
"The Matrix was made to serve,
but only obeys those of us that love her."
Nodo 666: http://www16.brinkster.com/sepherim


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Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wallace Blade)
Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
Date: Sun Sep 23 19:05:03 2001
Jane VR said:
>I didn't really mean that no one could ever play a good character in
>Shadowrun. There are, as you point out, lots of non-lethal options. But we
>have just started playing SR, and are completely unfamiliar with the rules,
>the world etc. Under those circumstances, I thought that playing a 'good'
>character would be making his life very hard.
>
>I think there are other aspects than just 'not killing' to being a good
>person. Assuming you can justify the stealing and property damage because
>your target is an evil megacorp, you would want to be pretty choosy about
>your runs and shadowrunners don't always know the full story. Also, not
>killing anyone yourself, while hiding behind someone who does the killing
>for you is a bit questionable IMO.
>
>I think it would work best if the character was either very naive, or
>kidding themselves, or had some cause they believed in that justified their
>actions. But just the whole idea of living your life by making other
>people's life harder, is not really 'good', the way I think of good,
>anyway.

There is also another possibility: choosing carefully what runs you go into.
You could only handle bodyguards, or finding somone or something thats been
taken or is missing. This could be thought as "good guy's runs", so they
could be the good ones. Still, I believe the world is just too shady to be
good or bad. The Sixth World is normally not very moral, so...

Wallace Blade
Sepherim (Dagger in sperethiel)
"The Matrix was made to serve,
but only obeys those of us that love her."
Nodo 666: http://www16.brinkster.com/sepherim


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Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Wallace Blade)
Subject: [Shadowrun] On the subject of good and evil
Date: Sun Sep 23 20:20:01 2001
Holly said:
>Jane it is a game that allows you to expand your consciousness and
>perceptions by walking in other peoples shoes whether they are real or
>not. Good for many people is perceptually based. SR can be about being
>as good as possible given the circumstances or as bad. Justification is
>not always necessary as to why individual runners choose to do something,
>those type of things generally are revealed after long game play. In SR
>one of the best safeties a lot of the time is to know as little as
>possible. A runner should know enough to get the job done and survive to
>run another day and not much else, they live longer that way usually.
>Your real world good need not be dragged into the gray world of SR.
>Killing in self defense is seen by many as necessary, stealing for
>survival by many is acceptable, beating people of in defense of one's own
>is also acceptable by many a person, especially in SR, a game, to be
>played as a game. Your reality is one seemingly untouched by the harsher
>realities and SR allows people in their varied degrees of clean living
>realities to walk across the track in the game world and pick up a gun
>and use it to see how the other half lives.

Yeap, taht's what I meant when I said the Sixth World ain't moral. I'm
afraid I explained wrongly, but Holly just did it perfect, thanks!

Wallace Blade
Sepherim (Dagger in sperethiel)
"The Matrix was made to serve,
but only obeys those of us that love her."
Nodo 666: http://www16.brinkster.com/sepherim


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Thwap!